I listened to horn speakers for the first time recently, Trenner & Friedl RAs powered by Shindo. It's either my first or second favorite setup I've ever heard, and I've heard all the big brands.
Horn based loudspeakers why the controversy?
As just another way to build a loudspeaker system why such disputes in forums when horns are mentioned? They can solve many issues that plague standard designs but with all things have there own. So why such hate? As a loudspeaker designer I work with and can appreciate all transducer and loudspeaker types and I understand that we all have different needs budgets experiences tastes biases. But if you dare suggest horns so many have a problem with that suggestion..why?
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Over seven decades, I've owned both horn and direct radiating speakers. The way each presents its sound is akin to what I experienced in Vienna several years ago. I was fortunate to hear the VPO play in both the Staatsoper and the Musikverein. Same orchestra - - but playing in two clearly differing sonic venues. IMO, the playing in the Staatsoper was akin to direct radiation/cone speakers, while the playing in the Musikverein was more "in your face" like I had experienced with my horns. I enjoyed them both, although each presented the music as different audible (and emotional) experiences. I guess it's a choice as to which approach you prefer as a constant diet over the weeks, months and years. |
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K horns are availble used $2500 up. Altec a7 $800 and up EV has full horn options under a $1000. Most of these are a good step up from LaScala. The low used price allows room for well thought out upgrades. If ones in the know world class horns can be built under $3k. Or go on craigs they exist all over the USA. |
There was a nice smattering of large horn speakers at CAF this year. After seeing and hearing the La Scala IIIs there I was left to wonder why anyone would need to invest in others from smaller companies costing a fair bit more. I would love a pair of those in my house. Of course as always, different strokes..... In the last few months Ive had the opportunity to audition current model Heresy, Forte, and La Scala as well as Cornwall II. All very very nice! |
Who has room for La Scalas? (Rhetorical question for which I prefer there not be answers proffered...thanks) However, they do seem to be a bargain at 4 grand, and based on my recent success (a pleasant surprise) with Heresy IIIs I can only imagine (which will have to do as none of the nearby Audio Salons have them for audition) they sound splendid indeed. But how far away from them do you need to be? Near the butler pantry? Do you have to move the vintage globe collection? The Milton busts? (plural) Heresy IIIs need subs (I have 2) but otherwise there's yer Klipschy Taste of Tasty Horn fun right there for relatively small funds, and mine are 9 feet from my fat head. |
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I listened to the LaScala's at CAF. On the day in that room their spectral balance seemed a little tipped up to me, and overall they didn't sound quite as warm as I, personally, like in a sonic presentation. I gather there are a number of professional and DIY after-market mods that can have quite an impact on this, though. |
Horns seem to be less controversial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txRsNmMGWZo |
This is a great Interview. An audiophile and a drummer. He likes horns when it comes to reproducing drums. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RxRTFx6Cd0 |
d2girls, I like a lot of things about Avantgarde systems. They are, like most good horn systems, very dynamic and sound quite good at lower volume levels. They also don't have as much problems with nasal coloration or other types of tonal coloration associated with some horn systems. But, they have varying degrees of problems with integration between the horn and the bass modules; the two parts sound different. Also, with some of their systems, the bass has a bit of a "one-note" quality. Still, on balance, I like the systems I've heard. |
Bass may have been AWOL below 40Hz, but are your Focals really better in this regard, or is it just their exaggerated upper bass you’re mistaking for bass depth? The Focals are about 5db down at 40Hz, and a very steep roll off below 50Hz: https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-aria-936-loudspeaker-measurements Exaggerated bass is very common among modern tower speakers - becoming something of the norm. Many, even "pro" reviewers, mistake this for bass depth because they’re not in tune with what the two lowest octaves really sound/feel like. A lot of music has very little if any content below 40Hz. I bet those LaScalas were barely putting out anything useful below 50Hz. |
https://www.facebook.com/groups/614272918584739/ Doing more designing collecting modifying and restorations not manufactering product anymore so on FB and social media. I owned 2 pairs of AG horns built about a doz bass systems for trio owners. AG are OK horns but integration with bass is a issue but its also a issue for many horns since midbass on down is usually compromised in size or not horn loaded. If mid bass and bass are proper horns they yield some of the best mid bass and bass availble but as I mentioned above its were product gets compromised DIY types are free to build proper sized but they are not easily availble maybe this is part of the issue hardly anyone has heard or owned full range all horn loaded systems and they take knowledge and sometimes real physical work to set up. And face it most just want to easily buy just open box and plug in. But with many things in life sometimes whats easy and convenient is not whats best. |
I've heard dozens of horn systems. Of the complete systems, I like: the Edgarhorn systems I've heard; some of the Volti systems I've heard were okay, but not that great for my taste; Klipschorn and Lascala not my favorites; Altec Voice of the Theater not my favorites; Goto-good, but big and expensive); and a few more that I can't remember who built them. Back-loaded horn systems include: Beauhorn, Rethm, Charney, and a few others. Mostly, I've heard custom systems built around Western Electric, International Projector Company, Yoshimura Laboratories, and Jensen --drivers and horns. I've heard systems that use new drivers from G.I.P (Japan) that are replicas of old Western Electric drivers that sound terrific (they ought to, given the prices of these drivers). My own system is built around a horn-based system from Strumenti Acustici de Precisione (twin 12" Alnico magnet woofers in an Onken cabinet, compression driver and horn midrange (I swapped out what came with the system and replaced the midrange with a Western Electric 713b driver and a 12025 sectoral horn), and a bullet tweeter. |
... If mid bass and bass are proper horns they yield some of the best mid bass and bass availble but as I mentioned above its were product gets compromised DIY types are free to build proper sized but they are not easily availble maybe this is part of the issue hardly anyone has heard or owned full range all horn loaded systems and they take knowledge and sometimes real physical work to set up. And face it most just want to easily buy just open box and plug in. But with many things in life sometimes whats easy and convenient is not whats best. The size of an all-horn system that extends down 20-30Hz range, or even lower, is not trivial, certainly not with dual subs or more. DIY is usually the approach to seek here as there are relatively few pre-assembled solutions to be had, and the ones that are typically counts pro subs tuned higher (around 35-45Hz, perhaps) for more pronounced midbass impact. Danley Sound Labs on the other hand, a pro reinforcement manufacturer, offer viable horn sub alternatives for domestic use, some of which extends down 20Hz and lower. The very few "hifi" options there are of horn subs are really outrageously priced and mostly statement products (what’s expensive here tends to simply be luxury finish, added to more complex product assembly), and this narrows down the appeal to the über-wealthy that are hardly representative of audiophiles in general. So, DIY or used Vintage is the route to go (if not Danley), and this often requires some elaborate research to get a bearing on the iterations that suit one’s needs and possible practical limitations the best. It’s an interesting journey, however, and there are DIY-communities around (like Avsforum, Bill Fitz Maurice forum, Klipsch ditto and others) that are very helpful to aid one’s quest here. My own tapped horn subs extends to 20Hz, and it’s a different bass compared to the direct radiator subs I’ve heard - indeed, I’ve never heard bass of this quality before. Horn bass like this doesn’t have what I regard as a degree of thickening, smear and slightly massive feel of some if not most DR subs, and the sheer presence, smoothness, ease and informative nature of TH(/FLH) subs is rather unique. Horn bass somehow sounds less like "bass" and more like an enveloping, differentiated downwards extension (with a livelier upper band as well), and it can give the initial impression that some of the more heavy-handed or even ponderous weight and "pulsating" nature of DR’s is a disadvantage with movies in particular. You quickly realize though, or so I find, that the differentiation of horn bass opens it up with better dynamics to boot, and it makes for a more whole, coherent overall experience. You might think that boxes this big (in my case 20 cubic feet per horn) would overwhelm the experience (and of course you could make them if dialed too hot) as a sonic bass entity per se, but quite to the contrary they blend in more effectively; they’re simply easier to integrate with all-horn mains, I find, with the proviso that the size of the horns themselves can be a challenge to make acoustically invisible in one’s listening room, unless space is sufficient of even abundant. In any case I’m still baffled to see "horn" speaker manufacturers mostly resort to DR subs to augment the horns in the frequency range above, seeing how it usually diminishes the coherency, sheer quality and dynamics of the sound. As horn proponents I'd urge to let size be size, and physics have their say; are we audiophiles or not? :) |
I sold a good num of very large front and back loaded sub bass systems for home audio and also for simulator use. The costs get crazy high very fast. Audiophiles also want veneer or other deluxe finish this adds greatly to costs when things get crazy large, it also adds greatly to packing costs and shipping since you have to pack to keep a 800lb full veneered horn from even the slightest damage a imposible task. With home installs many times you have to hire someone to help tote and someone who knows set up (I had to hire 6 men to move my subbass horn to new audioroom). And most audiorooms can not house or even if they could horn wouldnt fit up stairs through door arround corner etc. I did put alot of design effort into more portable giant designs and ones that easily come apart to fit such but markets limited and the above is problematic. Today I turn customers away and just build the large ones for my own use. Its far easier and cheaper to just slap ported cab to cover mid and bass thus why most are such. |
@larryi - thank you, you've certainly heard many horn systems! Not heard of the Italian make you have Strumenti Acustici de Precisione, as I have an Italy backgroung , I will make sure I try and find a dealer in italy close to me to have a listen when I visit. I also would like to hear a pair of Ocello's from the UK. I have heard some big horns at various Hi-Fi shows, 'Classic Audio Loudspeakers' Horns springs to mind from memory. My Oris 150's were made by johnK, I've had them since 2007, and I must say that I would not swap them for any of the Horns that I have heard so far. They are streets ahead of my stock Klipschorns sound wise. |
Except music with a 5 string bass at 31hz for the low B, percussion overtones, pianos, the ambient sound around live orchestras, life...etc....Well. life is not music, but yes, there are a fair number of sources for below 40Hz bass. Still, a lot of popular music is excluded. Being that reviewers often listen to classical, pipe organ, and such as references, it's perplexing as to why so many confuse the 2nd octave for the first. I realize speakers often get some reinforcement in way of room placement, but still, many "budget" floorstanders don't produce anything useful below 35Hz. I'd rather have a speaker that sacrifices everything below 40Hz in exchange for tactile and defined bass above that - which is what you get with Klispch Heritage. |
Gawdbless, Strumenti Acustici de Precisione no longer exists, but the owner/designer, Vincenzo Fratello, has a new company called DolceVita Audio. It is even harder to find references to that company. A dealer in my Northern Virginia area, Deja Vu Audio, heard the new lineup of speakers in Italy and plans to bring it into his shop when production commences. I don't think there are any horn designs in the new lineup, but, the speakers are probably worth hearing; this particular dealer makes custom horn speakers from vintage and new parts and is very much in tune to the sound of horn-based systems. The Oris horn, using full-range drivers as mid to upper frequency drivers is a very promising approach. Used that way, many such drivers sound much smoother and natural than as truly full range drivers. I have heard Lowther, AER and Feastrix and cheap Tang Band drivers used this way and the systems sounded quite good. The only time I heard a full-range driver sound great without any other drivers is the Charney Audio back-loaded horn--a quite amazing system give that it sounds good, looks presentable, does not take up much room and is very reasonably priced. I've heard the Charney with a Voxativ driver and an AER driver (I like the AER more because it sounded smoothly extended in its top range). The Voxativ full range systems (of course using their drivers) sound good too, but I'll still take the Charneys. |
I completely agree that speakers like the Heresy IIIs I have been enjoying are perhaps the most coherent I've heard to their 58hz or so limits (there is bass below that point of course, but not in the same tonal or dynamic ballpark)...very clean, accurate, and impactful bass in that range, utterly enhanced by 2 carefully adjusted subs. I just looked up the aforementioned Charney speakers and man...beautiful craftsmanship and nice ideas...Maybe I'll hear 'em at a show sometime. |
Greg Timbers (of JBL) on the evolution of loudspeakers, and how you really can’t fool physics nor the importance of efficiency:
https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/greg-timbers-jbl/ |
@phusis What Greg Timbers says is so true. All the points are accurate. You can’t fool physics. There are only a few audiophiles today who understand what a big speaker with large 15” woofers and 4” voice coils can do and even fewer who are willing to pay the price in terms of poor WAF and transport logistical headaches! And I include audiophile dealers/retailers in this boat - as dealers tend to only carry what they have a good chance of selling (and who can blame them for that). It is true but currently 99.99% prefer what Greg calls “toy speakers”... |
@shadorne wrote: "There are only a few audiophiles today who understand what a big speaker with large 15” woofers and 4” voice coils can do and even fewer who are willing to pay the price in terms of poor WAF and transport logistical headaches!" Amen brother. I show big speakers at audio shows (hybrids, not fullrange horn systems) and see people listening with their eyes instead of with their ears all the time. They walk up to the room expectantly because they heard something that sounded good through the open doorway, then they see a big woofer and a horn and recoil in surprise, spin round, and scurry away as if they don't want to get caught near such speakers. But if you do the math, those big powerful woofers often have a better motor-strength-to-moving-mass ratio than the expensive little audiophile darling midwoofers the eye-listeners were hoping to see, not counting the air-coupling benefits of the larger cone area (which are amplified by horn-loading, something I don't do because my speakers gotta fit into my car when crated up). A top-notch reviewer (whose day jobs include math professor and professional musician) once remarked to me that speaker designers are getting better and better at solving the wrong problems. There are very basic problems that 15" woofers and 4" voice coils solve which aren't even acknowledged by most of the industry. Duke |
Duke my office systems running 5 -15s, pair community leviathans 4x 515b, 90d community with Altec 288,Faital pro tweeters community SQ60 horn and a 15 sub woofer. I use it at low levels nearfield everday. My Shearer horns run 4x15, my giant conicals have pair EV 15KW. My sub bass horn 4 custom built 15s. |
I also have Moral Carbon loudspeakers SEAS best about and while those loudspeakers do have a good sound I very quickly tire of the unnatural soundstaging, the lack of mid bass impact even with subs, that forced fatiguing sound. Once you are exposed to the big horns its hard to listen to anything but. I even convinced a few sellers of such small things to run large horns in home systems. Horns can sound near real. I have had more than one guest ask if I had a real band playing in my audioroom as they aproached door. I have never had anyone think a standard audiophile system was the real thing only the large horns. I had a few audiopros over doing design work. During downtime between demoing results I played the big horns as back ground music even those jaded audio pros couldnt focous on work when the large horns were on they are so engaging. When designing crazy costly consumer speaker systems I can not compare to the large far more affordable horns I own since the horns are so much better. I just compare them to standard audiophile fare. |
Seems to be more love for horns today I have a Facebook forum with 15k horn lovers many posts popping up even in audiogon forums on horns. I see many popular loudspeakers sporting waveguides. Klipsch is gaining in popularity among audiophiles and music lovers. Dance systems are sporting horn loading of bass many classic horn designs have replicas available and the pro-audio market has dozens of greatly improved drivers designed just for horn loading so less need to run vintage drivers in full horn systems. I even see a few audio reviews on horn systems even if it's the sad entry-level types still I see hope ahead. |
I can easily understand why horns in the tweeter section, say from 9k up is gaining popularity, as dome tweeters just don't capture that upper ambience producing a sheen to the delight of the senses. The only dome tweet I know which can compete witha tweeter horn is the Seas Exotic T35 rated a TRUE 94db. But my guess is, ((guessing here as i've not acutally heard either the Seas T35 Exotic nor a midrange horn, ever, neither) the midrange will be voiced far superior ina horn mid, vs the Seas T35, So whats the point adding the Seas T35 whena horn easily beats out the T35??? Why? Sensitivity 94db aint too shabby, I'll adnit Buta horn, , most come in at 97db++\ = Higher sens always beats outa lower sens,. Always. Sens is everything. The old probing question **How does the speaker sound?** Is a mute point. The new 21st C question we should all be asking *whats the sens** The true sens, not the fudged sens, China fudges all its speakers at least 2 points. = more sales. Thing is most of the good sounding horns were made in the 1960;'s american engineering. And they are becomming less frequent up for sale |
I never thought I would ever consider a horn until I went on a 1 year speaker hunt. After listening to 30-40 different speakers around the country ( Magico, YG, Vivid, Meridien, SF, Wilson, Eggleston, Stenhiem), I heard an AvantGarde Horn and loved the sound. I ended up with Viking Acoustic Grande Voix dual horn speakers. I am super happy with my purchase. I need to look up the facebook page. |
My guess is a the new FR drivers will surpass the old midrange horns. Its a guess, But I'm cinfidenta test will prove the shootout, where the horn will take a fatal hit. Why? Newer technology. Cones always beat out a mechanism. Cones will sound more realistic in the upper bass vs a mechanical horn. Close But no cigar. + the lower bass region is a huge bonus witha a new high tech FR cone. I'll admit, horns do have a place, in the ultra highs, say 10k+ hzs. I am using the Magnovox alnico tweeter horn. Real nice. Completely annihilated the famous Seas Millennium tweeter. Domes just can not compete with horns. Millennium 87db vs Alnico horn @ 97ish db. |
I ended up with Viking Acoustic Grande Voix dual horn speakers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Found it $28k, weight..who knows, I am sure well over 100lbs each speaker. has dome tweeter https://www.viking-acoustics.com/grande-voix-1 |
larryi2,502 posts02-21-2019 5:21pmI've heard dozens of horn systems. Of the complete systems, I like: the Edgarhorn systems I've heard; some of the Volti systems I've heard were okay, but not that great for my taste; Klipschorn and Lascala not my favorites; Altec Voice of the Theater not my favorites; Goto-good, but big and expensive); and a few more that I can't remember who built them. Back-loaded horn systems include: Beauhorn, Rethm, Charney, and a few others. Mostly, I've heard custom systems built around Western Electric, International Projector Company, Yoshimura Laboratories, and Jensen --drivers and horns. I've heard systems that use new drivers from G.I.P (Japan) that are replicas of old Western Electric drivers that sound terrific (they ought to, given the prices of these drivers). My own system is built around a horn-based system from Strumenti Acustici de Precisione (twin 12" Alnico magnet woofers in an Onken cabinet, compression driver and horn midrange (I swapped out what came with the system and replaced the midrange with a Western Electric 713b driver and a 12025 sectoral horn), and a bullet tweeter. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THis is a great post, informs us to whats out there and your fair opinions.\ YOur WE horn system sounds fantastic. I bet it is so accurate, no distortion, just clean pure music. But at that price, few of us could afford. WOW twin alnico magnet 12 inch woofers, Thats a ALOTTT of bass. My room is small, so a pair of W18's at 87db is really sufficient for my listening needs. I have a AMT ribbon/Neo magnet arriving off a ebay/china site, $75 a pair, Lets see how they sound next to my Magnovox Alnico tweeers, |
I refer to my system as a "Japanese" system (in fact, the Western Electric drivers came from Japan) because it is much like systems you will see in Japanese audio magazines. Such systems are crammed into tiny Japanese apartments. What they excel at is sounding lively and full at LOW volume levels, which is a necessity given the thin walls of these apartments and the extremely polite and considerate culture of the Japanese. My system actually has very modest bass output and does not go very deep. The drivers are light weight, and have a pleated paper surround that limits excursion. These drivers excel at delivering clean and tuneful bass; just not that much of it. I've heard systems with twin 18" drivers based on similar designs that also have somewhat limited bass. Even when playing music with powerful bass, you can barely feel the cones moving in and out; they vibrate but to not pump in and out very much. |
Absolutely true murphythecat. Horns can be the most annoying loudspeakers to listen to but, don't hold that against all of them. There are some excellent sounding horn systems out there and because they are strongly directional can be easier to set up then regular dynamic speakers. Room acoustics are not as critical and you can get a pretty decent image out of the box. Their efficiency allows you to get away with a much smaller amp and save money. However, horns are big nd they will own any room you put them in not just because of their size but their appearance also. You could make an argument that my ESLs blend in but, there is no blending in with naked horns. |
... horns are big nd they will own any room you put them in not just because of their size but their appearance also. You could make an argument that my ESLs blend in but, there is no blending in with naked horns. I don't know why one would necessarily want big speakers to blend in visually - kind of goes contrary to their nature. If you got the dedicated space to house something like big horns, let them unapologetically take up the environment they inhabit and functionality have its say. I for one like the purity, honesty and looks-by-way-of-function not watered down or over aestheticized. I lets you know their true purpose. |
Well stated phusis{I don't know why one would necessarily want big speakers to blend in visually - it kind of goes contrary to their nature. If you got the dedicated space to house something like big horns, let them unapologetically take up the environment they inhabit and functionality have its say. I for one like the purity, honesty, and looks-by-way-of-function not watered down or over aestheticized. It lets you know their true purpose} |
This has also been my experience. I can tolerate a colored sounding non horn speaker much easier. But to me, and the things I look for in audio, even when horns are done right (AvantGarde Acoustics, Cessaro, Acapella*), there are other, non horn speakers at the same price points, that to my ears, still sound better. Early in the pandemic, my cousin bought a pair of Klipsch Heresy IV, but then was trapped in Europe unable to get a flight back to the States, He asked me to take them to my house and break them in for him. I was all excited to get to listen to them, but that did not last long. They just came off sounding like a ’blunt instrument’ to me. The tended to give any music I played through them, a veneer like it was being played through a PA system. Maybe not a bad thing when listening to rock, but when I listen to classical, I want it to sound like the instruments are coming unamplified, in front of me. And yes, to all the naysayers, I was listening to them through high quality tube gear. And yes, I have also heard Klipshorns for extended periods, and while they are certainly better, they still do a lot of things wrong, to my ears.
*Although, that plasma tweeter Acapella uses is frighteningly good! |
