Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@arafiq ​​​​@lalitk .  The Linkup ethernet cable is interesting to me if it beats my Supra cat 8.  There are two versions; 22 AWG and 26 AWG.  I assume it is the 22 AWG you are using?  Thanks!  Trying a new NA Muon AES Cable tonight, comparing to my K-S Elation.  Still using the Aries G2.1 and waiting on my Grimm!

Soon!  I am planning on putting the Grimm MU1 in my main set up, running 
Roon Core and AES into my Tambaqui.  My other system and bedroom endpoints will be on the network.

“I tried alternating between LEDs on and off and lo and behold the highs and details returned with them turned off”

Innuos has a thing where they are always saying how noisy led’s can be.  It’s why they go “stealth mode” for the most part.  But this sounds like they must be really noisy!

LEDs hurt the sound. I learned this long ago. I have disabled all the LEDs (possible) in my gear. 

I've read that LEDs are noisy and think it was over on AS. Everything matters for sure.

@fastfreight 

I started using the LinkUp 8 Network cable in 2021. I put it in my system one 1M section at a time. Each time I did, the system just got better. I am using the 22 AWG Yellow version. This cable has excellent bandwidth performing well top to bottom - the noise floor is significantly lowered. I've not heard cables in the $250-$1,000 range, but I've had other value cables and the LinkUp 8 is on-another-planet better. -I will be interested in your Muon AES cable observations. I'm also thinking about going to the Muon Pro to see if it can beat my ER + LPS - I like that it is passive (I know grannyring likes it better and that was on the Muon and I think Lalitk also liked the ENO better). And so if the Muon Pro works out, I could use my Paul Hynes SR4T LPS on my ONT & Router.

"I've read that LEDs are noisy"

Don't believe everything you read an LED is a semiconductor and no more subject or vulnerable to noise than any other semiconductor. Most diodes including LED's are dead silent although they are often used in improper, flawed, poorly designed circuits so that the result is noise but that is the circuit not the diode.

LEDs add noise. Bypass and listen. In a well resolving system with a person who cares about such sonic things the sonic impact can be heard. Yes I am a crazy audiofool so try for yourself and let your own ears and system decide. 

Hey @grannyring 

I'd like to try that so I'm wondering, how do you bypass or turn off LEDs? I'm not aware of how to do so. I guess this has to do with you being a DIY guy and may be above my skill level.

The latest Tambaqui update includes dimming / turning off the LED's!

@fastfreight Thanks for the heads up!  I asked Mola Mola if the LEDs could be dimmed in May ‘22, and at that time they said “we are working on a firmware update that adds the functionality”, but I finally gave up checking for an update.  It is great to see they finally made it happen!

@rockrider Yes it is!  Now I am waiting on Audionet who told me the same thing about their Stern Screen going completely dark!  I have covered the power buttons on my amps, so that screen is the last night sky pollution!

@johnah5 - could not agree more.  I wish I had a dime every time I heard these statements.  In the NYC area we have heard so much gear and we all scratch our heads every time someone brings a unit of some kind by for a listen and walks away with nothing special.  Plenty of dealers and reviews also.

Happy Listening.

i am 73 so my hearing is going.  no point in spending $10000 on a streamer.  the Node 2i is just fine.

@malibu457

but for those still able to hear….there are levels of magnitude more performance available. If you are saying I shouldnt spend more money on an Aurender, Taiko or Grimm because you can’t hear the difference….I guess I would have to disagree with your premise. The Node is a fine streamer and if it meets your qualitative threshold, thats awesome.

what do you get specifically for the extra $9500? and can a streamed file compete with say a hi-res download from Presto music?

I think my experience adding the PhoenixUSB Reclocker to my Innuos Zenith might be a good example of how your streaming performance can be upgraded with more investment. In my case it added precision in the sense of greater focus and clarity for individual sounds, soundstage depth and cleaner separation, and overall more well defined positioning of sounds. It’s not a small difference. I’m hoping that the Grimm MU1 will level these and other qualities up yet again, but the jury is out on that one until I get my unit in my system and broken in. I’ve also realized that I’m seeking a flatter frequency response in the bass and midrange, than my current DAC module seems to offer (coloration is boosted bass or recessed mids - not entirely sure which, or if it matters as it’s relative).  I’m not sure the MU1 will address that issue, as my testing of the outboard Merason DAC 1 seems to address the tonal issues, while being less resolving than my much more pricey Gryphon DAC (albeit with basic RCA cables that limit the DAC1’s performance until I get my new cables in)..

I’ve often wondered about my hearing. Tested about 5 years back, and my higher frequency sensitivity is going down, but nothing that is out of step and normal for my age. Maybe that’s the reason I no longer struggle with “brightness” in my system…. But I doubt it!

I was encouraged when I read that Dave Grohl was stating how he is totally deaf and can’t even communicate when he is at the checkout of a supermarket or out at a dinner in a restaurant. Here is the part I was encouraged by:

"My ears are still tuned in to certain frequencies, and if I hear something that’s slightly out of tune, or a cymbal that’s not bright enough or something like that, in the mix, I can f—ing hear the minutiae of everything that we have done to that song; I really can,"

Which maybe not saying much given their music, but that’s probably mean and unfair of me to say!

@malibu457

what do you get specifically for the extra $9500? and can a streamed file compete with say a hi-res download from Presto music?

Hi Malibu. Let me begin by saying I am not familiar with presto music. My own, likely flawed, methodology has to do with evaluating four or five tracks from different artists. I choose the tracks based on subjective listening first to their redcook cd versions ripped to the internal drive of my server. The tracks were chosen because I found the redbook versions to be well recorded. I have then also acquired those same tracks in the same resolution from a few of the usual online services. I then compared the tracks by listening. I found no discernable differences in listening. This was over a period of several different servers (Macbook Pro, Mac Mini, Innuos Zenith and now a Grimm MU1). As I moved through the servers over the years, the streamed versions always trailed qualitatively. The Innuos narrowed the gap considerably, which was the epiphany for me. Better streamers (and better ethernet chain) made a difference. With the Grimm those same tracks become virtually identical on playback. With the Grimm’s 4fs upsampling engaged, the upsampled track streamed from Qobuz is so close that I can’t tell them apart from the non upsampled redbook local file. The upsampled local file does pull ever so slightly ahead but again, the sound quality differences are minute.

What does all this mean? To me I believe I have, in my system, minimized the degradation that must be occurring with the internet sourced streamed file. This is in my system to my ears in my room. I hear the differences and I hear the differences become indistinguishable. How can we be certain the streamed version is the exact, identical file? We can’t but with careful listening we make an educated assumption. There is some music that hasnt been remastered, just replicated online…ripped by the service. How can we be sure that online hirez streamed files are really higher resolution? We can’t. We just have to trust our ears and some software analysis. Some of us here have experimented with software analysis and compared the streamed files with local files.

So, what does all this mean and why should you trust me? You shouldn’t trust me….you should trust you. You should do as you are doing and trust your own ears. Your impressions of the spatial cues, tone, texture, dynamics, frequency extremes, etc will either tell you that you are on to something or there is no difference. Your results are applicable to you and that’s the cool thing about the hobby. If you find no difference then for you, there is no difference and no need to chase anything “more”. But if you do hear a meaningful difference between a streamed track and the same track stored locally, then (provided you are curious) you owe it to yourself to understand why. Everyone on Audiogon recognizes this is the point of departure from a sane and casual system approach and the far more costly approach of optimizing the chain. We all set our own $$ parameters and the energy required to get there. Its either worth it to you to go there or it isnt…there is no right or wrong decision but there is also no universal template to objectively apply to others. Our values and resources are different.

With absolutely no offense intended, if your local files sound identical to those streamed over a Node2i then several things are at play. There is a bottleneck limiting sound quality. Either your system’s ability to resolve musical material is “maxed out” at your present level or your local server is compromised to an extent that the best sound you can get stops at a certain level. I bought a Node not long ago thinking it would be fine for a minimalist setup in a teritiary room in my home. I let it burn in and it frankly sounded muffled and flat…in a word, it sounded broken. I then moved it into my main system and it sounded seriously compromised. So, if you are happy, then you have achieved an appropriate system balance for you and your goals. That’s great and you will get nothing from me but sincere congratulations because enjoying our music is what its all about. Please believe me, I wish I could have stopped long ago on this journey but once you’ve made a system modification that narrows the sound quality gap between streamed internet files from streamed local files then there is no denying musical material is being compromised. The mere act of improving the streamed internet file vs the local file is a clear indication to me that the data is there for the taking if you are willing to go after it.

Think of your streamer as a disc transport. You would agree wouldnt you that there are differences in sound quality between transports right? Do yourself a favor though, if you are convinced you have an optimized setup then DO NOT go listen to a truly optimized setup…it will be a costly mistake. You say your hearing is diminished but I hear the differences at every frequency I am able to hear and I really sense the differences with soundstage and spatial cues. I get it that you can’t imagine HOW there could be a difference worth “$9,500 extra” but there are differences. The fallacy of these arguments is humorous because some assume anyone who spends more than they did are being duped out of their money. LOL. Smart enough to make it but not smart enough to hold onto it? LOL. I contend that to those who deny additional value exists above a certain level or pricepoint just aren’t thinking clearly. But I get it, sometimes not knowing what you are missing is the path to maximum musical enjoyment.

@ghasley 

+1

Well put indeed.

Charles

@ghasley @nyev

While I appreciate your posts, but I’m afraid you’re not going to change the closed-off mentality of folks like @malibu457. Most people know it is the provenance of a file that is of utmost importance over a particular format. There are plenty of files over streaming that sounds better over downloads, CD or Vinyl and vice versa.

Just read some of @malibu457 posts on other streamer threads,

@lalitk 

I hold out hope that if we are patient with one another and just share what has worked for us, the curious will see for themselves….or not. Either way, posts like I just shared with @malibu457 might be applicable to him/her/they or it might be applicable to someone who might visit this thread next week or next month or next year. LOL…or not.

I recognize that not everyone is after what I’m after…but I hope that my posts in reply to malibu’s posts were a kind nudge to communicate what I and many others are trying to accomplish isn’t remotely close to what he’s trying to accomplish. Happiness can be found on both roads by different people…we’ve been down his road, he hasn’t been down ours.

thanks for the reply, could be that i should look at a new streamer.  friend sells Arunder.  i have an excellent Denafrips DAC and a Rega integrated, but could look into their latest offerings.  i attend the Symphony even though its a 3hr flight from where i live out in the country.  and yes i even my aging ears can tell the difference between live musicians.  so their is still hope.

@malibu457 I’m envious that you have access to wonderful live music and I’m further impressed by the effort you must make to do so. Kudos to you!

Seriously, if you are happy and content with your sound then you are doing it right. If you are curious though, the Aurender streamer/servers are terrific. There is no substitute for hearing it in your system. I believe your gear, depending on your speakers, should show you the next level of performance that an Aurender could deliver. Do make note, and I apologize for redundant info if that is the case, but if you utilize Roon then the Aurender will not run with Roon. The Aurender has a proprietary interface and software, which they believe sounds better.

Best wishes and even though our hearing evolves, sometimes in unwelcome ways, there is so much enjoyment with music played back through great gear that there are more discoveries in your future. For the record, I found that my hearing began to suffer greatly on my wedding day and has degraded precipitously since that time. Best wishes.

@ghasley,  "Do yourself a favor though, if you are convinced you have an optimized setup then DO NOT go listen to a truly optimized setup…it will be a costly mistake."​​​​​​

Boy daddy is that true!  I have loved and listened to my music all my life. But I first heard the magic about 5 years ago.  I was looking for an integrated to make music in my basement -  a second system for working on my model railroad.   I visited a local dealer and was auditioning the Halo integrated.  It seemed to sound just fine.  then the dealer switched in an Esoteric DAC. OH MY.  I heard it.  And now, like you, I evaluate every upgrade with my ears and love and appreciate all the improvements, some small some huge.  And then I will often take it away, and the 'missing it' confirms things.  It is like turning my subs off, you just plain miss them.  We all value what we value, and it is indeed very individual.  The Node is a great example; most of us have had or heard one.  It does the job.  Great for many, inadequate for some.  

“For the record, I found that my hearing began to suffer greatly on my wedding day and has degraded precipitously since that time. “

@ghasley , you might be on to something. Someone should do a study! In the interest of science. There is also the phenomenon that I’ve noticed, where I’ve oddly found it has been more difficult to acquire new gear following my wedding day. I wonder if the issues are related….

Just met someone who bought a pair of Sonus Faber Amati’s, the brand new edition, and he’s not planning to tell his wife until after they arrive!  Brave soul!

My time with the Merason DAC-1 has been truly enlightening. Pretty much everything I said above that I attributed to my Innuos gear I now realize was coming from my Diablo DAC module. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s an excellent performer more resolution than the DAC-1 (which is unfair to say as my DAC-1 remains hobbled by my current basic RCA cable at its lower output voltage vs balanced).

But the significant bottom-up balance of the Gryphon DAC really constrains the midrange. The DAC-1 is showing me how expressive the midrange can be, with far more emotion. And as I mentioned, it’s nothing to do with performance of the DAC other than being neutral.  Some songs are now a fundamentally different experience with a fuller and open mid.

Nothing I haven’t said already as I continue to wait for the MU1 and cables, but my realization is, I think my focus on the DAC side of things is really increasing. Will wait to see how the MU1 does with the Gryphon DAC before doing anything drastic, but I’m not sure the MU1 would actually change the heavy tonal balance of my Gryphon DAC. @ghasley I think was predicting where this might end up. I’ve now been looking into the Tambaqui.

Will take it slow though - as I need to! A few things I need to take care of on the financial side of things before I go down that path. Will give me a chance to get to know the MU1 first. Which is apparently ready to ship next week, but shipping will take some time…. Might be a couple more weeks.

I have only heard good things about the MU1. My experience with various DIY streamers and servers has been quiet revealing to say the least over the years. I have found that a extremely well made (carefully chosen h/w with supporting s/w) streamer/server can turn the table up-side down. The better these sources are the less I have found the differences between the DACs. Off-coarse there is a balancing act that plays here - for example, a $50k will obviously sound better than a $5k DAC with the same streamer/server but a well executed $5k DAC can walk toe-to-toe or even better with a better streamer/server than a mediocre streamer/server paired with a $8-10k DAC. I would hold onto unless the MU1 is in hand and you have the chance to play with your current DAC and find the synergy.

Having said that, I wonder if anyone here has compared the MU1 with the best of the servers available in the market today - like Innuos statement or the Taiko Extreme or the PF Ultra or the Antipodes ?

@debjit_g , on other forums and also in some reviews, I’ve seen people mostly say that the Taiko Extreme bests the MU1. At a more “Extreme” cost, of course….

In terms of generalizations I think Christiaan at HiFi Advice seems to do a good job describing the differences between the K50 and MU1, as others seem to agree with him. Check out the reviews and his short YouTube video where he contrasts the two products sound differences. He declared them both “favourites”. I’ve not seen any comparisons at all with the Statement. But all are great from what I understand. Stereophile should be doing their review of the new Statement with Next Gen power supply anytime now. For what it’s worth. They’ve been testing it for many months. I know pro reviews are of limited value but it can help in a general way. Stereophile raves about the K50 and the MU1, but I thought their original Statement review seemed to be less enthusiastic. Not bad, but just not using any of the typical superlatives. So it will be interesting to see what they say about the new version and whether they put it on a pedestal like they did with the MU1 and K50. Statement next-Gen is in a higher price tier though, more along the lines of the Antipodes Oladra.  Not that price means anything but sometimes it does (see the Taiko Extreme).

A used mint condition Mola Mola Tambaqui came up for sale from a Canadian distributor for a fair price, so I went for it. Really looking forward to listening to this pairing, comparing with the Diablo DAC, and comparing with my Innuos Zenith Mk III & PhoenixUSB.  The prior owner of my Tambaqui traded it in for a Kassandra.

I feel like this should be a winning combo (one of the designers who had a hand in designing the MU1 also designed the Tambaqui). Not too concerned buying the MU1 and Tambaqui unheard; these two products sell fast on the used market. But hoping I don’t have to go there!

My phone wants to enter “Tampon” every time I write Tambaqui.

Better get that autocorrect for "Tambaqui" fixed as I see you writing a lot about it in the future!

I’ve reverted back to causal listening mode for the past while while waiting for the MU1, Tambaqui, and fancy cables to arrive - just enjoying music. I tend to flip between states with the most time just listening to music.

But a day ago my used Tambaqui arrived. I couldn’t wait for my Shunyata cables to arrive, so I picked up a pair of Audioquest Red River balanced cables to try it with. The Tambaqui only has balanced output connections so I couldn’t use my RCA cables. My first impression after a day of listening - wow, I’ve heard this effect before! Will get to that later.

This is an utterly different sound than what I experienced with the Merason, with my Gryphon Diablo DAC, and with the Aurender N20. In fact this is at the totally opposite end of the spectrum from my experience with the Aurender N20. Here is what I found:

• Unbridled resolution at all frequencies. Without being lean or bright!
• Resolute, stable, rock-solid bass and mid frequencies. Density is great despite the extreme clarity.
• Lighting fast. Like really, really fast. Transients are really, really quick but not at all hard
• Neutrality compared to my Gryphon DAC module which has a boosted low end. So yes, the Tambaqui has less bass and for once I consider this a good thing with other elements being allowed to shine as they are supposed to.
• More bass snap/punch
• Imaging is fantastic with tremendous solidity with respect to positioning.
• Everything is effortless and unforced, but lively and engaging
• Really, really great connection with the music. Not sterile despite the extreme precision.
• Better fine dynamics than my Gryphon DAC
• My Innuos PhoenixNET Ethernet switch is a match made in heaven. It takes the Tambaqui’s sound and adds a focused liquidity to it. Although I guess technically it’s the other way around considering the signal flow.

Music is just fantastic and it’s actually tough to listen critically which is just great! This is clearly better than my Gryphon Diablo DAC module.

Are there any negatives yet? Two but these don’t bug me one bit:

• Could use a touch more body to have vocals and instruments be “larger” - maybe? But maybe this would remove the space needed to do all the things it does so well. So I don’t really think this is a real criticism.
• The space between vocals and all instruments is highly precise, but maybe with not quite as much distance between everything compared with my Gryphon DAC? With all of the positives I don’t even think of this as a negative, more of just a point of note. My Shunyata Omega AES and Sigma NR V2 balanced cables should help separate things when they arrive, not to mention the 4X hardware oversampling of the MU1. Which I’m told is in-transit finally!

Really liking this and feel it is totally aligned with what I am seeking. But it may not be for everyone. It reminds me of exactly the qualities that my Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables provided - detail that was really satisfying, delivered with lightning speed and without any lean-ness or hardness.

While this is right up my alley I could see how some may prefer a more fleshy and organic sound closer to what the Aurender N20 offered. But this is just perfect for me. And there is no tension or nervousness that my Gryphon DAC exhibits. It’s completely taken away my urge to tweak. I WILL tweak but because I will consciously do so rather than feeling compelled to do so. I haven’t even removed my speaker grills because it just sounds great and I’m too busy listening to music! This is effortless stress free listening - but with gobs and gobs of detail!

I know the less good things tend to come out with extended listening over weeks. But I really feel like I know this type of sound from my experience with my Valhalla 2 speaker cables, oddly, and that it’s totally aligned with my tastes. I would think that anyone who likes the Valhalla 2 speaker cables, which I know is not everyone, should really try this DAC. I know some people don’t like the Valhalla 2’s but I imagine some of these people may be exposing issues elsewhere in their system with the Valhalla 2’s and attributing the brightness they hear to them. Even in this thread I’ve been blaming issues on the wrong components only to find out later! On that note I’ve always thought the Diablo may not be the fastest sounding amp around but turns out it was the Gryphon DAC module holding things back.

The Tambaqui is clearly a cut above the Merason at more than double the price. But I will go back to the Merason to try it with the balanced interconnects. I still really like this DAC!

Will be interesting to see what the MU1 can do with my Gryphon DAC but at this point I’m guessing I’ll be stuck on the Tambaqui permanently. It’s perplexing how it can be so revealing while totally avoiding sounding lean and while being so musically engaging.

Oh and just for reference - this was all done with the USB output from my Innuos Zenith MK3 and PhoenixUSB.

Sound wise, I’d be totally happy if this was the end of the line. I could live happily with this sound.  But now I’m at +1 boxes until my MU1 arrives!

Glad you’re enjoying it. The Tambaqui is a great piece. Some criticize it as bright. I think it’s even-handed across all frequencies — if it’s bright when added to a system, there’s something else wrong in the system, in my opinion.

My system building approach is to go after neutrality/balance in all components. Otherwise you’re forever spinning your wheels (x has hot treble, let me add this rolled off component etc…that’s a recipe for endless tinkering - which is maybe the goal for some folks)

The Grimm will be a slam dunk. Especially with the Tambaqui. Keep having fun, that’s what it’s all about.

“if it’s bright when added to a system, there’s something else wrong in the system, in my opinion”

I agree @metaldetektor and that’s exactly my opinion of what people are experiencing when they feel Nordost Valhalla 2 cables are bright (although I found some of them have less bass but not the speaker cables). Revealing equipment can reveal other issues, and in fact the Nordost cables did for me - which took me down a major upgrade path over the past 1.5 years, one that I’m now finally feeling like I’m truly nearing the end of.  For the time being of course….

I completely understand how some might prefer a warmer, richer, fuller sound at the expense of detail, neutrality and precision, a sound that some might use the word “analog” to describe.  But yeah I think what you said applies to me - if I go that route I’m forever chasing issues.  It’s deceiving because the overall tone of the Gryphon DAC module is so pleasing that you don’t at first realize the trade offs.  And to be fair I didn’t start noticing them until my system became more revealing.

The reason I went with Shunyata cables in the end (Omega AES and Sigma NR V2) is because I was impressed by a home demo / bake-off I did with Shunyata Omega vs Audioquest Dragon power cords on my Gryphon integrated, a couple of years back.  The Shunyata was great even though I chose the Dragon, and the Shunyata had this lush, liquid smoothness to it with an immersive soundstage.  While still being utterly transparent and neutral.  And I’ve heard people say the same about Shunyata’s digital cords.  I thought this might come be a good match considering the high precision front end gear I’m adding.  
 

Regarding balanced interconnects, I know some say the grade of balanced cables doesn’t matter as much, and I know people feel YouTube HiFi comparisons are absurd.  But @jays_audio_lab replaced Transparent interconnects and compared with Sigma NR V2 balanced interconnects…  Listen to the intermittent high-hat after 4:30 and compare with the same after 11:00.  Easily heard on my phone speakers even, but more pronounced on my tiny desktop Bose computer speakers!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NBuGLB1naqY

“It’s perplexing how it can be so revealing while totally avoiding sounding lean and while being so musically engaging.”

@nyev

In my experience it is not! You are probably experiencing a complete transformation with Tambaqui DAC. A purpose built onboard DAC is exactly that regardless of its cost and not without its limitations which are only exposed once you have the opportunity to compare it with a well executed SOTA DAC like Tambaqui. You know the age old debate, Integrated vs Separates. There is a reason why separates (pre, amp, DAC, streamer) continues to exist and thrive in high performance systems. I read somewhere not too long ago, unless you’re a true music aficionado, an external DAC or a streamer is just an additional expense…..well what do you say to that :-)

You started out this journey by stating something like, “I prefer not to add more boxes and the additional expense of cabling”. The million dollar question now is, once you’ve heard Tambaqui DAC + MU1 at more than twice the cost of your existing setup, will you be going back to Innuos + Gryphon DAC? Is this Transformation worth the additional cost?????

H @lalitk , “transformative” is a good word that I would apply to how I would describe the magnitude of difference that the Tambaqui brings. That said, I normally would use that word for when anyone, not just me, and not just audiophiles, would notice the magnitude of difference in quality. Upgrading my speakers did that in my house. As did my amp. But my family has not commented on the sound since adding the Mola Mola. That said, for me, I continue to be amazed. It’s got the quietness of a high end power conditioner, but none of the constraints on the sound that I found those products all are affected by. And it just gets closer to the sound of actual music vs a digital HIFi system. This morning I did a few back and forths with my Gryphon DAC, which lists for USD $6,000. My initial reaction to going back was “oh that is nice and smooth sounding”. But one moment later I was realizing that the smoothness was simply less musical information coming through, that the sound was less defined, that the bass was more big and round but far less resolute and driving, and that it was tougher to follow the music.

My objectives did evolve in this thread based on discussion, thanks to @ghasley’s suggestions. That said, I only expand the number of cables significantly if I stay with my Innuos server + reclocker solution. If the MU1 is better, it will replace both Innuos boxes and I will be at the same number of boxes as I was at when I started out. The balanced interconnect was an extra cable however.  There is still an off-chance that the MU1 will lift the Gryphon DAC to the extent the Tambaqui is not needed.  But I think the chances of that might be slim.

Currently, the Tambaqui is feeling really special; I like it as much as my Gryphon amp. I’ve not felt that way about any other components in my system, even though some do a really excellent job too (PhoenixNET, Torus, etc).

Back to the MU1, it will be interesting if it is an upgrade from my two Innuos boxes. Christiaan at HiFi Advice has said that subsequent revisions of hardware, software and Roon have changed the MU1 since his review. And one comment I saw was that Roon 2.0 did cause the MU1 to become more subdued which was less to his liking. He said he’s stopped using the MU1 as a lead reference because of how Roon updates can cause swings in sound quality. One disadvantage of the MU1 to be aware of I guess. At least, until Grimm provides alternative and more stable sounding player software support as an alternative to Roon.

I just looked up the Grimm MU1. Retail price $12,500 without any internal SSD included. Wow! Pricey. A couple of observations:

1) Processor: Intel i3 2-Core. Definitely sufficient for Roon with no DSP, and with not a huge Roon library. But certainly not very powerful for those who use DSP (not me) and with big libraries

2) Memory: 4MB RAM. Again, not impressive.

3) No USB audio (to DAC) output. Hmmmm…. 
4) I don’t see any proprietary streaming software/ music management program (like Innuos Sense). Roon OK, I get that, but then you are at the mercy of Roon for everything.

I am definitely curious about Grimm, given the reports & reviews, but these observations give me pause. A friend of mine ordered one a few days ago, so I should be able to learn more from “real life” experiences in a few weeks.

@thyname , yes the Grimm is known for doing more with less, and the price did just go up $2,500 right after I bought it. Being hostage to Roon updates with potential impacts to sound is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the MU1 takes control and Roon does less to the sound than in most cases. At least so I’ve read. But as I said above the MU1 apparently IS subject to SQ variances with Roon updates.

I would imagine Grimm is hard at work developing the support to use an alternate player, or even their own player. Maybe it will coincide with the launch of the MU2 player/DAC combo?

Of all its weaknesses you mentioned, this is the only one I really care about.  

@nyev : of course, we all make purchase decisions based on what matters to us. I fully understand that. I will be curious to learn about your experience once you get it, especially as it pertains to comparing with your Innuos ZENith MK3. I have to say though, you change & swap things around so often, in a very short period of time (by my standards). I would personally have a hard time fully grasping how something sounds for such a short period of time, especially when so many other components in the chain are also being swapped at the same time 🤷‍♂️

How do you plan to connect the Grimm MU1 to your Tambaqui?

@thyname

 

I just looked up the Grimm MU1. Retail price $12,500 without any internal SSD included. Wow! Pricey. A couple of observations:

1) Processor: Intel i3 2-Core. Definitely sufficient for Roon with no DSP, and with not a huge Roon library. But certainly not very powerful for those who use DSP (not me) and with big libraries

At a certain point if someone has a massive library they are probably better served (pun intended) with a powerful server, perhaps in another room. This applies to most one box server/streamers. Then the MU1 could be the endpoint which is where its strengths lie in clocking, 4fs and the optimized aes output.

2) Memory: 4MB RAM. Again, not impressive.

Its upgradeable if it isnt enough.

3) No USB audio (to DAC) output. Hmmmm….

Hmmmm, the Grimm uses the optimized aes and doesnt even attempt to address usb. When you hear the difference, you will understand why.

4) I don’t see any proprietary streaming software/ music management program (like Innuos Sense). Roon OK, I get that, but then you are at the mercy of Roon for everything.

It uses the best of Roon’s capabilities and dispenses with much of what Roon doesn’t do well like dsp, upsampling, etc. thats a noisy process the way Roon does it regardless of the server/streamer.

I am definitely curious about Grimm, given the reports & reviews, but these observations give me pause. A friend of mine ordered one a few days ago, so I should be able to learn more from “real life” experiences in a few weeks.

I set out to buy an Innuos Statement, the dealer I used sells both, and then a funny thing happened on the way to the Forum….(yep, pun intended). Peace all.

@ghasley : thanks. Sorry, I don’t remember, do you have a Grimm MU1?

Yes, it replaced my Innuos Zenith Mk3, which I was quite happy with.

 

ghasley

2,215 posts

03-19-2023 at 01:57pm 

Yes, it replaced my Innuos Zenith Mk3, which I was quite happy with.

Thanks. I am reading this thread from the start now

@thyname the components I’ve been swapping out since January include the Aurender N20, Merason DAC-1, and now the Tambaqui. My MU1 should arrive in a week or a few days later (really this time). It will be connected to the Tambaqui via AES of course.

This rotating of gear is an unusual process for me as well and I’ve never done this before January. I set out shopping for a streamer and my search expanded to trying outboard DAC’s, and I tried this approach to get a better sense of what I’d be living with than a home audition would offer which for me has its stresses. This way I avoid the part where I feel pressed to make my decision in a week or two, with and eager dealer waiting to hear what I thought. I’ve been keeping each piece at least 4 weeks or longer.

My swapping is really an in-depth way of shopping really that goes a step further than home demos…

Still, I take your point as pro reviewers can live with a piece for 6 months before they do a review. It’s certainly possible I may have an evolved view of the Tambaqui in 6 months. Based on my experience I think it’s really likely the Tambaqui will be “the one” that stays for many years. The Grimm, who knows!

Of note I was not happy at all with my Zenith Mk 3 which I bought in 2019.  Last year I added the PhoenixUSB and this was a pretty major uplift.  The Zenith sound really wasn’t recognizable after adding the PhoenixUSB.  Not everyone has this experience with the PhoenixUSB though, as it is DAC dependent.  I will get around to trying my Tambaqui with and without the PhoenixUSB to see why difference it makes with it (I’ve been running the Tambaqui with the PhoenixUSB so far).  As I said the PhoenixNET is such a perfect match for the Tambaqui’s sound; things are looser and less smooth without it. 

My MU1 should arrive in a week or a few days later (really this time). It will be connected to the Tambaqui via AES of course.

The reason I was asking is the Mola Mola Tambaqui has a network bridge built in. Meaning you can “connect via Ethernet, RJ45 cable” so to speak, to your upcoming Grimm MU1 too. It will be easy to compare & contrast one vs. the other.

Of note I was not happy at all with my Zenith Mk 3 which I bought in 2019.  Last year I added the PhoenixUSB and this was a pretty major uplift.  The Zenith sound really wasn’t recognizable after adding the PhoenixUSB.  Not everyone has this experience with the PhoenixUSB though, as it is DAC dependent. 

The Phoenix USB did not do much for me when paired to the Zenith MK3. Sound changed a bit, but I was not sure if for better or worse. As you said, it must depend on the DAC, and ‘or we all hear differently.
 

@ghasley"At a certain point if someone has a massive library they are probably better served (pun intended) with a powerful server, perhaps in another room. This applies to most one box server/streamers. Then the MU1 could be the endpoint which is where its strengths lie in clocking, 4fs and the optimized aes output."

OK hello, this is very interesting to me as I have heard currently the MU1 will not work as an endpoint only, and must run Roon Core.

I currently have a Nucleus + in another room.  I am buying the Grimm for its AES output to my Tambaqui  Do I have a big library?  I don't know, is 3200 albums, between hard drive and Qobuz large?

And I have a second nice system currently fed by my Nucleus+, not to mention two more zones of lesser sound quality.

Can Grimm MU1 handle 4 zones like this?  Can I keep my Nucleus and use Grimm Mu1 as  a Roon endpoint?

Can I have one MU1 run Roon Core and Serve my tambaqui and another MU1 as endpoint only to serve my second system wtih Makua?

Thanks!  My Mu1 should come this week I hope!

Of note, Christiaan at HiFi advice now says the new streamer from Playback Designs is the best he’s heard.  He seemed slightly down on the Grimm with the latest Roon update softening the sound, while he acknowledged this could be a welcome change by some.  In his opinion Roon sounded best at v1.8 and went backwards at 2.0, but has since made some tiny improvements.

@ghasley did you notice the sound change with Roon 2.0?

Speaking of streamer/server options, JCAT XACT S1 server is now available. And thankfully it does not rely on ROON. They have their very own JPLAY app that I’m currently testing. The graphics, layout and responsiveness is pretty impressive. It offers native support for Tidal and Qobuz. And yes, it does have a Radio feature just like ROON and compatible with any streamer / server that supports UPnP protocol.

https://jcat.eu/featured/xact-s1/

https://jplay.app

@lalitk , interesting, let us know your thoughts.  I’ve heard the S1 punches above its price point 

That Hifi Advice review is interesting but doesn’t exactly track real world usage. He’s using a Grimm MU1 as a server only (taking advantage of the nice power supply and custom Roon coding by Grimm) and then uses PB as a pure renderer/streamer. That’s a $25k digital source…not entirely surprised that he prefers the separated components to the integrated solution — so it goes in hifi, more boxes and cables do usually sound better (but at what cost). Is anybody really buying a Grimm just to use it as a pimped out Roon Nucleus? :-)

Good point @metaldetektor.

I ran into someone who sold his MU1 to purchase the new Playback Designs streamer.  He is already concerned he will miss his MU1 and was contemplating contingency options to get one back in case he has seller’s remorse.