I've recently become interested in the Grimm MU1. While reviews of top end players from Innuos, Aurender and Antipodes and others are typically all very positive, the tone of the many pro reviews of the Grimm MU1 go far, far beyond, with some reviews resorting to using superlatives and gushing of positive system transformation and not being able to stop listening to material, etc.. HiFi Advice and Steve Huff (actually calls it "magic") have such reviews.
Given the delay in availability of the Innuos Pulsar which I'm told will be better than my current Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB reclocker, I am interested in replacing my streaming setup with a one-box solution that includes a high-precision clock. The new streamer will continue to feed my Gryphon Diablo 300's DAC module, which I have no interest in replacing.
I'm actually a fan of Innuos, after they improved the sound of my Zenith with firmware updates and after I added their PhoenixUSB reclocker. I appreciate this commitment to improving sound quality which is why I was so interested in the Pulsar.
The trigger for considering an upgrade is not for improved sound, but rather, to solve some issues I have with too many Audioquest power cords coiled and clumped together. I will get to lose one of them and one of my USB cords with a one-box streamer. I've noticed my sound is very sensitive to positioning of my AC cords and find I often need to re-adjust the PC feeding my amp to get proper sounding vocals at center stage. One of my subs also seems to be picking up AC noise when the crossover is set above 60Hz. The second trigger is simply system simplification, removing one box. All that said I don't really have any complaints regarding sound, and the PhoenixUSB reclocker truly did improve the sound of my Zenith.
While the Grimm MU1 has it's 4X upsampling up it's sleeve with reviewers absolutely glowing over this feature and it's extreme ability to separate tones to the left, right, front, and back far better than the rest, I don't see that Grimm has gone to any lengths with regard to power supply management in the way other brands do including Innuos. The MU1's ultra-simplistic interior doesn't bug me, but the lack of transformers and power management makes me wonder....
Are there any updates from folks who have directly compared the MU1 vs similarly classed streamers from the competition? Did you find it to be as revelatory as the pro reviewers found it? And, how does it compare to other streamers with it's 4X upsampling disabled? Does it sound like it suffers from it's lack of power management? I do see that the clock should be very good...
@ghasleyI have to thank you for convincing me to try an outboard DAC and suggesting the Merason DAC1.
My DAC1 arrived a bit early. I’ve quicky unpacked it and connected it using the very basic cables I have on hand. The unit is really in mint condition. With my Innuos gear, I can confirm the sound is very enjoyable and natural. The reviews I think are largely accurate. It is a hair less resolving than my amp’s DAC module, but it more relaxed, easy going, and less “wound up”. In comparison my amp’s DAC module has a tension to it that makes it less relaxing. Vocals and all sounds are bigger and less pinpointed/edgy than with my Gryphon DAC module. Vocals are also properly presented boldly and up front instead of being set too far back in the mix and made to be smaller when using my Gryphon DAC. Another quality I was unsure whether my Innuos gear or my Gryphon DAC was responsible for, until now. Now I know! I think my Gryphon DAC has a touch more of a full and bigger bass sound. I’m also noticing the slight smoothness of sound that many of the reviews mention. The highs are not rolled off at all, rather, upper mids are just easier going. Snare drums hit with clarity and crispness but they don’t jump out like a gunshot anymore when the volume is cranked. All of this makes for a very easygoing but engaging listen without resorting to a closed in sound.
The DAC1 is cold still from being delivered - it’s 41F outside now. Between that the basic Audioquest RCA interconnects (bought for $500 25 years ago), I think it’s likely I’ll get some better transparency once it warms up and once my fancy Shunyata cables arrive. And, I can always upgrade to the Mk2.
Just my very early and preliminary impressions. An interesting thing is, like when I had the Aurender N20, the DAC1 seems to address my nits with the Innuos setup. Or more accurately would be to say my nits with my Gryphon DAC module now that I know. The question is, whether I could get the degree of bass and transparency to be happy with it. Between warmup, replacing my basic RCA cables with the new balanced cables, and a possible upgrade to the MK2 version, I can see myself getting there potentially. Not to mention the introduction of the MU1 in a few weeks. With the Shunyata Omega AES. Fun times….
Update: by the end of this long post I am already hearing greater transparency one one song I had first played about an hour ago.
Update2: Just realized the MU1 had better beat my Innuos gear. Otherwise I’m at +1 boxes with an outboard DAC, regardless of whether I were to stick with my current Innuos gear or go with the Statement! Pulsar is an option I suppose but I do now value having a server…
I know it is far too early to be listening this critically. But you know how it goes, new toy and all…
I went back to the Gryphon Diablo DAC module for a bit. I realized that what I perceived to be more bass MAY be actually due to the Gryphon DAC being warmer leaning, with a more bottom-up presentation. I believe the Merason may be more neutral leaning, aside from the gentleness in the upper mids. I think it may have been in the Pursuit of the Perfect System review where the guy mentioned he thought the Diablo 300 was actually quite neutral and that the warmth people attribute to it is actually coming from the DAC and not the amp. I am thinking I might be agreeing with this now!
The Gryphon DAC is still better with detail resolution and spatial presentation, but as I mentioned, everything is just smaller, narrower and more delicate. Something I incorrectly attributed to Innuos above in this thread. My sincerest apologies Innuos! Things are more confident, coherent and “in the room” with the Merason. I know it may sound like I was saying about the Aurender N20. But the difference is with the Merason the sound is far more is wide open and I’m not missing any top end frequencies at all, as I was when the N20 was in my system.
Greetings. I wouldn’t listen too critically to the Merason until you get proper interconnects. Output from the balanced Merason outputs doubles up to 3v. The 1.5v output from the rca outputs combined with your “classic” Audioquest interconnects is a “thing”.
Again, be patient, take good notes. The Merason Dac1 is very good and after its been left on 24/7 it will improve…but it isn’t end game…this is really more of an experiment for you of what a solid performing, stand alone dac can bring to the table vs your inboard Gryphon dac. From its balanced outputs the sound will change considerably. Good luck.
Thanks @ghasley. I know the Merason isn’t end game, especially considering how comparatively inexpensive it is. Regardless of how it sounds now, I’m learning things about my Gryphon DAC module. People have said it’s got a little warmth but I now think that is a big understatement. The entire bottom end and mid bass has quite a lot of warmth, and it’s very detailed at the same time. I think that boosted lower frequencies is the reason I’ve felt the mids and vocals are recessed and overly delicate and small. I think it’s causing the midrange tension I spoke of. This is what happens when you boost lower frequency tone controls, the mids can become a bit pinched off. So what I am hearing with the Merason is I think mostly my ears adjusting to a more neutral presentation, where the midrange is more prominent and open. Have to say I like the coloration of then Gryphon DAC though - it is a pleasing tonal balance. But I think there are trade offs with the more constrained mids. It will be interesting to see if I can adjust and be comfortable with the more neutral presentation in the end. I hope so, and I think it’s possible.
@arafiq, that fact has not been lost on me either, lol!
Definitely in the honeymoon phase for sure….
The sound now is not limited in the high frequencies like I found with the Aurender however. I think the “more confident” and open midrange is nothing to do with performance of the Merason, beyond the fact that it is more neutral than my Gryphon DAC.
I am NOT going to say I love the Merason until I’ve lived with it for some time and go back later to the Gryphon DAC. I suspect that whether I end up liking it or not is going to be dependent on two things: whether I am too attached to the coloration of the Gryphon DAC, and whether the Merason has enough detail for me.
Just did a quick check in. Nothing much changed from last night. Maybe a bit more punchlines and rhythm in the bass but not sure.
The sound with the DAC1 on my basic RCA cables (big caveat) is not similar to the sound when the N20 was in my system, even if it sounds that way. Not at all. The N20 had an incredible density and flashiness that is not at all how the DAC 1 sounds (yes I realize it’s weird to be comparing a DAC and a server!). The N20 had an incredible blackness to the sound, and the effect reminded me of when I demoed an Audioquest Niagara 5000. Again, the Merason has none of this. And as above, there is no clamping of the upper frequencies.
I am starting to see in the Merason what reviewers have been referring to “rightness” of the sound, even if performance isn’t all out through the roof.
I can see how people say that this DAC encourages you to listen to music and says, “stop worrying about all that HiFi stuff”. It feels like that old pair of jeans that is maybe a bit worn but just fits right and is comfortable. Which may not be the most exciting thing in the world, but it’s just friendly and inviting. First time I fired up the N20 in comparison, to continue the analogy, it was like a brand new pair of designer jeans that needed assessments still for proper fit. Totally different sound with the N20!
I’ll also say this. You know those odd tracks that never never quite sound right on your system? Maybe it’s a me thing. But u2’s One has always sounded weird on my system. For the first time ever it sounds totally at ease with the DAC 1.
Today I learned from Merason that the DAC 1 can only do 176K on USB. 192 is supported on AES and SPDIF however. Which is exactly what the specifications state. I suppose I wasn’t sure what that meant, as I thought that would seem odd. This will not make the MU1 happy in 4X oversampling mode when playing 44k source material.
I’ve asked Grimm if there is any way to force the 4X output to always be 192k (which would be fine for the DAC1) and never 176k. But I doubt there is a way, at least, I doubt there is without compromising SQ (maybe Roon could “pre-upsample” to ensure the 192k cap is hit with 4X oversampling but that wouldn’t be good for sound). Anyone know if there is a solution? Guessing not.
It’s a shame because I really like the DAC1. I even love the way it looks. I like how you can see the circuit boards through the top and how the orange leds illuminate the inside when the lights are low.
My Gryphon DAC is more resolving but that’s probably due to the limitation of my $500 RCA interconnects I’m currently is using while waiting for my new cables. But the DAC1 sounds more natural, open, and musically involving. Vocals are more expressive on the DAC1 not due to performance but due to it being more neutral than my Gryphon DAC which I now understand to be quite coloured. I have mixed feelings on this coloration. The Gryphon’s tone sounds great overall but it makes vocals much smaller. The Gryphon DAC’s bass is bigger and rounder (and more detailed) but the DAC1 has far punchier and rhythmic, “carved” bass. This along with the expressive vocals is what makes this more musically involving than my Gryphon DAC.
All of this would improve with the new cables and the DAC 1 could be upgraded to the MK2 version for presumably better resolution. But very sadly, that won’t ever happen if I end up keeping the MU1, due to the limitation of the DAC1’s AES output not doing 176k. Zero issues with Innuos though, using USB!
I feel like the DAC 1 has some heart and soul to it. Too bad…. But it’s taught me a lot about my Gryphon DAC even without the balanced cables.
A couple of observations and a little cajoling to follow.
First of all, the Merason DAC1 can be end game for some but based on this thread, it was likely to never be more than an external dac proof of concept in your system. You needed and deserved a reference point to see where your internal dac board measured in comparison. You have discovered that it will stack up nicely and that its merely different. In fact, there is a growing body of evidence among many users that zoning in on bit rates rather than the sound as a whole to be an unfortunate use of one’s time. Does it sound great or not?
When you get your MU1 and the fancy cables, set the MU1 for 2fs and forget about it for a while. Do NOT do any upsampling via Roon…that would be the wrong direction since the MU1 will be your Roon core the anticipated benefits of doing so in my opinion would not outweigh the negeative impact caused by taxing the cpu. I can switch between 2fs and 4fs on the fly and I find the differences to be so minimal that its probably confirmation bias on my part. YMMV.
There are numerous exceptional dacs on the market in the $10-20k range. The MU1 will help you determine if the Gryphon dac board can be satisfying to your ears and be a stopping point for you, however, if you find the Merason more satisfying than the Gryphon dac board then all you’ve learned is a pretty decent external dac is better than a pretty decent dac board. Then you would likely begin trying different external dacs. Ive had too many dacs to re-count for this thread…most of which presented my music wonderfully: Lampizator, Nagra, Playback Designs, Chord Dave, Meitner, etc, etc. I’ve settled in with Totaldac, others have settled in with other brands and found happiness. Thats what its all about. Settle in and listen for a while when the MU1 and your cables arrive. Set the MU1 for 2fs and forget about it. Do you like what you hear? Do you like it a week later?
At the end end of this next phase of this exercise you will discover a few salient data points.
1) Does the MU1 maximize the performance of your Gryphon dac board and is it enough to be a stopping point for you?
2) Does the Merason improve upon the Gryphon dac board to the point that it leads you to believe the apex performance of the dac board is more similar to the entry point of better dacs?
3) Is the cost differential and added complexity worth it to you?
4) Keep it simple, you won’t learn nearly as much about a future spouse by speed dating as you will if you take the time to get to know them well. The same applies here.
I can switch between 2fs and 4fs on the fly and I find the differences to be so minimal that its probably confirmation bias on my part. YMMV.
I find this very likely to be the case. I believe that there’s a potential in getting to caught up with numbers and tech sometimes. 4f does not have to be the default “best” setting for every DAC and circumstances. Great advice to take your time, relax and listen.
Makes good sense @ghasleyand thank you as always. I am really quite interested in the MK2 version of the DAC1 too. In theory it should compete at a much higher level, but there are no reports on how it sounds yet.
@nyevlet me repeat. There quite a few of us who are following your journey with great interest and really appreciate your candor. Ignore the pompous ignoramus and please carry on.
Looking forward to hearing your impression of the MU1 streamer with both DACs.
Keep it coming.
It’s all good and no worries! It’s the internet. There’s a lot of nastiness on these boards but I’ve also gleaned a TON of great info on this forum over the years. Including on this thread. Hopefully I’ve helped others somehow as well.
I could be mistaken but I think @lordmeltonmay be a bit miffed that I sold the Aurender. But to a very happy buyer upgrading from his N10 who just received it today! To each their own.
Will continue posting updates on the remainder of this journey for sure. Waiting patiently…. Okay, maybe not so patiently :)
The DAC1 is a really, really fine DAC. You will find almost all people agree. I enjoy it! It’s not very obvious that it doesn’t do 176k (aside from with USB, so Innuos works great!). I mean, they say everywhere it supports up to 192k so unless you very carefully read the manual how would you know that USB supports all rates but not others? Finally, this DAC is purpose built to be musically enjoyable. No bells and whistles, no frills. If you feel the need for a display, that’s okay! I don’t need one.
This DAC works just fine for USB users (Innuos) as @ghasleyused it with.
It’s already been worth the experience!
My Innuos stuff has no display either and I think that’s really cool in a stealth sort of way. I’d actually prefer if the MU1 didn’t have one!
What grates my posterior is those two clowns Coco and Bungle recommend and endorse a DAC to you that doesn't do 176 Khz.
Perhaps in time your anger will subside. Meanwhile, many audiophiles enjoy DACs that won't do 176 kHz. Some are even happy at 96 kHz, and will recommend them accordingly. Then there are those who use NOS DACs. That's an approach I've never understood, but it works for quite a few.
For me, that's part of what makes our audio pursuit interesting - there is no One Way. Some insist that there is only One Correct Way and as @lordmeltonreveals, most of them get frustrated quite quickly and for some it rises to anger.
The thread about underhung arms suffers the same problem - the concept angers a few and the fact that they've never seen or heard one makes no difference at all!
Catching up on your musings…LOL! I see you’ve sold N20 and enjoying Merason DAC1. Personally, I wouldn’t have sold N20 until I’ve found the DAC that checks all the boxes. It’s all good, this is your journey. Just have fun and don’t be afraid to step out of your comfort zone. As long as you’re not giving away your kidney to afford your musings, you’ll be fine :-)
The Merason DAC1 is a fine performer. The NOS DACs are known to have more natural presentation. The highs tend to be smoother and clearer, and the entire presentation is more analog like which is what most of us strive for and hope from our digital gear. Some folks may see these purpose built DAC’s as compromising or lacking in features but they focus on one thing, and do it well rather than try to be all things to everyone. Streaming resolution maxes out at 24bit/192kHz so you’re A-Ok with DAC1 and Gryphon onboard DAC’s. When you get your MU1, be sure to use a good AES cable between MU1 and DAC1 / Gryphon and you will realize full potential of all components as intended by their respective designers. Follow @ghasleylead on all things with MU1 to achieve best outcome before considering another streamer or DAC options.
Some folks may see these purpose built DAC’s as compromising or lacking in features but they focus on one thing, and do it well rather than try to be all things to everyone.
As usual, lalitk hits the nail on the head. Good and sensible advice.
I know moving on from the N20 was a bit premature, but while I had planned to have the cash “locked up” in my demo gear until I was through testing, I had a buyer approach me, and I know how long gear can be listed even at fair market value. In short, I am rather fond of BOTH of my kidneys, lol!
I haven’t sent any notice to you, so the image you posted is rather weird. I can’t explain it. My last post in this thread (before this one) was . You can see for yourself, @lordmelton.
... if you want to settle for 88 or 96 Khz that’s up to you and your low fidelity and low self esteem.
I think there’s a problem in audiogon where the same notification is sent multiple times. It happened to me also where I received the same notification more than ten times. Doesn’t mean the sender is doing it.
I think there’s a problem in audiogon where the same notification is sent multiple times. It happened to me also where I received the same notification more than ten times.
Thanks for the confirmation. I've never seen it happen here before.
I did once submit a post and it made a half-dozen or so copies. I noticed it and deleted the dupes. That caused quite a kerfuffle because some members insisted a moderator was censoring the thread.
Hey @nyev, while you are waiting for the MU1 to arrive…
Did you try the N20 without the PhoenixNET in the Ethernet chain, while using the AES output?
I just skimmed through the conversation and couldn’t find an answer.
I’m asking because I recently added an audiophile switch (with LPS), and I was very surprised to hear the highs rolled off dramatically, compared to Ethernet directly connected to my router. This was strangely so even though I was only playing my reference files from an internal SSD within my N20. Not even streaming files through the Ethernet! Really surprised me. Needless to say, the new switch is no longer in my system!
“I recently added an audiophile switch (with LPS), and I was very surprised to hear the highs rolled off dramatically, compared to Ethernet directly connected to my router.” @rockrider
What switch did you try? The N20 LAN is 2x isolated so a subpar switch probably do more harm than good :-)
"What switch did you try? The N20 LAN is 2x isolated so a subpar switch probably do more harm than good :-)" The other question is "did you let the SoTM switch burn in?" It may need several+ weeks to get there, maybe even more. I've never owned that switch, so I'm not sure on burn in for it, but I can tell you even Network cable can take some time to burn in; I've heard the "highs rolled off dramatically" in a Supra Cat8+ cable that has 1000s of hours but had been in a box for a year. I put it back in my system recently, then reversed direction after a few weeks, and it took near another week before it opened up and all the resolution was there. Was frustrating, but patience let me find the correct orientation. I also had a power conditioner that had literally 15 years of use go back in on the network side of my system a few months back and it took over ten days to open up, but it was very easy to hear once it did. Just a few of my recent observations. Anyway, good luck in your journey. Sorry about the off topic OP; enjoying the thread.
One would assume that! In grand scheme of things, SoTM recommends using few different configuration of their own LAN cables to get the best out of sNH-10G switch. Not to mention two layers of upgrade option on their switch. I do not know, how deep did you go but it can get pretty expensive with their cabling and LPS.
I went all-in on the switch, special caps/silver wires etc. My Ethernet cables are simple Certified Blue Jeans cables. But the only difference is addition of the switch plus another certified Blue Jeans cable.
Thanks for the insights. I thought this was relevant to the conversation since @nyevis using the PhoenixNET switch, and also observed less detail etc when using an N20.
I cannot answer your question from experience, but I've read many accounts of those who are streaming files from hard drives have experienced better sound quality with improved Network cables and switches. I don't understand why, but I believe them as I put significant stock in personal experience.
The way I would burn in the switch is just to stream music 24/7 for at least a few weeks; so just leave your streamer playing even if it is on another input. That is the fastest way to get through the burn in process and I've done it many times recently and in the past.
The LinkUp LAN cable is a **new** reference for high performance digital systems without the high dollars price tag. Anyone putting together a streaming system, should audition this cable. The only caveat, the 22AWG version cable is bit stiff so no sharp bends. If you need flexibility, try the 26AWG version.
I can answer that for you. LinkUp 8 handily beats the Supra Cat8+ in my system. My entire chain is LinkUp 8 with the exception of a Supra 8+ from ONT to Router. I may go to LinkUp 8 on that connection as well in the future. The great thing, as for now, LinkUp 8 is less expensive than Supra. Give it a shot, but be warned it has a long burnin time.
For clarity, this is the LinkUp 8 I use, it is Yellow cable rather than black. I am unsure if they are exactly the same but they appear so based on the description. -
I'd agree with @lalitk on his comments on the sound quality of this cable: vs. Supra, it has significantly better resolution, which yields better, more natural flow and ease to the sound.
Hi @rockrider, catching up…. I did try the N20 with and without my PhoenixNet in the chain. I think I mentioned somewhere in the many posts above, that while the PhoenixNet sounds fantastic with my Innuos gear and definitely improves things, I felt it did add a tension to the N20 that I didn’t like. Likewise, I tried adding the PhoenixUSB to the N20’s USB output. While things became more resolving, they also became less energetic and flat. My conclusion before was that Innuos and Aurender gear are allergic to each other!
Both Phoenix products are absolutely fantastic with the Zenith Mk3 though.
The MU1 and my Shunyata cables should arrive in 1-2 weeks, hopefully.
This digital streaming thing is a strange science. There are those who insist that their implementation of a particular solution is the one and only parameter when it comes to achieving audio nirvana. I think that any music lover’s solution to hearing their favorite songs should be easy, and seamlessly, integrated into their own physical environment.
I think that any music lover’s solution to hearing their favorite songs should be easy, and seamlessly, integrated into their own physical environment.
Not much in high end audio is easy and seamless. Why should streaming be any different?
They were designed specifically to enhance performance of entire Innuous line except their flagship - Statement. Their incompatibility or adverse effects with any non-Innuos products is not at all surprising to me.
Also, in case anyone is interested, the SOtM sNH-10G has been running in and I tried it again today with the same results. However I tried alternating between LEDs on and off and lo and behold the highs and details returned with them turned off. Hallelujah!
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