Help with high end bookshelf speakers

Years back, I was banished to a room in my basement for listening.  I was a little disappointed until I set up the room.  It was definitely a blessing to have a room that I could set up however I wanted.  My room is a bit larger than yours at 18x14.  I used the Wilson protocol for speaker placement and my ProAc R2 speakers absolutely disappear.   Good luck.  

Well, given budget limit of 5K, I would encourage you to research Fritz speakers. You have been given a couple references  for these speakers herein making mine the 3rd. I own the Carbon 7 SE MKII. They sell for $2800 and sold manufacturer direct with a trial period. Ones cost to try a pair is return shipping. They would play well in your small room, are easy to drive, and represent great value in speaker cost. Mine are paired with higher cost amplification. Fritz has a great website and is easy to talk to regarding your musical tastes and needs. 

Hegel with the Borresen X-1's ( $5500 pr.) Best Match.

@cleeds my comment wasn’t off topic though. It was quite the opposite: I criticized the fact that it went off-topic. I don’t know what is the harm in a comment to that effect. But it’s a first world problem, I won’t lose any sleep over it.

@yogiboy you are very kind. I am really just a forever beginner in this hobby, I was here to learn. I may catch up in a bit but a healthy break is due for me now....

I am not sure who removed it, I flagged one or two comments in 2 years, although I should not have, in retrospect. 

@grislybutter

You seem like a nice person. If it matters my posts were also removed. I’ve been on this site for 20 years and have never requested to have any post removed. I’m dang sure we all know who requested to have our posts removed. BTW, you are a great contributor and I hope you give it a second thought about leaving! 

grislybutter

So my comment was removed as it was off-topic. Which is not a rule, listed anywhere.

Staying on-topic shouldn’t need to be a rule, because it’s just a common courtesy. But it’s a rule just the same. In fact, it’s Rule #1, if you’d bothered to look:

Audiogon strives to maintain a forum that is informative, focused, and dynamic. In order to maintain a cohesive and vital database, we moderate the (forums) in a number of ways.

• Threads are kept on-topic and relevant to our members.

You can find the more detailed explanation here.

i no longer wish to participate in these “games”, my mental health needs a break.

My best to you, @grislybutter Nothing is more important than our health.

So my comment was removed as it was off-topic. Which is not a rule, listed anywhere. Again, this is becoming very tiring, frustrating, punitive, silly, etc. With the personal attacks on me lately, i no longer wish to participate in these “games”, my mental health needs a break. Have a fun summer, everyone…..

I have a smaller room with very bad acoustics and went through many speakers there . The Vanatoo active speakers I have had for a few years now were the first to sound really good in there. The onboard DSP and tone controls help get things tuned in which is invaluable in an acoustically challenged room. Sometimes less is more and the Vanatoos cost little and yet are quite versatile for their size.

@grislybutter Most likely it’s the same guy that removed his own post. Figure out who that is. Hint: starts with d ends in 3! BTW, I’m surprised he hasn’t had my post removed!

@cleeds I have already contacted the moderator and it was removed because it was flagged by member(s). So only members here would know.

I have read the list many times why a comment may be removed.

grislybutter

I truly wish to understand why my comment was removed. Who was offended by what?

If you truly want to understand, you can contact the moderators using the Contact Us link that is at the bottom of each page. I've found them to be very responsive. You might want to consider that there are multiple reasons for them to delete a post and being offensive is only one of them.

I truly wish to understand why my comment was removed. Who was offended by what?

@deep_333 

Nice comedy routine you have there!

Yes, 11 x 12 is not optimum, but it is certainly possible to get great hi-fi, high end audio quality in such a room. 

I have a room slightly larger than that, with well placed (mostly DIY) room treatment, and I have no problems getting the speakers to disappear, with a soundstage that extends well beyond the outer edges of my speakers, and quite deep.

Sure, it took some work to get the bass to sound right, but it is definitely high end sound quality. 

REFERENCE 3a REFLECTOR Monitors

https://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0817/Reference_3A_Reflector_Monitor_Review.htm

“ ….. Don’t bother skipping to the conclusion of this review, as I’ll tell you right now: The Reference 3A Reflector is a great speaker. If one has been searching for a stand-mounted speaker anywhere near its asking price of $12,000, these are the speakers to get.
Not only do they do everything that one would expect of for a speaker of its size and price, but much, much more. They commit no errors of omission I can think of, other than missing the deepest bass, nor do they commit any errors of commission that I’ve become aware of during its audition period…”

Got the H590 with M30.1 and M40.2 - definitely Harbeth!!!

Whatever speakers you pursue, I recommend for a room that size that they be sealed/acoustic suspension. Speakers with that design interact less with one's (small) room, can be placed closer to the back wall if needed, and can be paired with a sub (or subs) more easily because their output drops off sharply below the -3 dB point. I speak from experience using bookshelf speakers in a 13' x 13' home office.

OP, relegated to the third bedroom, grow a pair! Unless your wife is the major breadwinner, you have a say in this! Don’t be meek, don’t be pushed, or bullied around. Put it where you want it; at least a realistic space in your home. A three bedroom House? Come on.

he said it's not hifi. Confidence is key.

@deep_333

Hegel isn’t hi-fi? Have you ever heard a 390, 590 or 600? They are most certainly hifi. Are there higher end products? Of course. But saying hegel isn’t hifi really calls into question your credibility.

Is Krell or Mark Levinson hifi?

@deep_333 we should hang out sometime, I love the way you think...

I just reclassified myself as un-fi guy

@hsounds that's what I am doing

not finished yet, but getting there

For a very affordable option that will trounce most of the usual suspects (Focal, Revel, Harbeth, KEF etc), you could go the minor DIY route with this kit:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/satori-ara-textreme-2-way-speaker-kit-pair-with-cabinets/

All that’s required is installing the cabling, crossovers, damping and drivers.

The drivers in these are first-rate and higher quality than you’ll find in nearly any <$10K speakers you can buy through a dealer.

This assertion will get the undergarments of certain fanboys (Harbeth guys most likely 😂) all up in a bunch. But if they were to earnestly A/B this kit with the aforementioned brands, they’d come to the same conclusion, of that I have zero doubt. The drivers employed by those larger brands are not remotely close to the quality of those Satori units, regardless of those brands’ marketing hyperbole regarding their “custom”, in-house manufacturing and QC.

I wasted far too much time and energy messing with the typical magazine-hyped products early on in my journey. Once you discover the value of kits/DIY, and to a lesser extent, factory-direct brands, the comparatively mass market options begin to feel like highway robbery. The latter mostly survive because they place greater emphasis on cabinet aesthetics than they do actual sound quality.

I do have to say it is frustrating to help someone when detailed information is required. Maybe AGon could come up with a guide to asking a question. I.E. Room size, existing equipment, preferred type of music, problem you are already having. I understand people needing help. You should not say I need speakers…And send. Maybe we are at fault for answering. I love to help people. From now on out if information is not provided, especially when asked we should move on to the person who has their stuff together. 

PMC makes very good speakers that sound big but are physically small, be it standount or floor standing. Crazy good bass due to Transmission line loading, front port. Easy to drive and not fussy about placement. The Music Room carries them. 

I own X-3's...I second the X-1's @ $5500......You are buying from a company that  engineers $500,000 speakers........ 'Nuff said.

Have in a second system, 13x13 room, for rock and roll only, a pair of Fritz carbon 7SE mark 2's complimented by a SVS SB 3000 sub. Good electronics also. Perfect at a reasonable price. Plus Fritz is great to talk to and deal with. Will never sell mine, they sound that good. Pink Floyd, Zeppelin, AC/DC

@deep_333  , how long does it take you to compose these pearls of stupidity?  I hope you don't waste too much of your valuable time thinking this crap up.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but, a 11 by 12 closet is not hifi, it is about as lofi as it gets for a room. That Hegel isn’t hifi either. Hence, you’re just not a hifi guy anymore ..you are a midfi/lofi kinda guy ( and such is life).

Just don’t overthink it, get whatever li’l box, put it in the 11 by 12 closet, lower all expectations and make do with it.. If you restrict your playlist to female vocals @ 60db, everything should work fine (make you feel like you’re very hifi or something).

God bless.

So we STILL don't know anything about your current setup and the sound you're looking for.  It's always odd when people ask for help and then withhold information. It makes one wonder...

@mlsstl Yeah, the writing’s on the wall here.  When trying to get the most basic info to help someone is like pulling teeth I cut bait as I have here.  If others wanna spend their time throwing darts at a board blindfolded more power to them — I’ll spend my valuable time helping other people who don’t make it so hard and where it’s far less likely that I’m just wasting it.

@renosteve  -- you completely misread my question.  The "Why?" was not inquiring as to why you were asking about speakers, but rather why you failed in multiple responses to say what speakers you currently have. 

For example, if you have (and love) a horn setup in your current system and are trying to carry that forward into your new listening room, that eliminates at lot of options people have suggested. 

You mentioned KEF R3 Metas, but the way you wrote the sentence sounds like those are not your current speakers but rather an experiment you tried for the new room.

So we STILL don't know anything about your current setup and the sound you're looking for.  It's always odd when people ask for help and then withhold information. It makes one wonder...

It's for sure an LS3/5a size space. I'd actually shut the conversation down now and go find yourself an nice set of Charwell, Rogers, Spendor or whatever other brands use the classic spec. They will knock your socks off if you haven't experienced them before set up correctly in a smaller room. Just my opinion...

In that size room you should be lookin’ for a sealed or front ported type speaker. I have owned many stand mount speakers and I doubt that you would go wrong with my favorite the Harbeth P3 ESR with a good pair of 24"-28" stands. It is a LS3/5a (sealed) type design . This is one of the many positive reviews describing the P3!  

Sorry, withdraw Harbeth suggestion which needs more breathing room.

Maybe start another thread like “Looking for nearfield speakers for 11x12 room” 

Check out the Revival Audio Atalante 3 monitors. 

They're responsible for me stopping right where I'm at. I'll only move up to the bigger Atalante 5 if I ever get a bigger place. Designed and made in France, nothing outsourced. The owner was lead speaker designer for 7 years at Dynaudio and did the same at Focal/JM Labs and before that he worked for Altec Lansing. Speakers are proprietary-nothing off the shelf. Knows a thing or two about speaker design. 

All the best,
Nonoise

Misstl questions WHY I ask about speakers, its due to change of location and terrible room acoustics. When moving I kept the core system but sold speakers thinking I would purchase some that fit best in the new house. Purchased a set of KRF R3 meta to test how the room reacted, it's very discouraging. Resolved myself to g  dedicated listening space in nearfield just trying to decide if I want to sell out to surround sound or a basic background system for the living room. Unfortunately like everything else with this move, including my wife is a challenge. I'd like to build a TT system up again once I get the core set. Since I am a old wannabe audiophile I'm trying to avoid to doing to do the same thing over and over again. What's the definition of crazy?

@renosteve -- you've been asked repeatedly about your current system -- particularly the speakers -- and you've given several replies without ever answering the question.  Why?  Keeping things a secret makes it harder to give suggestions that will work for you (assuming, of course, that you happen to like your current system.)

You can go far with 5k budget.  Harbeth is a great match for Hegel.  

$1800 (TMR)

Fosi V3 w/ 32 volts SMPS - $72 (Amazon)

Wiim ultra - $330 Crutchfield

Micca 14 AWG speaker cable $26 (Amazon)

Mogami 2964 RCA cable - $27

Total = $2255 + contribution to Uncle Sam

This inconspicuous system will fit the bill for a small room like yours.

meager 5K 

meager? My whole current system cost half of that and it sounds awesome.

You have a  massive selection if you consider used.

Renosteve

42 posts in, and we finally have your budget.....of course you've gotten recommendations all over the place because no one knew your price constraints.

No need to replace any of your electronics, they are all very good. Some options to consider for a relatively small space such as your new room: Buchardt Audio S400 MKIIs $2,500, Fritz Carbon 7s $2,800, Borreson X1 $5,500, Philharmonic BMR $2,200, used Joseph Audio Pulsar Graphene $6,500, used Vivid Kaya S12s $4,800

I have a 390 so I know how capable it is. As such, it should be paired with an equally capable pair of speakers.  All can be found preowned at well below retail. 
 

805d4

perlisten r5m or s5m. 

borrsen x1

Dynaudio contour 20i or heritage specials 

Wow, this is kind of overwhelming, it all sounds great. 

@oldrooney seems to have similar room issues, think I'll try integrating a good sub in before I bail on the living room. I have a meager 5K budget so I need to appropriate the where the dollars go.

In the event I can get this room to play decently would digital room correction such as a mini-DSP have any value? Probably overthinking things again, just wondering.

Great input from all, thanks again.

I'm a composer, pianist, and audiophile, and if you would like to seek great quality with great value, I recommend the following professional near field monitoring systems:

1.  More expensive, but great relative value for what you get (my current audio recording editing monitor system):  Genelec 8341A monitors (larger models are 8351 and 8361);  these can be -- but don't have to be -- combined with one or two related subwoofers (model 7350A or there are larger model options) -- I have two of these subwoofers that I purchased used.  I output my piano recordings from my MacBook Pro via USB through a MUTEC MC-3+ USB master clock/reclocker;  I've also purchased a new USB connection controller by Genelec for this system (model 9320A), but haven't received it yet.  All of the cabling is by DH Labs (silversonic.com), which was very reasonable.  What prompted me to investigate this system (including the MUTEC unit) were (a) Audio Science Review's Master Audio Review Index (these Genelec monitors were at the top of the rankings), and (b) a review on Sweetwater.com of the Genelec 8341A monitors, by an audiophile and pianist -- his comments were not only correct, but I went further and added the subwoofers, which substantially improved the system:  "Not a pro, just an audiophile; incredible sound for the price.  I'm not a sound engineer, just a software engineer and piano performance major with a long time love of audiophile systems that can reproduce natural, you-are-there sound. I bought these for my office workstation system, to provide "good enough" background playback of hi-rez streams from Qobuz and Tidal. I was flabbergasted to find that the 8341's driven by a bare bones Roon Macbook USB -> Mutec 3 front end could almost match the main listening system I've spent 15 years optimizing component by component at 20X the price point. Not to mention 10X the physical space requirement. FYI, I've tried plenty of 'bargain' hi-fi options as well over the years, from JBL to Paradigm to PSB to Focal and B&W mid level, so this isn't simply a case of a a stupid audiophile being unaware of what less expensive equipment with good base specs can do.  There is some material, such as 60's through 80's classic rock that I actually prefer on these over the main system."

2.  Much less expensive, but great (my prior audio editing monitors, which I still use for recreational listening):  Dynaudio BM6A MKII active monitors (which should be readily available used, or you could get the current model);  Dynaudio made (and perhaps continues to make) a subwoofer designed to supplement these.  

P.S.  I would also add, importantly, that having two source/headphone systems of similar total cost to the Genelec system, and after listening to vastly more expensive large systems, I think the best value audiophile solution -- if you want to optimize sound quality and listening alone -- are near-field monitors -- the audiophile sweet spot in driver size, in my opinion, because: (a) they minimize the room acoustic issues (since you sit close to them -- the drivers on my Genelec system are two feet from my ears) that are often costly major problems for large systems, while (b) providing large enough drivers to provide the physical acoustic bass/low mid-range that headphones can struggle to replicate because their drivers are necessarily small.  

In the past I have enjoyed great sound from BW 805 d4 in a bookshelf set up. 

Full disclosure:  I also have a pair of Brand New - with warranty- of white BW 808d4 available here for $6500. This is below the price for an open box pair.

I'm curious why I didn't get the usual suspects when I asked about a high-end bookshelf speaker i.e. Sonus Faber, Dynaudio & Revel. Makes me wonder...

Because for some reason, and despite being asked repeatedly by several others, you’re providing no info on budget, what speakers you’re using now, what specific improvements/sound characteristics you’re looking for, or if your looking for new or used.  Stop wondering and just share this basic and critical info and you’ll get much better and more specific/targeted recommendations here.  Sheesh.  Help us help you.