Eliminated my preamp with amazing results

...and yet, one can take the stance that the least amount of 'inference' (as opposed to 'interference') between source and ears is preferable....🙄

"This is likely one of the ways 'tail-eating universes' are formed...."

I'm so tired of irresistible forces v. immovable objects.....*mock sigh*

Different means to the same ends.....

Tired, Yes.

Swayed? 

No.

I don't have experience with uber expensive active preamps. But I have owned a few up to the 6K price range and a good quality passive pre has beaten all comers so far.

I have a different  twist on this subject  and I mean no harm by my comments. In the past I listened  to the McCormack  line lots as I was thinking  about upgrading  to it. Within there line I personally  believe  you have there best amp in the .5 I wasn't  a fan of there passive  preamp at all. In fact my time with there passive  preamplifier  basically  turned me off on passive  preamplifier s. I knew a fellow who had a qed passive  as well that I didn't  care for as well so I never  bothers paying any attention  to them after that. I found all the McCormack  line to have a level of underlayment  of scratchness to the sound. The extreme  example  would be the radio in a 70s Chevy.  My first thought was as soon as you took there preamplifier out of the chain your system  likely  became way clearer. Not being a passive preamplifier  fan I would think you are very right that there will be more drive and not as boring  sounding. I have read many times on this thread to keep you preamplifier  around for awhile.  My thoughts are quite different  on that personally  I think if you want to compare  your system  with a preamplifier in or out of your system  you need to actually  try your system  with a preamplifier  borrow one from a friend  or audition  one from your hifi dealer.  I know that comes across  as a harsh statement but years ago I wish someone  would have told me my highly reviews speakers were actually  cow dung. They were the last of the system  upgrades I did. And my friends said to me afterwards congratulations  you finally bought a speaker. In fact after hours and hours and what I though at the time was lots of money  I had something  worth turning  on. So it is from that perspective  that I made that comment.  Now another observation  on volume  controls  in a preamplifier  I by far prefer a resistor  ladder over a pot. That being  said there are some very good pots in some preamplifier s. And also  there are other reasons for no preamplifier as well  in my bedroom  system  physical space comes to mind I wanted a system  with mono blocks right at the speaker and one source  only and a volume  control at the source.  I did this for awhile with an old McIntosh  tuner. Then I bought a refurbished  wadia  cd player wadia  back in the day build one of the finest digital  volume  controls in there cd players made and took the tuner out. After awhile I changed the amps  out for a set that had volume  controls on the amps. A set of line magnetic  124a  that are based on an old western electric  design  the wadia was narrow  and deep so I had to turn it sideways  on my dresser  so I bought another  old school top end cd player from krell and run that on the bedroom system.  Lol very over the top either way but I enjoy it and after the wreck and becoming  handicapped  there is very little  enjoyment  left in my life. Lol I went very over the top on systems  around the house I have to  hire people to move pieces for me. Respectfully if you want to compare  with and without a preamplifier  I think you should try it with a better preamplifier.  I have nothing but total belief  that your system  sounds better without the preamplifier  you have. Personally  I am happy  for you that you are finding  more enjoyment  out of your system  this way. 

Regards

@retiredfarmer 

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply! So sorry to hear of your accident. I truly wish you the best.

I think we're on the same page. Without experimentation how does one know if there system is as good as it can be or how far you can take it? These experiments (including subwoofers, room placement,  etc...) have given me a better understanding of meaningful changes. I always say..."how do you know you're doing it right unless you do it wrong?"  

I believe many people just plop down their money take it home and plug it in. Since They paid a lot of money surely it sounds amazing!  Especially subwoofers. Most people are clueless to the importance of phase, gain and crossover adjustments. Like buying a Ferrari and not realizing it's tires have low air pressure or poor alignment.

This recent experiment of DAC direct to amp has again opened my eyes to what's possible. In my case, for the preamps I've used,I think there is one common denominator that I can point to as being bad. Older or lower quality potentiometers are NOT good. Even in a passive unit like the TLC-1 I'm starting to believe the POT is causing a loss in resolution making it lose dynamic presence. DAC direct restored the missing resolution (thanks to Audirvana and it's ability for high quality volume control.) A higher quality preamp with a proper volume control should certainly be equal to OR better than. I agree with you and will do experiments with other preamps shortly. For now I'm done with my current preamps. They're out.

The other issue I'm struggling with is why are manufacturers adding all this gain? The DAC adds gain then goes to the preamp that has more gain and now you can't get the volume knob up over 9 o'clock. I don't see any reason that streaming music needs this. In fact, looking at the recent trends, manufacturers are making units that have less gain and go more direct DAC to the amp with just volume control. 

So, for anyone to suggest a system is better with a preamp have they tried something like the Lumin or Eversolo ? If not, then they don't really know what's possible. It's highly possible that money spent on these units INSTEAD of a preamp may yield a higher performance. Especially the advancements in DAC chips have a huge effect on the sound. 

Trying not to be bias but I will admit that the idea of running the signal through more electronics is not appealing to me. However, as you suggest, I will keep an open mind.

Best of luck in the new year!

Not just an argument for the digital world. Many years ago, I invested in a PS Audio 4.5/4.26 preamp, which had a "straightwire" function that disabled all amplification other than the phono stage. Essentially, it became a switching volume control. At the time, my sources were a very high-output moving coil cartridge and a CD player’s line-level output. No problem with volume levels.

Driving a pair of restored Quad ESL’s and Quad 2 monoblocks, it was exquisite. So bypassing the preamplification function is far from a new idea, but still makes sense only in certain contexts. I applaud the OP for thinking outside the cabinet in this case.

By the way, I still have that 4.6 sitting in a closet, and maybe it even still works, if somebody wants to buy it as-is for cheap. Check out Tom Norton's recently republished Stereophile review.

From a Valin review of the MSB Reference DAC.  I use this DAC in my system with no preamp.  I run my phono pre into its extra balanced input.  Get the same results as describe by the reviewer;

"I’ll let MSB explain its preamp module (and if you hear an echo of MBL’s LASA 2.0 White Paper it’s because, well, great minds think alike): “It has been MSB’s dream for many years to allow its ladder DACs to drive interconnects and amplifiers directly. By definition, a conventional preamp takes in the audio-industry standard signal and boosts it up to full volume for the sole purpose of turning it down again! MSB’s ladder DACs put out full volume, so no such gain is needed. The signal of the hybrid DACs only needs to be attenuated (turned down), and this is accomplished using MSB’s preamp module with its newly invented passive attenuator—a constant-impedance, passive volume control with no active circuitry in the analog path.”

This “minimum parts” preamplifying scheme, which eliminates the need for a costly, separate, signal-degrading component full of active circuits (and a costly signal-degrading interconnect to hook the DAC to the pre), is claimed to produce “extraordinary overall clarity.” And, boy, does it ever! And not just with digital signals. (I’m not sure I’ve heard better analog reproduction than what I get using the MSB’s passive analog attenuator, Lloyd Walker’s extraordinary phonostage, the Constellation Hercules II Stereo amplifier, Magico M3 loudspeakers with or without a pair of QSubs, and Lloyd’s Proscenium V turntable with Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge.)"

@skinzy 

Thanks for sharing this info.

This says it all... 

By definition, a conventional preamp takes in the audio-industry standard signal and boosts it up to full volume for the sole purpose of turning it down again! MSB’s ladder DACs put out full volume, so no such gain is needed. The signal of the hybrid DACs only needs to be attenuated (turned down), and this is accomplished using MSB’s preamp module with its newly invented passive attenuator—a constant-impedance, passive volume control with no active circuitry in the analog path.”

The other issue I'm struggling with is why are manufacturers adding all this gain? The DAC adds gain then goes to the preamp that has more gain and now you can't get the volume knob up over 9 o'clock. I don't see any reason that streaming music needs this. In fact, looking at the recent trends, manufacturers are making units that have less gain and go more direct DAC to the amp with just volume control. 

@gdaddy1 IMO Phillips and Sony made a stupid mistake when they set the Redbook spec to 2V output with digital gear, more than many amps need to overload. I think their reasoning must have been that once you hear digital, you'll never want to hear any other source. Obviously if that was the thinking, it was grossly incorrect.

A smarter thing to do would have been to allow for a lower level DAC output in addition to the regular line section that's built into all DACs and CD players. This way if you happen to have a phono, tuner, tape machine or other source (perhaps video) you could use a regular preamp and get maximum fidelity....

The reason I still use an active preamp, even though my DAC has a good volume control, is because I run balanced lines and the DAC doesn't support the balanced line standard even though it has balanced outputs. I run 30' cables and because my preamp supports the standard, those cables don't have to be expensive to sound right.

FWIW most 'balanced line' products you see aimed at the high end market do not support the standard. As a result you hear cable differences with them, which the balanced line system is supposed to eliminate!

My preamp set-up is a unity gain buffer, so I get the benefit of controlling the cables without adding gain. 

On the DAC side of things, some manufacturers are addressing the gain issue by including optional lower gain output settings, like with the Benchmark DAC3 HGC and the Tambaqui I recently had here.  My SMc DAC-2 only outputs 2V so does not require anything more than my unity gain set-up but also does not overwhelm the amplifier input.  The third DAC I have here outputs 4V, which means I use a slightly lower volume control setting to achieve the same sound level.

I have a related question - when my preamp broke I made the same discovery while it was away for repair (RME ADI DAC2 now goes directly into McIntosh 462 amp). Both components have balanced connections. I have discovered that my tube pre (ARC LS25 II) is not helping this chain, but is a good thing for the  phone that I am also running. If I use a switch that goes balanced in and preamp in, then balanced out to the power amp, how much will the sound be degraded. Does anyone know a switch made with good components etc. for balanced connections? Thanks a lot for your help.

@arhgef There are plenty of switches that can do the job.

Hi Atmasphere - I have found a lot of switches on line, but also reviews saying they were poorly implemented and would affect SQ. I wonder if someone has tried or can recommend a specific switch that is well made and will be transparent.

@arhgef Have you looked at Goldpoint? I'm more familiar with their attenuators, which are high quality and well regarded. Their switches should be good as well (as they should be for the price).

https://www.goldpt.com/sw2x.html

Thanks mspot. Those and maple tree audio seem to be high quality. Could put in a transformer for volume control and diy. Appreciate the tip. Amazing when you get into this how many small shops there are on the web doing really interesting things. 

Uptone Etherregen, Lhy Audio SW6 and/or SW10, SoTM, Waversa, Afterdark, Muon, Silent Angel. No lack of choice here.

much appreciate antirunge2. I will stop saying thanks (just think it) to not clog up the conversation.

As i said with the huge difference in price, design quality, needs etc there is no rule applicable to all case...

Removing a preamplifier or adding one CANNOT be a rule for all cases...

For me, i just receive new tubes for my low cost Douk preamplifier i coupled to my active speakers ( heavily modified) the difference before with low cost tube was evident for the better, it is now staggeringly better with these tubes...I will never return to self amplified speakers with no tube preamplification...As i will never use low cost active speakers with rear porthole without redesigning it for the best and the tweeter waveguide too .. 😁

In my case it was necessary to add a tube preamplifier ...

By the way my sound quality for the invested price amaze me so much it cannot be believed even by me listening to it ...😁

Acoustics, and electrical and mechanical workings controls embedded  devices are the key...

i pity anyone who pay more for not much better...

buy high-end gear yes if you can , but learn how to embed it seriously...If you miss optimizing your gear you will upgrade unnecessarily... Trust me on this...

😊

Am i deaf if i am wrong feeling no need to upgrade to a high end system ?

The truth is between a well optimized system at any price and a costlier one not optimized the difference if it exist is thinner than most people think ...Not worth the money in many case.... Then if you had just bought high end learn how to embed it ...

Could put in a transformer for volume control and diy.

I don't know if it matches your intentions, but if you need a switch with volume control, you could use a passive preamp (volume attenuator with input selector). Some high end brands are Goldpoint, Hattor, and Khozmo.

@charles7

The RME ADI-FS DAC has a volume control. It is a top-notch digital implementation; I believe the claim that the sound quality is the same no matter how low the volume setting.

1. I turned my preamp volume to near maximum, then raised the DAC volume control to my desired listening level.
2. Noted the dB level with a simple sound meter app in an Android device.
3. Removed the pre-amp and raised the DAC volume to match the dB level.

In my case, I preferred the sound with the Van Alstine Transcendence RB 10 pre-amp.

Thanks for sharing this. I just picked up an RME ADI-2 DAC FS. A friend has a bunch of big $$$ gear and was raving about it... talked about it replacing his expensive preamps. I first put it in with my Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp and thought "Holy Cow... that thing IS pretty good". He said I hadn’t really heard it until I put it direct to my Ayre VX-5 Twenty amp. Well, I am now... and... well... I’m not sure it’s as good. It’s certainly not a "revelation" such that it makes the Ayre KX-5 Twenty obviously obsolete / redundant. (Which is a clue to me). I am going to go back and forth, but I have a hunch the "stuff" / dynamics... whatever, that the Ayre KX-5 Twenty does, is maybe just worth having / keeping...and in the end maybe I prefer it. Notwithstanding that, the RME ADI-2 DAC FS is really friggin’ cool. It’s a special piece and I won’t be selling it, unless they come up with a better widget to replace it with. I have the AKM4493 version.

It’s also occurred to be to be very cautious about selling a good preamp. You never know what new toy is going to come down the pike that "I wish I’d kept that preamp" to use. I suspect I am always going to want to own a great preamp. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Ariel Brown at Ayre has referred to the preamp as being THE most important piece in the chain... 

I can attest to the use a really good preamp or don’t use one at all approach. I moved up to a Ayre Acoustics KX-5 Twenty preamp and it’s revealing everything I’d been missing before. And here’s the deal, as I’m just getting back into this hobby I haven’t even added a DAC yet, using a old Yamaha CDC-845 CD player feeding to the Ayre preamp then the preamp feeding to Phillips FA950 integrated amplifier with the volume left at the pegged position for it to temporarily act as an amplifer. One component at a time, rebuilt the Kappa 9’s and picked up a good preamp, next up some good amps, then a good DAC. I think the preamp is the most important component, it can easily be the most expensive component if you want a really good one. Controlling the volume is a huge challenge and only the best preamps can do it without losing anything in the signal. It’s why we always compensate by turning the volume up, it ’sounds’ better, but with a good preamp it’s very dynamic across the spectrum at the lower volume settings and that’s where it can be magical, you don’t need to blast it for it to sound good.

@gfguillot 

Controlling the volume is a huge challenge and only the best preamps can do it without losing anything in the signal. 

With all due respect... that's not true. Audirvana has an excellent volume control. (Roon also). No preamp needed. It doesn't lose resolution as you turn it down so it sounds good at lower volume.

So the question is... what exactly is a preamp doing that makes it sound so good?? Adding gain. Colors the sound and, in the process, adds dynamics. Perhaps a bit of the Fletcher/Munson curve for better low level performance. Perhaps add tubes for some 2nd harmonic distortion.

Tests have shown that people, in general, clearly prefer this sound.

However, it seems a bit counter intuitive. We want to get the highest resolution music stream source and components with the lowest possible distortion levels. We seem to want the music as it was mixed from the studio but then add gain/distortion/color back via the preamp. Two steps forward and one step back!

Using Audirvana without a preamp, If so desired, I could add the Fletcher/Munson curve via EQ without adding any gain or distortion and achieve a much cleaner end result that sounds GREAT at low levels. The added dynamic "Magic" is there with no added distortion. Clean with added headroom.

To be clear... no signal should get gain/boosted in EQ. It's opposite. From zero gain line the 'Curve' is created by pulling DOWN the midrange frequencies. Nothing gets 'boosted' above that line. The bass and treble are in a more extended curve WITHOUT adding gain. IMO a much better way to introduce the Fletcher/Munson curve than boosting gain distortion with a preamp. 

Boost it up with a preamp (which the signal DOESN'T need), adding distortion, then try to clean it up the best you can. No wonder a good preamp is so expensive. 

You did say you were using Audirvana, so disregard, yes, I can see how adding a preamp wouldn’t improve anything. For those of us using non streaming sources, like CD’s, vinyl, tape etc, we need a good preamp. A good preamp keeps the voltage constant on the volume control, which in turn the benefit for the improvement. A regular poteniometer in just about everything below the very high end out there varies the voltage. I don’t know about the ’gain’ being added, which you’re saying adds distortion. All I know is my Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp is a huge step up in improvement, detail, dynamics, sound stage and distortion levels. The high end market wouldn’t exist if it didn’t deliver and believe me it does, but it’s a pay to play hobby. No regrets getting a high end preamp for me.

Beyond a volume control and component switching a preamp can help with matching the impedance between the source components and the power amplifier for optimal signal transfer. I think the reason some folks report improvement with a separate preamp is their DAC preamp or power amp are not compatible. Likely the power amp has too low input impedance relative to the DAC  preamp.

Now if you can figure out how to eliminate the power amp you will have it made. But honestly it depends on the associated equipment if you can successfully eliminate the preamp. My take on this that the preamp is generally the most important component in ones system and inevitably will have the biggest impact on the end result.

Currently, I am not using my Luminous unit, which I have raved about on these pages for years. Purchasing a very fine, robustly built rawsonte F4, has forced me to use a preamp in my system. Of the many preamps I own, I am enjoying, so very much, the combination of the F4 with my Usher P307A. On occasion, I miss the remote volume, but the " presentation " is uncanny, to anything I have experienced before, through my system. The First Watt F4, might be the perfect amplifier. I now believe, how important the preamp is. I am not kidding. I have never experienced such dynamic range, such romantic precision, such attack, such force, such power, such immediacy, such rhythm, such details, such involvement. As this is a system ( F4 ) to keep, I will let go of my Luminous. Enjoy ! MrD.

Clearly the OP is smitten with going direct to amps.  That's great.  Most of our audio experiences / revelations are pretty individual.  Declaring that no preamp is the end all be all is just that.  Individual/specific/system etc......

I've tried it, and at least for me and my room, gear, experience, a very good pre-amp is an absolute crucial component.  No way am I going without one,  Knock yourself out with dac direct if that is what makes one happy - that's all that matters

I use a schiit sys