High end high quality int. amp for low level listening

The Luxman 507/509 will fit the bill AND they have outstanding loudness and tone controls, making low level listening much more enlightening than they would be otherwise.

Why give up the tube preamp section on the Pathos? If you are very happy with the sound that you have now I doubt going solid state will be better. Save your money instead of making a side step or backwards move! BTW, that Pathos is rated at 130 watts at 4 ohms so it is plenty powerful with the speakers that you are using!

Why give up the tube preamp section on the Pathos? If you are very happy with the sound that you have now I doubt going solid state will be better. Save your money instead of making a side step or backwards move! BTW, that Pathos is rated at 130 watts at 4 ohms so it is plenty powerful with the speakers that you are using!

@yogiboy Yes, you are right. I'm very happy with the pathos and I have plenty of headroom as I'm not listening to high SPLs. However, I was under impression that I may get better sound quality (resolution, soundstage size, imagining focus etc) If I upgrade to a more powerful amplifier event at low listening levels. 

You stated that 90% of the time you listen at a low 60 dbs spl. You will be payin’ for watts that you will never use. But if you want to make a change that’s up to you. Personally I think you would be just spinnin’ your wheels. That’s my honest opinion. But hey what the hell do I know?

The power amp is SS and doubles down on the watts. I think that side is good. Out of curiosity have you rolled the pre amp valves or changed the PC. I was surprised at low listening what a PC can change. Is it a lot? Enough to notice the difference.

Valves that is a given.. They can change the quality of any listening experience. Some break up at higher volume before others BUT play VERY clean at low volumes.. It's worth a try before an amp swap and a by guess and by God, venture. You're happy now, with just a little room treatment, a slight valve refinement.. ???? What ya think?

Good news, you saved a bundle..

Regards

I don’t think more power is going to do much for you at 60db listening levels. Now tone controls or dsp will do wonders at low levels. Even low sensitivity considered I have to believe your pathos is just loafing along at 60db. 

Wow just did my spl meter in my phone. 60 db is really pretty low volume. On the cheap you could try a Schiit Loki. 

More power doesn’t necessarily equate to improved sound. The sound will likely change a bit, but there’s no guarantee you’ll like it better. I’ve run the gamut of 55 wpc, to 70, 255, 150, 100, 35, and have settled on 20 wpc as my best sounding amps. It’s subjective, but I’ll gladly give up wall shaking volume levels for a sound I love....and they still play loud enough to annoy my family!

I had Sonus Fabers once and they didn't "wake up" until about 75 or 80 db I'm guessing. I suggest that you at least listen to your Pathos with more sensitive speakers. If you don't want to, then consider the new Audio Research I50, which is in your budget -- ARC is known to be synergistic with SF. Or, of those you list, my guess is that Hegel is the best bet; I would otherwise go for the Accuphase or Pass, but I suspect that they are too naturally warm to work well with the smoothed-over SF sound.

More sensitive speakers make a lot more sense than a more powerful amp.

Consider buying another Pathos Classic MKIII. There is a switch on the bottom of the unit to convert them to mono blocks. You can control both amps with one remote.

If he’s listening at 60db what’s the point in going monoblocks. 
I agree either EQ or much more sensitive speakers may be more to your liking at those low volumes. 

AVA SET-120; $1,199 new from AVA high fi 

Good for you, if you have the money. For low listening levels, go with a more sensitive speaker, and the Schiit Loki, or Lokius.

I would also recommend the Luxman 505/507 will do the trick.

I don’t think I would consider changing unless I was going to buy in the $8 - 10K range. At best you will get similar sound, at worst not nearly as good. I

Accuphase! The e-280 should be plenty, or maybe a e-380. The last generation 270/370 is not a lot different. Easiest to find with Japan voltage.

More efficient and higher impedance speakers make a lot more sense than a more powerful amp.

More efficient and higher impedance speakers make a lot more sense than a more powerful amp. 

^How^?
At 60 dB they are not stressing the amplifier, and unless that 60dB goes to 80dB SPL, then there is no great reason to add more watts, nor to add more sensitivity.
And if it sound good, then why change anything?

That said the Pass, and some of the others, would be nice to have… but they do not seem to be “required”.

You listen at low levels. I’d change your speakers like many have stated. Why change your amp? Higher sensitivity is the way to go. 

Hi

i go with Hegel. Amazing. Anyway I have H190 and H390. Let me know 

At 60 db liwstening level , you are only using less than 20 watts ...if that. a $300 Schitt Lokius will do the job nicely. ......or the $150 Loki Mini+ will also work just fine.You'll EQ the lower listening levels to exactly the sound you like without spending $5000.

Wow!  Great Feedback from All!  Very Educational, especially with "each of our ears, hear and appreciate different tonalities and soundstage's differently.."   Thank you to Each!

Get a pair of subs to fill in the sound stage. Makes a big difference at low or higher volume levels. 

What you need is an integrated with loudness control, for low level listening and still get the punch. Accuphase, Luxman and/or Yamaha would do. 

These speakers appear to be bi-wireable. Bi-amp them, if possible. The majority of the listening here is around the same dB. If you happen to have another amp available, hook it up. The results may be surprising. 

At 60 db liwstening level , you are only using less than 20 watts ...if that.

He said:

It's known that the speakers are power hungry as they rated at 86db sensitivity and 4 ohm impedance 

So 1 W would make 86 dB. maybe they are 3 meters away so they drop to 76 dB and add in the second speaker and they are at 79dB.
That is still 10 dB higher than “somewhere in the 60 dB range”, so he is arguably using closer to 1/10W.So I am failing to see how sensitivity or [power is what the OP needs?


However this is a good point:

What you need is an integrated with loudness control, for low level listening and still get the punch. 

4 Ohm and 86db. 
 Get an amp that is reliable and stable into a 4Ohm load, which has a solid power supply and will give you a good 300-400WPC into A 4 Ohm load. 
My opinion and experience. 

I also listen at low levels. 55-65db. I use the Pass X25 INT with older
Tannoys rated 94 @ 4ohms. I have not heard your Pathos INT but it sounds very interesting. 
If I were you I might keep the Amp and shop for speakers that are higher
in Sensitivity at a higher ohm rating. Like some older Rogers LS 3/5As. 

Please post what you end up with and how you liked it.

This is Why Audigon is great place full of helpful audience. Thank you guys for all your feedback. It’s clear that replacing the amp will be just a side step and not a step forward. Different sound signature but not necessarily better. I guess i will invest in a better cabling and will upgrade my DAC considering that currently i own Pro-Ject DAC Box S2+. Denafrips Ares II or event Pontus comes first on my mind :)

Something like that makes more sense. Those recommendations for a more sensitive speaker or a higher powered amp still have me scratchin’ my head!

I think you need to back up and ask more fundamental questions.  First, is there any evidence of the amp reaching clipping (or coming near)?  if no, and if you are listening at -60 dB i doubt it, there ought to be little if no benefit.  heck, get a multi meter, get an average rms value and assume a peak:average ratio of 10.
Second point, think about the system balance My opinion is that the Sonos Fabers can be bright and a bit harsh. Tubes, or tubey solid sate will help that.  You may be giving up a lot to speculate on a possible, but unlikely, benefit.
You mention a bigger power supply.  Back to that 10:1 i mentioned above - most amps clip due to voltage limits, not current limits since the capacitors in the power supply can deliver power for momentary creschendos. Caveat: if you play mostly compressed "head banger" rock this is not really true.
Move slowly and do your homework.  You'll et too many suggestions on how to spend your money rather than whether you ought to in the first place, IMNSHO.

G(the guy trying to finish his integrated amp design LOL)

I suspect, IF you had more power you would listen at higher levels, a little louder, some times, if not frequently. Probably now wanting to push your existing amp to the limit now.

I also agree with Eric, at low levels, a bass boost would make a more involving musical experience. ’Loudness’ circuits when used as intended, automatically and progressively boost bass as volume lowers, to compensate for our hearing system’s properties, reducing and eliminating the boost as you raise the volume. Few modern preamps include 'Loudness'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Of course, you could keep the amp and change to more efficient speakers instead.

Existing amp: do you have another space where you could set it up with more efficient speakers rather than sell it?

Something like that makes more sense. Those recommendations for a more sensitive speaker or a higher powered amp still have me scratchin’ my head!

Yeah…
And I’d be interested in what DACs you’re choosIng from.

celestial__sound,

If you do get the Hegel H390, you get a pretty darn good DAC build in.

All the best.

JD

Hi Celestial Sound.

Those are all wonderful amplifier choices you are proposing, and your current amplifier is really a beauty too. If I understand correctly, you are happy with the sound yet feel there is more the speakers can do? 
Like yourself, I have stand-mount mini-monitors - the Evolution Acoustics Micro One. With respect to specifications; impedance is rated as 6ohm (+/- 2ohm impedance variation) and 86db sensitivity. Frequency response is stated to be 30hz - 30khz, although at 30hz I don’t think there is an aweful lot of energy. They do sound full-bodied though, and are superb. Its hard to believe these little stand-mounts can produce sound the way they do. A testament to top level engineering.
With my Micro One, the volume knob must be ‘goosed’ more to get the db and energy I want from them, although I don’t usually listen at loud levels either.  So you are right in contemplating the possibility of a better match. You will probably find, as I have, that a more powerful amplifier will generate better sound. 
Given your generous budget, I would consider Parasound as a contender too. Of the amps you have listed, the Levinson 5805 might be my choice. It’s a daunting proposition without an audition, so that’s really key. Are there dealers for those specific brands within driving distance for you? As they are stand mounts, you could always (very carefully) schlepp your SFs to the dealer. I am sure they would have stands you could use?
Best of luck in your search.

Hello,
Add 1-2 REL subs. What you are missing is that bottom end. I can listen even below that level because of subwoofers. So take $1500 and get a T9X or double for two. If you decide to change your system for an integrated amp the Hegel line is really good. They do sound great at low volume. I just had a H190 at my place for a demo and I was amazed what $4000 could buy. See if you can demo some subs and a Hegel to see what works best for you. Low listening is about the preamplifier. There are ways to cheat the system. My current system without subs can be at 2.5% of the total volume. It is how it is made. I will say if you are using Revel or JBL HDI speakers then Mark Levenson is a good choice. Upgrade the power cable to the Mark Levenson so you can remove some of the hash and give it a better gauge to let it breath. Have you ever tried to breath through a straw while doing jumping jacks. That is what your amp and preamp are doing with a 16 gauge power cord. If you happen to live near or within driving distance to the Chicagoland area this store will let you try almost anything in their store for free in your home. No buyers remorse. Plus, you get to hear a product that is full broken in. https://holmaudio.com/
I hope this helps you out. 

@hshifi Thank you for your feedback. I actually have 1 SVS sb1000 sub with crossover set at 50hz. I agree it really makes a difference, especially at my listening habbits. 

More powerful amp = better at HIGH listening levelYou want amp with better LOW RESOLUTION DETAIL.The higher the power, the WORSE the low resolution detail gets.These are dictated by the laws of physics.Due to attention to execution you will see some variance though. Some high power amps can still do pretty decent low level detail, but same quality of execution will give way better low level detail with lower power.

@realworldaudio tbh i wasn't aware that higher power amps have lower resolution on low level listening. Can you name any specific integrates that have great resolution on low level listenings? 

These are dictated by the laws of physics.

(Does the quanta of an electron get bigger in bigger amplifier?)

@realworldaudio tbh i wasn't aware that higher power amps have lower resolution on low level listening. Can you name any specific integrates that have great resolution on low level listenings?

I would suggest some questioning of the factualness, and proof of various claims, would not be a wasted question for you to ask.

I do not want to come across as too harsh, but it is a low probability that all these solutions can exist simultaneously as optimum solutions.
(You have been told so far):

1. To use more sensitive speakers
   
2. More powerful amplifier
   
3. Use a less powerful amplifier
   
4. Use Subs
   
5. Use tone controls and loudness controls.

If it loud enough now, then we can exclude #1, #3 immediately. #2 we could exclude with a volt meter or an oscilloscope… Or I previously excluded it using just a pencil. 

At least three people mentioned tone and loudness controls for low level listening. Does your current amp/preamp have that?
There is a lot of info on the net about tone controls and Fletcher Munson curves.

That puts the #4 (sub) as potentially having some merit if it was I used as a way to have tone control.

If you are happy with it (which you said you were in the opening), then doing nothing is a pretty safe bet, and it is in between having an amp with more power and less power.

That leave #5 (tone controls), via a preamp, as being the only thing to look at that has any rational basis in fact.

The other reason to change things would be purely emotional. That is not bad, it is just not reasoned.

@holmz Thank you for your wise words. You remind me of person called 'jan.vigne'. He was a very knowledgeable hones and rational person active on stereophile and ecoustics forums (but sadly not here). 

Low level listening and having good sound at low volumes is way more complex than the power rating of the amp and I would disagree with the amount of power on hand being a useful metric.
Some speakers are "on song" at lower volumes better than others (Harbeth come to mind). Monitors with smallish drivers can take volume for the midbass to catch up to the rest of the frequency hence amps with a "bottom up" sonic signature like Pass are good choices there.

Some amps are poor at low level listening by design (most class D IMO) due to poorly designed input and driver stages typically.

Some cables, usually those with the lowest noise floor, have it all present at low volumes, Allnic comes to mind.

Many integrated amps, even some very expensive ones, can have sub-optimal preamp stages as well which is not ideal for low level listening.

A good consideration would be the Audia Flight FLS 10 listed here on Agon currently. If its anything like its sibling amp than it's a winner. Not likely they cut corners with the preamp stages in that integrated and the amp section is from the FLS 4 which is a stunner.

@holmz Thank you for your wise words. You remind me of person called 'jan.vigne'. He was a very knowledgeable hones and rational person active on stereophile and ecoustics forums (but sadly not here).

Well please send Jan my apologies for besmirching his/her fine name.

• What country are you in?
  
• What are you top 3-6 song you like?
  
• What are you top 3-6 books you like?
  

+1 holmz. The pathos integrated is a great, very smooth sounding amplifier and likely has the required power for the OP's circumstance. I think of the options offered the use of a simple tone control (such as the Loki or the Lokius) is the best option.

I once owned the Pathos Classic One MKII. Still have a Loki though not currently using it.  

another +vote for Accuphase.

Happy Listening!

The pathos integrated is a great, very smooth sounding amplifier and likely has the required power for the OP's circumstance.

I am still trying to work out the OP and their circumstance…



I listened to some music today at 65, 75 and 85 dB. It all sounded good, but the lower 65 dB could use some tone control.

@celestial__sound 
''because 90% of the time I listen at ~60dBs SPL.''

At 60dB SPL your speakers are not getting 1 watt or 2 watts or 10 watts, in fact they are not even getting 1/2 watt. At 60dB SPL your speakers are getting milliwatts from the amp. In my experience driving low efficiency speakers with milliwatts they will sound anemic at low volume; high efficiency speakers can play well with milliwatts and not sound anemic at low volume. Also amplifiers, tube amplifiers for sure, produce more distortion in lower impedances then higher impedances. That's why I said higher efficiency and higher impedance speakers make more sense then a more powerful amp.
Hope that helps...

+1  @ditusa 

The Pathos is a great integrated amp... but it is a poor pairing with high impedance low efficiency speakers, as the OP stated in the original post.  You have a choice — keep it and get 8 ohm or greater speakers with a sensitivity of ideally 92 dB/1 m or greater (having subs in the mix will lessen the load on the amp and allow lesser sensitivity) —- or get a high wattage solid state integrated amp to go with the Sonus Fabers.  Hegel would be a good choice