Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@ghasley I would not consider this official but my dealer told me the price of the MU1 was going up by $3,000. I was wondering if anyone else had heard this to corroborate what I was told.

It’s funny, in most threads I’ve read on the MU1, there is the eventual comparison of its internals vs others.  I’m surprised it took this long on this thread.  It certainly doesn’t look as sexy as the others inside, that’s for sure! But it is far more technically advanced than its somewhat crude looking internals imply. But all that doesn’t matter anyways, to me it’s just an interesting side-note to the sound. Looking forward to trying mine!

@metaldetektor interesting analysis on DAC pairings with MU1; thanks. Interesting you found the NOS DACs to be ideal, because to me that just logically makes sense as the upsampling is just moved to the MU1. Which raises the question for me at least - is it more advantageous to do upsampling in the network player, as in the MU1, or is it better to do it in the DAC? Or does it matter?

So what I think I’m not too bad at is analyzing exactly what I hear with gear. My initial analysis tends to remain even after living with gear for a very long time. My current assessment of the characteristics of the N20 have not changed one bit since my original assessment.

What has changed, however, is how I feel about those characteristics. This is the area where I struggle, as time changes how I feel.

For the first time in a while, I switched back to my Innuos gear and listened all day while working.  And I loved it. It was like the transparency, dimensionality, and air, and life was injected back into the music. I know it seems fickle and just a few posts back I said I was down on Innuos. Just please do yourself a favour and ignore any statements I make about what I like or dislike as I obviously can’t even trust myself with that. Paying attention to how I describe sound is totally okay though - I believe everything I stated in terms of sonic characteristics is totally still valid!

One note I should make - going back to Innuos I tried leaving my speakers at their toed in position that was needed for the Aurender N20 to have a solid image. It’s possible I got carried away with the positioning with Innuos before, and had the speakers toed out too much to boost the image width and crispness. But now, it sounds pretty awesome. Am also appreciating the BIG bass with more clarity and dimensionality. I also have left my DAC filter setting on “Fast” instead of the “Slow” default setting.

I think this is an example of, one server solution is not better than the other; they are simply different. I am glad to have experienced the N20 as before that, I really didn’t know what my Innuos setup added to my system. Now I know! Once I get a different DAC in house I will give the N20 another shot. I’m in talks with a dealer that may be able to set me up with a demo of the Merason DAC1, recommend by @ghasley and seemingly highly recommended by almost everyone who has heard it. The Mk1 version costs 40% less than my Gryphon DAC module, but as we know high cost doesn’t mean better sound. Still waiting patiently for the MU1 to arrive. Wondering if that will be better, or just different!

I will aspire to be a better audiophile. By honing my ability to detect what is truly “better” to my ears, as opposed to merely “different”. A good lesson.

@nyev Thanks for sharing. At the end of the day, we have to stick with what sounds best to our ears. I recently had a similar epiphany. I was quite happy with the Innuos Zenith MK3. The addition of SR purple fuse and Eno filter really took the performance to the next level. By sheer luck, I stumbled upon a rather unknown streamer, and to my surprise it really checked all the boxes for me. I ended up selling my Zenith and bought the Aavik S-280 streamer after auditioning it in my home for two weeks. It was a tough decision since the Aavik doesn't do DSD and I have a fairly decent-sized collection of DSD downloads. In the end, the Aavik just spoke to me in a way that no other streamer has. It has similar levels of clarity, air, and transparency as the Zenith, but to my ears it brings that extra bit of heft and organic quality that was sometimes missing in the Zenith. The streamer just added that special sauce that I never knew was missing. I'm glad I took the road less travelled and found something I really love.

I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions of MU1. 

Thanks @arafiq, very interesting.  I don’t know about the Zeno filter but have you every tried the Zenith with the PhoenixUSB?  It’s really an entirely different experience than the Zenith on its own.  Depending on the DAC used of course.

I should mention I agree that the Innuos gear, with or without the PhoenixUSB, is not a sound I would consider to be organic leaning.  But, it’s certainly not analytical or dry either.   Again, the DAC used can obviously change all of this; my comparison and reference point is a different server (the N20) connected to the same DAC (Gryphon Diablo module).

I was actually all set to purchase the PhoenixUSB but another audiogon member advised me to get the SR Purple fuse instead. He had tried the PhoenixUSB and didn't think it added much. So he sold it and bought the Purple fuse instead. Having said that, these things are so system dependent. It might have worked wonders in my system but I was quite happy with the Zenith + SR Purple fuse + Network Acoustics Eno filter trio, so never thought of buying the Phoenix.

BTW, I still maintain that the DAC module in your Gryphon is top class. I think you will have to get something at least $10K or more to better it. Just my opinion based on hearing the Gryphon Diablo 300 a couple of years ago.

@arafiq , interesting. Still planning to try the purple fuse - will order this week.

Yes I’ve heard that for some the PhoenixUSB doesn’t add much. The fact that the PhoenixUSB does actually help I suppose implies that the Diablo DAC module is lesser than the DACs where the PhoenixUSB makes no difference. Not sure if this is the right way to think about it, but I’ve seen that argument in forums before. And I’ve seen some people claim it also helps when paired with some of the Uber-DACs.

I would really love it if the Grimm does everything and just a bit more, in one box, with my Diablo DAC module. If it did, I’d be tempted to stop there. But because of this thread, I’ve promised myself just to try a stand-alone DAC. I know know a lot more about my Innuos setup thanks to the N20. Likewise, trying against another DAC would offer insight into my Diablo 300 DAC module.

Back to the Grimm, my fear (too strong of a word) is that the AES interface won’t perform well with my Diablo DAC module. Or at least not as well as it should. The reason being, that there was really zero difference between the Aurender N20’s USB and AES interfaces when they should really have sounded different. Something seems funny there, and leads me to wonder if it’s the Diablo DAC’s AES interface that is limiting things.

It's been quite painful reading your almost daily musings, but like a blind squirrel, I guess you'll eventually find a nut.

There are many things that are non-negotiable if you want the best SQ and those things include:

Use SR Purple fuses or better in all your gear.

Disable the +ve wire in your USB cable. I know you don't want to get it sticky..lol

You are running a three legged horse if you don't get a Masterclock for the N20. I know you only want one box...tough

Plug your 300W amp into the wall.

Use a Hurricane to feed the Torus and a Dragon to feed the N20 / Innous

Glad to see you're getting a separate DAC

Please don't reply just try these things and you will see they all work.

@lordmelton thanks for the tips! :)

“You are running a three legged horse if you don't get a Masterclock for the N20. 

I couldn’t agree more with @lordmelton. And this just doesn’t apply to N20, any component with external clock input should be explored to truly understand and experience that ‘next level’ realm. Listening to N20 with an external clock was nothing short of a revelation, so much so that I’m now gearing up for a head to head audition of W20SE vs N30SA. 

@lalitk ​​​​@lordmelton 

Could you please detail the Masterclocks used for the N20, and how you set them up in your system?

I’m honestly confused about Master clock vs word clock, 10 MHz vs 44.1x/48x, SPDIF Sync, Sine wave vs Square wave, etc. 

Does the DAC also need to be connected to the same clock to hear the revelation?

Thanks in advance!

@rockrider A N20 needs a 75 Ohm Masterclock. Word Clocks are vastly inferior because you have to change the frequency settings everytime you change from 44.1/192 Khz etc. Masterclock is plug and play.

Sine wave is best, connecting simultaneously to a DAC will have little effect, if any.

However connecting the clock to ethernet devices and reclockers etc., should give good results. The most important issue is enabling masterclock control of the N20's internal clock, which will benefit tremendously from more accurate timing.

A quality LPS is essential together with a real clock cable, not a 75 Ohm SPDIF cable. Clock cable can cost around $2k per meter, one meter or less is best.

You can buy an After Dark or Cybershaft clock for $1k or more.

@lalitk uses a much more sophisticated (and expensive) setup, but what I've explained here will give excellent results.

@lordmelton 

Thank you!

Does the master clock affect the usb output? I would not think so…

Steve

@rockrider

Sorry for late reply. I am using Merging Technologies +clock which not only designed to synchronize RAVENNA network (exclusive to my Network Attached DAC), it also provides automatic sample rate switching, two 10MHz synchronous outputs, one of those 10MHz being used for N20 and a set of four Word Clock outputs. Even if your DAC does not have a clock input, synchronizing Aurender transport like N20 with an external clock further yielded a more coherent presentation.

My ‘Digital’ system is listed under my username for you to checkout my system setup. You can read further on this amazing and versatile clock here,

@lalitk 

Thanks for your response!

@sc2 

In my research on this subject, I’ve found the Aurender manual for their MC20 Clock to be very informative.
 

Section 7.2 contains the statement:

”In order for MC20 to have maximum efficacy, use a SPDIF or AES/EBU connection between your Aurender and DAC instead of USB. Due to the nature of asynchronous USB, where the DAC's clock (or an external clock that is synced with the DAC) controls the data flow, clock input signal on any Aurender source has no impact on the signal path of USB audio connections.”

But all the reading can’t take the place of direct experience, so I greatly appreciate the hands on experiences of everyone here.

Just doing rough math, it feels like you could spend about $10k on a master clock setup, if you consider adding a decent clock cable and a premium power cable.

Given there are so many paths to reach our audiophile objectives, I’ve often mused (there I go with my musings @lordmelton ! Sorry for the pain… ) on each upgrade, in terms of the degree of sonic improvement per dollar spent. Like when I tested Valhalla 2 USB cables once, they sounded a fair bit better. But, for the amount of money, I realized I could get way more benefit putting that money elsewhere.

So, my question is, would $10k for a semi-premium master clock setup take you further than, say, putting that cash into a $20k DAC instead of a $10k DAC, or, a Statement Next-Gen or even a Taiko? Probably an impossible question to answer, but I’m wondering how the whole Masterclock concept stacks up in terms of sonic benefit per dollar spent, at least at a general level, vs putting that money elsewhere.

I find it’s often a worthwhile question to ask when upgrading:  For a set amount of cash, what upgrade would result in the biggest benefit?

@sc2 

Does the master clock affect the usb output? I would not think so…

Well according to Aurender it doesn't, but in practice it does, I only use USB output.

Aurender also specifies the AES/SPDIF outputs are best, but USB has always been better for me with several DACs..........go figure.

@rockrider I have never heard the Aurender MC20 but at around $25/30k I cannot see the value.

A masterclock is based around a tiny piece of rubidium no bigger than a grain of rice.

There are also cesium and satellite synchronized masterclocks but I don't see any value in the MC20.

@nyev A masterclock setup can be bought for $5-6k.

My DAC, Musetec 005, only cost $3k and I’m extremely happy and content with it, I’ve compared it with many much more expensive DACs.

@lalitk ’s system is SOTA using the Ravenna network and I think that’s probably something we all should eventually aim at.

My system sounds great because I have a world class pre-amp, the Viola Sonata and Dragon power cables among others.

@lordmelton thank you for that. Were you using their clock too?
https://www.mutec-net.com/product_ref_10.php#description

if this was connected to their dac at the same time, then I could see the performance jump. There is a list on the link above which say it’s not applicable to the N20, not doubting you, just find it intriguing…

Steve

@sc2 My DAC is Musetec not Mutec, although I'm very familiar with Mutec products.

Yes, I know what Aurender says but it's not accurate as far as my experience has shown.

@nyev hasn't been able to show any difference between AES and USB from the N20 even with a more expensive AES cable.

So take what Aurender says with a pinch of salt or better still audition yourself.

@nyev just a reminder to stay focused on your goals and your plan.

@ghasley , thanks and yes I am sticking to my guns. I am not going to go the masterclock route, even though I don’t doubt the benefits that @lordmelton ​​​​and @lalitk report. I am merely curious about the approach and relative value.

Also, I decided to purchase one of the mint condition lightly used Merason DAC-1’s for a good price. Thanks for the suggestion. Considering the $ it’s no big deal if it doesn’t work out. Especially when you consider the amount I’m spending on severs not knowing if they will work out lol! I wanted to try this DAC in particular because it seemed to be one of the best bang for the buck options, and I couldn’t find an option in Canada where I could demo one. The only downside of the DAC-1 that I can see is it doesn’t do MQA or DSD. Not really concerned with that however as I don’t have DSD files, and haven’t really paid attention to MQA before. Although I hear it is supposed to be better.

I am still hoping I will end up selling the DAC1 and succeeding in my original goal of only one box feeding my Diablo 300 DAC module, but I’m really interested in seeing how the DAC 1 sounds. If the “worst case scenario” happens and the DAC 1 sounds better than my current DAC, the seller told me Merason told him he could upgrade the unit to the MK2 version for a very reasonable price (considering the MK2 costs 50% more than the MK1). The seller ended up instead getting a very expensive EMM DAC.

No clue at the moment what to use for balanced XLR interconnects.

Back to the masterclock topic for a moment, I did notice that the original seller of my N20 just very recently listed a After Dark masterclock that is a two box option, for what seems to be a reasonable price. What a weird model naming convention - Double Emperor or something. Not sure if this is compatible with the N20. Again, not going this route! I’m just curious.

@sc2, @rockrider

I have not tested N20’s USB or SPDIF outputs when N20 is being slaved to external clock. Since my DAC is a Network Attached DAC, the recommended configuration by the manufacturer is through RAVENNA network. In this configuration, I did hear substantial improvement when N20 slaved to my Merging +clock. So contrary to what Aurender manual says, a direct user experience always carries more weight in my opinion. As I said earlier, in my system adding a master clock was quite a revelation thus prompting me to bring in N30SA / W20SE for audition. For many out there, N20 should suffice. For me, I want to see how far I can push digital by upgrading the streamer and even a better clock down the road (yes, merging makes clocks at 3 performance tiers).

@nyev

I hope you view this conversation as another tool to further enhance the performance of your N20. Having said that, at this point in your journey where you’re still figuring out DAC’s, streamers; you needn’t worry about adding the Master Clock or additional cost associated with it. To answer your earlier question about “in terms of the degree of sonic improvement per dollar spent”, IME a better DAC, Streamer or even Master Clock yields much higher returns on your investment over a fancy Valhalla 2 USB cable. Of course, your rest of the system should be appropriately balanced to take advantage of ultra high performance of upstream components. Cheers!

@lalitk , 100%, I am very interested in all of the avenues we could choose to take with the products that I am choosing to spend some time to experience, even if I’m not planning to charge ahead and follow these paths. You and others on this thread obviously have a lot of knowledge and experience, not only on gear but the approach.

For me my time with the N20 has taught me more about me I think, than about the N20 itself. It taught me where my sonic priorities are, even when other presentations can be very alluring. I know I might “get there” following the path you have charted, but, I want to see which server takes me the furthest without going those extra steps. And to see what the external DAC can do. Not to mention that I prefer a simpler system, lol…

It was @ghasley who convinced me to try a good standalone DAC, as of course, I care about the sound of my system. But, I’m hoping it’s nothing but a learning experience and I get to sell my Merason after my time with it. I will however accept that my digital chain needs to include three boxes, as it is today (with my network switch, server and reclocker as it stands today), if the Merason wins.

I can even see a possible end to this particular journey being that I circle back to Innuos in the end - if I do I will go with the Statement. The difference with my N20 and my current Innuos setup has me wondering if there is some magic happening with my Diablo DAC module and the PhoenixUSB reclocker (which the Statement includes). Hoping when it arrives the MU1 will either confirm this, or it will be the one I prefer, but either way ideally without the Merason!

That said, I want to give the Merason the best chance I can. What are people using for XLR interconnects at this level?

@nyev

Others may differ but I would suggest using reasonable XLR interconnects but to not go crazy. If you read up on the XLR standard, the standard was developed to minimize cable differences. I’ve had alot of good ones...did I hear differences between Mogami and Blue Jeans? No. Did I hear differences between Kimber and Transparent Ultra? Well....maybe? In other words, there may be some differences but certainly not enough (IMO) to merit a XLR interconnect cable quest at this stage of the game. If you have a pair of XLR interconnects, try those first.

RE: the Merason Dac1. I hope you enjoy it. Its a fine dac that punches well above its weight class. With that said, at its new retail price, it is a fair value for the money but no longer the "deal" that it was previously. This exercise will tell you where your Gryphon dac falls in a two dac shootout. What would be awesome, of course, would be if your Gryphon is preferable to the Merason. That would keep your goal of a two box, high performance setup in play.

@adasdad picking up on this response here from you

To me it just doesn’t make sense to put a $10K streamer in front of a $4,500 DAC.

I put the Grimm in front of a comparatively low cost Metrum Octave v2 DAC and even this lowly DAC sounded far better with the Grimm at the helm.

Having such a solid front end like the Grimm helps you find the best from any DAC you may have in your collection - and in fact will also help you choose and audition any new potential DACs you may want to buy, with the Grimm allowing you to hear them at their very best.

So starting with the Grimm and simply using an Octave DAC (as an example) until you can afford better makes for good foundations in choosing the right DAC further down the line. When you audition these DACs you can be sure you have no upstream bottleneck putting a throttle on the full potential of your new converter.

“When you audition these DACs you can be sure you have no upstream bottleneck putting a throttle on the full potential of your new converter.”

+1, @chopandchange

Exactly! You can always explore better converter at later date. That’s one thing I always enjoyed and appreciated about Aurender streamers. 

@ghasley , I believe you are referring to the new MK2 version of the Merason DAC 1, which is 50% higher than before? Supposedly it’s been totally redesigned, and there are no reviews or firsthand accounts of the MK2, so I guess we can’t say quite yet whether the new version still punches above its weight at the higher price.

In my case, I purchased my mint MK1 version at a very reasonable price, and have the option to upgrade to the MK2 version at a very reasonable cost.

@chopandchange , your rationale makes sense to me. I too have found that earlier components in the digital chain are not limited by later, lesser components in the chain. As I mentioned before, Innuos demoed their new flagship $28k (CAD) Statement Next Gen paired with the Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated with its DAC module that I have, with the DAC module costing $10k (CAD). Although my DAC module cost 40% less when I bought it in 2019!

The MU1 costs about 35% more than the list price of my Gryphon DAC, so it’s not wildly out of whack from that perspective.  Although I did hear that the MU1 price is going up imminently.

@chopandchange 

I put the Grimm in front of a comparatively low cost Metrum Octave v2 DAC and even this lowly DAC sounded far better with the Grimm at the helm.

Having such a solid front end like the Grimm helps you find the best from any DAC you may have in your collection - and in fact will also help you choose and audition any new potential DACs you may want to buy, with the Grimm allowing you to hear them at their very best.

So starting with the Grimm and simply using an Octave DAC (as an example) until you can afford better makes for good foundations in choosing the right DAC further down the line. When you audition these DACs you can be sure you have no upstream bottleneck putting a throttle on the full potential of your new converter.

 Agreed!  Excellent logic and explanation. It is not simply "All about the DAC".

The quality and contribution of the digital source/signal is at minimum, as important and possibly more. Grimm MU1 -Metrum Octave is an excellent example.

Charles

A couple of updates.

I sold my N20! I know. Too early as I hadn’t yet tried it with the Merason DAC1. Blind squirrel, three legged horse and all that…. But:

1. The N20 already taught me a lot as I said above. And the sound ultimately is not for me - I know… at least with my current DAC and in its three-legged horse masterclockless configuration.
2. A buyer who is a fan of Aurender approached me. And I know how long it can take to sell high value items.
3. I was able to get back my original expenditure, minus shipping, fees, etc.

Premature, I know, but an opportunity arose and I had to make a call.

Onwards. The MU1 and Merason DAC1 are inbound.

I am still without any AES cable or interconnects, and I need to return my overdue demo Audioquest Diamond AES! A dealer has valiantly tried and failed to become a Jorma dealer, to source a Jorma AES cable for me.

With that path a dead end, primary choices are to go with either Sablon or Shunyata AES and balanced XLR cables. Any suggestions which? I feel Sablon to be highly intriguing. But I also feel resale may be better with Shunyata. I feel either would be great. I want to go with Sablon but I feel a Shunyata might be wiser. After all, if I end up sticking with Innuos after all this, I’ll be selling both cables! Why not stick with the Audioquest Diamond AES that I’ve been demoing? Not sure. If I’m honest, maybe because I see a lot more buzz around a Shunyata and Sablon AES cables. Lots of people go on about the AQ Diamond USB but not really about the AQ AES or XLR interconnects.

@nyev I presently have a Shunyata Sigma v2 AES/EBU cable. I also have in house a Network Acoustics Muon AES/EBU cable to compare. I can’t reliably tell them apart in A to B and B to A testing. What does that mean for your application? Maybe nothing, maybe something…

Regarding interconnects, I have in the past settled in with Cardas or Transparent for XLR interconnects when I was using Audio Research ref gear. I am also fond of Audience interconnects and speaker cable although, since my setup today is single ended, I use a mix of Audience AU24 SX, Auditorium 23 and Audio Note. What does this mean for your application? Maybe nothing, maybe something.

@nyev I think in this instance you may be worrying about a problem that isnt a problem. Pick up some well made XLR interconnects and call it a day. There isn’t a great deal of sound difference between XLR interconnects…that’s a compelling reason to go XLR whenever possible.  I did hear a marked difference when I bought the Shunyata AES XLR digital cable to replace my previous one. The fact that the Network Acoustics AES XLR cable is very similar also speaks volumes given the price differential.

If you get a chance try the Siltech classic legend cables. they use a silver gold alloy conductor. you get the best of silver and the best of copper sonics without the downsides of each is the easiest way to explain the sound. i replaced a few shunyata, wireworld and nordost cables in my main system and couldn’t be happier. and i feel understanding somewhat your sonic preferences this would be a good fit for you. also very interested in hearing your impressions of the innuos statement if you happen to go that route! right now i’m looking at the statement vs n20/n30 vs something like the pulsar or new Lumin U2.

@richh84 , if the MU1 is better than my Innuos Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB, with or without the outboard Merason DAC, I won’t likely bother with the Statement. The logic being that most who have experienced my Innuos gear and the Statement say that the Zenith and reclocker gets you 90% of the way towards the Statement (non Next Gen version). If however my current Innuos gear is equal or better than the MU1 in my system, then I 100% plan to trial the Statement. As I mentioned earlier Innuos kindly offered to send a demo to my local dealer who is not even an Innuos dealer.

I do think I might head the Shunyata route. Only because I’ve trialed their power cords before (Omega and Sigma NR v2) and was impressed, along with their level of customer service. Even if I didn’t end up buying last time. Plus, I’ve read so many accounts over the years of people saying how Shunyata interconnects sound, in general (which is consistent with how I felt their Omega power cord sounds), that I don’t think I’ll be overly surprised. But thanks for sharing your experience with Siltech. I do think I know what you mean about the benefits of silver/copper without the negatives however. Know people feel silver is harsh/fatiguing/revealing/overly lean, but I’ve not actually found any of that to be the case in my system with my components. Except for the revealing part, which I like. But my system seems to do okay even with poor, harsher recordings. Probably because my current DAC is known to be warm leaning. And possibly my amp too although there is some debate whether it’s the Diablo amp or DAC that provides the warmer mids. The Merason DAC1 is also reported to be revealing with a softer smoother midrange so that should be a really interesting comparison when it arrives.

So I’ve been enjoying Bob Dylan’s Time Out of Mind Bootleg Series. MQA version. Not my typical music but the seller of my Merason DAC1 mentioned how much he was liking it and I have to say I’m really enjoying it too.

I was playing the MQA version of Bob’s sessions, and realized that I had years ago read up on all the controversy, went “huh” and promptly ejected it from my mind. So I read up on it again. Found out my current Diablo 300 DAC doesn’t support it. Then I wondered, does my Innuos gear deal with MQA? Went to check settings in Sense, and nope. Nothing about MQA, only DSD stuff. But wait! There’s a new version of Innuos software with press releases saying they now deal with MQA and is “core certified”. So I promptly updated my Innuos software to 2.3.1. And found by default Sense now does “the first unfold” for MQA. Naturally, I tried disabling it and…. I found things were definitely better with it enabled. Interesting!

Now, the Merason DAC1 doesn’t support MQA. And the MU1 seems like by design it encourages you not to worry about MQA beyond the first unfold by Roon. As it’s upsampling board can’t be used if you are passing the MQA stream to an MQA enabled DAC. I like this approach. Makes an argument that having an MQA-enabled DAC is really pointless with a MU1, because a big part of the reason you buy the MU1 is for the 4X upsampling. And you get that benefit even on non-MQA material.

That said I have to say the MQA unfold by Sense, feeding my non-MQA DAC module, sounds pretty good…. Really looking forward to seeing what the MU1’s upsampling can do in comparison.  Not really an apples to apples thing I know.  Just an interesting side note really with the latest Innuos update.

@ghasley you will roll your eyes I’m sure but I am going ahead with Shunyata Omega for the AES and Sigma V2 for the balanced analog interconnects. Made possible by my recent sale of the N20. Fought the FOMO, and lost….

I do recall how much I liked the Shunyata Omega PC, despite the fact that I ultimately picked the AQ Dragon over it.

The MU1 and the DAC 1 will have no excuses to not perform their best…

@ghasley , just watched a highly technical review of the Merason DAC 1 and the reviewer states, twice, that the AES inputs are limited to 96k and only the USB goes to 192k. Is that true? If so, does this pose a limitation for the MU1’s up sampled AES output?

DAC 1 Review, see 6:18 and also mentioned earlier.

@nyev The Merason is 24/96 at the AES input. When I owned it I had an Innuos Zenith and fed it via USB. Since I never enabled Roon to upsample so I only fed it native resolutions. Regarding how it sounds with the Grimm MU1 at 2fs only, it will still sound good.

The Merason was suggested as a very solid, well executed, beautiful sounding dac for very reasonable money. It will give you a good idea of where on the performance bar your Gryphon dac board measures up. I suspect the MU1 will elevate the performance of your Gryphon dac via aes that you have yet to experience and the Merason dac will provide a very nice data point for comparison. IIRC the Merason runs dual mono with two dacs with true balanced outputs. Since the interconnects you’ve chosen exceed the $ value of the Merason, I also suspect that $3.5k-ish USD preowned invested in the Merason dac and the $5k-ish USD retail Shunyata interconnects will prove to be a less attractive value proposition than your Gryphon dac. (Subtle, tongue in cheek poke at you there haha) But this exercise should tell you alot. You can set the Grimm up as your roon core, attach the wonderful Shunyata Omega (v1 or v2?) AES/EBU cable to your Gryphon dac and you will hear all your Gryphon dac is capable of. You could also configure your Innuos as an endpoint feeding your phoenix and then via usb to your Gryphon dac and switch between the two streams conveniently.

Did I roll my eyes???? Yeah, I have to be honest I did a little bit LOL.

At the end of the day, try not to get too hung up on bit rates and focus on the sound. I predict that your opinion of your Gryphon dac will spike once you’ve heard it with the Grimm once its well run in. There are many roads to happiness with this exercise. Are there even higher performing solutions? Of course…for me, my system and my ears I found the Grimm to be first class experience for frequent flyer miles money. Let me clearly state though and you already know my feelings…dropping in $10kish USD of cables on the two sides of the Merason leaves me with heartburn although its your party, you get to design the menu.

Ive heard from a couple reputable sources that the Grimm mu1 and mola mola tambaqui is a pretty magical combo. don’t underestimate the benefits of a world class dac with a world class digital source. i just got my lampizator horizon its a total game changer i had no idea the sound im hearing was even possible with my setup.

Thanks @ghasley , all makes sense with the DAC1.  At 2X OS I can compare the DAC 1 and the Gryphon DAC and see who wins.  That will still be a valid test of how a very well regarded outboard DAC compares.  The used DAC 1 cost me relatively little and I can always sell it get a different DAC if it happens to win the test.  Maybe the Tambaqui, who knows. 

If my Gryphon DAC survives and I’m left with that and the MU1, I will have an uber AES interconnect between them, the Omega.  As far as I can tell my Gryphon’s AES input will go to 192k.

If the DAC 1 wins, I have a unnecessarily premium interconnect.

@nyev 

Frankly speaking, I hope your jaw drops when you hear your Gryphon dac. It would be really cool if there is a unique synergy between a server/streamer and your Diablo/Diablo dac. That was your original goal and to most of us, it is irrelevant whether it is an Aurender, Innuos, Taiko, Antipodes, Grimm, etc, etc. Certainly there are fan boys of some gear and while I'm quite happy with my Grimm, anyone who has experienced a Taiko knows there is more there, there.

Everything comes at a cost and regardless of what we each can/can't/should/shouldn't spend, we each punch out where it makes sense for us. For instance, I have have a dedicated room on the lower level of our home. When the heater/air conditioner kicks on I can hear the air from the vents. If I am seriously listening, I adjust the thermostat so it wont come on but usually, I just could care less. I set up the system to sound great in a reasonably quiet room but houses typically have some occasional noise. Every time I think of going more elaborate with my setup, I ask myself how crazy will I be the next time the HVAC kicks on and then I pump the brakes.

I'm certain an Audio Note Ongaku sounds better than my amp...its just not relevant to my circumstance or enjoyment. Some Audiogoners may even squeal a bit and protest when you pick a piece of gear OVER the piece of gear they have. Who cares? While I hope the Grimm is a good fit for you, only you can decide what you like. As I've said earlier in the thread, none of the gear you are trying will sound broken...some just check your boxes, with your gear, in your room all run through the filter of your preferences. I've had good friends love something that I didn't and vice versa....horses for courses they say. I preferred Grimm in direct comparison to Aurender and Innuos. Others prefer the opposite....but something I have yet to see in the forums is "I thought the Taiko sounded broken, flat, horrible".

Regarding cables, If the difference made by inserting $5k interconnects into your system is worth it to you, then its worth it. Don't let anyone tell you any different. Its ok to bring a gun to a knife fight.

@ghasley totally agreed.  I’m a fanboy of certain gear (my Diablo) but I’m also aware there are perfectly good reasons to go with a different amp that is equally good.  I’m also open to hearing other opinions and critiques of my prized amp.  I’m well aware of a couple shortcomings it has, but those shortcomings don’t bother me in the slightest.  I’m also aware that a Gryphon Essence setup would likely blow my Diablo out of the water, albeit with a different tonal presentation. And at a much higher cost, despite what people say about Essence being a “value” (which I don’t doubt).

Back to the DAC 1, I know Merason takes a “focus on the basics and nothing else” approach, but the AES limitation to 96k seems to be the only real limitation (arguably of course if you care about MQA and DSD support) of merit in modern times.  As such, I wonder if the DAC 1 MK 2 might support a higher bandwidth on its AES input.  I still have the option to upgrade to the MK2 for a very low cost.  @ghasley , do you happen to know?  I’ve sent a note to Merason to ask.

@nyev 

It states AES input at 24/96 on the website. I moved on some time ago and my current dac (Totaldac) is NOS 24/192 on that input, which aligns perfectly with the max of the Grimm. I was all in on DSD, never on MQA. A respected mastering engineer told me off the record (LOL) that he would never record in DSD unless it was "live". He explained its very cumbersome to edit in DSD. True or not, who knows. Convert final mix analog masters to DSD, he's all in...but if recording  digitally 24/192 is quite good.

Informative thread, I just read all 9 pages and I’m interested what nyev settles on. I have a W20SE and a MU1 in 2 different systems and I’ve never compared them in the same system. Currently I have the W20SE connected to a Holo May KTE as such:

Router > DX Engineering ethernet RFI filter > Sonore OMD with Uptone LPS 1.2 > Etherregen with AfterDark OCXO clock each powered by a Paul Hynes LPS > Aurender W20SE > Revelation Audio SPDIF coax with BNC connectors > Holo May KTE.

My MU1 is connected via a Revelation Audio Labs cyro silver AES cable to my Bricasti M1SE with the latest DAC board installed in November 2022. I have a Innous PhoenixNET connected in front of the MU1.

I enjoy the sound of both of my systems and the streaming SQ is outstanding. I have to say that I like Roon better than Aurender’s Conductor app for a user interface. I’ve had my W20SE for about 1-1/2 years and the MU1 for about 5 months.

Wow @smatsui if I had two systems like that I’d want to mix and match to compare different configurations!  Would be interested in the Aurender/Grimm face off.  Try both in one system and both in the other….

And same for the Bricasti and Holo May KTE!

@ghasley , a big correction on the DAC1. Merason got back to me and said this: