How much difference does a phono preamp really make?


Sorry for the noob question...

I have a Technics SL1200-GR turntable with two cartridges; a Denon DL110 and a Clearaudio Performer. I also have two phono stages; a Consonance PM6 and the internal phono stage in my Belles Aria integrated. 

To my ears, there is no discernable difference in sound between the two phono stages. 

I'm just wondering, if I went up to say a Clearaudio Smart Phono, or a Rogue, or even a GoldNote PH-10; would I be able to tell? How critical is a quality phono pre in analog sound reproduction?

Thanks,
Joe
128x128audionoobie

Showing 4 responses by has2be

The phono pre makes all the difference in the world....
Regarding the limititations to the cartridge and arms strengnths and inherently their weakness’s..
As well as its own strengths and limitations in regard to the previous’s real capailities....
Think of them as one importance in how they are relevant to each other....not how one is more relevant than the other.
The thing about the phono pre it can limit the strengths of the other two, but a good phono pre will show all their capabilities and flaws...
You don’t want the phono section to be the bottleneck if you have a good cart n arm . Conversly, if your planning a better arm or cart or both.....how will you know what they can do if the pre isn’t up to it..... this all hinges on the idea you know how and do have arm n cart properly set up.....
"Always start with a cartridge, not vise versa. This is the first and most important component in analog chain."


Sorry , no offence but I don't see that as sage advice . You don't buy expensive racing tires for a Lada and expect it to compete with something purpose built through and through. The cart is important, not most but equally.
 Its beginning to end . ALL AS ONE. The phono pre is the bottleneck. It must be up to task or everything now ,or upgraded later is at its mercy.

The fact the cartridge is the only contact in the groove makes EVERYTHING after it that much more important to not harm such a tiny signal.
A signal requiring extreme amplification where even the wire matters more than any where else.
Its not about generalities or biased ownership , its simple common sense. They all matter equally,  they can all diminish the improvements playing before them . Starting with a good cart will only show real gains with an arm that lets it do its job with no added noise or distortion to a tiny signal created at contact. Now if that signal is as good as it can be when set up properly, how could a pre that doesnt play quietly and effectively to amplify all the details retreived be good enough ? Vinyl is the one source that everything matters, as any faulty , weak or neglected stage drasticaly reduces the real benefits of what you hear right down to the feet and what they sit on.

Its not just about more dollars making it better. Its about the balance and synergy and set up of the parts. The Phono pre is important to many, that understand ,  the better it is and the more versatile its settings are....relate directly to better sounding cartridges now and upgrades down the line fully realized,  or multiple arms and carts (types) on one or more tables used . 

As well, tube based phono stages are not all noisy or substandard. Thats a gross generalization thats patently false. Some of the better mid to higher end stages are dead quiet and tube based. Its wonderful to have choice,  its foolish for some to think they know only the best choices based on nothing more than biased ownership and their own cost bias. Choice is a good thing, it keeps everyone included. Unlike deriding everyone elses choice indifferent to their ownership bias'.  Choice is a great teacher, we learn from our own,  and when open minded we learn not just about our choices from others experience.
But their different choices and why's expanding our  possible choices further . All that said , nothing will change the fact the phono pre is the make or break piece at just how good that start with the cart choice thinking will work let alone the arm its married to as in better or worse...
Why spend good money and effort to dig as much out of the groove to have it ruined by the phono section seems counter intuitive ....


You just said the pre is not a concern with Mm or Mi . Thats BS. Pure BS....regardless of output..nonsense.  A better phono pre makes any cartridge sound better that can be better. 
Trouble is you only and always push your ownership bias on all others here. 
The Technics is your idea of best,  not mine and many many others agree. Its just a subjective choice that to many doesnt sound right. The arm...Ive heard better on that exact table. Reason why many swap it out...they know..not opine blindly. How many do you own ? Im guessing none. I kept one for 6 months . Good table not my sense of natural analog sound.
Please stop with the imperialistic opinions that if you dont own it or approve its bad and everyone else shouldnt either. 
Surprirised your not ranting about belts too.
Whats wrong with Newbes and MC's. I know plenty who started there with no problem...
More generalizations n bs....  once again choice is good . Its inclusive and lets everyone have their choice of sound and use. Talking down anything you dont own or approve is not inclusive. It turns off the eager and the experienced to take part.
Nothing changes the fact the phono pre will always be a bottleneck to everything before it if it isnt up to task and flexible enough like an open tap to let it flow uninpeded.
Clearly you can’t read or your bias guilds you. I said EVERTHING MATTERS equally and to think of the cart arm and pre as one for synergy.
ALL IN ONE.

We all are well aware of your Luxman tables. I told you 2 years ago, I had one over 4 decades ago when current and in spec. Found it more digital and hollow sounding then and now as do others.
Thats subjective , its what choice allows us.

The OP asked....How much difference does a phono preamp really make?

It makes plenty of difference. It can ruin a well set up cart and arm. It has more control over both arm and cart ,able to bottleneck like a half open faucet. Get the best you can afford so every drop of energy from contact gets through. Lesser priced carts suddenly dont sound lesser at all.
Better carts , well getting out of what you paid dearly for is a better value again. This is common sense. NO matter how good your cart is , it will ALWAYS be at the mercy of the electronics that interpret that tiny signal and amplify it. The cart cant fix that, its job is done.
It’s not about seeing it from one end or the other. It’s about seeing it as one from beginning to end and budgeting to acheive it with no bottlenecks at the users own price point. Once again , choice is good.
As well, bias ownership and ranting on about it is far from common sense espescially when you shout down anyone elses choices as toys if they arent what you own. Thats narrow minded living in a box with blinders that retards your learning and others. Not inclusive at all.
Your gripes about MC carts. Those appear more as obstacles to you, you personally, or you wouldnt be whining about them...again n again.....many others dont seem to be so incapable to get past it and hear what they are capable of....with a better phono section....
Just like many like their MM or MI even more...with a better phono pre

In my experience not just opinion, a better phono pre in anyones system allows wider choice of carts, types, output , flexability and far better sound out of all choices. Lesser priced carts become far better value. Expensive carts really shine. Win win..... long term...not short sighted ignoring the room new cart change and upgrade that usually follow us all with carts that wear.
Versatility and choice keeps one from being trapped and boxed in....