How much difference does a phono preamp really make?

OP here. I haven't checked in on this thread in a while. Quick update, I purchased a used Herron VTPH-1 for about $1k that I've been very happy with. However, since I purchased a Lumin T2 I don't find myself spinning much vinyl lately. That's a whole separate discussion! ;)

When you get a truly great high resolution system you will hear the difference.With a mediocre system you won’t hear much difference so UPGRADE ASAP!!

The front end of the system is where you really have to get things right. It makes no difference how good your amps and speakers are, if the phono section isn't right (along with the turntable/cartridge itself) there's no way you can make up for that downstream.

I did not notice much difference between phono preamps and cartridges until I had much better amp, preamp, and speakers. 

So, cartridge is important, phono preamp is important, as many people said, but if the rest are not as revealing, upgrading cartridge or phono preamp won't do much improvement to the overall sound.

“Get the pro-ject tube box ds2...it has an abundance of settings right there on the front panel for both mc and mm...in addition, you can run 2 turntables at a time. It has received numerous positive, some glowing, reviews and it has tubes, 12ax7's”

The ds2 tube phono preamp is a great value and sounds great with the right tubes, although stock tubes aren’t too bad. After much tube rolling, the Baldwin(Raytheon) 1960 or 1961 yellow labeled, black plate tubes were far and away the best sounding tubes in that phono pre. I tried 1959 Baldwins in the DS2 and they sounded excellent too, but the 1960/61 tubes had a slightly better sound overall.
I now have the EAT Petit phono preamp and it’s even better ( less grain, a touch more tonality)but the 1960 Baldwins weren’t great in it. The 1959 versions are fantastic in it and it now easily competes with my Modwright PH9.0X phono pre and that’s saying a lot! 

Get the pro-ject tube box ds2...it has an abundance of settings right there on the front panel for both mc and mm...in addition, you can run 2 turntables at a time. It has received numerous positive, some glowing, reviews and it has tubes, 12ax7's....

Assuming your cartridge is decent enough, I would get a well reviewed and revered phono stage that’s within your budget that allows that cartridge to be all it can be. If at that time you sense that it could be better, upgrade your cartridge. Since owning turntables and associated gear since the 70s, I’ve adapted the ability to tell if the cartridge is the limiting factor vs the phono stage and vice versa.

Don't mean to highjack but i can add I can't tell the difference in phono preamps either.

A quality phono stage is essential to the proper functioning of any high end vinyl analog system.

+1 for Sutherland

There are always going to be wide differences in experiences and opinions in the methods used to produce a Vinyl Chain in a system. 

Individuals who are enthusiasts and prioritise the use of Vinyl LP Media, can have accumulated multiple years of usage and replays of Vinyl,  along with a accumulation of experiences of using different ancillaries to create an experience that is satisfying and to their unique preferences. 

Myself and some others have come through times when options on Ancillaries were vast and quite affordable.
The period in the 90's when Vinyl ancillaries were looking like disposable items, and the Used Sales Ad's were commonly seen with the recently produced items selling for extreme reductions.  

The variations I have seen in a Vinyl Front End and down stream set ups, has been of interest to myself, and one area of choices being made,
I have noted on numerous occasions, is how many individuals I have been fortunate to have met and have become friends with, have been users of different TT's Models with different motor drives, different modifications,  and the use of differing Plinth Materials and Designs.

Then there is the differences in the selection of a Tonearm and the use of a Tonearm, some will not settle for one Tonearm, additional options must be catered for, and methods to mount more than one model will be produced.

Then there is the use of a Cartridge, putting MM, MI or MC to the side,
some owners are with a vast collection of Cartridges and like to have a few mounted in a Head shell ready to go, (some are also only used mounted on a particular type of Head Shell) and others like myself stick close to one favoured model, and may have a substitute Cartridge to assist with increasing the longevity of usable life of the most preferred Cartridge. 

From my experiences gathered, I am not at any time, meeting with others who have an identical set up, they genuinely vary quite vastly and are occasionally seen as a reasonably close in a match, for the Front End ancillaries that are Selected.
If down stream from the Source is added into the permutations then I have not met with anybody doing similar things with their choices to produce a Vinyl Chain in a system.
The choices selected for SUT/Head Amp > Phonostage > Amplification > Speakers is always different. 

The OP is sharing in a likeminded enthusiasm for producing a Vinyl Chain in their system.
When the discovery is finally made of their preferred Set Up, it will again once more be most likely that it will be unique to their wants and not many will be discovered to be reciprocating/ mimicking the permutations of the choices made for the ancillaries that are in use.   

The OP has decided he has to spend monies to discover a presentation that is perceived as beyond the performance available at present.
The question of how much budget should be allocated is commonly going to be met with contentious debate.
Most importantly in most cases, monies have to conform to a Budget, and achieving the best value for the allocated monies, has to be the priority.
In my view the best value is not the item acquired at the best price, but the item acquired, is proving to be a highly satisfying inclusion to the system.  

A Cartridge is already acquired, and this route has been reported as worthwhile and quite satisfying.
This Cartridge would be best allowed to have approx' 100 Hours of user time to allow it to settle in, then the value it is offering will be realised when used in the system as is.   

Will buying a Phonostage without any prior experience of the ancillary, allow the New Cartridge when 'settled in' to really show of its capability ?

Demo's of another ancillary in the system such as a Phonostage is looking like a practice worth pursuing.      

I would recommend adding Sutherland to your list of phono stages. Dead quiet solid state. He has 2 models that list for $1400. It is all he does and has lots of models at diffferent price points that do different things. One is meant for very low output MCs that has 0 load which recently was introduced, the TZ Vibe, and the one I own, the Insight, which is very flexible with 5-6 different load options that can handle all types of cartridges. It can be ordered with an optional Linear Power Supply which I recommend, and after a typical 15% discount would come in around $1500. I was lucky to find one used and did the power supply upgrade myself with Ron Sutherland’s help, who by the way is a great guy.

@tomic601 you are too kind, but thank you! Some others here have far more experience and know-how than I ever will! Though I'll surely keep being an analog enthusiast to my dying day. 

add Croft RIAA to your list, with a few nice tubes from Andy at Vintage Tube services, with your cart will knock your socks off….and meet your budget of $1,500

There is one in here somewhere……

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7106

to the OP, this is a great thread with some very solid experience and as you noted diversity of opinions. Personally i believe given a competent table and arm, cart matters most. The TT you have IMO on an isolating base like an HRS can take you far on the vinyl journey…very far. I have a Herron that i use with Vandy Treo CT, but feel you should consider the Hagerman. Also, super important you join the Vandy owners forum on the Vandy website. Lots of analog nuts there. You can see my vintage setup on the virtual systems page, every now and then a pair of 1ci make it into the mix, they are capable of amazing sound. Finally @mulveling should be on your sane, experienced and trusted list here on Audiogon

have fun

+1 @ozzy62 

If your cartridge is NOT good enough, it will not make a difference.

If your cartridge IS good enough, any phono amp over $1000 will NOT make a difference. You will not hear any difference.

Spend about $1000 MAX for a cartridge and maybe at most another $500 MAX for your phono amp and you will be set.

@cakyol 3
I had to read this twice to make sure I didn't misinterpret. Then I just about fell off the chair. I'm sure you were fooling with us, but please come back and confirm, lest we think otherwise. 

Quick update: This thread generated a lot of interesting discussion for me. Some felt that upgrading the phono pre in my system was a greater priority and others felt the cartridge was. 

My take away was that SQ could be vastly improved by upgrading BOTH. So I decided to plunk down $$ for an AT VM760SLC. Wow!!! Vastly superior to the Denon DL110 and Clearaudio Performer carts. Just on another level. I think the treble is just a tad tipped up but I think I can live with it. 

Next is phonostage. I want to keep my spend around $1,500. What to get?  I've been taking a look at:

1. Used Manley Chinook for around $1,400.
2. Gold Note PH-10 new for around $1,600.
3. Rogue Ares used around $1,200.

I've heard nothing but good things about the Herron but he is not producing phono pre's any more at this point.

Any opinions about these choices, their SQ, and current compatibility? 

For reference I'm using:

Technics SL1200GR TT
Audioquest Big Sur phono IC's
Audioquest Yukon IC's between preamp and monos
Consonance PM6 phono pre
Belles Aria preamp
Belles Aria mono blocks
Vandersteen 1ci speakers (would love to upgrade to Treo CT's some day)

Thanks,
Joe

I have not used a New Phonostage in my system that has not benefitted from a Extended Period of use.
Approximately 100 Hours of usage for a New Built Device seems to be  the point at which the Phonostage will come on song and appear to separate itself with a perception of a noticeable improvement from recollection of the previous time in use.

I personally feel even more time of usage will show a slightly more improved sound, maintaining a regualr use and keeping oneself familiar with the presentation, will be enough to reveal these later shift in noticeable changes to the Sound Quality.

If a Phonostage is heard as a New Phonostage and offers a impression that is a wanted experience, then the liklihood is that after a Period of usage the Good Impressions already made, will become even more substantial.

I am in a habit of inquiring how many Hours the Phonostage has been in use for when I discover a presentation that is to my preferences.

Something Similar happened during 2019/2020 with a Cartridge I had rebuilt.
It was initially compared with very few Hours of usage to Two other Cartridges from the same Brand in a friends System.
The Comparisons were able to be undertaken using the Same TT> Tonearm  > Head Shells.
The Two Cartridges had 100ish Hours and 300ish Hours of usage.
My Cartridge was brought back to be compared at approx' 50 Hours,
100 Hours, 200 Hours and 300 Hours.
At the visit with the 200 Hours of usage my Cartridge was very noticeably inproved during the comaparison and One Cartridge was sounding a Lesser Performing Cartridge and the other Cartridge, which was a Top of the Range from the Model Range during its time of production was being very closely matched in the Performances with my own Cartridge.

Both Cartridges have not changed in any noticeable measure since the 200 Hour usage comparison.

Maybe not in all cases, but it is worth inquiring about the Hours of usage when a Cartridge is being auditioned, as there will be a time when it is heard at it Prime, especially when the Cartridge has received a
100+ Hours of usage.          

IMHO - the order of importance in SQ is arm (properly matched to a table), cartridge/phono stage (matched properly), turntable. Up until just last year, I didn't even know a phono stage outside of the one that came with my integrated amp (which is an excellent Plinius) could be a huge improvement. After all, it had a switch from MM to MC, and when I got a very nice van den Hul MC I switched it and it sounded fine. It didn't become apparent until I began contemplating a maintenance for the cartridge that a trusted dealer said to get an external phono stage before addressing the cartridge. What an improvement! (Only second to upgrading the arm the previous year). I previously thought the only people who needed a phono stage were those with preamps or integrated with no phono selection option, and for less expensive systems like mine was, it was right.

I also almost doubled my total stereo investment during that 2 year period (upgraded the table to match the arm, getting the Linear power supply for the phono stage, vibration control for the table). Everything does matter, and you want to fix the weakest link at any time, but sometimes that is not clearly evident, or maybe one part is more $$ than you want to spend at that time. If I did mine in a different order, it wouldn't have been a big deal as long as I got the proper part when I did it. So, if you do one before the other, it's not a big deal, but try to get a sufficient enough improvement so you don't have to upgrade that part again before getting to everything else you want to improve.

I like the arm and table from the same manufacturer or made for that table, a direct wire/cable from the cartridge output to the phono stage input to eliminate connector plugs, and integrated amps (less interconnect cables once again) versus separates. Also make sure the cartridge isn't too heavy or light for the arm.

So if you are hell bent on keeping that table (I like Regas for tables under $3000) get a cartridge and phono stage if you want to spend a couple thousand or more. If not, consider a new table first. It probably won't cost much if you trade your in (unlike cartridges which are worth very little used) and can last you a very long time.

Last year I built a Pearl 2, a diy phono pre by Pass Labs designer Wayne  Colburn. At first I was disappointed. Things didn’t sound much different from the built-in phono input on my Rogue Sphinx 2. But keep listening. I realized the Rogue was very good, but also what I decided was merely “pleasant.” The Pass pre looked deeper into the music. The background was blacker, with less surface noise. So there were details coming through that weren’t immediately apparent. And that’s what you’re likely to experience, I would guess. To blather on, I think you’ll find something similar with cartridges. There are very good, relatively inexpensive carts like the Ortofon 2M Red and Blue or the AT95 family. Or the Denon, which I know only by reputation. Paired with a phono stage compatible with their signal output, they do a good job at a great price. I’m currently happy with a low-output (1 mV) Grado Opus3 MI cart through my Pearl 2 pre (55 dB gain in standard build). I plan to try an MC cart, but haven’t yet because I’m inclined to agree that it’s not worth buying a cheap MC cart. I’m sure I’ll spring for a good one when I’m feeling flush.

I've got a Technics SL-1200G with a Clearaudio Charisma MM cartridge, and it sounds amazing through my Herron Audio tube phono-stage - yes, it can make an immense difference.

A good phono stage will make more difference, according to your tastes, then typically power cords or interconnects but whether it's worth it to you is up to you.
 I was using a Levinson 32 photos stage and liked it a lot but started using Transformers and/or Nagra VPS.  But ultimately settled on my current luxman EQ 500 because it just sounded more musical to me, Was very flexible, and dead quiet.

Straight to your question, huge difference. 

Many Phonostages share similar Topologies and when Demonstrations are carried out where a comparison is available, even if for a limititation of the time allocated for each Demonstration.

It can soon become quite evident that a selection of Phonostages sound very Similar, especially in SS to SS  and Valve/Hybrid to Valve Hybrid Comparisons.

At Bake Off's I have attended, a £300  - £600 SS DIY Build, where a large proportion of the costings is seen in the casing and casing attachments, and where a Builder will inform the audience that they had discarded a large selection of components for matching purposes, that has added to the cost,  have been witnessed to fit comfortably into the SS Category of up to £4000.

My own experience is that I have preferred the DIY Models over 
Branded Models Demonstrations costing upto £3000ish, as well as think that some are almost parity in their performances.

Branded Phonostages I have heard that are approaching the Higher £3000's can usually be seen to deliver a much improved performance and separate themselves from the Line Up.
I would think this has got quite a bit to do with the Designers 'Know How'.   
How these Perceptions would unraval, if extended listening was carried out in the Home System will also produce different assessments of the comparisons.

As said it is all about the ears as the tool to discover a preferential presentation.

Theoretical options are interesting and means a lot but practical experience is much more relevant and has more value. I used to have DL-110 about 3 years ago and paired it with Parasound JC3 Jr and Rogue Audio Ares. I didn’t really liked the cart, find it pretty average sounding with no dedicated personality. The compiration of two phono stages with DL-110 was definitely in favor of Ares. It was noticeable upgrade in SQ. The Ares has pretty firm place in my system due to its flexibility and exceptional sound signature.  

A good phono stage is a wonderful upgrade but with a great one the magic happens on any good recording and you do not have to spend a lot to get a great one.

The Ypsilon phono stage costs $30,000 and provides only 39 db of gain with a fixed input impedance. It sounds fantastic but price and flexibility do not go hand in hand in the current market.

Hi @audionoobie 
I have been a Phonostage Enthusiast and Obsessive for far too many years, where the over interest has encouraged myself to have spent more time experiencing them than any other Device in my system.
This is a undertaking that is still with me, and COVID Travel Restrictions Impacted on most noticeably, when it come to my particiapation with the social side of HiFi .

I can not put a figure on how many Phonostages I have auditioned over the years, and my interest has not wained.
Very recently, now there are new freedoms to be exploited, I was with a group of friends auditioning one of the groups selection of ancillary devices that they have, to be used in conjuction with Phonostages.
On this occasion there have been Two Phonostages, in use, along with SUT's, Head Amp's and a Deguassing Device, to attempt to keep all Demonstrations carried out with the fairest of play times for each comparison.   
On this occasion there was a Debut within the Group of a very respected and reasonably well known Brands High Level Solid State Phonostage Model, using the Built in MC Stage and the other ancillaries.

This Debut was carried out as a Comparison along side a Bespoke Built all Valve Phonostage, using a SP10R, Glanz 12" Arm and a Miyajima Cartridge.
Due to Lockdown, this was my long overdue and first encounter with the TT Set Up.
In the above case all the auditions left very indelible memories, where the impression is very positive, and is a reminder of the bar that can be set for a Vinyl Front End.
Each Phonostage shared traits that were similar, but there was an overall separation in the Presentation, where one was Fleet Footed and offered an air of precision and control.
The other took the music on and showed a Tremdous Presence with ethereal room filling Voluminous Sound.

Prior to this meeting, I was keen to get on the road and meet a fellow enthusiast.
To achieve this I carried out a 200 Mile round trip, to visit a good friends home, and was listening to their own Bespoke Built Phonostage Design.
This was not a comparison, it was a update on a Demonstration of a evolved design I was becoming familiar with prior to the Lockdown.
The TT in use was a completely Over Hauled SP10 MkII.
This updated demonstration was quite phenominal, and left me with goosebumps.
I was greatly impressed, and am very keen to hear this Phonostage on my home system.

'In a nutshell' a Phonostage can quite easily make or break a system,
in relation to how it can produce a performance that leaves a very positive impression.
The effect that the use of can have on a individual, will only be understood by being in the Company of one, preferably being used on the Home System .
Most importantly the Phonostage is a Device needing to be heard,
hearing the choices of others who have taken a long time to find their Holy Grail of a Phonostage, can be extremely rewarding and educational.

There might be foot work required to get the best experiences and gain in understanding where your preferences lean toward, but what a great way to grow in understanding, through meeting fellow enthusiasts and being given demonstrations of the choices that others have made .     

The phono section is critical to the sound you get in a system. If it does anything suspect the best amps and speakers in the world won't make it right.

One thing poorly understood is how phono sections can generate ticks and pops that sound for all the world as if they are on the LP surface. These ticks and pops occur if the phono section has poor high frequency overload margins. A cartridge and tonearm cable have an electrical resonance that will be between 20-30dB more powerful than the actual signal. While this resonance might be at a couple of MHz, if energized by the cartridge output it can easily overload the input section of the phono preamp- and you get a tick when that happens.


A side benefit of a properly designed phono section (one that takes this phenomena into account) is that it will be less sensitive to 'cartridge loading'. Cartridge loading is the use of a loading resistor at the input of the phono stage. Its really there for the benefit of the phono section rather than the cartridge- it detunes that resonance I mentioned above. If the phono section is sensitive to that resonance, removing it will cause the phono section to sound better. But the act of loading the cartridge causes the cartridge to have to generate more current- and that in turn will cause its cantilever to be more stiff. IMO/IME you're better off working with a phono section that does not have this issue.

As a side note, I'm convinced that this engineering problem is a good part of why the CD came into existence, since back in the 1970s and 80s the majority of phono sections made had this tick and pop problem. If people didn't think that LPs had ticks and pops would they have been so eager to embrace the CD? ...

Nothing changes the fact the phono pre will always be a bottleneck to everything before it if it isnt up to task and flexible enough like an open tap to let it flow uninpeded.
Clearly you can’t read or your bias guilds you. I said EVERTHING MATTERS equally and to think of the cart arm and pre as one for synergy.
ALL IN ONE.

We all are well aware of your Luxman tables. I told you 2 years ago, I had one over 4 decades ago when current and in spec. Found it more digital and hollow sounding then and now as do others.
Thats subjective , its what choice allows us.

The OP asked....How much difference does a phono preamp really make?

It makes plenty of difference. It can ruin a well set up cart and arm. It has more control over both arm and cart ,able to bottleneck like a half open faucet. Get the best you can afford so every drop of energy from contact gets through. Lesser priced carts suddenly dont sound lesser at all.
Better carts , well getting out of what you paid dearly for is a better value again. This is common sense. NO matter how good your cart is , it will ALWAYS be at the mercy of the electronics that interpret that tiny signal and amplify it. The cart cant fix that, its job is done.
It’s not about seeing it from one end or the other. It’s about seeing it as one from beginning to end and budgeting to acheive it with no bottlenecks at the users own price point. Once again , choice is good.
As well, bias ownership and ranting on about it is far from common sense espescially when you shout down anyone elses choices as toys if they arent what you own. Thats narrow minded living in a box with blinders that retards your learning and others. Not inclusive at all.
Your gripes about MC carts. Those appear more as obstacles to you, you personally, or you wouldnt be whining about them...again n again.....many others dont seem to be so incapable to get past it and hear what they are capable of....with a better phono section....
Just like many like their MM or MI even more...with a better phono pre

In my experience not just opinion, a better phono pre in anyones system allows wider choice of carts, types, output , flexability and far better sound out of all choices. Lesser priced carts become far better value. Expensive carts really shine. Win win..... long term...not short sighted ignoring the room new cart change and upgrade that usually follow us all with carts that wear.
Versatility and choice keeps one from being trapped and boxed in....

You just said the pre is not a concern with Mm or Mi . Thats BS. Pure BS....regardless of output..nonsense. A better phono pre makes any cartridge sound better that can be better.

You are free to start from the other side, if you’re using average cartridge you can upgrade your phono preamp, but your limit is a cartridge (limit in frequency response, distortion, channel separation, clarity, resolution, tracking ability etc). You can’t do anything about it upgdaring a phono stage!

It’s like trying to play badly recorded vinyl and blame your phono stage, but the problem is SOURCE.
If the vinyl is OK next step is CARTRIDGE (not phono stage).

When we have a decent phono cartridge then a phonostage is definitely very important, because a decent cartridge reproduce what’s on the record correct.

Look at OPs cartridges first!

Trouble is you only and always push your ownership bias on all others here.

This is a common sense, nothing else.

The Technics is your idea of best, not mine and many many others agree. Its just a subjective choice that to many doesnt sound right. The arm...Ive heard better on that exact table. Reason why many swap it out...they know..not opine blindly. How many do you own ? Im guessing none. I kept one for 6 months . Good table not my sense of natural analog sound.

I don’t care about it at all, BECAUSE THE OP’S TURNTABLE IS TECHNICS and he asked for a phono stage, not for another turntable, try to understand it (my personal choice doesn’t matter, and my turntables are two Luxman PD-444, not Technics).

If Technics is red flag for you then try to understand that OP is already the owner of Technics.

Please stop with the imperialistic opinions that if you dont own it or approve its bad and everyone else shouldnt either. Surprirised your not ranting about belts too. Whats wrong with Newbes and MC’s. I know plenty who started there with no problem...

I only post about something I own (or owned in the past 7 years). I posted many times why an MC is not good for a newbie, first problem is low output and as a result there is a noise, second problem is re-tipping process and very short life span of such cartridge in general (especially with average stylus profile). Main problem for a newbie is that he can accidentally damage the cantilever or stylus and then it’s over. It happens.

All these problems are irrelevant for MM or MI cartridges, because the stylus is user replaceable and available separately, no hum or noise with an average phono stage, and the sound is just like master tape with a decent MM or MI.


Personally I like LOMC cartridges too, but I am not a newbie and I have tried and owned over 50 different cartridges in the last 7 years (new high-end and vintage high-end), including some of the best LOMC, MM, MI.

Regarding Technics turntables: I know them very well, using them for over 25 years, the last one was SP-10mkII. But I still have two upgraded SL1200mkII in my second system and I test my cartridges using those decks with headphones. In my main system I have much better turntables and tonearms (Reed 3p, FR64s and FR66fx, Lustere 801, Denon, Ikeda ... ).

But when a person (who own Technics) asking for advice I believe I know what I’m talking about.

The OP cartridges like Denon 110 MC is the worst part in his analog chain, not his phono stages! Logically it’s nice to start with a better cartridge in this situation (it’s also cheaper start with more noticeable results). Because if you will start with a phono stage the cartridge will be like a bad filter between the source and phono stage and a lot of information will be missing and will not be delivered to the phono stage (even if it will be a top phono stage on earch)! This is why upgrading a phono stage (if necessary) is next step after upgrading a cartridge!

If you brain work different it’s not my problem @has2be



NOW LET ME QUOTE THE OP:

Sorry for the noob question...

I have a Technics SL1200-GR turntable with two cartridges; a Denon DL110 and a Clearaudio Performer. I also have two phono stages; a Consonance PM6 and the internal phono stage in my Belles Aria integrated.

I see a weak link and it’s Denon DL110 MC cartridge.
I see another weak link and it’s ClearAudio MM cartridge with unprotected aluminum cantilever with Elliptical tip without ability to change the stylus by user, cartridge generator made by Audio-Technica, but the output of this cartridge is not a problem for OP’s phono stages!

Better cartridge will change everything in his system in my opinion, without upgdading of the phono pre.

cog cog cog cog  cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog cog

What's that?















A Technics turntable and all its ilk.

You just said the pre is not a concern with Mm or Mi . Thats BS. Pure BS....regardless of output..nonsense.  A better phono pre makes any cartridge sound better that can be better. 
Trouble is you only and always push your ownership bias on all others here. 
The Technics is your idea of best,  not mine and many many others agree. Its just a subjective choice that to many doesnt sound right. The arm...Ive heard better on that exact table. Reason why many swap it out...they know..not opine blindly. How many do you own ? Im guessing none. I kept one for 6 months . Good table not my sense of natural analog sound.
Please stop with the imperialistic opinions that if you dont own it or approve its bad and everyone else shouldnt either. 
Surprirised your not ranting about belts too.
Whats wrong with Newbes and MC's. I know plenty who started there with no problem...
More generalizations n bs....  once again choice is good . Its inclusive and lets everyone have their choice of sound and use. Talking down anything you dont own or approve is not inclusive. It turns off the eager and the experienced to take part.

I’ll be able to give you some idea, in a couple of days, what a Bob’ Devices SUT, the SKY 20, sounds like through my cheap ass Musical Fidelity V-Phono, it has a good power supply, so punches slightly above its weight.

The SKY 20 is about the step up my fairly cheap AT MC cartridge needs, and that through the MM section of my V-Phono, should make a substantial difference.

I have a kit for one of the 2 phono sections Bob likes, yes there are just 2, and one of those does not respond. ;} Then things should improve enough for anew cartridge.

Try Allnic H1202. 
It will work quite well with $500 ~ $1000 MM or MC cartridges.

The fact the cartridge is the only contact in the groove makes EVERYTHING after it that much more important to not harm such a tiny signal.

This is irrelevant for MM and MI cartridges with output from 1.5 to 5 mV.

Stylus profile and overall cartridge design is the most important. OP’s turntable is TECHNICS GR with fully adjustable tonearm , you know, It’s perfect turntable/tonearm to mount and use a better MM/MI cartridge with advanced stylys profile and cantilever (and more involving sound). Next step is everything else (can take entire life).


All MC cartridges must be avoided by newbies (they can only cause more problems). Great MM/MI are far better than average MC. Denon 110 is average MC, ClearAudio is rebadged cheap Audio-Technica. 

It's a little comforting to me that there are disagreements on this topic from those that know far more than I do! 

"Always start with a cartridge, not vise versa. This is the first and most important component in analog chain."


Sorry , no offence but I don't see that as sage advice . You don't buy expensive racing tires for a Lada and expect it to compete with something purpose built through and through. The cart is important, not most but equally.
 Its beginning to end . ALL AS ONE. The phono pre is the bottleneck. It must be up to task or everything now ,or upgraded later is at its mercy.

The fact the cartridge is the only contact in the groove makes EVERYTHING after it that much more important to not harm such a tiny signal.
A signal requiring extreme amplification where even the wire matters more than any where else.
Its not about generalities or biased ownership , its simple common sense. They all matter equally,  they can all diminish the improvements playing before them . Starting with a good cart will only show real gains with an arm that lets it do its job with no added noise or distortion to a tiny signal created at contact. Now if that signal is as good as it can be when set up properly, how could a pre that doesnt play quietly and effectively to amplify all the details retreived be good enough ? Vinyl is the one source that everything matters, as any faulty , weak or neglected stage drasticaly reduces the real benefits of what you hear right down to the feet and what they sit on.

Its not just about more dollars making it better. Its about the balance and synergy and set up of the parts. The Phono pre is important to many, that understand ,  the better it is and the more versatile its settings are....relate directly to better sounding cartridges now and upgrades down the line fully realized,  or multiple arms and carts (types) on one or more tables used . 

As well, tube based phono stages are not all noisy or substandard. Thats a gross generalization thats patently false. Some of the better mid to higher end stages are dead quiet and tube based. Its wonderful to have choice,  its foolish for some to think they know only the best choices based on nothing more than biased ownership and their own cost bias. Choice is a good thing, it keeps everyone included. Unlike deriding everyone elses choice indifferent to their ownership bias'.  Choice is a great teacher, we learn from our own,  and when open minded we learn not just about our choices from others experience.
But their different choices and why's expanding our  possible choices further . All that said , nothing will change the fact the phono pre is the make or break piece at just how good that start with the cart choice thinking will work let alone the arm its married to as in better or worse...
Why spend good money and effort to dig as much out of the groove to have it ruined by the phono section seems counter intuitive ....

It’s impossible to "read" the groove correctly with a conical stylus (and elliptical stylus is not the best), if you can’t pick up the information (music) from the groove correctly then no phono stage will help you, no matter what price.

1) Vinyl Record is the source of music.

2) Cartridge (stylus tip) is the one and only device that actually touch the record and "read the groove" (read the source).

Everyone should have a great cartridge first and then everything else on equal level.

Always start with a cartridge, not vise versa. This is the first and most important component in analog chain.

** read and watch this and that at least.

@cakyol

Spend about $1000 MAX for a cartridge and maybe at most another $500 MAX for your phono amp and you will be set.

sorry but i don’t agree with this, just far too broad a generality, esp. re $500 for a phono stage

depends so much on the system and demands of the listener/user

First, in any chain of events the first stage is the most effectual in performance, all errors are magnified from that stage on.

Second, the relationship between the cartridge and the phono electronics is as tricky as that of the amplifier to speaker, each involves the interface between two energy converting transducers, mechanical to electronic for the phone, electronic to mechanical for the speaker.  There is little that is linear in either process.  

Cartridge loading sets the cartridge performance and is not a fixed issue, It effects the entire electro-mechanical relationship.

I would suggest that you read Austin Audio Works paper on cartridge loading (on the web site) to expand your understanding of this reality of this relationship, no fluff, just raw data delivered in graphs.  You have to decide whether the timbre of the cartridge is effected by what loads it.

Resolution of audio information starts at the beginning, and each record is different - check out the Black Swan.

Here's my take.  In a vinyl reproduction system, the phono preamp system, which could be simply a built in phono stage, a separate phono preamp or those in combination with an SUT, is the most critical part of a system's amplification chain.  This is because it's tasked with taking a miniscule output signal from a phono cartridge and amplifying it up to line level, while trying to act as a straight wire with gain.  This is a difficult task.

Phono stages in preamps may be good, but their mostly good for a built in stage.  A serious quality separate phono stage under most circumstances should improve your system.

But once this is accomplished, the rest of your system has to be of sufficient sound quality and neutrality to be able to discern the  differences between the various phono stages.  No part of the reproduction chain is unimportant.

The only way to tell for sure is to listen and compare, only you can judge using your own system what improvement a piece of gear give you, and whether that improvement is worth the cost of the component.

Good luck. 

The question is what phono stage, not all phono stages are good, not every higher priced phono stage is better than lower priced phono stage. Sometimes they charge for usability, but not for the quality. 

Tube phono stages are more problematic, because tubes are noisy, especially for low output MC cartridges. 

Solid State phono stages are different too, but they last forever, tubes are like cartridges - you can use them only for certain amount of time. 

I'd buy a Tavish Design the classic or the vintage tubed phono preamp, or maybe even the EAR 834 p. You will hear a difference with either.

Noob, maybe try a tubed phono pre.
Dont hear a difference you like?
Roll some tubes. One like the Manley Chinook for example, one that's offers many gain and loading settings to possibly be a good mach for a number of cartridges down the road.

A manufactures settings are a suggestion, use your ears.

I run a moving coil Lyra. It's a lively detailed cartridge but I wanted to run my phono pre at a lower gain to lower tube rush (noise).

Enter Bobs Devices SUT. A SKY 30 set at 1:30 per Bobs recommendation
(as mentioned above)

Wow, he was right. More of what I already enjoying and quieter. Love it.

Good luck in your hunt

A good phono stage with loadings correctly matched to the cart (or to your taste if you prefer) will make a big difference, more so with a moving coil, more so at the high end.

Miller, please send me your 'worthless' used carts so I can get them re-tipped with replacement suspension and they will be like new.  Whilst some robbers, like Koetsu, charge obscene amounts for re-tipping (but still less than half the new cartridge ticket), reasonable people like van den Hul and the Garrott Brothers work at sensible charges.

I think what most are trying to say is that it’s a matter of limiting factors. Look at your signal path and identify the weakest link. Figure out where you want to land for the system (usually budget driven decision) and upgrade the weakest link first. Any sort of smear in the signal chain can break up the soundstage - and no equipment can put it back together.  We have the same TT and I’ve had success with a 103R, a 1:40 SUT (Bob’s Devices) and a Decware tube phono preamp. I’ve since moved on from the 103, but it’s a great performer for the cost. Like most have said already the phono pre is important because it is responsible for more gain that any other equipment. Combine the high gain with the only tone control typically used in analog (RIAA correction) and you have the easiest piece of equipment to get wrong. 

If your cartridge is NOT good enough, it will not make a difference.

If your cartridge IS good enough, any phono amp over $1000 will NOT make a difference.  You will not hear any difference. 

Spend about $1000 MAX for a cartridge and maybe at most another $500 MAX for your phono amp and you will be set.