It's just a matter of time before one makes a mistake with the volume, which can take out $$$ tweeters/drivers...That's why I always prefer physical knobs.
Eliminated my preamp with amazing results
I pulled my preamp out completely. The result's were not subtle.
For those who stream music only... I was going from my laptop... to my DAC...to my preamp...to my amp. My preamps ONLY function was volume control. Source control not needed.
I started using Audirvana recently which comes with it's own high quality 64 bit volume control that was far better than the potentiometer in my preamp. It dawned on me that I could control volume using Audirvana and plug my DAC directly into the amp and bypass the preamp altogether. (Roon and Jriver also have excellent volume controllers) Note: Audirvana has an app download on a tablet/phone so it acts like a remote control. I'm loving it!
This not only eliminated the preamps volume control but it took out ALL the electronics associated in a preamp including some cables. A FAR more direct route. However, you must use caution and make sure the volume is controlled properly in the software since the amp will be fed wide open volume.
Having experimented with 'passive' preamps in the past (McCormack TLC-1) I thought the sound would possibly lose dynamics and bass response would suffer. WRONG!
The results were...Shocking!! Immediately the extended depth of the image was noticeably deeper. Background darker. The highs are the best I've ever heard. Pristine. The bass was dynamic, tight and most of all 'textured' in a way I never heard before. As I stated earlier the results are NOT subtle!
This is an experiment that took a few minutes to set up and yielded the best performance improvement of ANY other tweak I've ever tried. Not anything like using a passive preamp.
Equipment used... Peachtree DAC-itx.
Preamps...McCormack TLC-1 and Melos tube preamp.
Amp is McCormack DNA 0.5
Understand that different components will have different interactions with each other. Your results may vary. However, IF you don't like it, it takes just a few minutes to put the preamp back in the system. Nothing to lose and lot's to gain. After hearing this, I will NEVER go back to using a preamp.
Good luck!
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LEEDH processor in the Lumin (s) or a Grimm Mu2 (impossible to get) are two safe bets for just digital w/ no pre amp. @gdaddy1 Here's another plea to loose the lap top.
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As others have mentioned, my experience validates that not one size fits all, and results are system dependent and subject to user preference. I previously used the volume control of my Weiss 202 DAC direct to a Music Reference RM9 MK2 amp with excellent results. However... with new amps (Quicksilver KT Mono's), volume control via the Weiss DAC sounded good (detailed and clean), but a bit on the lean and sterile side. Adding a DeHavilland Ultraverve 3 preamp took my system to a new level, adding body and fullness lacking when using the Weiss direct to amps. |
The experience detailed above not only emphasizes the synergistic impact of a preamp but also underscores that its effect extends beyond mere volume control, a misconception held by many audiogoners here. |
Did you ever try adding the DeHavilland Ultraverve 3 or some similar preamp when you were running the Weiss 202 DAC direct to a Music Reference RM9 MK2 amp? Is it possible you didn’t realize the level of “body and fullness” you were missing? |
@mitch2 I did not have the DeHavilland preamp when I owned the Music Reference amp, but did use the Music Reference RM9 MK2 both with and without a preamp and never felt like I was missing anything when the Weiss volume control was used sans preamp. |
If the volume control works properly there is no reason the speakers would explode. It should effectively attenuate the signal going to the speakers just as a preamp would. If you're running this CD player through a preamp then you have 2 volume controls in the chain which is unnecessarily redundant and possibly affecting the sound negatively. One way to find out. |
This brings up the question..."what is the function of a preamp?" My understanding is that it has 2 main functions. #1 is to control volume. #2 is allow selection of various source components. I didn't think the preamp was intended to 'add' anything to the signal and a good preamp does as little damage/degradation to the signal as possible. Adding gain does make the sound more lively but can amplify unwanted artifacts. For some, tube distortion is a positive thing. To each their own. For some, it appears the purchase of a preamp may be an unnecessary expense and may even improve the sound by removing it.
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A very good question, @gdaddy1 which you almost answer completely, but I’d say a little off. Besides source selection, a preamp’s jobs are:
Preamps used to have to contend with very low input signals, such as from a radio, so they often have way more gain than necessary. Amplifiers also had a variety of input impedance, and the phonograph, tape player or tuner may not have handled it well when connected directly. To summarize, preamps provide high gain, high input impedance and low output impedance. That’s the technical reasons for a preamp instead of say, a passive volume control. In the modern age, with relatively standard amplifier gains (20x) and high input impedances (25kOhms or higher) the preamp seems almost vestigial. |
As many who know of me here, I have been generally barking up the tree, how wonderful my totl single ended Luminous Audio passive has been. Recently, I acquired from my friend rawsonte ( negative comments keep to yourselves ), a diy FW F4. Obviously for those of you that know the F4, I needed to put into action, one of my many preamps with gain. The Usher P 307A, along with the F4 ( Tim did an outstanding job ), is pleasing me to such a level, my recorded music reproduction is outstanding. My best, MrD. |
I've been using this configuration (streamer instead of computer) for years with Chord DAVE DAC and now Lampizator GG3. The warnings about being careful are un-necessary as you are just applying the same care you usually apply to the pre-amp to the DAC. I've always been a minimalist and this is just a part of my strategy. Jerry |
@erik_squires nailed the purposes of a preamp and, while preamps may be vestigial, the impedance advantages they offer, not gain, are likely the reason for the improvements that some report hearing compared to driving their power amplifiers directly from a digital device. |
Harrison Labs 12 dB RCA Line Level Audio Attenuator Pair
Like erik_squires said you need to be cognizant of impedance matching. I believe tube amps like 10-20K volume pots while solid state like 50/100K. There are different kinds of passive pre’s and each can sound different. Digital, passives like Alps volume pot, Luminous Audio, and Light Speed. |
I’ve tried not using a pre s couple of times. First time with a Topping D70s dac running as a pre while trading a Creek integrated for my current preamp (SPL Elector). It was better -in some ways- than running the Creek as a pre into a power amp. But then got the Elector…no contest. Having a nice pre made everything come alive, open up and pull me into the music in ways I’d never imagined possible in my own system. But then I got an Okto Research dac 8 stereo which actually had a very nice preamp stage. When I tied that in directly, it kind of closed that gap a bit. In some ways more dynamic and fast, but still not quite as balanced, staged, refined and nuanced as with the pre. If I had a choice of amps to try, that could also change things. Synergy really goes such a long way! |
The absolute best non active setup I have ever heard was an Autoformer volume control (AVC). The best overall setup I have heard was the AVC fed by a Jung Diamond buffer. The big issue with almost any active or passive pre is the quality of the volume control. So much is lost with the typical potentiometer. |
Based on personal experience, I agree with Paul McGowen. Paul originally was a believer in the concept of the best preamp was no preamp at all. A decade ago, he then changed his mind about inserting a preamp in the system. I kept believing that the best preamp with no preamp until about a month ago. I then inserted a preamp between the DAC and the amplifier. What a positive difference it made. I cannot explain how introducing more circuitry into the signal path improves the sound quality. I’m absolutely clueless on that from a scientific basis.
I think you need to keep an open mind and try your system with and without a preamp. I will never go back to my previous position that no preamp is the best preamp |
I have owned multiple discrete resistor passive preamps/volume controls, two autoformer preamps/volume controls (Acoustic Energy Jay-Sho and Smart icOn 4Pro), and two DAC-based volume controls that adjusted volume by changing the reference voltage (Metrum Acoustics Adagio and Jade). Of all of those, when operated passively, only the autoformer volume controls preserved the dynamics, tone, and bass and to my ears did not sound thin. However, I tend to like the sound through discrete resistor volume controls so that is what I use, followed by a unity-gain buffer which preserves dynamics, tone, and bass. |
I've watched Pauls video where he explaines, at one time , loved no preamp. For many years! I can't help but imagine that Arnie came to Paul and said something like..." Hey bonehead...we manufacture electronics and YOU don't like preamps??" "What gives? It could be a big expansion of our product line." After so many years...POOF... just like that...now he loves preamps. Money can certainly change someone's perspective and as a manufacturer you'd be a fool not to make them yourself. Arnie woke him up to this reality. IMHO. |
Almost every major audio manufacturer designs and manufactures preamps, and PS Audio is no exception. Even a preamp only serves basic functions such as volume control and impedance matching and has no synergetic effect, it has historically been a main component in manufacturing. Criticizing Paul or Arnie for advocating the belief in the synergetic effect to boost sales is both illogical and unethical. Keep that kind of unhealthy criticism yourself, please. |
Engaging in a discussion about the use of preamps in audio systems and sharing personal experiences to support differing opinions is a healthy and constructive approach to exploring this contentious topic. Drawing from individual experiences adds depth and insight to the conversation, fostering a more comprehensive understanding of the subject matter. However, questioning a professional's motivations by attributing their opinions solely to business incentives can be seen as insulting and antagonistic, especially if there's no factual basis supporting such claims. It's important to engage in discussions or critiques while maintaining a respectful tone, acknowledging the possibility of differing perspectives or motivations. |
it is interesting to read opinions and experience of each others about such and such gear piece...Needed or not... But there can be only anecdotes here , because too many factors and specific needs and different gear levels experience are implied... I dont need a preamplifier with my integrated TOP Sansui alpha for sure driving my headphones only now ... But suppose i want to upgrade it with a TOP power amplifier because i had mew big speakers , i will need one....Or suppose i decide to buy a TOP integrated superior to the Sansui alpha ? Now suppose i upgraded this integrated superior to my Sansui alpha with a power amplifier top in the world , i will need a TOP preamplifier ( a tube Berning preamp ? ) ... This had no ends, add each one of us system and needs and all acoustic, electrical and mechanical parameters at play... There is no rule here AT ALL .... By the way as i said i bought a low cost tube preamplifier to add to my active speakers : total improvement and not small ...It is anecdotal as is anecdotal the possible improvement in some specific mechanical,electrical and acoustical embeddings workings system/house/room if we throw off the preamplifier ...some coupling are bad or useless or simply not synergetical etc ...
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If I am not mistaken, the analogue section of a DAC amplifies the decoded signal to max preamp level so that there are only two aspects that would warrant a separate preamp: a better analogue design capable of improving on the necessarily compromised analogue section of the DAC or a superior attenuator (assuming the DAC has one). In the latter instance a passive should beat any active preamp on distortion, in the former the solution might be a better DAC. I have yet to hear a concise argument why a separate preamp with additional cables and innate additional distortion should beat a high quality DAC. For most modern designs arguments about impedance mismatches are irrelevant. |
What is a high quality dac, used in some specific coupling parameters, not only electrical one but acoustical and mechanical one ? Dac vary a lot in price and properties... We all have different ears, needs, gear pieces and different room and different house electrical grid and noise level floor etc Even speakers vibrations and resonance here play a role etc ... Rules applied in a regulated environment... Living room are not a regulated environment nor the general gear design on the market is regulated with an enough refined level of standards to make possible such a rule as : no need for a preamplifier or the opposite rule , we all need a preamplifier... Is it not evident ? 😊
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@antigrunge2, read the previous posting. The experience detailed below not only emphasizes the synergistic impact of a preamp but also underscores that its effect extends beyond mere volume control. Again, Weiss 202 is a terrific DAC...
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OK, no more speculating on my part. Lets look at the real story of exactly what Paul said... For years he happily used a Direct stream DAC straight to amp because it sounded better without a preamp. Arnie had him listen to his 'Aesthetix Calypso' preamp. ($5000/7000) Paul agreed it was better. Paul then went home and plugged in the best preamp PS Audio made and it sound WORSE! Why??? Arnie told him the reason it was worse was " You're not using a good enough preamp". At that time they were using the Aesthetix in the main listening room. Arnie said..."Ya know, probably doesn't make sense to be using someone else preamp. Ya outta just make your own." Paul set out and developed(with the late Bascom King) the BHK series ($7000)to be as good as the Aesthetix. Paul summarized very clealy..." if you're not able to afford something as good as a BHK preamp($7000)DO NOT put a lesser preamp between the DAC and the amp. Go direct DAC to AMP" "it will sound BETTER". I don't interpret this as Paul being an advocate for preamps, I see it as being an advocate for high end preamps ONLY. If you don't have the money (which some people can't afford) then avoid the preamp and going direct will sound better. His words...not mine.
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Gowan is a seller so honest it could be and listening to him i consider him honest... But his advice made no sense at all when we spoke about ALL people needs, different gear at different price ... My low cost tube preamplifier do marvel for my active speakers... Gowan will say to me seriously if i dont buy his one , throw the low cost one in the trash bin ? If he said so he spoke as a seller in spite of common sense sorry... No he will never say that if he was seriously thinking ... We are not all people with unlimited budget ... Audiophile is not about "absolute sound" per se, it is about the way to use optimally what we have ... Anybody saying the opposite is in the top % of the population for money and probably ignore or underestimated acoustics and all the cheap way to optimize any system mechanicvally and electrically , with or without preamplification ... My system is low cost but the sound is not trash sound AT ALL ... Even if i cannot compare with high end and by high end for me an acoustic dedicated room is necessary by the way, i compare with system many times over my price and for the other system better than mine i dont bother so minimally good is my acoustic experience on all count... Even when they are honest, seller speak for their crowd not for all people... I prefer for advice acoustician and scientist who sell nothing ... Or users experiences ...
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@gdaddy1 @erik_squires IME preamps have 4 essential functions (this is limited to a line stage): 1) input selection 2) volume control 3) provide any needed gain (as will be the case if a tuner, phono section or consumer tape machine is used) 4) (and this is the least understood) reduce or eliminate artifacts from the interconnect cable between the amp and preamp Passive controls and TVCs are inherently incapable of point 4) above. Gdaddy, I hope you understand that running directly out of your DAC is in fact using an active line section. Its dedicated to the DAC of course. So this comment from your original post is not correct:
because you are not working with a passive control right now. Make no mistake- for a DAC to drive a power amp directly the signal must be amplified to meet Redbook standards and that is done with an analog circuit similar to what you find in a preamp line section. As you can see, active circuits work quite well!
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Agreed. It might be far better to allocate the money spent on a preamp and instead put it into a better DAC with a better volume control that may yield a much better quality sound. The DAC chips, jitter filters and proper volume controls should have a much bigger affect on the sound. |
i just bought a tube preamplifier for volume control and tube sound to compensate a bit for my active speakers amplification... Total success...
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If the DAC has an amplified signal, which I agree it does, why do I need to add a second line gain in the preamp? Isn't that redundant? All I need is to attenuate the signal DOWN not up. Controlling the volume DOWN using my passive TLC-1 adds NO line gain. |
Hmm, that is a real hard question… since it is based on two really big generalizations. The overall tonal balance of solid state and tube equipment hugely vary and overlap. The two have been moving towards neutral from opposite sides for a long time.
Most people add a tube preamp first as it may be more subtle but sets you up for a tube amp. Interesting I don’t know of many people that do tube amps first. So, I have to recommend a very high quality tube preamp first. A good tube amp will change the sound more. Generally (!) it will give you more natural and musical sound… but more natural means the bass will be more nuanced and real sounding with less artificial slam. Many folks like the “high end” really detailed, sparkily, sound with huge slam, as opposed to really musical / natural. So, preamp first… like what is happening… then amp. But you must carefully research sound qualities of each. I like Audio Research and Conrad Johnson the most. |
@gdaddy1 Obviously you don't :) Many DACs don't do as well as yours appears to. The reason I will always have a preamp is because I don't want my interconnect cables between the preamp and amp from coloring the sound. I've found in many cases this coloration can be more than the line stage of the preamp! If the DAC is unable to control the cables, then it makes sense to have a preamp that can. Most balanced line 'high end audio' products don't support the balanced line standard, so I expect there will be a plentiful market for preamps as a result. |
The closest reference I could find to Paul's narrative on this subject is a post he made six years ago. Essentially, his comments align with what has been underscored below, in contrast to what you have cited. Could you please provide the source? 1:35 ... after being shown that when a preamp is of a certain quality level, it definitely sounds better to have that preamp in a system than a straight DAC ... 3:27 ... so okay if you have a preamp of a certain quality then you can have much better realistic musical sound and Arnie Nudell was the first person that really showed that to me ...
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Here you go. This video is from from 4 years ago. I did cite that Paul said the preamp should be of a certain quality level. Specifically BHK series quality. But don't use a lesser quality or "you won't be happy"
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