thanks for the AC check advice. I can easily go the VOM route, Listened last night after a wine or two and the system actually sounded "choked" to me at higher volume
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ah! Im a luddite (LOL) I have no internet interface with the system whatsoever. Silly, cuz I need to get into down loading and maybe streaming but want to do it right and there are SO many paths to follow. Need to research.
But I now feel the amp is my current problem. left it on all day while powering down the rest of the components. Sound was not very good. Its a bummer cause the amp is massively heavy making for a bitch of a job to send off to the maker for repairs. Oh well,
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Thanks for the replies.
Mofojo Sound is less edgy at low volume but still seems a thin NOT full at all.
Erik I am going to definitely pushem back to the wall. Very picky about set up and hate to touch when I THINK I got them dialed in.
Can't help but feel a component is letting me down. Ive heard the JC2 can be bright.
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Also mofojo may be onto something about the loudness level. I listen to rock jazz blues and some classical. Great recordings sound good to sometimes stunning. But listening at low level right now and there's just no fullness. Something I've noticed for years but always chalked it up to the other listening room
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yeah that could be the problem and ive had them for several years now
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Thanks guys much to think about
Room is 13'2" wide in a loft with side walls extending 11 feet back from the front wall where the speakers are close to. Behind the seating position about 8 feet from the speaker plane is wide open in a loft of a two story home. Ceilings is vaulted 10 to 11 feet high as it is angled. Carpet is pretty thick. No room treatments as of yet.
But as Avanti1960 speculated I USED to sit against the rear wall in the old listening room and still didn't have the warm, full sound. Bass shy for sure. Now its wide open behind me except for a four foot high wall behind the couch or seat.
As for output tubes, I have two sets aside from the stock harmonix something or others. One pair is a set of matched Tungsol 6SN7's from upscale audio. The much better set is from RCA circa 1940's 6SN7 GT's. Much more sparkle and "life" compared to the Tungsols. Tungsols help a tiny bit with edgyness but rob the sound. They can't compare to the NOS RCA's.
Still playing with speaker placement but since I mentioned that this problem has followed me from listening room to listening room it leads me to think the problem is component related?? Maybe bad synergy. Maybe speakers really aren't up to the task for high volume but still sound thin at low volume Call me crazy but even with all this the system has never sounded better, so I am re-invigorated to pin this issue down and upgrade if need be. Its nice cranking the volume without disturbing neighbors.
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Hey AK g that sounds very interesting. "digital edge" seems to hit home as to what I'm hearing along with "brightness" . Can't believe just the cables could make a dramatic difference. My speaker cables are not cardas. I got to look closer tomorrow, but they are short and fairly expensive around $1200 or so AND are bywire with low pass and high pass spade leads at each end. I double up the leads to use all of the cable. Might try just the low pass and see if that changes the sound, then I might have a base point to try different cables. Thanks..
Stands are Harbeth specific open wood, four posters.
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Yes, subs as are NOT out of the question as I think its pretty common "knowledge" that two are needed for proper two channel set ups. I've been reading that for years now.
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Mofojo Very curious about your R2r dac choice???? Denafrips??? Ive checked out a few based on another discussion I had about possibly ditching the Modwright or using the Oppo digital outs as a disc transport since the Oppo plays everything. You may have made a recommendation.. (didn;t see any pics on your profile and I hope to upload pics of my system soon) Pretty sure I want to a stand alone dac as the technology seems to change fairly often.
Thanks.
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Got time to attack this situation today. gonna start with pushing speakers back against the wall, though most advise that Harbeths need space around them. Dont want to collapse the depth of the sound stage. Will also play with moving the listening position. Gonna also try changing out the amp as I have access to nuforce 9 mono blocs that will accept balanced feed. Gotta track down Pre and cd player if these other "fixes" havn't exposed the problem. ( tried the second set of balanced outs on the Parasound and one channel, the right, was clearly louder than the other...still bright, though.) Not sure about a bass null since the problem followed me from room to room.and through a myriad of speaker placements. I feel like if an expert or fellow, experienced a-goner was in the room, they'd be able to help pinpoint the problem. Just about everyone says its hard to make the 30.1's sound bright. Just may need to upgrade many parts (front end for sure)..ad subs or even new speaks. If I had to make a wild guess I'd point an accusing finger at the Modwright,. Thanks all for your suggestions.
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As for the Oppo settings. They are pretty straight forward punched up on a tv screen. .Gone through them many times. Of course once settings are confirmed, I turn tv off and hit the "pure audio" button
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Room treatment is on the agenda. I went through this in the old place with stacking four foot bass traps in corners behind the spks and a massive wool and canvass behemoth behind the couch and an absorber on the wall just behind the seating position. Overdamped to say the least for the 30.1's. Had been trying to tame Harbeth slh5's that were just way too boomy for my apartment. With the 30.1's I took out all the treatments cept for the trap behind the couch and the absorber behind the seat and found I liked the sound much better. Going to try simple cloth or rug options in this new room just as a test once I determine that all the components are performing up to spec. I've already checked out treatments for the first reflective points on the side walls. Wanna keep it simple and relatively cheap.
Someone mentioned toe in. I barely have any at all. Adviser at Fidelis that distributes Harbeths said to point them directly at me with hard toe in. No bueno in this room. They are not firing straight out but I can see all of the inside walls on both spks. Not sure if many have purchased the "Get Better Sound" book by Jim Simith. It's loaded with all sorts of "free" tips...many which I am just up to tackling and sdI still am having problems..
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Just pushed the harbeths closer to the front wall (from 3' 2" to 2'2") tried before and after moving seating position forward. First impressions are it sounds a lot worse. No increase in bass. This seems to run counter to the laws of speaker physics. LOL. "Something" seems to be sucking some of the bottom end out. I'm not a bass junky either and I realize the 30.1's bottom out at 50HZ. Excellent recordings are still tolerable but jeese this is crazy. I am noticing that the volume is a lil higher to get the same sound level. That's a lil odd. So I'm compensating for something with the volume control. Maybe things are a little less lean...but not as loud.??? Isn't this fun!!!
Happy listening
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Hey all really do wanna get back to much more toe in as Im' missing notes that used to jump out but I can't do it yet..vocals get too in your face at higher volumes. (wasn't quite as bad an issue in the old listening room)
Mismatch in outputs could explain a lot. The Oppo does have variable volume that I currently have set at 86 out of 100. I believe Modwright recomends full 100 for more "oomph". Probably CAN try the Oppo as a pre amp. Never have but now I have a good reason.
Tomcar asked how Im' measuring speakers from the rear wall....from the rear of the speaker not the front. Now at 2 feet two inches. Trying that for awhile along with seat position moved forward a bit. Probably gonna throw some extra toe-in to see what that does...as suggested.
Using cloth at first deflection points on side walls now til I order the real deal down the road. Still think it could be a source issue as very good recordings sound pretty good/engaging. To me the system sounds very anemic off axis.
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no coiled or ribbon cables...FYI And I have suspected the Oppo being modded. Never heard it on its own...shipped it straight to Modwright for all the bells and whistles.. Have not been impressed with claims that tubes will last thousands of hours. Changed out an identical set once just for fun and couldnt believe the difference the new ones made. Old ones were not even a thousand hours old. Who knows, maybe a bad batch. I'm itchin for a new front end..dac and MAYBE transport.
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Very interesting. Sound from the system in a test last night dropped out to there was no meat on the bones of the sound. so bad I quickly changed tubes for the oppo output...still very anemic and brittle sound. Decided to power the whole system down overnight. Nothing even on stand Transformer going hay wire capacitors overloaded. Anyone experience this before???
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UPDATE
Thanks all. As i mentioned, looks like it IS the Pass Labs amp. Powered down all components overnight...turned it on the next morning things were very much improved. THEN, next day, turned everything off EXCEPT for the Pass and things were still way off the next day. Am going to trade out the Pass amp (which Ive had for almost 10 years) for digital mono blocks just to confirm this. Then get the Pass to Reno HIFI or wherever is suggested for an overhaul. Also thinking if the Pass needs some capacitors replaced it couldnt hurt to send the Parasound jc2 in for a good check up at the same time.
Silver lining: In moving the speakers and listening position all around the room in chasing down the sound gremlin (as many suggested) I think I have a perfect starting point for speaker placement once all the gear is up to spec. The speakers ended up closer to the rear wall and a tad further away from sidewalls with fairly aggressive toe-in. Sounded a lot like I remembered on favorite recordings after the total power down test.
A pair of subs and new front end are still on the wish list.
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Another update and reversal. Spoke with Mark at Reno HIFI where the Pass amp came from (x250.5) After telling me that the amp is likely not the culprit and describing what I SHOULD hear if something in the amp was failing. I finally hooked up the balanced outs from the Modwright/Oppo directly to the amp using the variable output for volume control. (many here had suggested that, Im just a slow study) Much better, smoother but kind of laid back lacking a little in dynamics.
Then, per Mark, pulled out the stock power chord to the amp and disconnected amp from the power conditioner via after market chord and used stock chord from wall straight into amp. Better still, Parasound JC2 is now out of the mix...power conditioner still handles modified disc player. Gonna pursue future upgrades from this particular set up. Front end first, I think. Still wondering if a better preamp might bring more to the party???
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I think I need to try a different pre amp the ooomph has gone away. Not as bright and brittle but less weight.
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I fully intend to use room treatments. already using cloth at first reflection points on side walls. Used dedicated treatments before to try and tame Harbeth slh5's with boomy bass in my old listening room. (ended up way overdamped, got rid of all the devices to start over) I feel that I should be able to get to a decent basis point with the overall sound before buying pricey treatment options that, in my mind, should be a means of fine tuning the sound.(keep it minimal) It was my experience that room treatments did NOT have instant or dramatic impact on the overall sound. This new room could prove totally different on that score, who knows.
Meantime, think I need to try a different pre-amp and send the JC2 out for a check up and possible service. Modwright/Oppo balanced outs straight into Pass Labs X250.5 amp sounds smoother than before but not robust enough, hitting variable volume levels in the upper 50's to mid 60's out of 100 and there's too much missing.
There's been lots of talk about using a pair of subs with the 30.1's. I am open to the idea but wonder since the room is wide open behind the listening position that I might get away with 40.2's and avoid trying to sync subs. (did not like my SLH5's) Common sense tells me that's not likely. Loft is 13' 2" wide with side walls extending 11 feet before opening up to a very distant upstairs back wall. I sit about 9 feet back from the front wall or where the speakers are. Ceiling is vaulted 10 to 11 feet high. I feel the big Harbeths would be too weighty in that set up but certainly would warm things up. One can dream.
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Interesting. Definitely thinking speaker change.( bigger warmer) For sure front end change new dac and new preamp, perhaps a Benchmark HPA 4. Not much to look at (who cares) but great reviews. Tired of the system dictating the type of music I play. Contacted Modwright and found out that the Oppo BDP 105 had 8 firmware updates. I never did any of them. Am going to try to get that done via ethernet but am not expecting a big change in sound.
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pmiller115 that's the first I've ever heard from someone having the same front end and the same problem. Been thinking for a few years the front end might be the glaring issue. Incidentally I got the latest firmware update for the bpd 105 and it did nothing for the sound. Using it straight to the amp is still ridiculously unacceptable, Tube change offs the edginess only slightly, No bloom no weight to the music/ I have a decent listening room now and the system sounds horrible the more I examine it.....use hi volume to try and bring it to life. Thin and hashy is all I hear.
Jond I went back to the stock cord for the Pass into the wall as I felt the after market power chord into the wall also added some glare. Still sounds horrible,
Grislybutter gonna have to try speakers and a "lesser" amp to see what is going on here. Could be a combo of bright front end and speakers that are too small.
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Mceljo: The 30'1's replaced Harbeth slh5's that were too boomy in the old listening room. Thought the 30.1's were just right with the right recordings coupled with the modwrighted oppo bdp 105. But I often felt things were harsh or brittle at times...punchy bass, boxy sound at times but other times there was lively detail, timbres and naturalness of the sound , Chalked it up to mood change or even dirty power (despite two 20 amp dedicated lines,,,sadly they are gone) So, now Im rethinking the whole set up after I determined the Parasound JC2 has need of service. Not really interested in listening to anything with the 105 directly feeding the Pass. Could be tubes for output stage or even for the tubed power unit. Just not interested in shelling out more cash for tubes that don;'t last 1/10th claimed hours (my experience at least). Not sure of next move. Keep changing my mind.
In summary I think I was swayed by the 30.1's that gave good detail without boomy bass that rocked the entire apartment building before with the slh5's. Now Im in a house and can crank it higher..
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My cardas cables are Clear Cygnus balanced/xlr from cd to pre and pre to amp.
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I am considering the xp-12 but first want to try taking the Oppo out of the mix with a high end dac.
I feel the sound gets more hashy and bright as the system warms up after being powered down overnight. (not real smooth or great sounding at the start either, just worse as it warms up) Might have to do with tubes, I have 3 sets of output tubes with low hours, No real difference when I change them out when the brightness shows, So maybe rectifier or other tubes in the separate power supply?? Have to hunt those down but only after trying a dac change first. Really not into tube rolling,
And yes still gotta get around to taking pics and posting on my profile,
Thanks all for your input. Im taking my time before throwing more dollars at this but I know its inevitable as perhaps being more critical I have higher expectations than before.
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Update:
Thanks to yyzsantabarbara I learned that the jc2 pre amp is out of whack and since I bought yy's Musetec dac I am not willing to wait for the jc2 to be repaired. (shipping, turnaround time) . Just ordered a Benchmark LA4 preamp after hearing it played on yyzsantabarbara's impressive set up. (plus his glowing reviews and vast experimentation with all sorts of pricey gear) Really don't think I can go wrong for the price...30 day trial and all. Now have to put on my 21st century ears and get into streaming the right way. Might have something more to ad once the LA$ arrives.
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Just tried Musetec 005 dac (already broken in) fed by Oppo bdp 105 via optical out (cd) with dac fed straight into the Pass Labs X250.5 (by passing Modwrighted tubed output) (jc2 headed back to Parasound for repair) Unfortunately my 105 does not have usb audio output.
Far from best set up. Waiting for Benchmark LA4 to be shipped.
BUT....First impressions: sound is cleaner, fuller if not a lil recessed compared to what I had before especially with the oppo feeding the amp directly. (unlistenable) there's a deeper soundstage...voices don't glare as much. And there's more pronounced instrument separation. This is all very promising. Hoping new pre amp will bring more low end and smooth out the top end. LA4, though, is said to let the source and amp shine...no fixing the sound. CDP might need replacing...then gotta pin down streaming.
But can listen to this while waiting for the new pre
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Update.
Seems like the bright sound gremlin was lurking in the Pass Labs amp. After new dac and preamp I finally unhooked the Pass and stuck in my older Nuforce V3 monoblocs that were just collecting dust. I'm very surprised how good they sound with the dac and pre It;ll be interesting to see what a difference a repaired Pass amp can make.. Oppo 105 is acting as a transport.. Not done by a long shot yet. Chasing a warmer bigger sound. Pro Ject Transport may be next as its gotten lots of praise in these forums.
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A dealer suggested a failing power supply. Something is off with it for sure.
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yeah audphile 1 it is puzzling to me as well. I found the same degradation in sound quality again with the pass labs replaced after a couple of hours listening. I have called pass labs or Reno hifi where I purchased the amp from (back in 2014) and they tell me I would hear something different if the amp was to blame, like clicking and that both channels would not likely degrade at the same pace.
I can't figure out what goes wrong...just some distortion and less meat on the bones. Felt new pre and dac fixed it but then it came back (bad sound) so I took the pass labs out of the mix and things sounded pretty good still using an Oppo bdp 105 as a transport via coax cable from DH Labs. I'm bypassing the tubed output stage using digital out.
There are only two components left the Oppo and the Harbeth 30.1 speakers. Also wondering if there some type of electrical bugaboo in the house that's only 5 years old. I am using a Puritain 156 conditioner for all components except for the pass. I felt the Puritan really made a big difference and even tried it with the pass but pass labs recommends plugging straight into a wall socket with stock cord.
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adnorab
thanks for your input. I still come back to the oppo as my main problem aside from room maybe too big for the Harbeth 30.1's (no rear wall) I find i cannot tolerate music past 70 dcbls. voices "kill" in trying to get the music to excite the listening room. Very irritating. I am running the oppo as a transport through a puritain 156 conditioner into a very good dac. Using an after market power cord (Puritain).
Sounds pretty good with the right recording at moderate levels. Looking to try out another cd/transport before replacing the oppo.
Also need to check voltage levels when sound gets worse.
Thanks
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E.S I haven't delved into actually measuring power. Don't have the gear or real knowhow for that matter.
Had a windstorm last night but the system didn't seem to exhibit any real symptoms. Just the usual lean/bright sound with lesser quality recordings, (voices way too hot)
Aldnorab I am by passing the oppo/modwright dac for a musetec dac that sounds pretty good with the right recordings. Connected via a DHLabs rca coax. Even using the analog, tubed outputs of the modwrighted oppo in the past, I always felt the sound was a little brittle or hard. The musetec dac brings a whole different sound..more detail, and layers of instruments and voices with more separation.. Hard/brittle sound has not been eliminated. (weakest link the oppo?)
Oppo 105 as transport
Musetec 005 dac ( xlr balanced outs)
Benchmark LA4 Pre (xlr balanced outs)
Pass Labs X250.5 amp
Harbeth 30.1's
Just wanna get to a decent base point before deciding on possibly changing speakers. I love what the harbeths do but they lack bass/involvement and I no longer need to be bass shy since I don't live in an apartment at this time.
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Seems to me more and more the 30.1's are just not big enough. Room treatments and less speaker toe in will likely help but not fix the sound.
Earthbound I am seriously considering subs but a pair of rel s510's would be pretty pricey. The rel website configured that a pair of t7x's would work based on limited data punched into it's questionnaire,,,speaker brand...model...room square footage and such. I have read threads saying its very hard to integrate subs but also others praising the use of subs. I already believe two is the proper way to go to.
I'm waiting for a new cd transport to arrive to see what that might offer. (probably not the magic bullet but the new one should be better than the Oppo bdp 105.)
vrao 81 I have a couple of after market power cords including one for the cd player acting as a transport (puritain along with the Puritain 156 conditioner) The others probably aren't high end.
pointtrucking I THINK its phase correct as some recordings sound very good.
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Update
New cd transport (Project RS2T) has killed most of the bugaboos for harsh sound. I am now on the right path without even doing room treatments. .Oppo bdp105 was just lean and bright in comparison. Clean power, stereo subs (recommended by many here, thank you) and room treatments (also recommended here) are next and not necessarily in that order. Clearly bits are NOT just bits...the transport into a decent dac is a game changer in my system/room. Thanks all for all the help.
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