going from tube preamp to solid state

If you like the 6922 tubes you might like a good solid state preamp. Blow your budget on a really good one. 

@russ69 

whats wrong with the 6922 tubes ?

any recommendations for a solid state preamp ?    would need dual outputs.

I think you’re gonna find this tough.  I’m now going the opposite direction and switching from a SS pre to a tube pre, and I’m not expecting to be disappointed.  With the generally long tube life in most tubed preamps I can much easier embrace a tube pre relative to a tube amp.  Some tube magic is better than no tube magic is what I’m thinking, but best of luck. 

@soix 

and that is why i havent made a decision on this yet as i dont think its going to be an easy one.                   

with tube equipment  you can change the sound of it by trying other tubes , where with solid state, how it sounds is how it sounds.   

whats wrong with the 6922 tubes ?

Absolutely nothing but you said you didn't like the 6SN7 and liked the 6922 so you are sonic-ally closer to a solid state preamp. I'm an all tube guy so not sure what preamp would work for you, it might depend on the features you want/need more than pure sonics. Without knowing your system and budget, it's hard to make a recommendation. Are we $30,000 or less than $5000? 

Your question seems to assume that all tube amps sound alike and the same with solid state.  So not only is it important to discuss specific models, but as you pointed out tubes used and different speakers, power amps and personal taste will all muddy the waters.  Purchase an amp that you are interested in with the right to return for full money back, or get a local loaner.

@russ69 

if i was to do a change, i would say less than $5k.

@vonhelmholtz 

i know not all tube or solid state preamps sound the same.....no different than tube and solid state state amps dont sound the same. 

i am just toying with an idea and like i said, it might not even happen.

@innersound300

I fully realize that you know that all xxxx amps don’t sound the same, but how can someone provide you with a useful suggestion without knowing what your system consists of?

@innersound300 

What preamp are you using currently?

BTW..You can post your system under your profile and you can see what others are using under their profile.

I have always listened to tube preamps, so I won’t be of use here but others might have experience with your preamp.

I did recently go through three phono preamps looking for a solid state phono stage that had much of the musicality of a tube preamp and I’m quite happy with where I ended up.  My power amp is solid state.

@vonhelmholtz 

using aric audio transcend preamp at the moment

what i am looking for is a preamp that can give me a bigger soundstage .  right now , all i have is center imaging and looking for more than that.      the room has been treated, speakers have been moved every which way you can think of.....and nothing really changes.      room is 12 x 11 x 8 .         

I have done it a couple of times over the past 30+ years.  The last time was 11 years ago and I haven’t looked back.  IME, you don’t need tubes to have excellent depth of tone, dimensionality, fullness, and dynamics.  That said, there are also a lot of really nice sounding tube designs.

I have owned both. You will just get used to what ever you use. The key is to give yourself time to adjust to the change. 

I’m a tube lover from way back. I usually have both,  a tube pre and SS one. The thing is having them both was a good thing because eventually I sold the tube unit and kept the Spectral. I just found my self using the SS more.  It was so different than tubes that I got to see a different perspective on the music and liked it. That being said I still miss some of the things that tubes did and plan to have both again. Only this time I’m stepping up to a better quality tube pre than before. Still can’t let my Spectral go though it’s very good. One of the newer ones but  maybe a little over the budget you mentioned. I think SS can excel over tubes but it won’t be cheap. In the $5000 range tubes may be the best bet. 

I have owned a dozen preamps over the last fifty years. My objective was always to improve the sound of my system with the next purchase.
 

I suspect primarily because of cost my first preamps were solid state… but for the last twenty years or so my preamps have been tubed. This is because as I moved up (always up, never sideways) the best sounding preamps for the money are tubed.

So, I don’t think it is simply a question of tubed vs ss. It is a question of what price range you are in. I would say that if you are looking at high end products… say in the $5K to $25K… tube products are likely to sound better. More natural and musical.

Also, for use to be helpful, if you would put some quick photos and your components under your UsrID… under virtual systems, we can be tremendously more helpful. Lots of times a question comes in about a piece of equipment, but the answer is about how your system is set up or your venue. Very helpful.

If you liked the 12AX tubes, you might like the Quicksilver Linestage. Much more straight ahead sound (less tubey) than 6SN7 but still with great intimacy, soundstage, and tonal straightforwardness. I have a modded/upgraded one (Mundorf, VCAPS) and I'll be listing it for sale soon.

I agree the best for the money are definitely tubes. Given equal cost take the tube route. Cost no object SS,  but it will still come down to personal preference,  I like both for different reasons. 

Not all preamps are created equal...tube or SS.  What tube preamp do you have, and which SS preamp are you considering?

@ghdprentice 

I would say that if you are looking at high end products… say in the $5K to $25K… tube products are likely to sound better. 

in my previous reply, i said under $5k...and probably even closer to $2k would be more likely at the moment.

Also, for use to be helpful, if you would put some quick photos and your components under your UsrID… under virtual systems, we can be tremendously more helpful. Lots of times a question comes in about a piece of equipment, but the answer is about how your system is set up or your venue. Very helpful.

setup is fine.....as i said, there are room treatments, speakers have been moved in every direction possible and the end result is always the same : center imagining and that is where it ends.      i would like more soundstage, hence the preamp question / post.

@knotscott 

Not all preamps are created equal...tube or SS.  What tube preamp do you have, and which SS preamp are you considering?

I get that not all preamps whether they are tube or solid state are created equal. 

i mentioned earlier what preamp i am using now.           

havent really seriously looked at any ss preamps right now.....as i said in the beginning, this is just an idea and it might not even happen.

basically asking if anybody has gone from tube to solid state and did they like it or did they end up going back to tubes.

Try the Sanders “the preamp”

Nad - pre is,nice, but gets warm, make sure it is ventilated on top

parasound p5

adcom preamp

used Onkyo p-308 - may need additional 180-250$ have a good tech open, replace,caps with higher quality, clean everything. A warmish sound to Onkyo, gives depth to music.

most Integra Onkyo are a good quality preamp.

probably get one for a few hundo

If you are looking for a straight wire with gain kinda preamp that projects a huge, transparent, and open 3D soundstage, look no further than this.  If it doesn’t work you can turn around and sell it with little/no loss.  I owned their BP-6 with a very similar architecture and it was fantastic.  Well worth a try IMHO. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225429657659

I would do it just on principle.  What principle is that you may ask?  The principal of the boiling frog.  

Tubes degrade over time.  SS much, much less so.  I own Tube and SS equipment; amps and preamps.

Every few months I will switch between SS and Tube for some comparative listening to assure that my tube equipment has not slowly degraded in sound quality.

And in fact I was prompted to buy some new tubes after the most recent switch test...

Sounds like the soundstage issue is a big problem unrelated to tube vs solid state.  You might start out by discussing this issue with the manufacturer.  I’m assuming that in treating your room that you did basic things like damping first reflections.  ghprentis Is always a great resource and his suggestion of posting a room photo might be helpful.

I have had Schiit Freya + preamp and then Esoteric then SPL Director. The director also has a DAC that I don't use but the preamp is the exact same as the SPL Elector.  Here is a great review on how good it is.

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/sound-performance-lab-spl-elector-preamp--performer-s800-amplifier-and--m1000-monos-by-terry-london

Just my personal experience.  I thought I’d never go back to SS for my pre until my Luxman started acting up.  I’d always wanted an Audio Research pre and figured this was as good a time as I was likely to see.  I’ve been using the ARC for about 6 weeks now I guess and don’t feel like I’m missing anything at this point.  Power amps are still tubes, so there’s that.  

There’s a little bit of an elephant in the room I believe. You are much more likely to be able to adjust your soundstage and imaging with different speakers than any kind of preamp changes. Possibly you just love your PBN’s so now you gotta find what works with them . I think if you changed speakers you might find that is the path to you desired sound

SPL Elector preamp is a superb solid state preamp.  The biggest soundstage I ever got with a preamp is with my Black Ice F360 hybrid preamp.  You can dial in some impressive space.  I would though ditch the stop tube and put in a Linlai 6SN7 as it is much better.

I admittedly did t read all the comments but if you're looking for soundstage, a lot of that will come from speaker placement in your room. For instance, if you have an amazing center image but not a lot of soundstage width or depth I'm gonna guess that your speakers are 1, too close together, or 2, toed in quite a bit. I was having soundstage depth issues and really spent a lot of time moving my heavy speakers around and found a setup that worked extremely well where I get both soundstage width and depth as well as great imaging. My speakers are pushed to where they're about 18 inches from the side walls and 10 feet apart. I have ZERO toe in. I've had that setup with 3 different preamps at this point and my personal experience is that the 2 6sn7 based preamps sounded better than the 12au7 mu follower design one. 

I guess what I'm saying is play with speaker placement. The equipment you have should be more than capable of producing a nice soundstage. 

innersound300

"speakers have been moved in every direction possible and the end result is always the same : center imagining and that is where it ends. "

......................................................

something is wrong with connections, externally or internally.

L/R MUST be working equally to create a center image which is entirely Phantom. 

It sounds like something is in MONO mode, OR something is wrong with your l/r connections. out of preamp to amp; speaker connections. OR, inside the preamp. OR inside your amp.

1. Double Check all your connections, find something wrong, fix it.

2. double check all tubes: in correct sockets? (I switched my 6sn7 with 6sl7 once)

3. Prove AMP is producing Stereo (omit preamp). Hook up a CD player (any line level device (not LP) directly to the amp . Nice imaging? IF so, speaker wires are ok and amp is ok.

4. Same CD, same track: thru the preamp to amp. Sound same as when CD player straight to amp? 

a. you have two sets of outputs on that preamp, have you tried them both?

b. 4 inputs on the preamp, try each input, any difference?

btw, what AMP?

My experience was that I got solid imaging and wide soundstage when I switched to Mapleshade Golden Helix speaker wire. And you can try that for $150. And if you don’t like it they have a return policy. They want you to be happy with purchase.
Latest preamp is Audio by Van Alstine Vision RB preamp. It is SS and beautiful sweet analog sounding to me.

happy hunting!

external meter

 Sold my tube pre some years back and bought a nice SS one. Lasted a year before I went back to tubes....

@innersound300 While the 6SN7 tube itself might not be to your liking, it may also help to try some other 'SN7s in the pre to see if you can tailor the sound more to what you're looking for. In the preamp, both channels are completely separated at the positive signal and only coupled at the ground (like all other single-ended devices). In some cases I've found that pronounced frequency response in the midrange can often make the soundstage sound more center focused whereas less midrange energy and more HF energy can give the impression of more extension to soundstage width. If you have no already, I would consider trying some other 6SN7s or even 6SL7s- both of which can be safely used in your Transcend preamp. I find 6SL7s, aside from having higher gain, to also sound a little leaner in the midrange and have more of an extended top end, or more of a "Noval" (mini) type of tube sound. It might be worth a try?

Other than that, oftentimes small component upgrades internally can work wonders to bring the stage width out further, such as coupling caps, signal resistors, power supply filter cap change, etc. with the most prominent change occurring with a change of the coupling caps- as there is only one per channel. Anyhow, I just wanted to offer my 2 cents in the hopes it may help with the soundstage issue. 

Best regards, Aric

@rmdmoore 

 if you're looking for soundstage, a lot of that will come from speaker placement in your room. For instance, if you have an amazing center image but not a lot of soundstage width or depth I'm gonna guess that your speakers are 1, too close together, or 2, toed in quite a bit

as i said earlier :

the room has been treated, speakers have been moved every which way you can think of.....and nothing really changes.   

there is no toe in at all.   speakers are 69" apart, so i dont think they are to close together ( and they are 42": from back wall and 32" from side wall ).

@elliottbnewcombjr 

 

L/R MUST be working equally to create a center image which is entirely Phantom. 

It sounds like something is in MONO mode, OR something is wrong with your l/r connections. out of preamp to amp; speaker connections. OR, inside the preamp. OR inside your amp.

why do you say that it sounds like its in mono mode ?    vocals sound like they are coming from the center, isnt that where they are suppose to sound like they are coming from ?

1. Double Check all your connections, find something wrong, fix it.

its a very simple system, preamp, cd player, amp.   all connections are correct

2. double check all tubes: in correct sockets? (I switched my 6sn7 with 6sl7 once)

there are only 2 tubes....so hard to mess that up.

3. Prove AMP is producing Stereo (omit preamp). Hook up a CD player (any line level device (not LP) directly to the amp . Nice imaging? IF so, speaker wires are ok and amp is ok.

cd player cant go direct.    amp is producing stereo

4. Same CD, same track: thru the preamp to amp. Sound same as when CD player straight to amp? 

a. you have two sets of outputs on that preamp, have you tried them both?

 

b. 4 inputs on the preamp, try each input, any difference?

btw, what AMP?

Innersound ESL 300

I tried various combos of amps and pre amps over many decades.   In the end I generally preferred a solid state amp and a tube preamp.  

I’m really surprised no one asked - What amp are you currently using? The synergy between the amp and preamp is very important. Personally, I wouldn’t consider a tube amp and solid state preamp. Frankly, I don’t recall an instance when someone was running this combination. I’m quite partial to a tube preamp and high current solid state amp(s). My Apogees need more current than most tube amps offer as well though.

innersound300

A quick find

https://stereotimes.com/amp060100.shtml

That amp certainly gets positive reviews about it's ability to create excellent imaging.

You said all you are getting is center imaging.

Mono Mode will put everything in the center

Why can't the CD player go straight to the amp? No volume/gain control without the preamp?

Did you try both outputs from the preamp out?

Try each of the 4 inputs?

...................................................

Friday Night In San Franciscco, 3 guitarists, you can/should hear each guitarist L/C/R

You could hook up a laptop headphone out directly to the amp, use computer’s volume control.

stream San Francisco from YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stream+friday+night+in+san+francisco

if nice imaging, then put preamp back in line. Same Imaging of 3 guitarists?

IF not something is wrong inside the preamp.

I have always preferred 6922 based preamps . 6922s do vary in sound between good NOS tubes and new units like the JJ which I liked a lot. That's just personal taste. see

1It's not a matter of better just slightly different sonics. Solid state is a whole  different sound. Me, I'd find a decent 6922 preamp and then play a little with tube rolling. If you're using a Schitt youmight try the LISST ss substitute. It's only $50.

@innersound300 imo, listen to @aricaudio who knows your preamp design.

I was about to suggest the same as Aric. I’m currently using a 6SN7 preamp with various tubes in the stable. Every single/different tube I've tried (NOS vintage or new) offers a different sound, presentation, level of detail and stage/focus can change. More info about your existing tubes in that preamp may help too. 

i.e. my NOS Sylvania 6SN7 long black plates are uber detailed and almost too forward and open compared to my other/smoother softer PSVane or TJ Full Music ’SN7 tubes, or new reissue Tung Sol 6SN7s a bit more rolled off. However, with your speakers and tweeters, might be a match for you. It’s a balancing act.

Have you already tried a few other 6SN7 or 6SL7 tubes in your preamp, as Aric is kindly suggesting? This is a start and common to try among members here. He mentioned caps too, yep, these can be changed too, ask Aric more imo. 

Amp/Cables/Speakers:

Reviewing your Innersound 300 amp, (i.e. similar to Coda 3.3 Stage), right?, I don’t think your amp is a culprit as much as it might be fining a combination of the 1) correct ’SN7 tube in your preamp 2) if you’ve not already tried possibly more transparent interconnects (yes it can help) to try on loan, between your sure and preamp, and preamp to amp 3) then if still not resolved, ask your PBN speaker manufacturer if there is a more open crossover capacitor or slight crossover/x-over change to open up that tweeter a bit more, is it rolled off some? Maybe so, worth asking them. Some small changes might go along way here first.

imo, several things to try long before jumping off the cliff to another preamp.

Here's one you might be interested in (Google the model # to find the US/Canadian vendor).

I'm not a 6sn7 fan either (preamp gain and as driver tubes).

DeKay

@decooney 

audiogon suspended my account so had to create a new one

i have tried other 6sn7 tubes and some like you say were to bright sounding, so didnt care for those.....i think those were the rca's ( could be wrong ).   i have tried the sylvanias also and like those as they are a bit more laid back.    

 if you’ve not already tried possibly more transparent interconnects (yes it can help) to try on loan, between your sure and preamp, and preamp to amp 3) then if still not resolved, ask your PBN speaker manufacturer if there is a more open crossover capacitor or slight crossover/x-over change to open up that tweeter a bit more, is it rolled off some?

i have tried other IC's and it changed things, but not enough.

there is nothing wrong with the speaker, i dont need to have the tweeter opened up more, there is plenty of detail.      

@youwin I received your Audiogon message and they will not let me reply to it with any personal info. If you could, please send me a message through my website, let me know your name and when you purchased the preamp (so I can reference it), then I should be able to help. Best regards, Aric

@youwin good to know, and hopefully working with Aric a bit more to explore more can help. For some reason you decide to swap out your current preamp for something else permanently, I’m betting you won’t have a hard time finding a new owner if you decide to put it up for sale. Best of Luck on troubleshooting the next steps. I for one am a huge fan of well designed 6SN7 preamp / line stage units. 

Something else you might want look at is a hybrid preamp. Usually it only has one pair of gain tubes, the rest is SS. Get the SS and you can still do some tube rolling if you want.

There are a multitude of really good SS & Tube preamplifiers.  There are some really bad preamplifiers, too.  Stick to the requirements that you need for connectivity and try to demo a few if you can.  Happy listening & Best of Luck.

I've moved from a Rogue Metis to a Topping Pre90, and I kept and love the Topping piece. Much blacker backgrounds, more dynamic and detailed, more drive from top to bottom. I've loved my Rogue for many years, even found my dream 6sn7, the very bassy RCA grey glass. Just love the Pre90 more, simply cleaner and more transparent. Plenty of drive and gain for my inefficient speakers, both vinyl and DAC. Very affordable, a fine bargain in my book.