See my Virtual System with pics before vertical rack in between and replacement with a low profile solid wood table in between: HUGE improvement
Equipment Rack Between Speakers...Good or Bad
This question came up in another current thread and I thought it would be more appropriate to start a new thread to address it. My rack is between my speakers. In the past I have tried it off to the side and didn't notice any sonic advantage. I have seen in in the past that there are some strong feelings on this subject, and I am interested in hearing what everyone has to say.
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I’ve become obsessed with trying to make my smaller/square ~13 x 13-ish room sound bigger and better. Installed bass traps, and diffusion/absorbers on side walls and rear walls. All have help tame bass, balance things out, improve decay, and liven up the room some. My next step was to experiment with moving my rack from the center of the speakers over to the sidewall. Even with a cheap $20 Amazon 7m balanced cable run (displacing my Anticable preamp to amp connection) the soundstage improvement was immediately noticeable. Beck is now standing 6’ in front of me - I was shocked how much of an improvement there was. Why didn’t I do this sooner? For those of you already curious, esp if you have a smaller rooms, I highly recommend giving it a try if you can. |
I find having the speakers out further in the room typically makes more of a difference than a rack centered between the speakers. For me I typically have the equipment rack near the wall and the speakers 3-4 ' out from the wall, but I have had to have the speaker close to the wall and have messed with a vertical rack between and then offsetting the rack on a side wall. I didn't hear much of a difference. I do feel removing a TV is a different story. Placing a TV between speakers is less than ideal. I think it is best to mount the TV on the wall and again, pull the speakers out giving them air to breath without immediate interruption. |
My friend has an old 27" tube TV 2’ behind between his two way stand mounted monitors. His room is a mess. However, the sound is exquisite. Superb imaging and sound from his custom built tube system (he is a cable manufacturer). I am happy to know that the floor support is more important. My floors are 3000 psi, 12" thick, 1/2" rebar reinforced poured concrete. As to my system location, I have found that analog; in particular, is negatively impacted (as is anything) that I place between my speakers. I had to put my dual metal stands on one side wall, several feet in front of the left speaker. The stands are welded with a 50/50 shot/sand mix and when struck, sound dead (without the fill, they have a ring to them). The VPI VI is mounted on a 1 3/8" HDF platform resting on a Townsend Sink. Behind the stands are a pair of Acoustic Fields large 3" deep absorption panels, so nothing bounces off the cherry plywood walls. There are SR HFTs at the mid-point between the seat and speakers. I can’t do any better with this room but definitely, the side location works compared to the behind the speakers location. |
It’s well known, that anything in the triangle of your speakers and listening position is not good. As many have said here, a lot depends on your source as well. Having a vinyl set up between your speakers is the second worse place you can locate it. In back of your speakers against the back wall is the worst. I have found for vinyl, the best set up is either to the left or right, between your listening position and your speakers, at least for me, seems to be the best. I struggled for years finding the best place for subs and speaker positions. For twenty years, I was pure analog, concerning my TT, but recently incorporated a Venue 360 and instead of trying to figure out what I can do to make the sound more cohesive, I now spend my time enjoying the music. I have also said before, your room is just like an additional component. Proper room treatment can not be over stressed. |
Not sure about the acoustics as I’ve never had my rack in between my speakers. But my buddy just had a larger, taller rack made for his equipment which sits behind and between his speakers. The rack is very nice looking, but even so for me it slightly disturbs the aesthetics of the listening experience. In my home my source equipment is in another room from my speakers, and I’m used to experiencing the imaging/soundstagong sensation of musicians playing in a shape-shifting venue between and behind my speakers. This is somewhat thwarted at my friend’s place by staring at a large wall of equipment and lights sitting in between the speakers. It was a better listening experience when he had his much shorter rack between his speakers. But that’s a subjective impression. I know lots of us audiophiles are gear heads who really like to stare at all their equipment when listening to music. |
I got a pair of GIK Freestand panels (gobos). Experimenting with positioning was interesting. Least effective was the pair of them standing directly in front of the screen and blocking it. Much better was having them right beside the screen, each side, touching and perpendicular to the wall behind (the front wall). Evidently, if your screen isn't wall-mounted, reflections can get behind it too as well as bouncing off the front of it. Best was them sitting half way between the back inner corner of the speakers and the front corners of the stand, at about 45 degrees to everything else. |
For anyone considering Machina Dynamica Springs for speakers and subwoofers I recommend using two 2x4s two to three feet long depending on size of speaker under each speaker with a Super Stiff Spring located at each end of the 2x4s. That allows a wide arrangement for the springs, necessary for stability with heavy high centervof gravity objects. For lightweight speakers use Baby Promethean Springs and two 2x4s. |
Hi Roxy, I would recommend seismically isolating both your speakers and each individual piece of equipment and rack. There are a wide range of isolators on the market that definitely do NOT work. I would suggest one of the following: Ingress Engineering cup and rollers directly under your equipment, supported by a thick slate platform supported by either Machina Dynamica springs, Townshend Pods or a 12 inch dia. inner tube at very low pressures. For speakers the easiest solution is Townshend Podiums but you could also use MD springs and/or Ingress speaker footers. For rack isolation you can use either Townshend Bars or Pods, alternatives would be MB springs and/or Ingress footers. For more detailed advice you are welcome to PM me. |
The search for answers to this thread is dependent on and should include the rack design, material used to build the platform, the audible sound characteristics of the rack and most importantly - rack functionality. Materials used in rack design absorb, reflect, damp and/or conduct resonance formed by vibrations through chemistry makeup; some combinations of materials convert resonance to heat, some transfer resonance to ground where others trap resonance within the components - and the list of vibration control methodologies goes on and on. Certain types of rack designs have multiple issues when placed between speakers but there are also products that deliver a favorable performance when used in that context. Lower profile racking systems are currently trending in popularity as the closer equipment is located to earth’s ground or the greater mass of the flooring, detrimental resonance will dissipate more efficiently and away from your components. This information is based on physics working in concert with the laws of gravity, motion and Coulomb friction. Applying various vibration management accessories that isolate, absorb or transfer resonance from a lesser functioning rack framework is placing a Band-Aid over the wound in hopes it will heal itself. Very few people make an effort to audition racks. Listening to rack sonic, rack noise and most importantly hearing what a highly functioning rack provides is a rarity. After reading multiple audio forums it appears to me that everyone already owns the best rack design - correct? If more listener’s compared and auditioned racks the same way amps, speakers, sources, cables, et all are purchased, you would absolutely “hear” the vast differences in performance. There would be more information available for researching this topic instead of relying on personal favoritisms, and advertising claims along with a hodgepodge of video testing methodologies that are more marketing tools in comparison to reality. Proof in performance requires a listening test along with an initial capital investment. Pick any price point - say $400 to $700 each or more depending on your budget. Pick out any two or three single shelf products from different companies making sure they have a very positive track record providing full financial return guarantees. Choose one of wood or simple butcher block, one of steel, acrylic or aluminum construction or any combination thereof. Set them up and rotate an amp, loudspeaker, or power distribution product across all three stands and you will hear what is missing from your purchasing formula and system sonics. If you do not have the initial investment capital required to audition three stands at once, try one per week as you will soon realize the absolute importance of a highly functional equipment foundation. Listeners who know the differences make more informed decisions, save money and increase their listening enjoyment from every additional purchase of electronic equipment, loudspeakers, cables, power distribution and accessories because they hear more information and musical content that most equipment has built into them. The equipment rack can disguise, remove or limit the capabilities of advancing the sound of your equipment and speaker quality to a higher level. It is the difference between good listening and absolute - wow! The racking system is in absolute command of your sonic results and easily proven to those who are interested. Robert A qualified soundman representing a manufacturer who sells vibration management accessories, speaker stands and equipment racking. |
I experimented with this over 25 years ago. Having the luxury of a dedicating music room and an adjoining equipment closet, this was what I’d learned. With monopole speakers, the ACOUSTIC effects of placing an equipment rack against the front wall (between main speakers) are minimal to moderate. It has much to do with the size/height of the rack in relations to the speaker distance from this wall. Since the tonal response and image property of the speakers dictates its placement, the net effect varies. Following the general rules of third, or fifth which some had advocated, the speakers often sits a good distance forward. Front rack effect will be minimal but still persists. Unfortunately due to domestic compromises, most setups doesn’t allow. When accessing the front rack scenario, one should take into consideration of visual influence. Having visual image of a rack smack center often trick one to reject the notion of depth perception 12 O’clock. I resorted to turning off all lights and blocking all instrumental illuminations. I’d tried closing my eyes but often times, I fell asleep. In search of perfection, I’d tried to further minimize front rack influence with flanking room tune panels. This is one step short of throwing a heavy blanket over the rack. But despite all efforts, I honestly believed that I heard a difference. Ignoring tonal balance of the speakers, I founded that the further out I pull the speakers from the front wall, the less effect the front rack will be. Near field listening anyone? I also had the opportunity to take custody of a pair of beautiful Dipole ribbon panels and this was what I’d learn. Due to the front and back radiation properties of dipole speakers, the front rack had much greater influence sonically. Lowering the rack size/height made an immediate difference and mostly improvement to image, soundstage, depth, and dimension. Short of the power-amps, the best sound I perceived was to move most, if not all, equipments out of the main room. All necessary equipments up front were kept as low as possible, under 24” in most cases. Wall treatments not withstanding, any objects placed asymmetrical along the wall will affect perceived stage to some extent. For those who are lucky enough to have a dedicated music room with separate/isolated equipment room, my humble advise is to remove all front-end equipment from the listening area. Removing delicate source equipment such as turntable, transport, etc., will pay healthy dividends. Solutions to connect the front end with main room is entirely a different topic for discussion. Unfortunately I no longer have such luxury. Thanks for listening Mosler666 |
To diffuse or not to diffuse, that's the question. I have mine between the speakers, however kept below ear height when sitting in the listening position. Build my own table on which the equipment is placed, won't vibrate much either. Table (combination of granite and damping material) plus equipment, weighs just under a 1000kg, so not suitable for all types of flooring.... table parts are placed/build up using a hydraulic pallet lifter, and can be placed by one man within 30 minutes. Besides that...it looks good too... |
These experiments are not so easy to do! Mainly because moving multicomponent audio racks around is not easy but also because I have to change several things at once to accommodate different positions. Which rather complicates the comparisons for sound quality. For the last year or so I have had my main rack (a 42 inch tall salamander synergy with a bunch of added damping) off to the side of my room, parallel to my listening position at about the 2/3 mark -- i.e. 2/3 of the way from the front wall to the back. (The room over all is 12 x 23 feet, and the speakers are about 5 feet out from one of the shorter walls. I have bass traps in the front corners and absorption on the side walls and ceiling, maybe more than I really need.) With the cables I had on hand (all shorter than 3 meters) I had to run the speaker cables straight to the speakers across the floor in front of the speakers and put my PS Audio M700 amps in between the rack and the speakers -- a kludgy stopgap. Recently I acquired a 25 foot set of balanced interconnects from Benchmark (i.e., just ’studio quality’ not audiophile) and moved the amps to the often-recommended position just behind the speakers. But then their power cords would not reach the power conditioner in my rack so I had to run a 25 foot, 12 gauge extension cord from the rack to the amps as well. And then I remembered that my speakers (Alta Audio Rhea’s) have a rear port near floor level that was blowing straight onto the amps. So that was three things that changed at once: amp position near speaker-port, long pro-grade interconnect, and extension cord for the power amps. And it did not sound as good as before. (Collapsed soundstage, more congested overall sound.) But why? After fiddling around for several days of trying various combinations of cabling and amp locations, I never got it to sound as good as before. So I moved the rack to the front wall between and behind the speakers and was able to dispense with all the long cables. Better! But I think not as good as before. And I’m still not sure which factor is the key. Is it the rack behind the speakers? Is it the amps on the floor near the speakers? (One more variable. In the side-wall position the amps were sitting on bamboo cutting boards on top of Herbie’s tender-feet on top of the concrete slab. To get them near the speakers I needed to put them on the area rug that occupies most of the listening area. So they are on the boards on the rug -- no tender-feet.. I guess that means 4 things changed not 3.) And, of course, one of the main points of moving the amps near the speakers was to be able to use short speaker cables. So I got a 4 foot set of Kimber 8TC. These were not an improvement over my previous cables (10 foot Morrow SP3). Would shorter be better? At any rate, I am now back to all the same cables I started with, the rack is on the front wall, and I can’t really be sure whether or not the system sounds significantly different than it did when the rack was on the side wall, and if so, why. But it sounds OK. So I think I’ll leave it where it is for now. And try some other short speaker cables. But I’m starting to think I should have just left everything where it was, gotten some longer speaker cables, and called it good enough. |
Depends on the size of the room. Ideally, like others have said, if you have enough room ( this is the crucial aspect) then having the rack out of the plane of the speakers and at the side is best. OTOH, IF your room is too small, like mine, then the option is not really there. As such, placing the speakers farther forward of the rack is the answer. I don't have much, if any impact from the rack in the set up...imaging is still great, although naturally limited by the size of the room dimensions. (somewhat). |
On well, I may have to spend a little more on long XLR’s since I am getting the m900u.@yyzsantabarbara You should be alright. It makes far more difference that the preamp supports the standard than the amp. To that end you can probably run Mogami Neglex and totally get away with it. If in doubt you can always audition another cable beside it. The main thing the amp has to do is have both the inverted and noninverted signal pins processed in the same manner. To bad they didn't support the standard- in an amplifier its easy to do. Its a lot harder for a preamp! |
The short answer is - it depends. Racks center of 2 channel setups are more of a detriment the higher they are IME and even more so if a monitor / TV is on top. Also, keep in mind that front wall center treatment plays a more critical role the shallower and smaller a room is since the direct sound from speakers bounces off the rear wall and then again off the front wall to the sweet spot. However, the side wall location can also be problematic especially if the rack is placed at one of the first reflection points and further exacerbates sonic issues with less speaker toe - in.
The only way to know for sure as to what best meets your sonic needs in your room is to experiment and pick the best compromise.
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Roxy, you have tried the rack off to the side and didn't notice much difference. I suggest you go with that as every system and room combo is different. FWIW, in my case, relocating my rack from between my speakers to the side wall made a noticeable improvement in soundstaging. Even though I had to replace my speaker cables with another pair (same brand) that were twice the length, the sound of my system was definitely better. Hearing is believing. |
For closure to my previous post here is Luxman’s feedback on AES48 support. The M900u / C900u do not support AES48 standard.On well, I may have to spend a little more on long XLR’s since I am getting the m900u. |
@atmasphere Just to follow up on the past post. I contacted Benchmark and their Engineering department confirmed the following: Thanks for your patience. Yes, our units do support the AES48 standard. As I mentioned previously, with my old Benchmark DAC3 + AHB2, I could not tell a difference between using Bryston Canare XLR between the preamp + amp and Audience Au24 XLR. The Bryston cost me about $60 about 20 years ago and the Audience was a few hundred used. I contacted LuxmanUSA to ask about the AES48 standard and they are contacting Luxman Japan to ask engineering. Just wanted to add this if anyone was interested. |
OK, here’s one for you. If you have components or rack in between the speakers it’s not the end of the world. The most best thing to do is isolate the components, you know, since the potential for mechanical feedback from the speakers is quite high. The effect of acoustic waves on the components is less deleterious than floor-borne vibration. |
Dear @caphill : Certainly I'm not the indicated person to answer what you ask to Mike but in the window where you seen the speakers along all his system is all the information you need. Speakers?: https://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mm-series/mmseven/ Specs: http://evolutionacoustics.com/evolution-acoustics2/specifications-for-group-brochure-4.pdf Yes, powered bass towers. Btw, you own too really good system. Congratulations, Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Millercarbon, what planet are you living on? Here on earth when dealing with very low impedance devices like loudspeakers you want a cable that has as low series and parallel resistance as is possible which means as short as possible. Since I make my own cables I don't have to worry about price much. Canare D206 can run in lengths up to 300 feet without a significant drop in bandwidth. Since all my cables are either digital or balance analog with the exception of my phono cables and speaker cables, I have perfectly performing cables at an extremely reasonable price. I could even put them in a fancy sheath, make up some marketing BS and sell them to people like you for $6000.00. But since I am stupid I make them for my friends usually as gifts. I buy the stuff in big rolls so I have all this wire hanging around. |
Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking of using the long runs based on a thread you commented on. I am thinking of using a Benchmark LA4 preamp, which I think supports the balanced standard as you described.@yyzsantabarbara I would not leave that bit about the balanced standard to chance or assumption! Ask them if the unit supports AES48. They should reply with a 'yes' or 'no' without obfuscation. The tricky bit that most manufacturers have is the part about how the balanced line system ignores ground and as a result how the output of something like a preamp **doesn't reference ground** in order to work. So if they seem uncertain if the standard is supported, ask them if it will work if only a twisted pair is used to conduct the signal, using only pins 2 and 3 of the output. If they say 'no- that will cause a hum or buzz because pin 1 isn't hooked up' or words to that effect, then you will know that the standard is not supported. I looked at their website, but information like that wasn't available. |
elliottnewcombjr, I wasn't looking to change the position of my rack, just to see the opinions of others on the subject of rack positioning in general. Just for fun though, I put a plush blanket over my rack while playing music, playing a track with and without it several times, and I couldn't really hear a difference. |
@atmasphere Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking of using the long runs based on a thread you commented on. I am thinking of using a Benchmark LA4 preamp, which I think supports the balanced standard as you described. I am getting 2 amps (one a backup or change of pace). One will be a Benchmark AHB2 amp, which I assume supports the balanced standard. I used to own the AHB2 and a Benchmark DAC3 preamp/DAC and I could not tell a difference with different XLR cables. The second amp I will get is a Luxman m900u. This one I am not sure if they follow the balanced standard. I shall see. @mijostyn Thanks for your input. I would not of thought using a AES/EBU cable between a preamp and amp was possible. I will dig more into this combo. Not too expensive to test with a short run. |
@mikelavigne I see you have MSB Select ll DAC with two mono powerbases (two separate mono PSU). Just curious, are you running a Femto 33 clock, which is its flagship clock? Spectacular setup/system by the way. I also have MSB Select ll DAC with two mono powerbases with a Femto 33 clock. I also purchased the MSB Select transport with its separate PSU for CD & SACD playbacks. As for linestage preamp & monoblock power amps I'm using Naim Statement NAC S1 linestage preamp & Naim Statement NAP S1 monoblock amps driving a pair of Magico M6 (Magico's flagship speakers). What are your speakers? They are very tall. Are those passive subwoofers or powered ones? For analog front end source components I'm using the same Clearaudio Statement Goldfinger cartridge as the one you have. For a turntable I'm using a Clearaudio Statement v2 with a Statement TT-1 tonearm. And I'm using a D'Agostino Momentum phonostage pre. For cablings, I'm using Transparent Magnum Opus speaker cables, XLR analog interconnects & power cables. Using Transparent Opus digital interconnects. What are your cablings? For AC power product I have Shunyata Hydra Triton/Typhon combo. However, my Naim Statement NAP S1 monoblock amps are plugged directly to the wall, which have been upgraded as well. Just wondering, those Studer tape recording machines that you acquired, are they also put into use? |
Would you care to mention the brand of XLR interconnects you are using into your amps? How long are they?My equipment supports the balanced line standard so the actual brand of cable doesn't affect the sound. I built some 30 foot cables using Mogami Neglex cable. I've used a variety of cables but they all sound the same. However, take away that bit about 'supports the balanced line standard' and that all goes out the window! FWIW a lot of the balanced line equipment I've seen in high end audio doesn't support the standard (also known as AES48) so YMMV depending on the equipment you use. |
@atmasphere Would you care to mention the brand of XLR interconnects you are using into your amps? How long are they? I have also been thinking of hiding my rack behind a wall. Some discussion posts on PRO balanced connections and long runs have made me seriously consider getting the rack out of the way. I likely need 20 - 25 feet of XLR to make that work. |
The ideal system will have balanced input mono amps right behind the speakers keeping the speaker wires as short as possible. Balanced ins and outs let you use long low level signal cables without ill effect. Now you can put the rack anywhere in the room you want unless you have a turntable in which case you want to get it as far away from the speakers as possible in a place where the bass is not amplified.^^ This. My system is in my living room, which is connected to the dining room. My equipment rack is actually in the dining room, completely out of the direct radiation of the speakers; my amps reside right by my speakers with a balanced connection driving them. I did a frequency sweep of the room and found that it favored a certain bass frequency, then went around the living and dining room with my sound pressure meter and found the area where the bass was at its least. That space is occupied by my equipment stand. Fortunately readily accessible from the living room and out of the way of any activities in the dining room. |
