just toying around with this and it might not even happen.
have a tube preamp now and while i might sell this later on and get another preamp.......have there been members that have had a tube preamp, sold it and went to a solid state preamp and kept it ? or did you prefer the tube preamp sound and went back to it ?
maybe got a tube preamp that uses different tubes than the previous one did ?
the preamp i have now, i like the way it sounds, but just not a fan of the 6sn7 and never really have been. i prefer the 6922, 12au7 / 12ax7 tubes better.
I have not read all the posts in this Thread and after approx' 30 Years of use Tube Amplification no longer use a Traditional Design Tube Pre-Amp.
Valves that are mentioned in other Posts, I have got a familiarity with and have even Rolled types as Vintage thought to modern versions.
I have been demonstrated Tube Pre-Amp's that are carrying a substantial retail cost, 'for my budget anyhow'.
A complete turnaround occurred when I heard a Basic Pass Nutube Korg B1 Pre-Amp as a Basic Model.
The impression made was quite something, not too further on, I was demonstrated a re-think on this design, where upgrades were produced.
The upgrade Version Blew me away, and a few others who were at the Debut Demonstration.
I have now been loaned a Korg B1 for a considerable period, which had minor tweaks to the circuit over the standard design.
Within my system this has been A/B compared to Pre-Amps owned and loaned. It has stood out as a very worthy device.
I have also had the earlier mentioned Upgrade Version compared to the loaned Korg B1, and the Upgrade has been superb.
This Pre- Amp has made a big impact on the Local HiFi Group and there are now Five Versions in use excluding a Balanced Version produced.
At present I am having a Balanced Version produced for myself, that will incorporate all the circuit upgrades that has been extremely impressive to experience.
This is not an expensive option, there is lots of support to be found, but might need a support from a EE, as I have chose to.
For my money the 6SN7 is the far superior tube, and they’re a much larger variety of them in NOS. Plus you can swap them for a CV181. The 6922 is far more limited, imo. But to each their own.
As everyone else here, I have been through this journey with fairly intense involvement (I mean spending on average at least 3-4 hours every day) and making changes (after careful research, audition, discussion) over period of 4 years to ultimately get my current set up (still not 100% yet, but quite there: always room for improvement). In my opinion changing different components has major impact on certain very key factors: I have spent ample time and money on every component diligently (speakers, amps, preamps, dac, streamer, cables, footers, stands, room treatments), I mean a lot of experimentations (changing one component at a time to know exact impact of each). You have to follow logically, else, you get frustrated. I am not telling you have not done your part: In fact, I am assuming you might have done better than me.
Having said that for soundstage, besides speakers and amps, biggest and major factor playing huge role is Room treatment: I learned this painfully and expensively. Trying to change gears after gears with some (but not major) impact, until I paid good time and attention to room treatment. Room treatment can make expensive gears sound cheap (or politely put suboptimal). I am sure you have done your room treatment, but if you are struggling with soundstage, I would pay attention to room treatment again. Changing electronic gears (preamps, dac, streamer) does change soundstage, but they do change more of tonality (and other characters which I am not going to talk). Another important thing to help with soundstage (can compensate for suboptimal room treatment) is addition of subwoofers (I am not using it, as I have had very good results with my room set up without subwoofers). I was heavy SS guy and now I am all tube guy.
Just to be pre-amp specific: I have tried a bunch of tube and solid state Preamps: ultimately ended up with Aries Cerat. They are very expensive, but in my opinion, end game gears. If your budget stretches, try them or hear them. I have Aries Cerat Kassandra Mk2 dac and incito S preamp (eventually will change to ageto preamp and ianus essentia amps).
My response is based on my observation in my set up. Ultimately, music is subjective and you change things to make your ears happy/ satisfied. There is no right or wrong answer: just preference.
I am very busy lately and have not posted for a while. I am on vacation now and thought to help out our fellow friends who are going through this "audio/music nirvana". If I don't respond again, it is not I am ignoring or rude. I just have enough time in my plate. Remember it is "your ears, your money and your music".
OK, so you have PBN speakers (someone mentioned that you owned them but I didn't see it in a search), they are 42 inches from the front wall and they are firing straight ahead and your room is 12x11x8. Fairly small room for PBN speakers, it seems. I looked at the PBN website and most of their speakers are large and horn loaded in the high frequencies. Their smallest speaker has two eight inch woofers and a ribbon high frequency driver and the ribbon seems to be mounted in a waveguide/small horn as well. Not sure if you know, but horn speakers are very directional and in your smaller sized room, a lot of the high frequency information may be going right past you, straight to the back wall. A lot of set up advice tells you to keep speakers away from the side walls. For most speakers that have dome tweeters, this is very good advice. In your case, not so much. Horns and dipole speakers (electrostatics, planars, etc.) can be placed much closer to side walls without adverse effects. I would try moving your speakers closer to the sidewalls (maybe a foot and a half to two feet away, experiment) and toe them in a bit, not pointing at your ears, but maybe at your shoulders and see if that helps. Toe-in too much and the soundstage will close down and get smaller, too little tow in and the sound can sometimes become more diffuse. I currently own a 6SN7 preamp, and it has a marvelous soundstage, but then I am running some Sylvania "Bad Boys" from the early 1950's, so that helps. They were a dramatic change from the Chinese tubes that it shipped with. I have also owned preamps with 6922's and a couple of preamps with 12AX7"s. They all had an excellent soundstage. I have also run several SS preamps, and they also threw a quite decent soundstage. In a room your size I would personally try some monitor speakers that are known for their imaging and a sub woofer or two, depending on how much bass you like. The only other thing I can think of to suggest, is to reverse the phase on one end of your speaker cable. Just swap positive to negative on each speaker and see if that works. If that works, rock on and let us know. If not, don't forget to change them back. Hope this helps.
If you really love great sound quality you really deserve to own a great tube preamp. It is easy to develop a list of potential problems with a technology and stay a way from it.
For several decades I stayed away from tubed amps. For me, it was a real mistake. The “problems” were so minuscule and the benefits so large it isn’t funny. I have owned tubed preamps for decades and tube amps for only about 5,000 hours of listening time (the last 4 years). I wish I had allowed myself to get a great tube amp decades ago.
My experience. But most of the audiophiles I know switched to tubes late and never went back to so,I’d state,
I don't have experience with good tube preamps and want to avoid them due to maintenance, microphonics, noise, distortion, and power usage. I just received my benchmark HPA4 and have been pleased so far. The clarity, imaging, and wide bandwidth are amazing. 30 day money back and the HPA4 is $3300 and the LA4 w/o headphone is $2900. I came here to say that PCs and fuses can help you tailor the sound, even with these types. Look at the rest of your system too. My next stop in a guest for warmth with all SS, all digital is the wall outlet. I have Furutech GTD-R which has a bit of U shaped EQ, and was suggested to use SR Purple or Audience outlets.
Maybe some heavy McMasters felt glued on the front of your large floor standing speakers would help with imaging. Like old Dunlavys or Wilsons. I plan to try that with my psb platinum T8 towers.
So let me get this straight; you like the sound of your preamp but not the tubes in it? How do questions like this get past the moderator? All I'll say is that if you listen to records through a low (0.2 mV or lower) output cartridge, odds are a solid state preamp will be quieter with less hiss and less typical tube noise.
I will never ever get rid of my tube audio equipment. Preamp or power amp. I also will never ever give up my solid state power amp or preamp. They both have there own area's of sound reproduction plus and minus. I have 3 different systems each one of th has a tube preamplifier connected to a solid state power amplifier. Solid state for the deep more control bass and tube for liquid midrange and sweet silky highs.i also have system with just solid state equipment and one system that's all tube- power amp and preamp. Like I mentioned earlier they both have there plus and minus but I need both to make ears whole.
I tried various combos of amps and pre amps over many decades. In the end I generally preferred a solid state amp and a tube preamp.
I have the same preference.
Consider posting the issue that you’re having with sound reproduction, such as soundstage and post a photo of your system and a listing of components in your profile. This will get you to a better solution without presupposing that the problem has to do with your preamp.
I've had my two Dynaco ST 70's and PAS 3 preamp and Magnepan and Vandersteen speakers for almost fifty years and loved them. I've been careful to to maintain and upgrade the Dynas but they have lost their luster for me. I suspect it's mostly due to my diminished hearing ability. I've just replaced them with a McCormack DNA-0.5 Deluxe, a Parasound 850 preamp and an SMSL DAC and I'm in heaven again. It may be due to these particular components and not their solid stateness but the music is back;
There's an enormous difference between various brands of tubes. I have no experience with the 6SN7. My preamp runs the 6CG7, which is the electrical equivalent. But there are big differences between various manufacturers.
Try doing some tube rolling and find what sounds good to you.
I think alot has to do with the design and implementation of the preamp, whether tube or SS and how well our ears are trained to hear these deviations. I had a Rotel RC-970BX preamp and thought it was sounded good, and it did but when I went to a RC-995 and honestly, their was a difference especially in the bass region. To me, bass is important in general, anything from subbass to 250hz. Any fundamental sound produced in this area may have an effect in the higher octaves.
I have several preamps, but the one I’m using now is made by Dodd Audio and is battery operated. I’m using Tungsgram 6922 tubes. It’s dead quite with 16db of gain, and I have it mated with a First Watt SIT-3. If you can find one used it would make a wonderful preamp. This preamp has a number of good reviews
I've moved from a Rogue Metis to a Topping Pre90, and I kept and love the Topping piece. Much blacker backgrounds, more dynamic and detailed, more drive from top to bottom. I've loved my Rogue for many years, even found my dream 6sn7, the very bassy RCA grey glass. Just love the Pre90 more, simply cleaner and more transparent. Plenty of drive and gain for my inefficient speakers, both vinyl and DAC. Very affordable, a fine bargain in my book.
There are a multitude of really good SS & Tube preamplifiers. There are some really bad preamplifiers, too. Stick to the requirements that you need for connectivity and try to demo a few if you can. Happy listening & Best of Luck.
Something else you might want look at is a hybrid preamp. Usually it only has one pair of gain tubes, the rest is SS. Get the SS and you can still do some tube rolling if you want.
@youwin good to know, and hopefully working with Aric a bit more to explore more can help. For some reason you decide to swap out your current preamp for something else permanently, I’m betting you won’t have a hard time finding a new owner if you decide to put it up for sale. Best of Luck on troubleshooting the next steps. I for one am a huge fan of well designed 6SN7 preamp / line stage units.
@youwinI received your Audiogon message and they will not let me reply to it with any personal info. If you could, please send me a message through my website, let me know your name and when you purchased the preamp (so I can reference it), then I should be able to help. Best regards, Aric
audiogon suspended my account so had to create a new one
i have tried other 6sn7 tubes and some like you say were to bright sounding, so didnt care for those.....i think those were the rca's ( could be wrong ). i have tried the sylvanias also and like those as they are a bit more laid back.
if you’ve not already tried possibly more transparent interconnects (yes it can help) to try on loan, between your sure and preamp, and preamp to amp 3) then if still not resolved, ask your PBN speaker manufacturer if there is a more open crossover capacitor or slight crossover/x-over change to open up that tweeter a bit more, is it rolled off some?
i have tried other IC's and it changed things, but not enough.
there is nothing wrong with the speaker, i dont need to have the tweeter opened up more, there is plenty of detail.
I was about to suggest the same as Aric. I’m currently using a 6SN7 preamp with various tubes in the stable. Every single/different tube I've tried (NOS vintage or new) offers a different sound, presentation, level of detail and stage/focus can change. More info about your existing tubes in that preamp may help too.
i.e. my NOS Sylvania 6SN7 long black plates are uber detailed and almost too forward and open compared to my other/smoother softer PSVane or TJ Full Music ’SN7 tubes, or new reissue Tung Sol 6SN7s a bit more rolled off. However, with your speakers and tweeters, might be a match for you. It’s a balancing act.
Have you already tried a few other 6SN7 or 6SL7 tubes in your preamp, as Aric is kindly suggesting? This is a start and common to try among members here. He mentioned caps too, yep, these can be changed too, ask Aric more imo.
Amp/Cables/Speakers:
Reviewing your Innersound 300 amp, (i.e. similar to Coda 3.3 Stage), right?, I don’t think your amp is a culprit as much as it might be fining a combination of the 1) correct ’SN7 tube in your preamp 2) if you’ve not already tried possibly more transparent interconnects (yes it can help) to try on loan, between your sure and preamp, and preamp to amp 3) then if still not resolved, ask your PBN speaker manufacturer if there is a more open crossover capacitor or slight crossover/x-over change to open up that tweeter a bit more, is it rolled off some? Maybe so, worth asking them. Some small changes might go along way here first.
imo, several things to try long before jumping off the cliff to another preamp.
I have always preferred 6922 based preamps . 6922s do vary in sound between good NOS tubes and new units like the JJ which I liked a lot. That's just personal taste. see
1It's not a matter of better just slightly different sonics. Solid state is a whole different sound. Me, I'd find a decent 6922 preamp and then play a little with tube rolling. If you're using a Schitt youmight try the LISST ss substitute. It's only $50.
I’m really surprised no one asked - What amp are you currently using? The synergy between the amp and preamp is very important. Personally, I wouldn’t consider a tube amp and solid state preamp. Frankly, I don’t recall an instance when someone was running this combination. I’m quite partial to a tube preamp and high current solid state amp(s). My Apogees need more current than most tube amps offer as well though.
L/R MUST be working equally to create a center image which is entirely Phantom.
It sounds like something is in MONO mode, OR something is wrong with your l/r connections. out of preamp to amp; speaker connections. OR, inside the preamp. OR inside your amp.
why do you say that it sounds like its in mono mode ? vocals sound like they are coming from the center, isnt that where they are suppose to sound like they are coming from ?
1. Double Check all your connections, find something wrong, fix it.
its a very simple system, preamp, cd player, amp. all connections are correct
2. double check all tubes: in correct sockets? (I switched my 6sn7 with 6sl7 once)
there are only 2 tubes....so hard to mess that up.
3. Prove AMP is producing Stereo (omit preamp). Hook up a CD player (any line level device (not LP) directly to the amp . Nice imaging? IF so, speaker wires are ok and amp is ok.
cd player cant go direct. amp is producing stereo
4. Same CD, same track: thru the preamp to amp. Sound same as when CD player straight to amp?
a. you have two sets of outputs on that preamp, have you tried them both?
b. 4 inputs on the preamp, try each input, any difference?
if you're looking for soundstage, a lot of that will come from speaker placement in your room. For instance, if you have an amazing center image but not a lot of soundstage width or depth I'm gonna guess that your speakers are 1, too close together, or 2, toed in quite a bit
as i said earlier :
the room has been treated, speakers have been moved every which way you can think of.....and nothing really changes.
there is no toe in at all. speakers are 69" apart, so i dont think they are to close together ( and they are 42": from back wall and 32" from side wall ).
@innersound300While the 6SN7 tube itself might not be to your liking, it may also help to try some other 'SN7s in the pre to see if you can tailor the sound more to what you're looking for. In the preamp, both channels are completely separated at the positive signal and only coupled at the ground (like all other single-ended devices). In some cases I've found that pronounced frequency response in the midrange can often make the soundstage sound more center focused whereas less midrange energy and more HF energy can give the impression of more extension to soundstage width. If you have no already, I would consider trying some other 6SN7s or even 6SL7s- both of which can be safely used in your Transcend preamp. I find 6SL7s, aside from having higher gain, to also sound a little leaner in the midrange and have more of an extended top end, or more of a "Noval" (mini) type of tube sound. It might be worth a try?
Other than that, oftentimes small component upgrades internally can work wonders to bring the stage width out further, such as coupling caps, signal resistors, power supply filter cap change, etc. with the most prominent change occurring with a change of the coupling caps- as there is only one per channel. Anyhow, I just wanted to offer my 2 cents in the hopes it may help with the soundstage issue.
My experience was that I got solid imaging and wide soundstage when I switched to Mapleshade Golden Helix speaker wire. And you can try that for $150. And if you don’t like it they have a return policy. They want you to be happy with purchase.
Latest preamp is Audio by Van Alstine Vision RB preamp. It is SS and beautiful sweet analog sounding to me.
something is wrong with connections, externally or internally.
L/R MUST be working equally to create a center image which is entirely Phantom.
It sounds like something is in MONO mode, OR something is wrong with your l/r connections. out of preamp to amp; speaker connections. OR, inside the preamp. OR inside your amp.
1. Double Check all your connections, find something wrong, fix it.
2. double check all tubes: in correct sockets? (I switched my 6sn7 with 6sl7 once)
3. Prove AMP is producing Stereo (omit preamp). Hook up a CD player (any line level device (not LP) directly to the amp . Nice imaging? IF so, speaker wires are ok and amp is ok.
4. Same CD, same track: thru the preamp to amp. Sound same as when CD player straight to amp?
a. you have two sets of outputs on that preamp, have you tried them both?
b. 4 inputs on the preamp, try each input, any difference?
I admittedly did t read all the comments but if you're looking for soundstage, a lot of that will come from speaker placement in your room. For instance, if you have an amazing center image but not a lot of soundstage width or depth I'm gonna guess that your speakers are 1, too close together, or 2, toed in quite a bit. I was having soundstage depth issues and really spent a lot of time moving my heavy speakers around and found a setup that worked extremely well where I get both soundstage width and depth as well as great imaging. My speakers are pushed to where they're about 18 inches from the side walls and 10 feet apart. I have ZERO toe in. I've had that setup with 3 different preamps at this point and my personal experience is that the 2 6sn7 based preamps sounded better than the 12au7 mu follower design one.
I guess what I'm saying is play with speaker placement. The equipment you have should be more than capable of producing a nice soundstage.
SPL Elector preamp is a superb solid state preamp. The biggest soundstage I ever got with a preamp is with my Black Ice F360 hybrid preamp. You can dial in some impressive space. I would though ditch the stop tube and put in a Linlai 6SN7 as it is much better.
There’s a little bit of an elephant in the room I believe. You are much more likely to be able to adjust your soundstage and imaging with different speakers than any kind of preamp changes. Possibly you just love your PBN’s so now you gotta find what works with them . I think if you changed speakers you might find that is the path to you desired sound
Just my personal experience. I thought I’d never go back to SS for my pre until my Luxman started acting up. I’d always wanted an Audio Research pre and figured this was as good a time as I was likely to see. I’ve been using the ARC for about 6 weeks now I guess and don’t feel like I’m missing anything at this point. Power amps are still tubes, so there’s that.
I have had Schiit Freya + preamp and then Esoteric then SPL Director. The director also has a DAC that I don't use but the preamp is the exact same as the SPL Elector. Here is a great review on how good it is.
Sounds like the soundstage issue is a big problem unrelated to tube vs solid state. You might start out by discussing this issue with the manufacturer. I’m assuming that in treating your room that you did basic things like damping first reflections. ghprentis Is always a great resource and his suggestion of posting a room photo might be helpful.
I would do it just on principle. What principle is that you may ask? The principal of the boiling frog.
Tubes degrade over time. SS much, much less so. I own Tube and SS equipment; amps and preamps.
Every few months I will switch between SS and Tube for some comparative listening to assure that my tube equipment has not slowly degraded in sound quality.
And in fact I was prompted to buy some new tubes after the most recent switch test...
If you are looking for a straight wire with gain kinda preamp that projects a huge, transparent, and open 3D soundstage, look no further than this. If it doesn’t work you can turn around and sell it with little/no loss. I owned their BP-6 with a very similar architecture and it was fantastic. Well worth a try IMHO.
Nad - pre is,nice, but gets warm, make sure it is ventilated on top
parasound p5
adcom preamp
used Onkyo p-308 - may need additional 180-250$ have a good tech open, replace,caps with higher quality, clean everything. A warmish sound to Onkyo, gives depth to music.
I would say that if you are looking at high end products… say in the $5K to $25K… tube products are likely to sound better.
in my previous reply, i said under $5k...and probably even closer to $2k would be more likely at the moment.
Also, for use to be helpful, if you would put some quick photos and your components under your UsrID… under virtual systems, we can be tremendously more helpful. Lots of times a question comes in about a piece of equipment, but the answer is about how your system is set up or your venue. Very helpful.
setup is fine.....as i said, there are room treatments, speakers have been moved in every direction possible and the end result is always the same : center imagining and that is where it ends. i would like more soundstage, hence the preamp question / post.
I agree the best for the money are definitely tubes. Given equal cost take the tube route. Cost no object SS, but it will still come down to personal preference, I like both for different reasons.
If you liked the 12AX tubes, you might like the Quicksilver Linestage. Much more straight ahead sound (less tubey) than 6SN7 but still with great intimacy, soundstage, and tonal straightforwardness. I have a modded/upgraded one (Mundorf, VCAPS) and I'll be listing it for sale soon.
I have owned a dozen preamps over the last fifty years. My objective was always to improve the sound of my system with the next purchase.
I suspect primarily because of cost my first preamps were solid state… but for the last twenty years or so my preamps have been tubed. This is because as I moved up (always up, never sideways) the best sounding preamps for the money are tubed.
So, I don’t think it is simply a question of tubed vs ss. It is a question of what price range you are in. I would say that if you are looking at high end products… say in the $5K to $25K… tube products are likely to sound better. More natural and musical.
Also, for use to be helpful, if you would put some quick photos and your components under your UsrID… under virtual systems, we can be tremendously more helpful. Lots of times a question comes in about a piece of equipment, but the answer is about how your system is set up or your venue. Very helpful.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
