As just another way to build a loudspeaker system why such disputes in forums when horns are mentioned? They can solve many issues that plague standard designs but with all things have there own. So why such hate? As a loudspeaker designer I work with and can appreciate all transducer and loudspeaker types and I understand that we all have different needs budgets experiences tastes biases. But if you dare suggest horns so many have a problem with that suggestion..why?
Ha! Ha! You really don’t get it do you? - how does it feel? It’s obvious by you taking the time in posting such.
F.Y.I. Are you a diehard believer go to type of guy from what reviewers say - if so LOL! Do they keep you in business with their accommodation discounts - no! How many owners are there on ANY forums and in the WORLD with this set-up? Take the time giving it some thought asking yourself why because I can tell you it has nothing to do with cost.
The Devil has horns…as do cows. And my cars and motorcycles. I actually swapped out a buzzy little horn thing on my 2012 Bonneville for a horn loaded horn. Way louder. Doesn’t that mean anything? Discuss.
Many assume horns are good for high SPL use only many assume they all need massive amount of SQFT to house and get integration many assume all horns are plagued with coloration or have no ability to image, or that horns for audio use are rare costly hard to source and not being produced in large nums but if you read reply's from owners and other audiophiles you can see most all of the passed about as facts on horns are wrong.
I don't hate horns, but I find there dispersion characteristics to be very different on and off-axis. If you tune them for on-axis listening then they are muddy off-axis. If you tune them for off-axis listening, your ears will bleed when you are on-axis. So, when properly tuned, they can be good on-axis, but they do not make good speakers for wide-field listening.
The sound of any speaker, including omni directional drivers, is always better "on axis" because the stereo image is right, all conventional drivers beam some anyway, and phase plugs and proper modern horn design is about dispersion to prevent extreme beaming. Any speaker manufacturer that says their speakers sound great anywhere in the sound field is hyping their stuff, because it just ain't so since the closest speaker is always louder (see "Garcia's Second Law of Nearness," Merkle Press $4.50 plus shipping.). The "little" horns in the Heresy IIIs seem to disperse as well as the conventional tweeter speakers I have around. In fact, a little test of "realistic" (by my standards anyway) sound is how a speaker sounds from nearby…not in the direct field like when I’m in the adjoining part of the sort of "great room" where my gear is (making another martini or curled up in a fetal position weeping quietly), and the Heresy’s sound like, "hey, there are musicians over there doing something." Also note that some designs feature the fact that they "beam" higher frequency tone at the "sweet spot" listener as a way to limit wall reflections. Who cares what the speakers sound like from the side anyway? The dent on the couch from my butt where the system sounds best is there for a reason.
I'm listening to a movie with the Heresys and my sub and it sounds awesome..... was listening to Joe Bonamassa at Albert Hall... sounded "live" i am really loving these speakers.
With all loudspeaker designs you compromise. Perfection does not exist in anything so since nothings perfect,designers take these imperfect parts and make a imperfect loudspeaker. We set it up in a imperfect room play imperfect music from a imperfect source and we use our imperfect mind and ears to sort it all out. I do think people assume perfection is possible and are in a bit of denial about how crude it all really is. I find imperfection to be comforting since it allows choice learning and variation. So embrace the imperfections in your system work to get synergy make compromises that work best for you. If horns are not your thing good that hopefully means you found your thing if still searching consider giving horns a try set up a system with craigslist cast off if you hear + maybe pursue if not you can sell and get cash back plus you learned something and that cant be bad right?
“Efficiency just isn't as important as it used to be.”
This is not my entire argument about efficiency, but as someone who is insulating his 2200 sq ft home to the point that you can heat it with a hair drier, efficiency definitely matters for reasons other than audio, such as carbon footprints.
I had my heart broken by quite a few horn loud speakers. The promise of heaven. Some of them really come out and grab you, then you are left alone with that hollow feeling wondering what the h$%^ you were thinking. Oh well
that goes to say with NUMEROUS speaker designs and audio related gear in general.
Speakers alone are very personal and subjective, once you find one promising you then need to match with associated gear including cables, not just anything! - lets not forget your room which is also very important along with power source - so many factors come into play. Put a nice speaker and associated gear into a crappy room, it will sound crappy for example.
I have experienced over the years listening to allot of owners systems that personal flavor has allot of similarities to comparing too food taste - some like it boring - mild - hot and suicide hot! I respect all and can except and appreciate and why it's so personal.
I don't understand nonsense posts which comes across as only trolling as you have done in several postings, you being in the business you should have knowledge and be experienced enough to know such, to me only demonstrates your lack of credibility. Also it' absolutely laughable when I read individuals making up their mind, relying on such or trying to influence others upon listening at shows and saying it's this or that like you did with your ridiculous posting that you deleted - come on give me a break, so full of bs!
You have to live with what ever it is - speakers being the worse due to break-in time. Drivers not properly integrating for example - I can go on
I recently got rid of a pair of expensive Wilson Benesch speakers (G E O M E T R Y S E R I E S), without mentioning the actual model. I found I initially liked this and that (others came over to listen but only once they had allot of hours on them and I did not hear sonic changes) because the sound was new to me but I also found areas that I did not enjoy to the point of not listening as much as I would normally. You won't read anywhere me bashing them because I know it's subjective and personal. Put back in a pair Avantgarde XD series horn speakers not mentioning model but recall saying to myself yes this is what it's prefer, others whom had already heard also confirmed the horns were their preference too and they do not personally own this type of design. So who is right or wrong? No one, pick your poison and build around them.
Audio in general can be a never ending journey chasing your tail sorta speaking but as long as you are listening to music in the end that's what it's all about. So enjoy!
Soundsreal if you change your you to I then I agree that is how you feel about horns and maybe you have a love hate thing going on. While I have owned a few horn systems that maybe were not the best for long term use. I tend to think a good amount about what I buy and since I have had so much hands on I know what works for me and how to get the best out of it once installed into a system. I tend to use loudspeakers that work best for the system synergy goal I have in mind and many times they are horns but not always. A horn is a tool and is just part of a total system.
After a couple of weeks with my Klipsch Heresy IIIs, I can say without a doubt that they are great speakers. Partnered with well designed other crap (specifically wires, gizmos, doodads, tweaks, etc.), they sing, and I think the woofer is loosening up (Emincence drivers in my experience, mostly with bass speakers, take a bit to get their mojo…I have an Ampeg cab with a retro 15 that needed prodding)…I put them on 1.5" or so butcher blocks with my Vibrapods (previously used with my Silverline Preludes), and listen to them using my ears.
Hey Wolf, I'm glad you're enjoying the Heresys..... I've had mine about three weeks too and they sound great.... I agree , these are great speakers , especially for the money... their strengths far outweigh any shortcomings they may have. Enjoy yours , I know I am.
Eminence…spelling error. I'm bi-wiring the Heresys for no reason in particular except that I had the wire already there from other speakers, and I'm thinking about stands to get them up to my ear level although that might not be worth it…they're sort of cool on the floor…fun…they're fun...
Wolf, glad you are enjoying the Heresy IIIs. Oddiofyl said it exactly : " Their strengths far outweigh any stortcomings they may have ". And yes, you too : " they’re fun ".
The day I met The Doctor aka Mechans, the intent was to go shopping for new stereo equipment to replace his so-called out of date 1980s audio system. He ran a pair of Klipsch Heresy loudspeakers, and as I listened, asked him, "Why would you want to replace this?!?"
I also told him to run, not walk away from this money pit of a hobby. A big reason was the sound of his system already reached a highly enjoyable place. Obviously, he didn't listen...
WOW! I see you getting defensive now with your comments - anyone that's on meds and needs to take another one would be you, just goes to show anyone reading your true colours. You post ridiculous non true statements - all you are doing is trolling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmmm I never owned a pair? - ha! ha! Sorry you are wrong I did. Suppose I never owned a TechDas Airforce One table or MBL 101 Extremes - or Vac Statement mono blocks and pre and phono and can go on and on either - you have no clue!!!!
james_w514 Why? I have nothing to prove - would likely say they weren't mine anyways. Ha! Ha!
One can easily look into my previous postings along with feedback sales seeing some of the items sold listed over the years.
I'm replying to his idiotic troll replies and lasts sarcastic remark - can't wait to see him in person at next years RMAF, I'm sure his tone will be different and I'll bring him some meds LOL!
The latest Stereophile compared a few of the better rated monitors against a unnamed Altec horn and reviewer mentioned the Altec besting them in many ways.
Sorry for my English , i want to share my speakers design knowledgeable as a speaker designer. Mostly all high efficiency LS get few main issues , First, Whizzer cone driver is not perfect to produce highs , but it can be solve to add supertweeter , Second-- bass is too weak, but also can be solve to add active bass module. Next is more problematic -- deficiency upper bass and midbass. There are call baffle step . it can be solve ,mechanically by make very big baffle like some Voxative LS, or make big Midbass Horn, Is very complicate to make flat frequansy response for Horn design. It is reason why a lot audiophile don t like Horn application, Too much coloration. But there are another way , to solve midbass problem and keep efficiency the same by adding active midbass driver cover frequansy up to 700 hz , So you amp will be loaded only for wide range and sypertweeter.
I'm a speaker designer too and I listened to a horn/hybrid system for 10 years. (TAD 15 inch woofer/TAD horn and tweeter).
There is nothing wrong with horns as a high end loudspeaker. I even used mine with ss amplification.
The distortions levels from using the compression driver (in my case) were incredibly low. I'm talking about distortions due to operating the drivers at 2 percent of what they were made to do in terms of spl, or something equivalent.
That said, I've gone back to cones and domes and I don't really miss the horns. There are pluses and minuses, but properly made they are a 100 percent valid approach toward a speaker.
@oddiofyl - The Lowther DX4 driven Concerto at 22k is a complete speaker pair, that are mesmerizing with good to great electronics . Adding custom veneer is strictly cosmetic and is expensive due to the nature of the design...no squared off boxes here! They can be ordered in any color, and a number of solid hardwoods for the speaker mount, for decor matching. The Voxativ as a "better" driver is more about a sound preference than an improvement. Sure it’s 5x more in cost than the Lowther DX4 but "better" is arguable. I have listened to both and prefer the Lowther to the Vox hands down! So to each his own...
@mapman - Yes the Charney Audio line are works of art that sound fantastic. Beautiful to look at for sure. Every time a friend or family member walks into my room there is always the obligatory "Oh wow these are beautiful" Followed with a close inspection of the impeccable workmanship, and look around with a host of questions. Each of his designs go through hundreds if not thousands of hours of listening and tweaking before release.
@johnk - You would have to contact Charney to discuss how he came about to build the Concerto. Charney was a long time owner of the Carfrae Little Big Horn but had always felt that integrating the bass was problematic. So he purchased a C&C machine and dove into the tractrix theory. The result is on his website and the horns he builds. Each of the designs are built to support the drivers used. None of them need subs, but room size does come into play, as it does with just about every other speaker out there. Each design creates an exceptional 3D landscape with clean clear highs, sublime mid range, and bass (oh the bass) is deep and articulate. Charney horns couple with the room when properly set up. This doesn’t take long and once done there are no room nodes! Treating the room is done to taste. Fact is that I removed some treatments and the sound improved.
Not trying to sell anything here just being informative. Heck it took me a few visits before I committed to the Maestros. At first I was awed at what I listened to. But the practical side of me took over and I needed more assurance. Like most of us I’m budget minded and had to figure a way to afford a complete system change and it was well worth the time and effort.
Worked with a good num of BLH designs. I mostly prefer front loaded horn systems over hybrids and BLH. But one can build a great sounding loudspeaker using BLH etc I just prefer full front horn loading and that can get large not all want, can afford or house such things. In my office system I can not fit a massive sub bass horn but do have pair of community leviathans front loaded to 70hz and I run a massive sealed bass system with it as a compromise that I can live with and greatly enjoy. In my bedroom I have a small pair of fostex BLH I place near ears for late night use. Still running 2 pairs of RCA shearer horns in main systems one using my massive sub bass horn and have one of my favorites in garage system waiting warmth a giant pair RCA front horns from late 1920s with modern drivers currently installed. Much of the rest is in storage or not in use and its to much to go into.
I bought my Heresys for their efficiency (used with my mighty 12 watt SEP) after a brief audition to see if I could stand the tone of these things…they seemed to sound nice enough in the showroom of the audio joint and although I use horn loaded PA speakers for shows (and own a small pair of 10" 2 way passive Mackies for my own amusement and monitor duties at shows if necessary), I haven’t owned horns for my home listening rig (my old Altec A7s were used for band gigs except for rare use as a stereo pair, or for background music between sets…loved those things)…The Heresys don’t necessarily "sound like horns"…they simply have a coherant and accurate clear tone that is non fatiguing and musical, and the efficiency is simply gravy…I have had to mess with the levels of my subs since the amp sends less signal to them relative to the mains, and the frequency "roll in" settings are different…but otherwise utterly enjoyable all around.
Kosst- {Since the horn market is a distinct minority in the larger hi-fi market, I'm clearly not the only one who doesn't like them. MOST people don't like them.}
Non sequitur
Every speaker type, manufacturer and model has it's advantages and disadvantages, as well as it's fans and detractors. I consider myself lucky; over the years I've been able to indulge my passion and curiosity to try all types of audio gear, including many speakers. I like horns and I also like not-horns in the same way I like BBQ'd beef and pork.
I suspect that many audio guys are turned off by horns for one of two reasons: 1- word on the audio "street" is that horns suck, or 2- many folks are used to high power SS amplification and high SPL. Some horns can handle and sound great with high power amps, but by nature of their design horns do not provide high SPL. Play loud, yes. Paint the picture of the old Maxell ad where the guy is being blown out his seat, no. This is not a problem for me since I have never been to a concert or live music event that sounded anything like, (for example) a JBL L100.
The best horn speakers I have ever heard (owned, actually) were a pair of Earo 8 active, single point source, rear horn-loaded speakers from Sweden. Stupidly expensive (but for the show special price) but these were the best overall speakers I have ever owned. Not the best at everything, but the best overall. To my ears, no other speaker has sounded as natural and organic as the Earo.
Similar, yet different is the new Rethm Bhaava speaker. It's made in India, is of very high quality, sounds fantastic and is very affordable. I was blown away by a recent demo.
I still own a pair of both Altec Lansing Model 14s and Bob Crites' Cornscala "D". Both have been modded - the Altec by replacing the xover and the Cornscala by replacing the standard 15" woofer with a Faital unit and twaeking the xover. Both speakers sound great in a small to moderate room, have wide sound dispersion, terrific imaging and no honkiness.
If you are into the classic Klipsch Heresy-type horn speaker I will advise you to look at ampsandsound.com. Justin undersdtands horns for small rooms and makes a great speaker. I owned a pair of custom speakers he made several years ago as prototypes. I never should have sold them.
Kosst{
Since the horn market is a distinct minority in the larger hi-fi market} Already proved this wrong JBL klipsch are still market leaders in sales. {I'm clearly not the only one who doesn't like them} that would be true- but this statement {
MOST people don't like them} A logic error how do you know this to be true? Just because you dont like something doesn't mean most do not this may be why you get grief in forums maybe consider logic in next argument and not personal feeling biases or absolutes. Also you seem to favor focal products but do know focal claims horn loading of tweeters back-waves.
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