As just another way to build a loudspeaker system why such disputes in forums when horns are mentioned? They can solve many issues that plague standard designs but with all things have there own. So why such hate? As a loudspeaker designer I work with and can appreciate all transducer and loudspeaker types and I understand that we all have different needs budgets experiences tastes biases. But if you dare suggest horns so many have a problem with that suggestion..why?
@kosst_amojan don't talk down JBL. I heard JBL K2 horn speakers at a show years back and they were great. I wanted to buy them but couldn't afford $10k. Of course, they have cheaper and probably non-audiophile speakers too.
Open your mind and ears and give a horn system a unbiased extended listen.. I think most never do so before they comment negatively and rely on hearsay and bias to form opinion.
Open your mind and ears and give a horn system a unbiased extended listen.. I think most never do so before they comment negatively and rely on hearsay and bias to form opinion.
phusis and johnk, So true. As in all pursuits in life, there are multiple ways to achieve very good results, although those results may exhibit different strengths and weaknesses that appeal to different tastes. To stand on a hill and fly a flag for one technology as "the ultimate" while defaming another just shows a lack of global understanding of the way different technologies evolve.
I couldn’t agree more. Even a term like “imaging” is very subjective, and depends on the program material. I currently have a diy system composed of front loaded horns that cover the entire audible range, all horn loaded (not a hybrid). It’s very similar to John Inlows designs on his website. Do they image well? It’s complicated.
Stereo separation is excellent. It’s a joy to let people hear “Get Lucky” by Daft Punk for the first time on these. They smile from ear to ear, and comment on all the different guitar parts that seem to come from all different angles. Same is true for Bohemian Rhapsody, and all the vocal parts.
Their presentation is different than anything else I’ve owned. Anything recorded in a large, or semi large venue sounds very convincing. The Trinity Sessions with Cowboy Junkies transports me right to that church where it was recorded, with all of its reverby goodness. Eric Clapton Unplugged is also very compelling on these. With large venue, and live performances, the walls in my room seem to disappear. Large orchestral arrangement sound great; jazz trios image well to my ears also.
If I had a gripe about imaging it would be in regards to recordings that portray an intimate setting. A solo vocalist with a piano or an acoustic guitar. It’s still enjoyable to listen to, but it does not sound like the person is sitting on a stool right in my living room. It sounds like a twelve foot tall presentation of that person if that makes sense. Is that good or bad? I don’t know. Depends on what you like.
Electrostats are also outrageously fun, but don’t image everything realistically. I owned a pair of Martin Logan ReQuests in the past, and had the privilege of listening to some of the flagship Quad ESLs that had been rebuilt. I loved them both! Pink Floyd’s DSOTM gave me goose bumps. But, again, when it comes to a solo performer it did not sound like they were right in the room. It sounded more like the Sound emanated from somewhere near the tip of my nose. That’s fun, and interesting, but feels artificial.
When it comes to solo performances, the most intimate, performer is in your room type presentation, some well designed back loaded horns are the best I’ve heard. A few very expensive direct radiators also. That being said, neither of these are my favorite across the board for all music style.
In conclusion, no one style of speaker does all things perfectly. I am having a great time with my horns, and don’t feel like they suffer from honky, coloration. All the components are made from 3/4 mdf that rigorously braced, so dampening doesn’t seem to be a factor. All my observations above are subjective obviously, ymmv. Keep the tracks spinning!
I design loudspeakers not just horns. I also collect restore manufacturer loudspeakers not just horn based. I do have a nice pair of Dynaudios I pulled out of my loudspeaker collection and just finished listening to for a few days in my main system. They have strengths one is imaging but imaging is thin airy on my horn systems image seems more solid and real but with a wee bit less detail. The Dynaudios emphasize issues on recordings and are very selective at what sounds great on them the horns just churn out near real sounding music no matter what genre emphasizing the humanity and soul of music. Still the Dynaudios are about 1-75th the weight of my main horns and that they are enjoyable at all and at that size is a bit amazing.Why I keep them. I have owned heard designed many dynamics and Dynaudio drivers are not as fatiguing as lesser types but after horns they do sound more like a music box less like a orchestra.
Hopefully if this thread continues there will not be any trolling, just satisfied and happy horn owners. However, maybe a new thread with a different title, saying something like " To all horn owners ". Enjoy ! MrD.
The issue of whether horn systems deliver proper "imaging" depends, in part, on what one considers important in that department. Most horn systems are physically large, and like a lot of other large speakers, they deliver a "big" sound. The sound seems to fill up a large volume of space and envelop the listener. I like this quality a lot. When one listens to tiny speakers, even when they play quite loudly, one can sense that the sound is coming from a small source and it does not seem to have realistic scale.
"
Open your mind and ears and give a horn system a unbiased extended listen".
I couldn't agree more! We all hear differently and have different tastes. I personally am not a fan of "A/B" tests, frequent switching back and forth between speakers; I much prefer spending some "quality time" evaluating "speaker A", then switching the cabling to spend "quality time" evaluating "speaker B", all with music you enjoy and are familiar with.
I enjoy all types of loudspeaker all have uses all one can make synergistic systems out of. Horns have strengths weakness like all things to ignore strengths and only focus on weak points is self defeating with a system made of multiple devices playing towards strengths is the best way to get synergy. The more you know about audio the better your system will be those hating on horn loudspeakers without really experiencing maybe missing out on one of the worlds greatest pleasures or may also be saving themselves pain and $ but for me I want to know and I am glad I try most everything. I found what I like in audio what performance aspects have the most meaning for me and I hope you will or already have.
… Most horn systems are physically large, and like a lot of other large speakers, they deliver a "big" sound. The sound seems to fill up a large volume of space and envelop the listener. I like this quality a lot. When one listens to tiny speakers, even when they play quite loudly, one can sense that the sound is coming from a small source and it does not seem to have realistic scale.
I wholeheartedly agree with the above. Being ’enveloped’ (a very fitting term here) by sound the way large horns can do while providing proper-ish scale is what really sets them apart from most others speakers, I find. Another aspect that is inherently linked to this sensation is that of effortlessness; it de-stresses the sound in a way that is both relaxing and more believable. Smaller, direct radiating speakers can sound "large" in a different, spatial way, but they don’t load the listening space in the same authoritative, solid and room-lock kind of way.
The most realistic sonic presentation of an orchestral piece I’ve ever heard came from a really good movie theatre system employing horns. Eyes closed it was astonishingly like listening to a full orchestra!
Non sound reinforced (i.e. simply acoustic) shows are far different from otherwise, and an acoustic quartet certainly does have "startling dynamics" to the musicians playing the instruments, and maybe anybody within 10 feet of them...but that's about it. In my sideline as a working soundman I've mixed hundreds of acoustic shows that DO have a clean system to run through...from the Baltimore Consort to John Renbourn to various jazz artists, and I love actually hearing those otherwise lost dynamics...through horn loaded systems of course (or phased arrays which also work). From a single large diaphragm condenser mic (classicial trios and bluegrass ensembles mostly), to multi miked whatever, the passion and dynamics of well played music is better when people can hear it, and well made generally horn loaded speakers make that possible.
I’ll agree with most of the above, and most of that is exactly why I dislike horns. I’ve never attended an acoustic performance that sounded anything like what I’ve heard through a horn system.
I don’t know the horns you’re referring to here, but like any speaker (principle) a given iteration could be less representative of live, acoustic sound, just like another could, conversely, be more favorable. What’s more surprising to me is reading this:
A quartet doesn’t sound room filling or enveloping. It doesn’t have startling dynamics. It doesn’t sound huge.
My first inclination is thinking you’re willfully obstinate here, because it goes quite contrary to my own impressions. No "to each their own" here, but more like: really?
The scale and imaging I find in the live performances I’ve heard is much more like the dynamic speakers I’ve heard than any horn.
Why I’d have to reiterate my prior question about which horn speakers you’ve heard, or which live concerts forms the basis for your statement. On second thought I’m wondering whether you’re mostly referring to the spatial aspect of the sound, and that this may be where your preference lies with speakers that aren’t horns, if it’s even a valid distinction between them. People may have different "filters" in regards to what they’re listening for at a live, acoustic concert (or any auditioning event for that matter), that could lead to a variety of different descriptions about the sonic culprits each individual is hearing.
I’m sure I’ll be jumped on because I’ve never experienced a live acoustic performance that’s sounded anything like what horns do. I’ve never heard any violin, clarinet, or kettle drum really sound huge or enveloping in any venue.
I’m more confounded than aggravated by your stance, and the part regarding "huge sound" needs some explanation: big horn speakers sounding "big" to me is about having proper scale and emulating a realistic sonic size, rather than sounding "huge" per se. Good horn sound is also about proper, uninhibited presence.
Once at a classical concert I attended (can’t remember which, but it was rather large scale, symphonic), I was thinking more elaborately about the problem of remembering how a live concert sounds, and how to recall that in front of the stereo at home for comparisons sake. It then occurred to me, at the classical concert, to close my eyes and in a way turn things on its head; I vividly imagined I was sitting in front of my stereo in that very moment, as a simple mind trick, and that turned out to be quite revelatory to me being that I suddenly realized what a live classical concert sounded like - in front of the stereo, no less! To me at least "bringing the home stereo environment to the live concert" is much more effective than taking a live sonic memory with you home. That said not with the intention of being lecturing, but simply a mere anecdote on how I’m trying to cope with live, acoustic sound as an ideal in a sense for what to strive for in reproduced form.
I have NOT attended a chamber music concert that sounded small in scale or lacked startling dynamics. But, I suppose that might be the case if one were sitting well back in a large hall (not they usual way I hear chamber works).
I believe " effortlessness " and " startling dynamics " are some of the qualities that live unamplified music brings to the listener, and ime, these qualities are captured, most honestly, by a good set of properly set up horns. Anyone not liking these qualities will not like horns. I completely disagree with kosst’s assessment, and agree with phusis that it is not " to each his own ". All live unamplified music, including kettle drums, have effortless dynamics, given one has the ability to sit close to the musicians. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel, I agree with that description, in particular, the word "effortlessness." I have tried to understand for years why a horn would display that characteristic, and I can only assume that as some who know a lot more about it than I do have postulated that it is because of the way that a horn couples to the air. I have 2 good direct radiating speakers that I listen to occasionally, and each time I do, there is a something missing in the feeling of openness, that makes me feel that the music is "here" instead of "there." I understand how personal these perceptions are, and that even if someone else perceived it in the same way as I do, they might not prefer it, but to me, it makes reproduced music sound more authentic in an important and very enjoyable way.
kosst, I understand that you feel strongly and in a negative way about horns, but it seems to me that if you understood that human perception varies in what makes music sound real to an individual, you would feel less frustrated and (it seems) annoyed at listeners who enjoy horns.
johnk, Good points, and I agree. I would also take issue with kosst's comment about horn speakers having "hyperdynamics." I'm not sure that that is even possible; although it may seem so after listening to many direct radiating or panel speakers.
I never heard any monitor or slim floorstander ever yield proper scale to musical play back or proper dynamics.I have only heard large loudspeakers approach realistic scale and dynamic range and some of those loudspeakers are horn based.I can see were such realistic images sizes and dynamics could overwhelm some rooms or those used to conventional playback. I understand that horns are not for everyone and I do not hate other loudspeaker types or there performance aspects. I feel controversy in horns is mostly due to bias and inexperience. If you have experience it’s just another loudspeaker type, if a friend wanted a pair it wouldn’t be a issue to talk them out of, if you have bias you troll horn posts and threads in forums, you try to talk others out of owning horns using bias as argument only to find others seeing through the bias and wanting to explore and learn for themselves. I am happy for anyone who finds what they enjoy is this audio hobby to me if it’s making you happy its working for you and that’s the end goal. But by refusing to fully explore available options due to preconceived bias is doing a great disservice to yourself.
Let us be clear, here and now, that on 12 / 1 / 17, at 12 : 08 PM, kosst says ( in a response to a post of mine ) " I can't say I've ever heard an ideally set up horn system in a residential setting ". Kosst, if you are ever in the central part of Florida ( Orlando, Daytona Beach ), you are welcome to come by. Anyone else for that matter. Enjoy ! MrD.
Going by your experience and the venues in which you’ve predominantly(?) heard "horn" speakers (again, most of them have likely been hybrids; not that this is necessarily a bad thing sonically, but it waters down the model of definition here), and being that this is mostly the pro-arena (i.e.: cinema speakers which uses mostly horn hybrids are usually not the worst representatives of "horn" sound, I find, but bear in mind they’re sometimes driven upwards of their limits), I’d say you may be in for a pleasant surprise with a pair of well-implemented, quality all-horn or horn hybrid speakers in a domestic environment. "honky, distorted sound" is nothing at all like what a pair of quality horn speakers will bring to the day, certainly not least when played at more moderate levels in a home, but if a sound that deviates from many if not most direct radiating smaller speakers by virtue of simply offering up a larger, more effortless, present and enveloping presentation, and that these traits are for some reason not to your liking, then I guess our case here must finally come to rest. However, I’m thinking you may be mixing up sonically detrimental artifacts from your overall pro-arena horn sound experience - where many aspects "come into play" to negatively affect the sound quality - with what are truly assets in quality horn sound reproduction in carefully implemented home setups. As for JBL, I’ve come to find their current 44-range, K2’s and Everest iterations to be overpriced, and I can tell you there are indeed much better (all-)horn speakers out there, and for less money - certainly going by my inkling for good sound.
I’m hoping you’ll some day be treated with a good demo of horn speakers in a home setting (let us know if an audition at poster @mrdecibel will eventually be arranged, and what you’ll come to find of it). I’d be glad to demo my own setup for you, but I reside in Europe (Scandinavia) and may not be the most obvious candidate.
I was questioning my tweeter's condition after my daughter wrecklessly cranked the volume and damaged a midrange so I decided to order Crites titanium diaphrams. They are excellent !!! Even better was Bob's customer service. Unbelievable level of passion for speakers and his customers. Crites Speakers has another loyal customer .
Anyone who things horns sound “colored” or lack imaging, or intimacy hasn’t heard a good horn system, period. First of all, most horn systems are not time aligned. This is bad for all of the above issues. My system is fully time aligned, and features the world’s best midrange, the RCA1443 field coil driver. It scales beautifully: Norah Jones is in front of me singing one minute, then the next a massive orchestra is playing. (not sure how to post a photo?)
No ‘cone’ woofer speaker will ever match the speed, realism, and scale that a well designed horn system can muster. The problem is that these are rare. Wheel Fi made great systems, but I don’t think they’re around anymore. Try them. Oswalds Mill is a joke. Their horns sound good, but the owner is a complete idiot. But that’s another story!
My vintage Speaker Lab 7's are a 4 driver speaker. Woofer, upper-bass woofer, wide mid-horn, horn tweeter. Horns are plastic and well-damped! Bought them cheap ($100) from Habitat - needed some large floorstanders for interim use. Boy, was I surprised at the high quality of SQ that the 7's produce! No harshness or horn "bite" - just smooth, enjoyable sound! Used with Bryston .5 pre/3B amp. Dynamic range is A+.
Sadly, you would have to visit Buckingham Palace (well not the actual palace, but quite close,lol) to listen to the H1's. Or in the vicinity of Norad to listen to a pair of Oris horns. Both to my ears are very good. Enjoy your music!
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
