Help. System sounds thin and bright or harsh

Update

New cd transport (Project RS2T) has killed most of the bugaboos for harsh sound. I am now on the right path without even doing room treatments. .Oppo bdp105 was just lean and bright in comparison.  Clean power, stereo subs (recommended by many here, thank you) and room treatments (also recommended here) are next and not necessarily in that order.   Clearly bits are NOT just bits...the transport into a decent dac is a game changer in my system/room.  Thanks all for all the help.

You could get a pair of SVS 3000 Micro subs for $1700. They have an app for setup and allow phase adjustment from 0-180, rather than REL’s 0 or 180. I’ve found that alone allows for better fine tuning. REL not having an app makes setup frustrating as your constantly getting up to turn dials on the back.

I would also trying using the Sumiko setup. It sounds unusual in that your speakers often times don't end up symmetrical but it's all about placing the speakers to your ears and room as no 2 are alike. See here. It's free and you may learn something about placement while doing it. This is how my dealer sets up all his speakers and the only way I do it now.

I own 30.2's with a Class A amp. My suggestion is a combination of the above. Place the speakers closer to the walls if possible. Use Ton-Trager or similar stands, or what I did was put springs under my speakers, made a huge positive difference, and get a sub. Even a small one, or two, will do it.

I think good quality wire is worth it, but it should not be used as a tone control. Do the above first before switching wire.

Seems to me more and more the 30.1's are just not big enough. Room treatments and less speaker toe in will likely help but not fix the sound. 

Earthbound     I am seriously considering subs but a pair of rel s510's would be pretty pricey.  The rel website configured that a pair of t7x's would work based on limited data punched into it's questionnaire,,,speaker brand...model...room square footage and such. I have read threads saying its very hard to integrate subs  but also others praising the use of subs.  I already believe two is the proper way to go to. 

I'm waiting for a new cd transport to arrive to see what that might offer. (probably not the magic bullet but the new one should be better than the Oppo bdp 105.)

vrao 81     I have a couple of after market power cords including one for the cd player acting as a transport (puritain along with the Puritain 156 conditioner) The others probably aren't high end. 

pointtrucking      I THINK its phase correct as some recordings sound very good.

Is your phase inverted ?

What power cables are you using. In my system stock power cords made it sound harsh and bright and thin, lot of metallic sounding highs. Replacing with Pangea Ac14se mk2 eliminated emi and made music.

I’m not sure if someone mentioned it, but subs always help. Harbeths are nice but may not handle the new room. 2 Rel s510’s would do the trick. That’s the route I’m heading as well. Sitting in front in listening chair, my system is awesome. In the kitchen area 15 feet away, missing just a bit. Enter the subs, which I’ve always had but not in the new system. It’s my next purchase. 

This video will give you ideas on how to verify your system set up and determine if there are changes to make improvements, such as reducing the harshness you are experiencing.

Using Key Measurements to Verify Basic System Setup

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized miniDSP dealer

thanks for the AC check advice.  I can easily go the VOM route,  Listened last night after a wine or two and the system actually sounded "choked" to me at higher volume

Cymivka, thanks for the extra info.

Not familiar with the sound of your DAC. I wouldn't consider the Oppo built in as warm. Sabre chips can be a little relentless. Good designers can overcome this  by not using all of Sabre's baked in digital filters and settings. My Ayre uses a Sabre chip and sounds nothing like the Oppo. Oppo seems to make a good transport. 

It is easy to check the AC power. A VOM can be purchased for around $20. They are even available at places like wally world. Just set dial to AC and insert a probe into each flat hole of the wall receptacle. Warning - don't touch the metal prongs. If you aren't comfortable doing this get someone else to help. 

Good luck,

aldnorab 

E.S I haven't delved into actually measuring power. Don't have the gear or real knowhow for that matter.

Had a windstorm last night but the system didn't seem to exhibit any real symptoms. Just the usual lean/bright sound with lesser quality recordings, (voices way too hot)

Aldnorab I am by passing the oppo/modwright dac for a musetec dac that sounds pretty good with the right recordings. Connected via a DHLabs rca coax.  Even using the analog, tubed outputs of the modwrighted oppo in the past, I always felt the sound was a little brittle or hard.  The musetec dac brings a whole different sound..more detail, and layers of instruments and voices with more separation.. Hard/brittle sound has not been eliminated.  (weakest link the oppo?)

Oppo 105 as transport

Musetec 005 dac ( xlr balanced outs)

Benchmark LA4 Pre (xlr balanced outs)

Pass Labs X250.5 amp

Harbeth 30.1's

Just wanna get to a decent base point before deciding on possibly changing speakers. I love what the harbeths do but they lack bass/involvement and I no longer need to be bass shy since I don't live in an apartment at this time.

I might have missed it, are you using the Oppo’s Modwright DAC or an external one? The factory stock DAC in my Oppo 105 is relatively smooth, but a little bass lite and lacks depth, compared to the Ayre Codex. The Ayre has their proprietary digital filter that is as ring free as possible. No pre ring and only 1 cycle of post ring. The analog out put stage has great dynamics and bass power. First song scared the he.. out of me. The Oppo never did that.

The variac didn’t solve all the problem until it was also hooked to the Oppo.

Thanks,

aldnorab

@raysmtb1 sounds like power issues to me

adnorab

thanks for your input.  I still come back to the oppo as my main problem aside from room maybe too big for the Harbeth 30.1's (no rear wall) I find i cannot tolerate music past 70 dcbls. voices "kill" in trying to get the music to excite the listening room. Very irritating.  I am running the oppo as a transport through a puritain 156 conditioner into a very good dac. Using an after market power cord (Puritain).

Sounds pretty good with the right recording at moderate levels.  Looking to try out another cd/transport before replacing the oppo.  

Also need to check voltage levels when sound gets worse.

Thanks

A fix no one has mentioned yet.

I've had the same problem over the last few years. Most of my listening time is at night from 11PM to 2AM. Supposed to be the best time to listen. System would start off great and get progressively brighter and thinner. Tried everything, amps, speakers, room placement, vinyl, digital, room acoustics. Nothing really helped. 

I started having a problem with the Oppo 105. Sometimes it would get stuck playing off the external hard drive. Had to be unplugged to unfreeze the gui. My VTL ST150 popped a resistor causing a tube to glow red. 

I joined the free Orchard Audio Starkrimson amp tour on the Hoffman website. The sound was so nice I had Leo build me an amp. New amp arrived and it wouldn't play! It automatically went into protection mode. The voltage was too high. As an experiment ran the amp with 300ft of 16ga extension cords. Wanted to drop the voltage. The amp played!

I now have the amp and Oppo plugged into a 20 amp variac set to 110 volts. Sounds nice throughout the night and, fingers crossed, the Oppo hasn't messed up since. Check your voltage. Mine steadily increases later at night. Funny thing, my big wire dedicated ac lines actually made the problem worse. Normal house circuits had more voltage drop and sounded better.

Loving the system and new amp.

Good luck,

aldnorab 

If you are using any rigid footers like cones, spikes, Rollerblocks, try removing them and replace with something pliant. If your issue is resonance related this should tell you. 

@cymivka - I have x250.8 and psm156. They work beautifully. If you're looking for preamp, I recommend LTA MicroZOTL preamp. I just got it and sounds wonderful with Pass and Falcon Ls3a/5, which tells me it would also work well with harbeth. 

I’m also using Puritan PSM156 and I like the sound of my Pass Labs amp being plugged directly into the wall outlet as well. Could be system compatibility when it comes to how all the component interact with each other (input/output impedance, gain, input sensitivity). 

yeah audphile 1 it is puzzling to me as well. I found the same degradation in sound quality again with the pass labs replaced after a couple of hours listening. I have called pass labs or Reno hifi where I purchased the amp from (back in 2014) and they tell me I would hear something different if the amp was to blame, like clicking and that both channels would not likely degrade at the same pace. 

I can't figure out what goes wrong...just some distortion and less meat on the bones. Felt new pre and dac fixed it but then it came back (bad sound) so I took the pass labs out of the mix and things sounded pretty good still using an Oppo bdp 105 as a transport via coax cable from DH Labs. I'm bypassing the tubed output stage using digital out.

There are only two components left the Oppo and the Harbeth 30.1 speakers. Also wondering if there some type of electrical bugaboo in the house that's only 5 years old.  I am using a Puritain 156 conditioner for all components except for the pass. I felt the Puritan really made a big difference and even tried it with the pass but pass labs recommends plugging straight into a wall socket with stock cord. 

Did you call Pass Labs? 
I owned the X250.5 for many years with 3 different speakers and the only way I was able to make it sound less than excellent was by using crappy components upstream. It’s transparent enough to show you what each component is doing. 
So this sounds odd to me but I’m there and I don’t hear what you hear in your system. 

A dealer suggested a failing power supply. Something is off with it for sure.

What’s broken in the amplifier that causes it to sound bright?

Update.

Seems like the bright sound gremlin was lurking in the Pass Labs amp.  After new dac and preamp I finally unhooked the Pass and stuck in my older Nuforce V3 monoblocs that were just collecting dust.  I'm very surprised how good they sound with the dac and pre It;ll be interesting to see what a difference a repaired Pass amp can make..  Oppo 105 is acting as a transport..  Not done by a long shot yet.  Chasing a warmer bigger sound.  Pro Ject Transport may be next as its gotten lots of praise in these forums. 

Focus on cables and their replacement. Stay away from bright sounding cables that have silver wire. Don't buy the ones that are advertised as highly revealing as this can put you over the top, especially if your components are considered to be high definition, you may end up with too much of a good thing.

Just tried Musetec 005 dac (already broken in) fed by Oppo bdp 105 via optical out (cd) with dac fed straight into the Pass Labs X250.5 (by passing Modwrighted tubed output) (jc2 headed back to Parasound for repair) Unfortunately my 105 does not have usb audio output.

Far from best set up. Waiting for Benchmark LA4 to be shipped.

BUT....First impressions: sound is cleaner, fuller if not a lil recessed compared to what I had before especially with the oppo feeding the amp directly. (unlistenable) there's a deeper soundstage...voices don't glare as much. And there's more pronounced instrument separation.  This is all very promising. Hoping new pre amp will bring more low end and smooth out the top end.  LA4, though, is said to let the source and amp shine...no fixing the sound.  CDP might need replacing...then gotta pin down streaming.

But can listen to this while waiting for the new pre

Update: 

Thanks to yyzsantabarbara I learned that the jc2 pre amp is out of whack and since I bought yy's Musetec dac I am not willing to wait for the jc2 to be repaired. (shipping, turnaround time) .  Just ordered a Benchmark LA4 preamp after hearing it played on yyzsantabarbara's impressive set up. (plus his glowing reviews and vast experimentation with all sorts of pricey gear) Really don't think I can go wrong for the price...30 day trial and all. Now have to put on my 21st century ears and get into streaming the right way.   Might have something more to ad once the LA$ arrives.

I am considering the xp-12 but first want to try taking the Oppo out of the mix with a high end dac. 

I feel the sound gets more hashy and bright as the system warms up after being powered down overnight. (not real smooth or great sounding at the start either, just worse as it warms up) Might have to do with tubes, I have 3 sets of output tubes with low hours, No real difference when I change them out when the brightness shows, So maybe rectifier or other tubes in the separate power supply??   Have to hunt those down but only after trying a dac change first. Really not into tube rolling,

And yes still gotta get around to taking pics and posting on my profile, 

Thanks all for your input.  Im taking my time before throwing more dollars at this but I know its inevitable as perhaps being more critical I have higher expectations than before.

OP,

Your comment about “Being able to crank it even more”, I think says something about what you value in sound. Have you auditioned a large number of speakers? I would recommend doing a tour of speakers at dealers. Try B&W… and what ever other high end brands are available. I think you may have a speaker sound / value mismatch. You want speakers that really appeal to your values.
 

Your physical move… your change in venues, changed the speaker requirements. I think this is complicating things. 
 

Did you post photos in your virtual system, under your ID? This can be really helpful for us to be helpful.

I would try an xp-12 pre. I have a x250.8 and the xp-12 with a pair of klh model 5s and theres zero brightness. Its detailed fleshy and real. 

My cardas cables are Clear Cygnus balanced/xlr from cd to pre and pre to amp.

which Cardas? my golden ref are warm side of neutral

Mceljo:    The 30'1's replaced Harbeth slh5's that were too boomy in the old listening room.  Thought the 30.1's were just right with the right recordings coupled with the modwrighted oppo bdp 105. But I often felt things were harsh or brittle at times...punchy bass,  boxy sound at times but other times there was lively detail, timbres and naturalness of the sound ,   Chalked it up to mood change or even dirty power (despite two 20 amp dedicated lines,,,sadly they are gone)  So, now Im rethinking the whole set up after I determined the Parasound JC2 has need of service.  Not really interested in listening to anything with the 105 directly feeding the Pass.  Could be tubes for output stage or even for the tubed power unit.  Just not interested in shelling out more cash for tubes that don;'t last 1/10th claimed hours (my experience at least).  Not sure of next move. Keep changing my mind.

In summary I think I was swayed by the 30.1's that gave good detail without boomy bass that rocked the entire apartment building before with the slh5's.  Now Im in a house and can crank it higher..

@cymivka - Have you ever had the sound you want using the Harbeth speakers?  If so, what I’m your system is different from that time?

I feel like the speaker is the most significant factor in the overall sound of any system.

Following this thread with interest, as I've had this issue crop up over the years across different systems. The last comment above rings true.

I'm dealing with fewer variables in some ways, as the cost of my gear hasn't justified investing in high end cables or power conditioners. Being on the lower end of the gear food chain I'm focused on bang-for-the-buck, as I work with the givens of the space- no possibility for a listening-only sound room.

First experience early on- Heresy's and '70's transistor preamp/amp (apt holman). Screechy, thin, even while room is absorbent.

Second, Cornwalls and vintage tubes (Scott, then Eico HF-81, then Anthem Integrated 1). High's tamed, now bass bloat's the issue, probably due in part to low damping factor of amps.

Started then on a rebuilt Quad ESL57-based system in LR; screech/bass bloat issues gone. Now happily working within those speakers' limitations in that space, tube rolling with a Rogue Atlas. A real late-evenings with rye on rocks system, built for sitting still in the sweet spot.

In a new workplace system I started with Altec 604G's in 620 cabinets driven by the old HF-81. Live space. Pretty good, but highs somewhat forward and harsh. Switched to Alan Eaton SET45 integrated a few days ago. Paint started peeling- the more extended bandwidth of the new amp emphasized the speakers' treble issues, and the better control of the woofer thinned out the bass, but probably made it more accurate (BTW 1.5 watts is enough!). I still suspect the combination of this amp and speakers could be great, so am investing in Jagusch crossovers that address the well known limitations of the stock crossovers (on order, may come next week).

In yet another system (in home/workplace) in a very live medium large space I've run old Monitor Audio MA-3 II 3-way speakers on custom-built Audio Note style stands (steel with lead shot). Powered by the Anthem (push-pull, with 4 EL84's per channel) it's proved extremely listenable. Earlier speaker attempts included Vandersteen II's- really veiled and laid-back. Then Snell E's- sounded like more like boxes than music. Paid a bit more for the Monitor Audios than for the Vandersteens (still only $500), but right off the bat they just sounded right. Smooth across the frequency spectrum, forgiving with mediocre recordings, revealing and tonally compelling with good ones. Then the amp caught fire after being left alone for a few months, due to a malfuctioning tube (sovtek, no fuses in amp). Switched in an old Bedini 25/25 (Transistor class A) that was OK with the Quads- but back to "thin and harsh"! Suspected degraded caps, had those fixed. Better, but I still strained to enjoy the music. Yesterday I got the Anthem back from the shop. Wow- everything's right again. Even with the terrible acoustics of the space, the music takes the tension out of my muscles instead of cranking it up. While this amp hasn't got much of a reputation (not hand-wired, not SET, small output transformers, clunky non-vintage look), it's been a real sleeper for me, playing pretty well to great with the wide variety of types of speakers tried with it, including the picky Quads.

In yet another system (vacation home), I had a heavily modded MAC 5100 integrated paired with ADS 810's. Sounded great, until it crapped out. Tried to get it repaired locally in NH- a good tech said without a schematic describing the mods he wouldn't know where to start- an idiosyncratic set of cap and transistor replacements had been soldered around and over the originals, sometimes also totally replacing them. A real homebrew job. So I sent it off Audio Classics, who restored it to factory condition. Would you believe it? Now the ADS's sound thin and bright. Ugh. Hoping break-in will take care of this.

Clear take-aways? 

If you can't change room acoustics much, the combination and interaction of amp and speakers is key. And the particulars of which amp and which speakers has a lot to do with it. While it's still clear to me that changes at the source/output locations are most consequential (eg the huge difference between a Shibata and a conical stylus), with accumulated experience it's clear how important the right (not the most expensive) power amp is.

Trusting your ears to know what's right when you hear it is crucial as well. I taught color printing for years- no two sets of eyes are alike; we all see color differently. Same with ears. Resist substituting others' experience for yours. My kids can hear 15hz clearly. I don't anymore.

I seek different experiences in my various room/system setups and enjoy learning from these variations. Maybe some day I'll reach beyond DH Labs and Blue Jeans cables and go interconnect crazy, but with the number of systems I run, that seems just a bit too high on the curve of diminishing returns for it to be worth the trouble. For the harsh/thin/bright issue working backwards from the amp/speaker combination is the best way to go, in my limited experience.

pmiller115      that's the first I've ever heard from someone having the same front end and the same problem. Been thinking for a few years the front end might be the glaring issue.  Incidentally I got the latest firmware update for the bpd 105 and it did nothing for the sound. Using it straight to the amp is still ridiculously unacceptable,  Tube change offs the edginess only slightly, No bloom no weight to the music/  I have a decent listening room now and the system sounds horrible the more I examine it.....use hi volume to try and bring it to life. Thin and hashy is all I hear.

Jond   I went back to the stock cord for the Pass into the wall as I felt the after market power chord  into the wall also added some glare.  Still sounds horrible,

Grislybutter  gonna have to try speakers and a "lesser" amp to see what is going on here.  Could be a combo of bright front end and speakers that are too small.

from my humble experience and I wrote this under this and other posts:

subs won't make it warmer.

Good speakers like the Harbeths are not NOT warm. 

That's the amp's job. I definitely wouldn't sell the Harbeths if your problem is lack of warmth  (sound too thin, too bright). In my very uneducated view, that path won't lead you where you want to be.  I had a 45 year old Marantz,  it had the warmest, smoothest sound with any sets of my speakers. I would try a cheap-ish integrated amp first. 

Try plugging your amp straight into the wall with the after market cord you were previously using. Plugging the amp into a power conditioner was a big no non which you realize now.

I also have a Modwright tube modded OPPO 105D and I have tried numerous tube combinations seeking to tame the harshness I was experiencing. After trying numerous tubes including the tubes recommended by Modwright I settled on Sylvania 6sn gtb 1950's era tubes. Much of my tube search was to attempt to tame the harshness and shrill quality of much of the upper range frequencies being produced. Yours complaint sounds like much of the same issues I was trying to resolve. I recently bought Modwirght's new "Analog Bridge" and I find that the Sylvania tubes also work well in this installation. Brent Jessee (sp.) has the tubes I am speaking about in stock and he was quite decent to deal with.  

Interesting. Definitely thinking speaker change.( bigger warmer) For sure front end change new dac and new preamp, perhaps a Benchmark HPA 4. Not much to look at (who cares) but great reviews.  Tired of the system dictating the type of music I play.  Contacted Modwright and found out that the Oppo BDP 105 had 8 firmware updates. I never did any of them. Am going to try to get that done via ethernet but am not expecting a big change in sound.

@cymivka i don’t think adding subs are the answer to this problem. Sound like you may have a connection problem or an amp problem. But “ harsh” and “bright” aren’t fixed by subs. You’ll get harsh and bright with a lot of bass. My opinion.

Sell the Harbeths. There is nothing wrong with your upstream gear, the problem is the Harbeths sound like studio monitors. Studio monitors are not “warm.” 

re room treatments: unless you are in a glass bubble, your system should have the tone and characteristics (such as warmth) you expect without room treatment. 

I fully intend to use room treatments. already using cloth at first reflection points on side walls.  Used dedicated treatments before to try and tame Harbeth slh5's with boomy bass in my old listening room.  (ended up way overdamped, got rid of all the devices to start over) I feel that I should be able to get to a decent basis point with the overall sound before buying pricey treatment options that, in my mind, should be a means of fine tuning the sound.(keep it minimal) It was my experience that room treatments did NOT have instant or dramatic impact on the overall sound. This new room could prove totally different on that score, who knows.

Meantime, think I need to try a different pre-amp and send the JC2 out for a check up and possible service. Modwright/Oppo balanced outs straight into Pass Labs X250.5 amp sounds smoother than before but not robust enough, hitting variable volume levels in the upper 50's to mid 60's out of 100 and there's too much missing.

There's been lots of talk about using a pair of subs with the 30.1's. I am open to the idea but wonder since the room is wide open behind the listening position that I might get away with 40.2's and avoid trying to sync subs.  (did not like my SLH5's) Common sense tells me that's not likely.  Loft is 13' 2" wide with side walls extending 11 feet before opening up to a very distant upstairs back wall. I sit about 9 feet back from the front wall or where the speakers are. Ceiling is vaulted 10 to 11 feet high.  I feel the big Harbeths would be too weighty in that set up but certainly would warm things up. One can dream.   

Do this just for grins to see if it’s a room treatment issue. Drag some mattresses from adjacent rooms into that room and place them against the wall and see if that makes a difference. I’m not suggesting this as a cure but to determine if it’s the room itself that is the issue. It may or may not be a big factor in what we’re talking about.

Andrew Jones tells a story about doing this at an audio show where they were stuck in hotel rooms that had terrible acoustics to do their demos. He said that they were voted the best sounding room in the show. They just asked room service for extra mattresses and placed them around, experimented and their end result apparently was quite amazing.

Not a permanent fix in any way but will certainly tell you something important.

I have 0 to contribute but I like this thread for my learning. It's weird that you have these awesome components and experience these issues. I would say synergy if I was as smart and knowledgeable as ghdprentice.

I hope it will work out for you without throwing more money at it.

When I eventually go separates ARC is top of the list. 

I have Parasound a21+, Parasound P6, and Parasound Jc3 jr. I wouldn't describe my system bright. Neutral would be a better description.