Kosst {Are you trying to tell me the hideous, honky, plastic horns JBL and Klipsch sell at Best Buy are great examples of horns and proof that horns are widely desired?} No that is all in your mind {
I love to bring over people who own that Best Buy JBL and Klipsch crap and park them in front of my 936’s. It always leaves them lusting.} I highly doubt you ever have or ever will do that{
You seem to be under the impression that the general public is well aware of $10,000 speakers and is discriminating in their tastes} No I am not. Kosst many logic errors personal biases and down right BS in what you post good luck with that.
Horn based loudspeakers why the controversy?
As just another way to build a loudspeaker system why such disputes in forums when horns are mentioned? They can solve many issues that plague standard designs but with all things have there own. So why such hate? As a loudspeaker designer I work with and can appreciate all transducer and loudspeaker types and I understand that we all have different needs budgets experiences tastes biases. But if you dare suggest horns so many have a problem with that suggestion..why?
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Kosst {I think their general behavior and theory is fundamentally flawed} in what ways are horns fundamentally flawed? you can think this all you want but its just a bias unless you have facts to support this bold claim. Kosst{
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them} again non sequitur a logic failing And this gem-Kosst{
And yeah, I'm absolutely biased against them }
Bias is prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. You invalidate your arguments with non sequitur and self admitted bias. |
Kosst -Not one of my local dealers stock focal
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them No dealers selling tube gear in my area
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them never found a Ferrari at a dealer
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them. Never found a bigfoot at my local audio dealer no mater how hard I looked
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them. Rise above Dunning Kruger. |
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What is a directional loudspeaker? A conventional loudspeaker is designed to spread sound over a fairly wide area: it has a paper or plastic cone that moves back and forth, pumping sound in a wide arc in front of it. The more energy you feed into a speaker (in the form of electric current), the more energy it can pump out as sound, the further the sound waves can travel, and the louder they seem to be. Giant speakers used at rock festivals produce so much energy that they can be heard over a huge area, whether you want to hear them or not. Most of the time this is exactly how we want speakers to behave, but there are times when it would be helpful if they could work more selectively. Suppose you're the captain of a giant, fast-moving warship and you see a tiny fishing boat moored just up ahead and locked firmly in your path. If it doesn't respond to radio contact, you have a problem. You could use a megaphone to try to call out, but that's just a basic loudspeaker, really, and the sound it makes will probably not reach far enough. Wouldn't it be neat if you could send out a very focused "shout," in a tight beam of sound, that would travel all the way to the fishing boat to catch its attention, even from a huge distance away? This is essentially what a directional loudspeaker does: it's a kind of "sound flashlight" that can "shine" sound energy into a precise spot, even from some distance away. |
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Your confusing directional loudspeakers with horn designs and they are not the same thus why you are confused a directional loudspeaker is kind of "sound flashlight" that can "shine" sound energy into a precise spot, even from some distance away great for a LRAD blasting a pulsing irritating tone at pirates it is not a loudspeaker for home audio use so yes no one would want a LRAD or directional loudspeaker for home use. The issue here is you do not comprehend the basics of how loudspeakers function or any definition or classifications of different design you lump all as one without realizing loudspeakers exist for other uses besides audio reproduction. Do not expect anymore reply's. |
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I’m not sure if my recently acquired Klipsch Heresy III speakers have a dispersion plot published anywhere (they likely do), but whatever sort of phase plugs they’re using in the horns works very well at dispersing frequencies hither and yon…especially yon. I have decades of experience using horn loaded PA stuff (actually am mixing a jazz show tomorrow…you’re all invited!) although the Heresys are my only recent horny (horn-ish?) home audio items (not counting my old A7s), and if anybody is interested, look up the dispersion plots for Mackie or other modern horns and you can see they often are very dispersy. I can only assume Kosst is part of a plot directly dispersing anti dispersion misdirection. |
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ebm 4,320 posts01-07-2018 9:28amLets get Horney ASAP!!!!!Jump at it, lets get Horney ASAP, Dude!!!!! |
Let’s get down to brass tacks here. Most haven’t really heard horn speakers at all, let alone very good horn speakers. Those that have have heard hybrids mostly, and though hybrid solutions can sound wonderful they are, in their less dedicated iterations, commonly plagued by continuity problems between the midrange horn and the direct radiating unit(s) for the lower frequencies, not to speak of other inherent and potential issues that can mare any kind of speaker principle. If you fail the sound of a hybrid solution that incorporates a horn be aware that you’re addressing a combination, but a combination of what? Not only a horn, suffice it to say. All-horn speakers aren’t necessarily devoid of problems either, but more often than not I find all-horn iterations to be more dedicated in their approach and less apologetic, in a sense, of their origin and type of speaker. Going all-horn in other words I find typically embraces what horn speakers truly are qua horns, with all that implies in regards to size, system requirements and overall implementation; you go the horn route you damn well better go all the way and make it dedicated (which very often simply means going a different way to unlearn much of what one has been accustomed to over time), to really be able to get a bearing on their true worth and potential. Even then such a dedicated setup won’t appeal to everyone, but how is that indicative of anything? I gather at least 98% of audiophiles out there use direct radiating solutions (be they dynamic coil-diaphragm drivers, electrostatic, ribbon, "radial strahler" or whatever that aren’t loading an acoustic impedance transformer, i.e.: a horn) - which, whether you want this or not, very generally has a distinctive sonic imprinting (and set of limitations) in itself - with a minority of those using hybrid solutions involving horns, and very often just by virtue of a difference to what one is used to a very capable set of all-horn speakers can be deemed "thumbs-down" just by failing to conform to your preferred type of "cuisine." Some hearing the dynamic capabilities of all-horn speakers even go so far as to stir the notion of "exaggerated dynamics," and that pretty much hits the nail on the head with regard to the importance of context, and how things can get "distorted" here.. For the sake simplicity, if we maintain ~98% of all audiophiles to use direct radiating speakers, would that reflect a consensus into what has the biggest sonic potential, not least compared to a live acoustic reference? Now let this question seep for a while before you go vicious on the keyboard. I’ll cut to the chase however with my take on an answer to this by saying: no. Is this a way then to disqualify or deflate much if not most of the vitriol against "horn" speakers? In a way, yes, because in most cases we aren’t really addressing horn speakers qua horns, but instead hybrids that aren’t really this nor that. If we want to address horn speakers that truly are, let’s address them as such and not some watered-down entity that sits between to two chairs, and then go out and listen to some bloody all-horn speakers to know what they can be. Whether conical or curved, old or new, I’d advice to rid oneself of prejudice and expectation, even habit, and let them have their shot, so to speak. In essence: the controversy surrounding "horns," as I see it, has more to do with misinformation, confusion of definition, convenience and habitual bias than any actual assessment of a pair of true horn speakers. I don’t mean to blast those who do not prefer them, but would rather be without theory-laden and reductive arguments that seeks to ridicule them as a whole. I that regard certainly, let’s not beat the bushes.. |
While I appreciate the theoretical discussion, how about some perspective on the sound? What specific systems or drivers/components have you all heard and either liked or really disliked? I have been listening to a system with three G.I.P. field-coil drivers: 18" woofer, WE 555 clone midrange compression driver (feeding a YL horn, and a WE 597 clone tweeter. This is among the nicer sounding horn systems I've heard. I have heard MANY systems using YL horns and drivers, IPC compression drivers, some RCA drivers and WE drivers that I have also liked a lot. These were all custom builds. In my own system, I run a WE 713b compression driver and a 12025 sectoral horn, and a fostex bullet tweeter and twin 12" drivers in an Onken bass reflex cabinet. I suppose this is a horn hybrid system, but, it is at least reasonably efficient (99 db/w) and I run it easily with a 5 watt pushpull amp. I have heard a few commercial horn systems that sounded quite nice, such as an EdgarHorn system and Cessaro system. I also liked, with some reservations, the Avantgarde duo and trio systems I've heard (bass was a bit uneven and not well integrated). |
Would agree horns match best with horns making a hybrid system is a compromise. Full horn loaded systems are rare mostly due to size and since rare not many experience them. I have people fly in from many parts of the earth to hear mine. I have built owned so many horn systems over the years and at this time have 3 all front loaded horn systems running many are stored- one uses a 20ft long 900lb front bass horn- one just a giant RCA front horn -also using pair of RCA Shearer horns and a pair of community leviathans with 515 and TAD mid all systems use combinations of vintage and modern though I can and have run many stock to get a idea what they were originally capable of. Since much of front horning is done by DIY types I have heard greatness but also ignorance in some set ups. But even those who bumble are learning and knowledge is well worth pursing. I do know that today hands on is kind of shunned most today just want to drop in local shop or open amazon and get instant gratification. So I never expect front horns to become popular but they sure can perform and I do think that some will always be after this performance aspect since most other designs do not equal it or do not supply it due to size and cost constants. The market demands small similar designs and that is what buyers get. The market does not demand giant horn systems but that doesn't negate what these types of design are capable of. Today if one wants better than average one must seek it out and that takes a bit of effort that today most do not care to do. |
phusis-{
In essence: the controversy surrounding "horns," as I see it, has more to do with misinformation, confusion of definition, convenience and habitual bias than any actual assessment of a pair of true horn speakers} I agree -I would also add that disinformation on horns is also put out by audio dealers and manufacturers to shill products and self promote own designs. |
I think that an all-horn system would be ideal, but as a user of a hybrid system myself, I have to say that it can do a very good job as well. Consider that with the one compression driver covering all of the treble and midrange, it already has an advantage in coherence, and the bass provided by the direct radiating drivers in my system seems to blend in very well. I think that there must be many other hybrid systems out there that do a good job as well. |
Johnk, You are correct that very few have heard a full horn system that include front loaded woofers. I agree they are terrific sounding. But, they are rare because they are impractical, not because they don't deliver the goods as far as sound is concerned. I am looking at a hybrid system using an open baffle woofer and even that is WAY too big to be really practical. |
larryi practical isn't what audiophiles or audiophiles system are about. Many front horns can be placed near wall or corners so take up less usable room sqft than standard audiophile fare of monitors on stands pulled out into room. My giant community leviathans use up the same space as my slim fostex towers did. Many OB designs would require more usable room sqft than front horns since it requires distance from rear wall and proper baffle size to produce useful low frequency most greatly undersized and under-build OB designs and look at it as a quick easy fix when in reality they are anything but. A OB needs to be greatly overbuilt or they become sound boards much energy wraps around baffle edges you can easily feel it when music is played. Also drivers in OB designs rock baffles with cone movements most OB I see do not address this and many place tweeters and mid on such unstable baffles. Not saying OB or hybrids are not viable or that one can not get good sound out of its just sub-optimal when used with horns. |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrxwudn7C4w&t=2327s Siegfried Linkwitz is complaining about conventional designs and he even is holding up a model of a conventional ported monitor complaining about its design one would have to be daft to think he is ripping on horn tech I would suggest if he gives this link so much regard he should buy one of his madisound kits. phusis said earlier {In essence: the controversy surrounding "horns," as I see it, has more to do with misinformation, confusion of definition, convenience and habitual bias than any actual assessment of a pair of true horn speakers} if the shoe fits. |
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Siegfried Linkwitz is the guy out there making foolishness out of all the "narrow dispersion is good" silliness. Maybe it's good in a PA, but not a living room. This crowd here deliberately avoids and ignores anything that disagrees with their OPINIONS. That's the source of this controversy.I'd be careful about making the association between 'narrow dispersion' and 'all horns'. I've had various box and planar speakers; my current setup uses horns and images as well as anything I've heard. My living room is about 15' wide. |
Whatever Klipsch was thinking about when designing the current version of the Heresys, they got it right. I'm sensitive to coherence in speaker systems as that's the most important quality for my tastes, and these speakers are absolutely coherent, as well as having great dispersion qualities…better phase plugs? Better horn throat design? Better care in manufacturing as Hope, Arkansas wants to spread happiness everywhere? I've said before that the way speakers actually sound is important to me (!), and I'm picky about this stuff. |
Reminds me of the Rolling Stone review of a great Neil Young album years ago (I think it was "After the Gold Rush")…they utterly panned it but later it was recognized as brilliant and sold a zillion copies. Somebody wrote in and thanked the reviewer for saving him from wasting any more than the many hours he'd already spent enjoying the album. So yeah, sorry but those La Scalas gotta go man…they're an insult to all things Linkwitz. |
@kosst_amojan -- Siegfried Linkwitz is the guy out there making foolishness out of all the "narrow dispersion is good" silliness. Maybe it's good in a PA, but not a living room. This crowd here deliberately avoids and ignores anything that disagrees with their OPINIONS. That's the source of this controversy. You're trying to make factual a supposedly overriding sonic flaw with horn speakers with reference to their dispersive nature of directivity - because you heard all or some of them and suddenly finds it a compelling conclusion to deliver? Or, because it's a convenient (albeit irrelevant) theoretical stance that requires little on your part? Why is narrow dispersion a bad thing with speakers in domestic environments? Edge diffraction - does it occur with all horns, and to what extend does it really matter going by actual auditioning? Does any sought theoretical explanation correlate with your actual listening experience in this regard, or rather: how would it? Any other theory-laden straw man you care to pull from your magic hat? There was a time when you indulged - to a limited extend, one might add - in this discussion from an outset of actual LISTENING experience (the only thing that matters, right?), or to give it a chance with a range of or certain horn speakers, which in fact always comes down to OPINION. So please, don't try and direct this to where the proponents of horn sound avoid the arguments of anyone in disagreement, but rather see it as a reaction to any want of equating horn sound as a whole with a factually based flaw - one based on theory, no less. This is becoming trite. Move on. |
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I do think the Heresy IIIs aren’t so great for near field listening, but then I also think anybody but an idiot knows that (I recommend smallish KEFs with concentric tweeters for near field as they’re cheap and sound better than most "pro" monitors). I’m maybe 9 or 10 feet from them with some toe-in…perfect! Ya gotta get yer toe in. Although I am going to try a couple of stands that raises them up a foot or so to get the bass driver off the floors and the tweeter at ear level…they’re now up a couple of inches as I have them on butcher blocks with Vibrapods under the speakers, and using the upward angling bases…having them on the floor of course reinforces bass, but I use 2 REL subs so bass is covered…the Heresys go to maybe 58HZ before dropping off considerably so subs are necessary for my tonal needs. Note that I feel these things don’t beam much at all anyway, and I’ve used sophisticated speakers with dome tweeters that seemed to beam more than these do…so there, horn deniers! |
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I do think the Heresy IIIs aren’t so great for near field listening" @wolf_garcia , I can't say for sure about the Heresy III but the HI and HII are great for near field listening, IMO. I think that is what I am most intrigued about these speakers. In both my rigs(Heresy I and Heresy II), I sit at one corner of a 6' x 6' x 6' equilateral triangle and feel truly immersed in the music. Great imaging and soundstage with plenty of thump. Bill |
My Heresy III are about 9 feet apart... the sweet spot is in the middle 10 feet away, but i often sit in the corner about 7 feet away and the soundstage is still huge and the imaging is very good. They are toed in just a bit and it actually sounds pretty good no matter where you sit. The room is 17 x 15 , these speakers are the perfect size. After many small monitor / sub systems I am really enjoying these .... the mid bass impact and the way a bass guitar or kick drum sounds through these is impossible to achieve with small drivers. I've owned many fine monitors and they just can't get the lower registers right. |
By "near field" I mean something like the monitors I use for recording that are right there above the desk a few feet away…but otherwise, 6' does seem like it would work with Heresy speakers from any era and man, the immersion thing just sounds cool. I also like the 12" speaker in these things and wondered what its impedance is as I could stick a guitar speaker in there for fun…a pair of old JBL K120s would look bad ass, but I assume the Heresy III woofer was designed for that speaker specifically (I was told it's by Eminence, who make a zillion different drivers including a supposedly 400 watt 15" I have in a bass amp). |
Kosst_amojan: i have an architect who knows what he’s doing. We are not going full blown passive house, and there will be an air exchange system. Windows will open and close, etc. That said, tighter buildings are the future. When we started out, our house was twice as efficient as required by code. Code is catching up, now we are only maybe 25% to 50% more efficient. |
I don't post often since these forums tend to be way to opinionated. Listening to music is as individual as choosing your spouse, pet, car, etc. and I wished everyone would simply understand that. Anyway, I owned an Edgarhorn Titan system for 13 happy years. I got intrigued with the dynamics in music as that is what I hear live and nothing does dynamics like a properly designed horn system. In a word, they can be a lot of fun if you take the time to get them set-up properly. I started the horn journey with a pair of Avantgarde Duos and I could not get the bass to integrate as a hybrid. My room did not mess well with them but that was me and nothing to say bad as they still have a loyal following. Take a look at the gallery page on Avantgarde website and note that the Asian/European crowd love them. Still intrigued by the dynamics, I attended 2004 CES and heard the Edgarhorns with an 845 Cyrus Brennaman SET amplifier rated at 45 WPC. Bruce was playing some classical music (and other) with an analog set-up and people in the room were simply entrenched...including me. No one was leaving the session and the room was full. One couple was wiping tears from their eyes. I have never witnessed that again at any show and likely never will. It was all about the music when done right. After owning them, I did some mods. over the years and my favorite driving amplifier was a 45 Jeff Korneff SET. It will always be with me that the heating vents in my 15 year old house would shake using a 2WPC amp. on those few of times I would get up the nerve to let them roll. I sold them because I simply got tired with my space constraints in a 15 X 20 room and the careful amount of set-up due to noise floor restrictions of the 107 DB efficiency. In a larger room they would have been a world beater. Don't take these comments that horns are a bad design but can be if not done proper like every speaker out there. They just take more attention to space and more time to perfect. They do some things way better than anything else made especially if you like dynamic swing to the music. I found them a pure joy and will never regret owning them. Once again listening to music is a personal thing so those that don't like horns please remember there are plenty that do. In the end, to each his own. |
Ran a few JK 45 SETs nice amps I also had a AG Duo 2.2 and had issues with bass integration so moved on to fully horn loaded systems.. Audio play back has so many variables and to me that is great it allows many options. I would say that horns can be used in smaller rooms if designed and or set up properly for such use. I have done so for decades and have giant room and smaller room horn systems. |
Interesting
thread, I stumbled across while looking for information and thoughts on LaSacala
II's as I am thinking about buying a pair. Previously I owned a pair of Heresy II's,
one of the few I bought new. At the time I was running all ss gear, Classe’ DR5
& Perreaux 3150. They suffered from the fatal 'fatigue factor'. I suffered
for some time with them and thinking it was the speakers fault I eventually
sold them off and replaced them with QC-10's which remained my main speakers
for years.
Base was
there, improved by keeping the subs from the Hawks with them, mid and highs
were clear and spot on, a very nice surprise. Wondering if they can be improved
I went with the Crites crossovers and new tweeter. Unfortunately, I upgraded
both on the pair and I was somewhat disappointed with the result...something
was missing that was previously there. In retrospect I wish I had done either
the crossover or tweeter and then listened before completing it.
My $0.02 |
The Heresy IIIs do need, for my tastes anyway, a good sub to make a full range system. I use 2 RELs I already owned when I bought the Heresy IIIs, and they took some time to adjust as they were getting significantly less signal from the amp as the Heresy doesn't need more than a watt or 2 to get going. I'm in the "all speakers should work with all music camp" as music specific speaker design would be ridiculous (except for ultimate level limits) because classical, heavy metal, and those middle eastern monk yawning albums all need the same mojo coming to your earballs. I mix live shows and use the same speakers for the Baltimore Consort or Julian Lage. Heresy IIIs are coherant, exacting music reproducers, I'm never thinking while listening to them that they're horns, they can expose flaws in your rig or a recording if there are any, and they have surprised me with their tonal accuracy. I think everybody should drop what they're doing a buy a pair immediately. Get a pair, as they say. |