High end high quality int. amp for low level listening

It would be interesting of the OP has access for demo’ing some amps.

Sadly I don't have a chance. Here we have one official McIntosh distributor and none of the other brands can be found on stock.  However, yesterday I was going to audition McIntosh MA 7200 integrated but as i told you they didn't had on stock BUT, they had Sonus Faber Olympica II with a 25% discount because it was the last pair (before they jumped to NOVA). That really bugs me as of this moment and brought me sleepless night :D 

Just to be clear, only in an 8 Ohm load does 2.83 volts = 1 watt. In a 4 Ohm load 2.83 volts = 2 watts. The OPs speakers are 86 dB SPL (2.83 V/1m) @ 4 ohm.

Yeah that is correct, but we still get the +3 dB from the other side playing at the same time…  so we are back at 86 dB.

The main point is that 66 dB is -20 dB from 86dB.

So it is like 10mW RMS… maybe a bit more if the R^2 is higher, but definitely under 0.1W… in any case, I cannot see how “more power” could be the right answer.

It would be interesting of the OP has access for demo’ing some amps.

my 2 cents

of your candidates, i would favor the hegel h390 - it is brilliant, and if your source is really good, i believe you will hear a difference going from the pathos - the h390 is has power/control to spare, yet also the sweetness, correctness of tone, nuance and utter blackness of background to please at lower volumes as well

the other choice would be the pass, but the int25 is power limited, and you have stated you want more power into the sf 4 ohm load

@holmz,

 ''So 1 W would make 86 dB.''

Just to be clear, only in an 8 Ohm load does 2.83 volts = 1 watt. In a 4 Ohm load 2.83 volts = 2 watts. The OPs speakers are 86 dB SPL (2.83 V/1m) @ 4 ohm.

Would a Lyngdorf TDAI 1120 work?

Absolutely yes. Improving components improves the sound at all levels. Your choice of coarse must be a component which has the right character for your listening tastes. Also, while this is crude it has always worked for me, at least a 2x increase in cost… you can adapt the idea to the used market. But anything less is likely to be a lateral move where you will just trade good and bad characteristics. You need to jump a level or two of performance.

Also, I do not agree with everyone who claim that speakers with higher sensitivity will sound better at low listening because, at 60dBs sensitivity shouldn't make any difference at all.

Agreed!

I see that this thread has become a hot topic, and I'm happy for that. However I can also see that many people misinterpret  my question or maybe I wasn't clear enough. I never said that i was missing bass or highs at 60dBs SPL. My question was: Will i hear any difference at 60dBs if i get better quality amp with better power supply etc . That means, will I get improved resolution, better clarity, improved soundstage, better imaging, blacker background  etc. 

Also, I do not agree with everyone who claim that speakers with higher sensitivity will sound better at low listening because, at 60dBs sensitivity shouldn't make any difference at all. I think the opposite applies, if I want to listen at let say at 90+ dBs SPL then i will surely benefit from higher sensitivity speakers.   

I was kind of interested in seeing if anyone has a firm grasp on what makes for a system that sounds great at low volume. It has puzzled me for a long time. From the answers, it doesn’t sound like anyone else does. I have a fuzzy idea.

I suspect that this @dil fellow might:

Or install an equalizer.

If one had measurements of SPL versus frequency then that could be a start.

I always encourage more power!  I'd also explore a Moon by Simaudio integrated amp and I'd try the McIntosh MA6900 or 8700 over the 5300...

Or install an equalizer.

I share your pain. Picked up a used Mac 31V with loudness control to replace a McCormack TLC and suddenly listening at low levels was very pleasant. More power or speakers with higher sensitivity won’t help. Find a dealer who has an integrated with loudness so you can hear the difference.

I was kind of interested in seeing if anyone has a firm grasp on what makes for a system that sounds great at low volume. It has puzzled me for a long time. From the answers, it doesn’t sound like anyone else does. I have a fuzzy idea.


After fifty years of trading up in an attempt to put together the best system I suspect it is primarily the speakers… but you can loose it by not having good electronics behind it. Planar speakers don’t seem to be good at it. I am thinking efficient speakers are more likely to exhibit good performance at low volume. Tone controls don’t help… I don’t think it is a fundamental characteristic of the amp… certainly not the preamp. So, everything, to me, points primarily to the speakers.

My current system is very good at it. Quite by coincidence (with morning coffee) I am currently listening at about 60db. The noise floor is very low, sounds discrete and extremely fleshed out. My speakers are not tremendously efficient (see my user ID), but they are adequately powered.

@holmz,
The woofers in my speakers are the JBL 2234h. See: page 2 section C: internal design and construction last paragraph.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/notes/tech1-3a.htm

60dB listening volume is very low (medium TV level at 10ft.). Even taking into account your 86db sensitivity and 4 ohm impedance of the Sonus Faber Sonetto speakers. The Pathos will have more than enough power for your low listening levels. 

That TABLE 1 in section B right on page 1 says that the the high efficiency are the lest linear.

Are harmonics at play that make them sound better when playing low?

’’Maybe you’re right. But there would have to be a reason why the sounded better.’’

Because efficiency and sensitivity are not the same. See: tech note
below page 1 section C:

/www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/notes/tech1-3a.htm

@dcevans,
Agreed!

Maybe you’re right. But there would have to be a reason why the sounded better.

It could also be the Fletcher Munson is getting somewhat adjusted with speaker that has more low and high end than the other set?
It would be interesting to see REW curves for those two sets @dcevans That assumes that both amps don’t have a loudness correction feature.

The speakers are linear, so it is not like the more sensitive set comes off the blocks faster, other wise they would be non linear at low volume levels… and also they would then be non-linear with small changes in signal level. One would have to make them sticky or something like that, as the motor force is a linear product of current and magnet flux strength. The main non-linear part with a speaker, I think, is compression.

IMHO, keep the Pathos and get high efficiency speakers or one with a benign impedance curve (e.g., Fritz Carrera Be, ProAc Response D2, used Joseph Audio Pulsar). I think high efficiency speakers sound better at low volumes than low to medium efficiency speakers, but just my opinion — based on tube Coincident Dynamo 8 wpc amp driving Klipsch Heresy IIIs (99 dB/1 m) versus 125 wpc solid state Belles Aria Signature integrated driving Vandersteen VRL CT (86 dB/1 m). 

@holmzI think ditusa above answered this better than I can. I’m not an electrical engineer, but it has to do I think with the quality of the first watt. Yes 60 decibels is the same volume in two different setups, but the amount of distortion and  resolution heard at that level can be vastly different.  I think you want dynamic headroom listening even at 60 dB. 

my 2 cence, hegel 390

having subs in the mix will lessen the load on the amp and allow lesser sensitivity

How big of a concern is the load on the amp, when the SPL is in the 60s of decibels?

There aren’t too many integrated amps that double their power wattage into 4 ohms. The Levinson 5805 does (125 watts into 8 ohms, 250 into 4 ohms).  If you decide to keep your speakers, I would lean towards it or one of the Hegel integrateds myself. 

+1  @ditusa 

The Pathos is a great integrated amp... but it is a poor pairing with high impedance low efficiency speakers, as the OP stated in the original post.  You have a choice — keep it and get 8 ohm or greater speakers with a sensitivity of ideally 92 dB/1 m or greater (having subs in the mix will lessen the load on the amp and allow lesser sensitivity) —- or get a high wattage solid state integrated amp to go with the Sonus Fabers.  Hegel would be a good choice  

@celestial__sound 
''because 90% of the time I listen at ~60dBs SPL.''

At 60dB SPL your speakers are not getting 1 watt or 2 watts or 10 watts, in fact they are not even getting 1/2 watt. At 60dB SPL your speakers are getting milliwatts from the amp. In my experience driving low efficiency speakers with milliwatts they will sound anemic at low volume; high efficiency speakers can play well with milliwatts and not sound anemic at low volume. Also amplifiers, tube amplifiers for sure, produce more distortion in lower impedances then higher impedances. That's why I said higher efficiency and higher impedance speakers make more sense then a more powerful amp.
Hope that helps...

The pathos integrated is a great, very smooth sounding amplifier and likely has the required power for the OP's circumstance.

I am still trying to work out the OP and their circumstance…



I listened to some music today at 65, 75 and 85 dB. It all sounded good, but the lower 65 dB could use some tone control.

another +vote for Accuphase.

Happy Listening!

+1 holmz. The pathos integrated is a great, very smooth sounding amplifier and likely has the required power for the OP's circumstance. I think of the options offered the use of a simple tone control (such as the Loki or the Lokius) is the best option.

I once owned the Pathos Classic One MKII. Still have a Loki though not currently using it.  

@holmz Thank you for your wise words. You remind me of person called 'jan.vigne'. He was a very knowledgeable hones and rational person active on stereophile and ecoustics forums (but sadly not here).

Well please send Jan my apologies for besmirching his/her fine name.

• What country are you in?
  
• What are you top 3-6 song you like?
  
• What are you top 3-6 books you like?
  

Low level listening and having good sound at low volumes is way more complex than the power rating of the amp and I would disagree with the amount of power on hand being a useful metric.
Some speakers are "on song" at lower volumes better than others (Harbeth come to mind). Monitors with smallish drivers can take volume for the midbass to catch up to the rest of the frequency hence amps with a "bottom up" sonic signature like Pass are good choices there.

Some amps are poor at low level listening by design (most class D IMO) due to poorly designed input and driver stages typically.

Some cables, usually those with the lowest noise floor, have it all present at low volumes, Allnic comes to mind.

Many integrated amps, even some very expensive ones, can have sub-optimal preamp stages as well which is not ideal for low level listening.

A good consideration would be the Audia Flight FLS 10 listed here on Agon currently. If its anything like its sibling amp than it's a winner. Not likely they cut corners with the preamp stages in that integrated and the amp section is from the FLS 4 which is a stunner.

@holmz Thank you for your wise words. You remind me of person called 'jan.vigne'. He was a very knowledgeable hones and rational person active on stereophile and ecoustics forums (but sadly not here). 

These are dictated by the laws of physics.

(Does the quanta of an electron get bigger in bigger amplifier?)

@realworldaudio tbh i wasn't aware that higher power amps have lower resolution on low level listening. Can you name any specific integrates that have great resolution on low level listenings?

I would suggest some questioning of the factualness, and proof of various claims, would not be a wasted question for you to ask.

I do not want to come across as too harsh, but it is a low probability that all these solutions can exist simultaneously as optimum solutions.
(You have been told so far):

1. To use more sensitive speakers
   
2. More powerful amplifier
   
3. Use a less powerful amplifier
   
4. Use Subs
   
5. Use tone controls and loudness controls.

If it loud enough now, then we can exclude #1, #3 immediately. #2 we could exclude with a volt meter or an oscilloscope… Or I previously excluded it using just a pencil. 

At least three people mentioned tone and loudness controls for low level listening. Does your current amp/preamp have that?
There is a lot of info on the net about tone controls and Fletcher Munson curves.

That puts the #4 (sub) as potentially having some merit if it was I used as a way to have tone control.

If you are happy with it (which you said you were in the opening), then doing nothing is a pretty safe bet, and it is in between having an amp with more power and less power.

That leave #5 (tone controls), via a preamp, as being the only thing to look at that has any rational basis in fact.

The other reason to change things would be purely emotional. That is not bad, it is just not reasoned.

@realworldaudio tbh i wasn't aware that higher power amps have lower resolution on low level listening. Can you name any specific integrates that have great resolution on low level listenings? 

More powerful amp = better at HIGH listening levelYou want amp with better LOW RESOLUTION DETAIL.The higher the power, the WORSE the low resolution detail gets.These are dictated by the laws of physics.Due to attention to execution you will see some variance though. Some high power amps can still do pretty decent low level detail, but same quality of execution will give way better low level detail with lower power.

@hshifi Thank you for your feedback. I actually have 1 SVS sb1000 sub with crossover set at 50hz. I agree it really makes a difference, especially at my listening habbits. 

Hello,
Add 1-2 REL subs. What you are missing is that bottom end. I can listen even below that level because of subwoofers. So take $1500 and get a T9X or double for two. If you decide to change your system for an integrated amp the Hegel line is really good. They do sound great at low volume. I just had a H190 at my place for a demo and I was amazed what $4000 could buy. See if you can demo some subs and a Hegel to see what works best for you. Low listening is about the preamplifier. There are ways to cheat the system. My current system without subs can be at 2.5% of the total volume. It is how it is made. I will say if you are using Revel or JBL HDI speakers then Mark Levenson is a good choice. Upgrade the power cable to the Mark Levenson so you can remove some of the hash and give it a better gauge to let it breath. Have you ever tried to breath through a straw while doing jumping jacks. That is what your amp and preamp are doing with a 16 gauge power cord. If you happen to live near or within driving distance to the Chicagoland area this store will let you try almost anything in their store for free in your home. No buyers remorse. Plus, you get to hear a product that is full broken in. https://holmaudio.com/
I hope this helps you out. 

Hi Celestial Sound.

Those are all wonderful amplifier choices you are proposing, and your current amplifier is really a beauty too. If I understand correctly, you are happy with the sound yet feel there is more the speakers can do? 
Like yourself, I have stand-mount mini-monitors - the Evolution Acoustics Micro One. With respect to specifications; impedance is rated as 6ohm (+/- 2ohm impedance variation) and 86db sensitivity. Frequency response is stated to be 30hz - 30khz, although at 30hz I don’t think there is an aweful lot of energy. They do sound full-bodied though, and are superb. Its hard to believe these little stand-mounts can produce sound the way they do. A testament to top level engineering.
With my Micro One, the volume knob must be ‘goosed’ more to get the db and energy I want from them, although I don’t usually listen at loud levels either.  So you are right in contemplating the possibility of a better match. You will probably find, as I have, that a more powerful amplifier will generate better sound. 
Given your generous budget, I would consider Parasound as a contender too. Of the amps you have listed, the Levinson 5805 might be my choice. It’s a daunting proposition without an audition, so that’s really key. Are there dealers for those specific brands within driving distance for you? As they are stand mounts, you could always (very carefully) schlepp your SFs to the dealer. I am sure they would have stands you could use?
Best of luck in your search.

celestial__sound,

If you do get the Hegel H390, you get a pretty darn good DAC build in.

All the best.

JD

Something like that makes more sense. Those recommendations for a more sensitive speaker or a higher powered amp still have me scratchin’ my head!

Yeah…
And I’d be interested in what DACs you’re choosIng from.

I suspect, IF you had more power you would listen at higher levels, a little louder, some times, if not frequently. Probably now wanting to push your existing amp to the limit now.

I also agree with Eric, at low levels, a bass boost would make a more involving musical experience. ’Loudness’ circuits when used as intended, automatically and progressively boost bass as volume lowers, to compensate for our hearing system’s properties, reducing and eliminating the boost as you raise the volume. Few modern preamps include 'Loudness'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Of course, you could keep the amp and change to more efficient speakers instead.

Existing amp: do you have another space where you could set it up with more efficient speakers rather than sell it?

I think you need to back up and ask more fundamental questions.  First, is there any evidence of the amp reaching clipping (or coming near)?  if no, and if you are listening at -60 dB i doubt it, there ought to be little if no benefit.  heck, get a multi meter, get an average rms value and assume a peak:average ratio of 10.
Second point, think about the system balance My opinion is that the Sonos Fabers can be bright and a bit harsh. Tubes, or tubey solid sate will help that.  You may be giving up a lot to speculate on a possible, but unlikely, benefit.
You mention a bigger power supply.  Back to that 10:1 i mentioned above - most amps clip due to voltage limits, not current limits since the capacitors in the power supply can deliver power for momentary creschendos. Caveat: if you play mostly compressed "head banger" rock this is not really true.
Move slowly and do your homework.  You'll et too many suggestions on how to spend your money rather than whether you ought to in the first place, IMNSHO.

G(the guy trying to finish his integrated amp design LOL)

Something like that makes more sense. Those recommendations for a more sensitive speaker or a higher powered amp still have me scratchin’ my head!

This is Why Audigon is great place full of helpful audience. Thank you guys for all your feedback. It’s clear that replacing the amp will be just a side step and not a step forward. Different sound signature but not necessarily better. I guess i will invest in a better cabling and will upgrade my DAC considering that currently i own Pro-Ject DAC Box S2+. Denafrips Ares II or event Pontus comes first on my mind :)

I also listen at low levels. 55-65db. I use the Pass X25 INT with older
Tannoys rated 94 @ 4ohms. I have not heard your Pathos INT but it sounds very interesting. 
If I were you I might keep the Amp and shop for speakers that are higher
in Sensitivity at a higher ohm rating. Like some older Rogers LS 3/5As. 

Please post what you end up with and how you liked it.

4 Ohm and 86db. 
 Get an amp that is reliable and stable into a 4Ohm load, which has a solid power supply and will give you a good 300-400WPC into A 4 Ohm load. 
My opinion and experience. 

At 60 db liwstening level , you are only using less than 20 watts ...if that.

He said:

It's known that the speakers are power hungry as they rated at 86db sensitivity and 4 ohm impedance 

So 1 W would make 86 dB. maybe they are 3 meters away so they drop to 76 dB and add in the second speaker and they are at 79dB.
That is still 10 dB higher than “somewhere in the 60 dB range”, so he is arguably using closer to 1/10W.So I am failing to see how sensitivity or [power is what the OP needs?


However this is a good point:

What you need is an integrated with loudness control, for low level listening and still get the punch. 

These speakers appear to be bi-wireable. Bi-amp them, if possible. The majority of the listening here is around the same dB. If you happen to have another amp available, hook it up. The results may be surprising. 

What you need is an integrated with loudness control, for low level listening and still get the punch. Accuphase, Luxman and/or Yamaha would do.