If you listen to an orchestra and expect to hear the real thing, you’re certain to be disappointed. There’s no way you can come close to that experience with your equipment. An orchestra in your listening space is an impossibility. Therefore you have to adopt a “suspension of disbelief.” In other words, trick yourself into believing it’s the real thing. You have to bring your imagination to the equation. The degree to which you can suspend your disbelief, will determine how much enjoyment you get. Of course, the better the quality of your equipment, the closer you will come. With lesser forces than an orchestra, such as a few instruments or solo instrument or voice, the easier it becomes to approach reality.
Correct (natural) instrumental timbre and micro dynamics are the two aspects of reproduced orchestral sound most important for me. Putting those aside, one of the most commonly cited problems with reproduced orchestral sound is the inability of sound systems to reproduce the grand scale /size and power of an orchestra going full tilt. Of course, a large part of the blame needs to be placed on the limitations of most listening rooms’ acoustic capabilities; this, due to size, dimensions and/or poor treatment. Some of the resulting distortions of realistic sound staging have been described in the posts here.
It has always been interesting to me that the most realistic renderings of orchestral sound staging and the RELATIVE sense of orchestral power has been from sound systems that present the recording on a smaller scale. In most average sized audiophile listening environments, it is the smaller systems, those that give a mid to rear of the hall perspective that seem to create the most realistic illusions of orchestral scale and placement (side/side and front/back) of instruments. Some systems with speakers that may be too large for the room seem to create individual instrumental images that are too large within the size of the overall acoustic presented; with the result being a feeling of instrumental sections and individual instruments sounding crowded and without enough (natural) space/air between them. This creates a feeling of a kind of acoustic overload independent of volume level. Worse still, it can damage the music. Orchestral music in particular is conceived by composers with the blending of individual orchestral colors very much in mind. Instrumental sounds need to travel some distance to the ear before the individual timbres blend correctly to essentially create a new sound. I am not sure why, but the obvious negative effects of of mic placement which is often too up close seems to be compensated for to at least some degree by speakers that are appropriately sized, or have appropriate dispersion characteristics for a given room. ,
This is one of the reasons that why I love my Stax F-81 electrostatics so much and am willing to live with their limitations in the available volume and bass power departments. Very realistic and detailed mid hall rendering of soundstage and much smaller scale than my Maggie’s and, most important to me, extremely natural midrange and top end.
**** and let me tell you that much talent produces avibe and youfeel it and for the first time in my life it was like who the f--k cares about the sound it’s the fricken ..... **** Yup!
Know just what you mean. For years and years I had this habit of some time during a show get up and walk around checking out how it sounds in different locations. Started young, thought next time I will know where to sit. Dumb kid, like everything isn’t completely different each time! But then even after I figured that out it was still interesting to hear the differences. All these thousands of people paying big money, and some of them getting pure crap for sound.
One time, Steely Dan at The Gorge a beautiful outdoor venue on the Columbia River, was some of the most atrocious sound I ever heard! In some places. In others it was quite good. The sound guys were set up on a big platform dead center in front of the stage about 1/3 of the way back. I went and stood as close to them as I could get. Within maybe 10 feet of where they were standing in front of their big console.
The sound from there was the best I ever heard at a show! Audiophiles love to argue about soundstage being fake. Let me tell you, those guys had to be mixing for it because the sound there was total holo-3D! Rich and full and dynamic and smooth and balanced, everything you want it to be. For them. For the paying schlubs, some of them were treated to screechy dreck so bad I do not for the life of me know how they sit there and take it. But from the sweet spot, damn!
Years later I went to see the Eagles. This time there was no good seat. There was no good sound. I was in the bathroom getting tissue to shove in my ears. At some point they fixed something and the sound went to almost okay. But this is where we get to the thing about live music: It was the Eagles. Don Henley, Joe Walsh, Glenn Frey.... and I never saw them before and let me tell you that much talent produces a vibe and you feel it and for the first time in my life it was like who the f--k cares about the sound it’s the fricken Eagles!
I have so many memories of terrible sounding shows. Seeing the Dead in a hockey stadium from far, far away. Hearing Art Blakey at an outdoor show where the sound bounced around and made my ears hurt. Hearing the Colorado Symphony Orchestra from behind the stage (an in-the-round hall) and barely making out various sections. Hearing Simon and Garfunkle in Central Park from far enough away that the picnickers next to me were just as loud as Art's sweet voice. I won't go on.
I've heard great shows, too. But let's face it -- live music is an aural crap shoot. Give me a great system with a great live recording, and there's far less to overcome, sonically, than exists at many concerts.
unavoidably, our best equipment still acts as a filter to the live sound. but bits and pieces of the experience can be conveyed in variable proportions. in my experience the maggie tympani III speakers come the closest, without a bunch of special effects speakers in the room, all by their lonesome they produced a hemisphere of sound in the acoustically treated room, a cloud of sound if you will, that if i stepped into, it [the recording venue] became palpable to me.
Very thoughtful and probing responses. in my case I have to “talk myself into” listening in a certain way. I imagine myself in a seat in the hall not too close to the stage. The sound level there is not as overwhelming as it is up front. In that way, if the volume on my stereo is turned really high up the parameters become closer to what I hear in the hall. Of course, when the orchestra is playing loudly at full tilt, the sonic pressure is unmatchable. A large dose of imagination is necessary.
The seats have at the symphony are behind and below by 10’ the suspended mics used to record the symphony. I have some of the recordings made when I was at the concert. They sound exactly like I would expect given their location.. much more airy (not intended as a joke) without all of the people in clothing around me absorbing sound.
Orchestral sound is perceived by each of us at each performance from the seat we have purchased, not from the location where the mics are suspended from the ceiling, so acheiving a facsimile of our memory on playback is a work of imagination, not a realistic possibility. Even if your seat is directly below the mics, (which puts you in the front rows of the orchestra seating), you are hearing a different sound than the mics are getting suspended in space away from all boundaries, without the sound dispersing influence of the concertgoers all around you. And that ideal assumes the recording is a live to 2-track, unedited take of the concert using "set and forget" recording levels and spaced omnis or something approximating that. That said, it's still fun to try, and if you get a result that transports you back to the venue in your mind, you have reason to be a happy audiophile! Whether this system will be an equally effective "time/space transport apparatus" for other genres of music is another question altogether. It's always been my belief that the true measure of a system's "faithfulness" is its ability to expose the recording as it is, not to sound like you think it should.
It should be pointed out if you could recreate the actual event of an orchestra in your home someone would likely call the cops over the noise. A reasonable scaled down facsimile is all anyone needs in the home.
@frogmanI didn't suggest that. (Please show me where I did!) I asked you for more nuance on what you mean by realism -- and you provided it. I appreciate your additional thoughts. I agree with you that asking for complete and perfect realism isn't the way to go, and my comments thoroughly convey that in my posts, so if I misspoke, please forgive me.
hilde45, they are not opposed at all. So, you are suggesting that since absolutely perfect realism cannot be achieved that one shouldn’t at least try to get a good part of the way there? For me, realism means correct (or, as close to it as possible) reproduction of the timbre of instruments (tone and texture) and nuanced dynamic expression. Soundstaging effects come in a distant third in my order of priorities; they may be more important to others; but, for me those have little to do with the musical content. It is obvious to me that some pieces of equipment and/or combinations of equipment do a much better job of reproducing timbre and subtle dynamic changes than do others. So, according to you, since perfection in those areas can never be achieved one should simply not bother at all and throw in the towel. Makes no sense to me. Although, this would explain why some systems that I have heard sound so bizarre and so far removed from the sound of live music.
Of course it won’t sound like the real thing. Who would expect that it would? It’s a recording. I do, however, find it surprising that some are so willing to give up and not strive for as much realism as possible.
These points seem opposed. If it's obvious that a recording is not realistic, why is it surprising that some are willing to give up seeking realism? Can you explain what you mean by realism? It must be more nuanced than this, or it would seem foolish to seek something which is obviously not there.
@millercarbon said:
"Another time, sitting a lot closer more like center floor 10-15 rows back, that I could not do. Not then. Now? Different story. So nowhere near easy, but you can come awfully close. Come and listen. You will see."
This is what I referred to as the "Disney experience." It seems like MC achieved it and that it represents, for him, the ideal kind of realism. (Or perhaps the only kind of realism!) This is interesting both as a factual accomplishment and as the audio ideal for someone involved in the hobby for so long. @rwisem concurs with this ideal as the one he/she is seeking. @clearthinker hits the nail on the head with the key element in this -- the "massed violins" problem. (I would add that another possible indicator is distinct instruments, properly located, in the string bass section.)
Of course, if one closes one's eyes in a symphony to hear what standard their home setup should meet, then they're probably not closing their eyes in jazz clubs very often; nor are they listening to heavily produced music, either. Of course in film, this would translate as a very odd penchant for handicam documentaries -- no Spielberg or animated or other movies would be worthwhile because the sense of "realism" would be lost.
But that last point is probably countered by this one, namely that if a system can reproduce something like a symphony orchestra with seductive literalism, then it can easily play Steely Dan. That would be a fair point, I'd guess, but I don't know what those who *don't* care about realism would say.
But then there's @ghdprentice who reports that he actually upgraded his system and "lost the fidelity" while his "new system is much more musical for other types of music." Ok, so much for that last point about a literalistic system being able to do everything.
I couldn’t agree more with the OP. After every Concert I am always struck by the gap in realism between my systems and the real thing. Eventually I come to realize that the “Absolute Sound” criteria is ridiculous. Audio is essentially a conjurer’s trick-trying to trick us into believing that I am hearing the real thing. Since I am not some 18th Century Hungarian Prince, I can’t afford to have my own Orchestra and Concert Hall. So I have to settle for the conjurer and constantly try to tweak it. It is salutary to listen the real thing occasionally...I hope soon...to be reminded of the guy behind the curtain
The key reproduction issue on full orchestra is massed violins. However good your system is, they just sound mushy or glassy with an applied gloss or sheen that is not present in the concert hall. This certainly degrades the listening experience for me.
This effect seems to be associated with the high frequencies of violins since it does not affect massed cellos or basses. I think it may arise from the reality that all the violins cannot be precisely tuned and so there are intermodulation artifacts that amount to distortion and are reproduced as that. Whilst such conditions apply to cellos and basses also, it appears they are not reproduced as distortion. Indeed, on my system basses especially sound very similar to in the concert hall.
I have also had season tickets to the symphony for about ten years. In retrospect that experience quickly started influencing decisions I made in system upgrades. I had happened to have accidentally bought a house with a large listening area with unbelievably good acoustics. This has been the most critical component. With the system I had put together... which I had dubbed as my reference system I could essentially recreate the essence of the concert experience at home. One by one I would work on one parameter at a time... I would also zero in the minimum sound... the maximum sound volume. My seats are 7th row center. I would listen to the symphonies reflections from different walls of the very good acoustics of the symphony hall... as well as soloist directly in front of me... with the hole in the violin or piano reflecting top pointing directly at me. It took about forty years for me to get to this point. .
To do this I used a Audio Research Reference preamp, a Pass x350 amp, Sonus Faber Olympica 3 speakers, 2 B&W 800 sub woofers and a Sim Audio 650 DAC with external power supply upgrade, and ARC Ref phono stage and VPI turntable, Transparent interconnects. The soundstage was fully defined, an oboe or Stradivarius violin sounded exactly right. The full blended massed violins perfect.I listen to the symphony orchestra with my eyes closed. I would have found it difficult to tell the difference. It was a great accomplishment, however in many ways the result of my dead silent and fantastic listening area.
.
Since then, I have significantly upgraded my system and lost the fidelity. My reference system had much high frequency energy which defined the venue... it really high lighted instruments. My new system is much more musical for other types of music... it does not call attention to the detail as much as my other system did. My point is, you don’t need to spend hundreds of thousand to do it. It requires an extraordinary listening space and a very synergistic components and a lot of work.
I have had season tickets to the symphony for over 10 years. I often close my eyes and listen critically for sound stage, the impact of the kettle drum, the tonality of the strings and woodwinds. I do it to determine what my home system should sound like. With some fiddling over the years, I can get a very close experience at home when playing the same compositions.
More alcohol, better illegal (or not) 'stimulants'....
Just kidding (maybe, but...)... ;)
Look, your audio gear can only take you so far. How much you've invested, how anal you've been in selection of same, how carefully you've prep'd your listening environment...
You'll be either delighted or dismayed....same old, same old. And it seems to play out with one's mood as well. But, I'm just a weird heretic....subject to illusion delusions...;)
I just listened to La Mer from Debussy directed by Solti w/CSO on original London FFRR. While not like being in the concert hall, played with my newly acquired PBN Montana XPS speakers, the instruments were placed all over the front wall with fantastic separation. That's plenty good enough for me. This record grows on me at each listen, superb experience.
Of course, there aren’t 60 musicians in your room. Your equipment and mind will provide you with the necessary illusion. Still awesome to hear the reproduction.
There’s no way you can come close to that experience with your equipment.
Diapers! Er, what I mean is, depends. One time way up high in a back balcony at Benaroya Hall I was struck by how much this sounded like my system at home. Violin sounded virtually the same. Put it this way, more difference between different recordings than what I was hearing here live vs at home. This was 20 years ago.
Another time, sitting a lot closer more like center floor 10-15 rows back, that I could not do. Not then. Now? Different story. So nowhere near easy, but you can come awfully close. Come and listen. You will see.
You need a large listening room and a large big baffled speaker to reproduce an orchestra in the home and if you can find a suitable ampliier to drive that combination you can get very close to live sound in a room but i am talking 12 to 16 cubic foot large speakers.
Not all the time, I have heard exceptions. I had an experience when I went to a Beethoven IX. The performance was very disappointing, so I spent the entire time in critical mode listening, to auditory details that we do when listening to gear critically.
After the performance I went home by the straightest route and put on immediately Ferencsik's performance of Beethoven IX on my setup. Ferencsik bettered the live experience by quite a bit. I was surprised to get similar dynamics, detail level, freq extension, imaging - you name it. Plus, a MUCH BETTER conducting and interpretation. I think that's the point of recorded music, to take you where the present might not.But do not expect that to happen all the time, that was a rare event. Happy time travels;
I guess I just did. Of course it won’t sound like the real thing. Who would expect that it would? It’s a recording. I do, however, find it surprising that some are so willing to give up and not strive for as much realism as possible. A good orchestral recording can do a pretty darn good job of conveying the musical content; if not all of the sonic fireworks as heard live.
**** Have you ever heard a 12-year-old, who cannot reach the pedals without a booster play Gershwin’s Rapsody in Blue so well that you want to throw every version in your collection away? These kids are astounding. ****
No. I agree, some of these kids today truly are astounding....for their age. But, play so well that they make me want to throw away every version in my collection away? Throw away my Previn/London? Or, my Thibaudet/Baltimore? Or, Bernstein/NY? Or......? Not a chance in hell. Of course, if the sound of the recording were more important to me than the playing, then yes. Thankfully, superlative playing can easily survive the inevitable sonic compromises of the recording.
You have to understand the issues and differences between the two events ("Live" VS "Memorex") and adjust your attitude and make allowances beforehand. In short, you must Pre-Tend. Your skill at pre-tending is what makes you a "Gifted Listener".
There’s a local church here that has excellent acoustics. Every quarter they have our professional symphony orchestra in for a performance. Each performance features some of the best young local musicians from ages 12-17 performing the solo instruments in the concertos. We always sit in the front row, right between the string section and the piano. I like to close my eyes and pretend that I’m listening to my home stereo system. As good as the system is at this point, it is VERY good, it doesn’t come close to the live performance. That is with full orchestras. However, small jazz groups, vocals, and small classical string performances are a different story. In that genre, the home system is getting very close indeed.
Have you ever heard a 12-year-old, who cannot reach the pedals without a booster play Gershwin's Rapsody in Blue so well that you want to throw every version in your collection away? These kids are astounding.
@rvpiano -- Agreed. All listening is "listening in" or "seeing as." The quest for too much realism is, for me, a sign I'm seeking a simulation (a Disney ride) rather than a meaningful engagement.
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