So, I’ve noticed a flood of class D junk hitting the market over the last several years. They come from many different brand names from people you’ve never heard of before like "VTV", to popular Internet-in-the-know brands like PS Audio to famous names like Marantz. One thing they ALL have in common: the complete inability to find honest reviews online for these products.
For example, let’s take for instance the Stellar series from PS Audio. Class D junk with the usual attempt to improve euphonics with some kind of input stage. They call this scheme class AD, I guess to differentiate all the other brands that do something similar. However, you’ll never see a review site point this out; they’ll comment briefly on the design and then dutifully call it class AD afterwards as if it isn’t just a class D amp like many others.
Next, the reviewer will invariably lie about the sound. This lying usually takes the form of lying by omission. They’ll gush about how beefy and controlled it is, how neutral it is, how wide and natural the soundstage is, etc. What they WON’T mention is how lifeless, flat, boring and ultimately fatiguing they ALL are. The buyer who doesn’t know any better has to find that out for themselves while he slowly grows to distrust anything a reviewer has to say about anything. So, the only way to actually get value out of a review is to see if a certain amp has the positive attributes you are looking for while trying to painstakingly research any problems it might have because the reviewer won’t mention them.
In addition to the lies of omission, there’s the usual con of giving certain gear to certain reviewers who will appreciate / like the piece. That Stellar will NEVER be put up against a Dan D’agostino or a Pass for example. This could be valuable to the buyer to see how a lesser amp stacks up against a high end one, but it’s not, apparently, useful to the reviewers. Why? Why is telling the whole truth about amps -- all gear really -- taboo?
Just take a look at the titles of the 18 threads the OP has started. They're all "take-down" threads purporting to open the eyes of the rest of us.
i would echo 2leftears in his comment above
with the pandemic, more folks are on these forums than ever, so many have motives and biases that need to be seen for what they are...
if you see someone posting something controversial/ridiculous/crass, click their username 'details' and see what track record the person has, what he/she has posted, etc etc... can be very illuminating w.r.t. what type of person we are dealing with making the post
I've heard some nice Class D amps at shows which were $4K to $10K. I just read a review at SoundStageUltra.com of the Merrill Audio 118, $36K Class D amps versus Mac 1.25KW $25K amps. My best friend uses Channel Islands Class D amps for his difficult to drive speakers as that's what he can afford. I own all tube equipment but for my new $5K DAC which is superior to my 15 year old tube DAC.
@stereo5 I don't know about the early VS speakers but I've heard three of the top VS speakers over the last 5 years at shows and they are the best sounding speakers I've ever heard. So many people enjoy the VS 33s that I suspect your system was not synergistically compatible. I had a compatibility problem with an EAR 890 with my big speakers 15 years ago (6 12" low impedance woofers didn't mesh with the amp but works great with my 2nd system speakers with 6 10" higher impedance woofers).
You don’t seem to be fair in your assessment. You do a good job of tearing down class d, but you haven’t said how many that you’ve had in your home.
to your comment, my own impression is that the op in making his opening post had no intention of being fair... it was to vent his frustration and voice his bias against this class of amp... if he has heard good sounding amps based on this technology (as they do exist) he likely wouldn’t admit it - such is the territory when one has an axe to grind, we are all guilty of doing this from now and then...
You don’t seem to be fair in your assessment. You do a good job of tearing down class d, but you haven’t said how many that you’ve had in your home. For me, I’ve owned a few Class A amps, a Ton of Class A/B and recently went on a DIY Binge with Class D. I have built 11 Class D amplifiers from modules. In every case, I have changed to larger caps on the rails to as much as I could fit and changed out or bypassed any caps on the input. On 1, I added post feedback circuitry on the output. 2 of these ended up being very satisfying, a bit toward the warm side, decent detail and 2 were very good by anyone’s standard. The others varied radically in sound quality. You might not consider this high end, it only retailed at $15,000, but I do have an Edge NL10.2 at home now. My Pre is an SST Ambrosia, I’ve been building speakers for 35 years, so the speakers are mine. These amps are no different than any in the sense that they will be someone’s favorite and others won’t care for them.
For a comparison I have just connected two amp/speaker combinations to my preamp. My primary system is JBL M2s supplemented with a JBL Sub18 all driven by three Crown Itech 5000HD stereo amps. This is a horn based active system, class D, with enormous amplification. Adjacent to this system is one with a custom assembled enclosure with one Foster driver powered by a pair of Nextgear mono block tube amps. With suitable musical selections it should be interesting to listen for subtle differences. The goal is to put to rest any qualms I harbor concerning my horn, class D, JBL monster system concerning the finer points of musical listening beyond dynamics and bass which are incomparable in the JBL/crown.
I sold high end audio fo many years part-time, including Metaxas, Meitner, Mission, B+K, Musical Fidelity, Adcom, and many others. Although none of these were in the rarified atmosphere with Krell, Boulder, Audio Research etc., my observations will serve the purpose.
Many buyers approached the purchase with a preconceived notions usually based on reviews or advice form alleged audiophile friends. Rarely would they bring along vinyl or Cds they knew or worse ones with a limited frequency range, e.g. rock music.
My mainstays for demoing were well recorded female vocalists, large symphonic works, pipe organs with bass down to to 32 hz, and "fast" persussion, all to demonstrate the full frequency spectrum. Amazingly cosmetics played a major role with many buyers.
Those that made wise decisions understood the importance of balance, micro dynamics, timbre, and the ability to transport the buyer in to the performance which can happen with less expensive gear if properly matched to the rest of the system.
And then there were those who dismissed out of hand any design type or brand they had been told was inferior or assumed it was. Like our OP.
Unfortunately finding such truly independent individuals is becoming ever more difficult.
We live in an age of ever increasing globalism. Ever increasing propaganda, ridicule and bias against those that may be deemed to be an obstacle in the pursuit of ever greater profits.
You should see some of the responses in the various cable threads over the years.
Thanks for posting, it was a pleasure to read about your experiences. Now if only more posters were as considerate...
One of the fundamental conditions of being an “audiophile” is having strong opinions regarding sound and its reproduction. Each individual has preferences as to what sounds good to them as well as being influenced by many external inputs with regard to sound quality.
Class D versus Class A or A/B also has price point observations as well as individual bias. That does not even begin to address tube versus solid state amplification discussions. Not to mention various DAC versus vinyl arguments.
I would suggest that totally neutral amplifier reviews can be found. Class D aside, our own CamaroSS has had a four year running review of amplifiers and other gear that is beholding to no manufacturer or typology. I would argue that Class D has its own niche in amplification that some may prefer and some may not. Both sides have points to make, but at the end of the day they are different. Class D aficionados need their own neutral tester who loves to swap out gear and share their observations with like minded people. Someone not paid by anyone. The only possible downside might be the resale value for used gear, but that can be overcome for everything but the newest gear by starting with lightly used equipment.
Fighting over what is “better” is a fools errand and no one will have a strong opinion changed, it is just not productive. It would be like me disparaging high end “box” speakers because I am a dedicated Maggie owner. Not to mention my preference for a tube preamp versus solid state. Then there is my choice of McIntosh electronics that please my ear, while others have strong opinions that differ.
I feel like I could very accurately estimate the OPs demographics and age just by the “tone” and “imaging” of his threads.
Pouting about lesser audiophiles thinking that they’ve gained access to some secret club that requires a decoder ring and minimum spend is pretty rich, even for this place..
I also find it reallllllly special that I get moderated all the time here, but people like OP do not.
This a hobby, a passion for some and it makes our time on earth richer.
The hardware is a tool we must have in order to make it all happen.
This passionate love of music is not a competition.
I find it disheartening to read posts that are declarative statements expressing some point of view that often sound like veiled anger or dissatisfaction with the very thing that brings us together as a forum of like minded souls with a passion for the musical arts. Let’s celebrate our hobby and passion and move beyond the petty stuff.
By the way I have had class D amps that did a pretty good job at their price point ( Jeff Rowland 525 mono blocks ) but moved on the Pass labs class a-ab and now listen to twin Jeff Rowland 625 S2 A-AB amps that sound very musical and fluid to my hear, budget and meet my expectations.
I think the ops "rant" is quite possibly born out of the same reaction that people with $200K+ sports cars had when they came to the realization that some "lowly" pleb, with a $50,000 Tesla Model 3 could clean my clock at the light. How dare someone with less earnings than me be able to "beat" me. ME! Weirdly this afflicts even those that can't afford that $200K sports car. They are still strangely offended by the sudden removal of "exclusivity" of something expensive.
Let's face it, this spills over into the turntable \ CD-Digital argument as well. You may like your $10,000 or $20,000 or more vinyl setup, or perhaps you just envy having one, but I guarantee that a well designed DAC for $2,000 (or less), recreates a far more accurate version of what was recorded. I am not saying you will like that $2,000 DAC more, I am saying that it will recreate what was recorded more accurately, more faithfully, or whatever adjective you want to use. That fact offends some people, and as opposed to accepting it, they strike out and attack.
The op also makes the classic mistake of thinking everyone wants what he wants, which can have some relation to the above as well. Some people want and love accurate music recreation. Some (I would even say a majority) don't, though if they are an audiophile, the will profess up and down stomping their feet that they do, even though, in most cases, they have no clue what that sounds like.
I can't say I have been fond of Pass amplifiers myself, even though I have recommended them to other people. Pass even states he "tunes" the sound for each family, so there goes that whole neutrality thing out the window. So given that Pass intentionally adjusts the sound of his amplifier away from neutral, why do you insist they are the penultimate in amplification?
Sounds to me like the "old school" fighting the future:-) My grandapa used to do that...but he died:-) I have Moon 740P, 680D 820S, Niagra 5000PC and B&W 802D's with a pair REL 820s. Power Amps are a pair of NAD M22 v2 (900W @ 8 ohms, $3300.00ea) and a lot of expensive Audioquest interconnects and cables. Compared them to same components with McIntosh 1.2KW. In most areas the M22's were better, but I would say the Mc's were a little more euphoric...but not $25K more. The Moon 888's are $120K a pair...come on man!
Hmm, very interesting. I have Fostex TH900 modded for a balanced cable. I wonder how well these cheap units stack up to my Mjolnir 2 with NOS tubes. I think I'll read what this guy has to say...
The same reviewer had a new review out today saying the SMSL SH-9 THX-888 Headphone Amp at $289 was a better value than the Topping A9 at $500 and closer to the $3000 Benchmark AHB2. Both the AHB2 and the SH-9 are THX based amps.
The headphone stuff is crazy fun because of things like this. I am writing this as I listen to the great HPA4 with Meze Empy headphone, total bliss. Both, items I bought based on reviews and partially on a dealer recommendation on the Meze.
Could not demo the Purifi amp today but did demo the Persona 9H speaker.
He has not reviewed a wide variety of amps yet due to his location and costs. He is trying to get the Benchmark AHB2 to compare with the Keces S300. Read up on the Topping A90 headphone amp. I hope it gets to 95% of the Benchmark HPA4, if so, it is a giant killer in the headphone world.
After this post, I am going to demo the NAD M33 Class D amp and likely the Persona 3F speaker. I have to pay this dealer an invoice so he should be good to give me a demo even though I am not interested in buying either. I want to compare the Purifi with my AHB2.
@yyzsantabarbara Wow this reviewer actually tells the truth about class D (his review of the Keces S300):
If you are currently using a class-D amplifier and enjoy the hell out of it, then please stop here and go read some of my latest DAC reviews. If you are new to this or if you are curious about the best sounding amplifier topologies, then please carry on.
Ouch! Truth status: told. I think I'll pay attention to this guy.
Although I am not really a fan of Class D I am not ready to dismiss this technology completely. However I am in no hurry to embrace it either.
You are a fool to put any stock in the vast majority of audio reviews. Ad revenue is just the beginning of the myriad of problems present. The publication that claims to be the most pure is the one that I trust the least.
Why most reviewers find it necessary to ascribe some sort of monetary value to the improved sound of more expensive gear is beyond me.
I am guilty of chasing giant killer reviews. My new favorite reviewer is Soundnews.com from Hungary (headphone related). I actually bought 2 pieces last week based only on his reviews. After reading a lot of his reviews I agreed with this reviewer’s point of view on many things. So only based on the reviews, I bought a $500 supposed giant killer headphone amp and the other was a feature rich DAC (almost a giant killer). Which is supposed to be better than my existing more expensive DAC.
The great thing for me is that I own the giant headphone amp that is being killed with the $500 upstart. That is same quality but tiny price. So I can confirm for myself. However, I have a feeling this reviewer is going to be correct. I will be doing a headphone amp faceoff with a $3000 Benchmark HPA4 vs a $424 Topping A90 headphone amp.
In the non-headphone world, there are some giant killer products that are being put into giant systems. There are posts on A’gon about those experiences. A few weeks ago, some guy posted about putting in a Benchmark LA4 into his $100K system. I think he replaced a $20K preamp.
I am waiting on the next giant killer (maybe), more powerful Purifi amps. Not this first batch.
The real question when I read reviews is how discriminatory is the reviewer in question. Many times it would seem that the rave review, full of hyperbole,is given by the reviewer who perhaps doesn’t have a true standard that is high enough to guide him by. Or maybe he does, and that standard is still low enough that all gear he reviews not only meets the standard, but exceeds it. Personally, if I want to tear apart any piece of gear I have ever heard , at any price point, I can do this...as they all have their issues compared to ‘live unamplified sound’.
@madavid0 I have tested Genelec 8341A active speakers. They use class D amps. My old system was Dynaudio contours powered by Hegel H190 which I gave up to downsize. The Genelecs would be hard to best even by speakers ten times their price.
As a reviewer, here's my take, attempting to not assault the OP:
This is what can happen when people chase "giant killer" products. Put a bunch of them together and you do not get greatness. If a reviewer puts an inexpensive product in an upper end rig, the result is nowhere near the same as the guy with all "giant killer" components and speakers. The community is largely ignorant of such things, then blame the reviewers for not getting similar, impressive results.
Reviewers should point out such things, but some do not. It's not so much a "lie" as a different experience that does not translate necessarily. The problem is exacerbated when the budget audiophile believes that cheaper gear should perform on the same level as upper end gear. I believed it prior to reviewing, but once I got my hands on upper end gear the lie died due to overwhelming proof otherwise.
Its a case of existing in different worlds, and the experience of putting a budget component into a fine rig is vastly different than populating an entire rig with them. No lie.
Shall I stir the pot? Sure, why not? Imo, as a class, D is overtaking classes A/B and A. I just began a review of a new class D amp (not a value club loser), and to describe its performance as anything other than sensational at the MSRP would be... a lie. Sorry, not a "giant killer", i.e. sub-$2K, but a legit piece of fine kit. :)
Slightly off topic but nowadays a similar trend can be observed in reviewers whose primary medium is youtube. Many started off as refreshing alternatives to the more mainstream reviewers al’a Absolute Sound, Stereophile, etc., and were actually very honest, opinionated maybe but still honest, in the beginning. Once they become popular, the devolution goes like this ...
The reviewers starts off as a hobbyist and the reviews are honest and do not tend to ’lie by omission’. Pretty soon, the youtube channel takes off and they quit their day jobs. Now the pressure to keep churning videos every week or daily (e.g. Steve Guttenburg) starts mounting. You gotta pay the bills after all. Next comes the infusion of chifi reviews. But while they claim that the chifi component flavor of the week is a giant killer giving you the same performance at 25% of the price, they will make sure not to compare to the higher end products directly. They will omit any mention of long term reliability, or post sales service. Everything is a giant killer, everything knocks their socks off!
I feel that our last bastion of hope remains forums such as these. Reviews, whether by professionals or amateurs on youtube, should be taken with a truck load full of salt.
there are some good points being made about how high end gear is sold, and how ’professional’ reviews play a role in that...
... but i would also say that the stream of venom and anger in the op’s tone is pretty hard to take, certainly not very enjoyable to read...
we have all made mistakes trying things in this hobby, some fairly expensive -- it is up to us to be discerning and careful in how we gather info, process it, and decide how to act
If you said all amps (ditto cables, CD players, DAC's etc) under controlled conditions sound alike, just how popular would you be amongst those who are trying to earn a living selling them?
Not very, but you also wouldn’t be a good reviewer if you can’t hear differences between amps, cables, etc. If you think they all sound the same I feel truly sorry for you, and why are you even here?
And BTW, there is truth to the idea that there are mostly positive reviews because it’s mostly very good-sounding equipment that makes it to that point. I’m not saying there aren’t bad or otherwise useless reviews out there — there certainly are, but if something’s made it to the point of being reviewed these days it’s probably gotten plenty of good buzz precisely because it sounds pretty darn good. So it’s not really too surprising most reviews are largely positive.
"Why is telling the whole truth about amps -- all gear really -- taboo?"
Think about it. If you said all amps (ditto cables, CD players, DAC's etc) under controlled conditions sound alike, just how popular would you be amongst those who are trying to earn a living selling them?
How popular would you be with your editor?
How popular would you be amongst those who have invested large sums of money in the belief that they were paying for superior sound quality?
If you want to be popular, not to mention hold down your job, you better go with the flow.
History shows that to be the case. Martyrs only get acknowledged in hindsight, if at all.
Yes that is exactly the sort of lying by omission and also being breathlessly positive over everything being reviewed which makes professional reviews useless. We shouldn't HAVE to read between the lines and pick apart what's not being said.
How did I develop this hatred of class D? I didn't start out that way. I developed that outlook after numerous failed experiments. There was always an excuse, always someone breathlessly extolling THIS amp was the greatest, THIS one is the real deal, THIS one will change your mind about the topology, etc. All LIES. It would have been GREAT if the reviewers had taken on the burden of explaining the serious limitations of class D and how even the best ones will be fatiguing long-term, that way I could have limited my pain being sent down wrong paths for so long. I had to learn the hard way that I'm NOT the target market for cheap cost-cut crap sold at a massive markup to people who were led to believe that they found the secret super value club when in fact were just suckered into a class D scam.
It would be GREAT if reviewers could lead off a class D review with "As my readers know, class D amps are garbage for these reasons. Today we're looking at X amp to see if it can overcome the faults of the topology has been struggling with for decades." If the manufacturers don't like having their products lumped in with "garbage", then they should consider not releasing garbage.
Although this isn’t about Class D, I am in agreement with the OP regarding reviews. It’s what the reviewer doesn’t say that is most important. I aired a gripe about reviewer Greg Weaver reviewing every Von Schweikert speaker allowed to TAS for reviewing. IMHO, Mr. Weaver is a VS fanboy of the entire line. I bought a pair of VS VR33 speakers 7 years ago after reading his very flattering review of them.
I was extremely disappointed in them, actually hated them, and I took a bath on them when I was finally able to sell them. Yet, Mr. Weaver gushed and gushed over them. He said it was the BEST 15K speaker for only $3400.00. He does this with every VS speaker he reviews! I will never trust any of his reviews again and after re-reading the review many times, I came to realize he omitted the most important things regarding the speaker.
my question is why does the op read reviews if his mind is already all made up that class d as a category is sub par... reading reviews till cows come home won’t change that mindset... seems to me he is just venting and trolling...
Yes, and he's also trying to save us from ourselves. As Erik already pointed out he's posted provocative threads in the past. He's also well-known on at least one other forum under a different name. Same. Exact. Relentless. $hit.
Hey Madavid0:Replaced my Pass Aleph 0 with ATI 52XX class D amp which in turn was replaced by VTV Purifi class D. Each step was a definite step up. Preamps: McIntosh C47, Schiit Freya TT: Garrard 301 in Nantais base, Fidelity Research arm with hot-rodded Denon103 (Boron cant./wood body DAC: balanced Topping D90. Speakers Wayne Parham 4PiIf this does not meet your standards for resolution, too bad.
my question is why does the op read reviews if his mind is already all made up that class d as a category is sub par... reading reviews till cows come home won’t change that mindset... seems to me he is just venting and trolling...
my sense is that reviewers (or their publications) can have some subtle or not so subtle biases or commercial conflicts of interest -- but for their own reputation and durability as reviewers over spans of time, they need to be more or less accurate and call it as they see it (or hear it...) - negative reviews can be suppressed, or negatives can be stated in their choice of words with softer language than the strengths, so one does need to read between the lines sometimes
the most useful reviews are ones where the reviewer compares the review subject with popular or obvious competing products and highlights differences - this happens too infrequently... for the reasons mentioned above
I don’t know where you get your info or whatever super-duper lie detector you think you possess, but as a former reviewer I can tell you from many years of experience this is hogwash you’ve invented in your own mind to support your notion of some conspiracy theory that doesn’t exist — or at least not nearly to the extent you imply.
If the reviewer praises imaging it’s probably good at imaging but if he doesn’t mention imaging at all it’s probably bad at it. This is lying by omission and a tactic which seems heavily deployed against low-budget audiophiles.
This is also just a load of self-imagined, delusional crap. Reputable reviewers are not gonna potentially trash their reputation to misrepresent what they hear. If I happened to not mention something in a review it was because it was fine and not noteworthy relative to other characteristics that stood out more. Most every review I read has some mention of caveats or limitations where lesser or negative qualities are discussed. They might be lightly worded so as to not completely trash a product someone has usually worked very hard to produce, and this is done because reputable and responsible reviewers realize they’re not always right or infallible and that severe criticism could potentially damage or even drive a good company out of business. So yeah, you sometimes have to read between the lines a bit, but there’s a good reason behind that.
Sorry to pontificate a bit here, but sometimes uninformed and ignorant conspiracy garbage needs to be called out for what it is so it hopefully doesn’t unnecessarily poison even more minds out there. Peace out.
It’s not a matter of whether I agree with a review or not. The problem is that the reviews aren’t honest. For example, go to any hi-fi review site. You can always tell if a piece of gear is good at imaging or not if the reviewer mentions it. If the reviewer praises imaging it’s probably good at imaging but if he doesn’t mention imaging at all it’s probably bad at it. This is lying by omission and a tactic which seems heavily deployed against low-budget audiophiles.
Furthermore, I constantly see this phenomena of budget audiophiles becoming emotionally attached to budget gear, as if they found an amazing value club allowing them hang out with the big-dollar crowd. In reality they’ve just been marketed to successfully by cost-cutting manufacturers. This marketing scam is facilitated by the review sites which do nothing but feed into peoples’ confirmation bias. The reviewers should be telling these buyers what they are actually getting into honestly. No, there isn’t a free lunch club. There are some legitimate better-than-standard value manufacturers out there but they get swamped by the cost-cut marketing scheme, and these reviewers are complicit in this.
For example, take PS Audio. They make great gear. But they also market class D junk to budget-minded audiophiles. You will search in vain for any review which points out the drawbacks of class D, and often you’ll see lying about how PS Audio defeated those problems if mentioned at all.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
