I split my preamp output between an active low pass crossover to an integrated amp that feeds the main woofers and subwoofer (<63hz) , then to an inline high pass (10nF silver mica cap) to the main tube amps that feed the midbass/tweeter. It has worked extremely well and has made the tube amps and midbass/tweeter modules sound notably clearer.
The active crossover is just a cheap Pyle automotive unit fed by a wall wart. It's fine below 80hz, but I didn't want it feeding my tube amps, which is why I opted for the inline filter using the silver mica caps for the high pass.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EdbW2F9jchcFrDFu8
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I started using an electronic crossover about 8 years ago and am not inclined to go back. I have used Marchand, Accuphase, and Beveridge electronic crossovers. The latter 2 being vintage pieces. Depending on your budget there are a lot of options out there.
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I use the SPL Crossover from Germany. It is an active crossover that allows the user to adjust the crossover point and slope to both the sub and the power amp. JL also makes an excellent active crossover.
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This is very good feedback.
Let me share a bit more.
My power amps are Nagra VPA 50 W. My speakers are Tidal Audio Amea (85/86 dB).
Both amps and speakers are excellent. I am trying to reduce the load on the speakers, to have more power available for the midrange and tweeters. 50 W is not really sufficient to drive the speakers, and I am trying to have to avoid to buy either new amps or speakers. Make the best of what I have. 😊
So a "High Pass" filter makes a lot of sense. Install a Y connection on pre-amp out to feed the single sub-woofer. Use the second phono out on the preamp to a High Pass Filter that will feed the Power amps.
Please let me more regarding what you have learned in doing this. Love folks sharing the brand of “high pass filter” they have installed successfully. Any concerns? Does this impact the pre-amp load positively or negatively??? Thank you!!!
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I built my own 80 Hz (second order) high pass filters from a few high-quality components.
DM me if you want the schematics and parts list. (My version is a bit complicated because I have a balanced connection between my preamp and my power amps but it can be simplified if you use single ended connections, essentially using only half the number of parts.)
My preamp has two outputs so I use one to go to the high pass filter and then on to the power amps (I happen to have two monoblocks) and the other output to the subwoofer (which obviously has a adjustable low pass filter already built in).
I guess you take some load off the power amp, but most importantly you are not forcing your main speakers to deal with frequencies below 80 Hz, where most main speaker drivers don’t shine.
I personally think this is a great way to "bi amp," by using the regular power amp (or amps) for the mid-bass and up, and using the built-in sub amplifier for the bass below 80 Hz (+/-).
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Check out Sublime Acoustic. They make two different levels of crossover unit, the K231 and the K235. Lovingly crafted in Northern California.
The one issue that some people complain about is that to change the crossover point, you need a small card they provide, with precision trimmed resistors on it. A different card for each frequency. You get two with the purchase, and the rest are just $10 each.
I have a set from 50 Hz to 80 Hz in 5 Hz increments. They are easy to change out, and crossover points are not something you want to A/B quickly, anyway; you need to listen a while with each choice in the system. I really don’t find the slow change-out to be an issue.
I find the units to be very reliable and transparent.
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JL audio CR1. The best. Check out the reviews.
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While what you propose is technically possible, if I were you, I would not go forward. It will probably not sound as good as before. Using a 80Hz crossover point will still send a substantial bass signal an octave lower (40Hz) to the bookshelf loudspeaker. It's not going to gain you much headroom. Use a steeper crossover and you run the risk of creating phase issues. Crossover at a higher frequency and you might degrade upper bass/lower midrange power region. Every practical loudspeaker design has a set of built-in compromises. I'm suggesting that those picked by Vimberg are a better set of compromises than you could improvise.
If you were just looking to add more deep bass to you system, then go with something like what REL offers that lets your existing loudspeaker run full range.
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I built my own. I ordered the circuit board from Elliott sound products and tracked down all the parts from different suppliers. I love it and would not go back
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You could use a miniDSP 2x4HD, or even a DDRC-24 if your system could benefit from DIRAC. Enjoy!
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I have a HPF from Marchand Electronics for that purpose. It's a 24db slope at 80hz. It's completely transparent and accomplishes what you want. My preamp has 3 outputs so I have a separate one for my sub.
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Not sure why you would use a Y connector in your set-up?
At a minimum an electronic crossover will have 2 inputs and 4 outputs. Every powered sub that I have seen have both a left and a right input. You would connect your preamp outputs to the crossover inputs, then 2 of the crossover outputs to the sub inputs and the other 2 crossovers outputs to your main amps.
This will give you a little more overall output SPL, but the 80Hz crossover point may still be too low to get the SPL you want.
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@dcaudio ...Simple, this: more than you'll ever need even later
I've the Pro version, but the LE is cheaper, less if you opt for open box or used.
Source noted offers free shipping on some items, turn-around is quick, they are helpful, the warranty gets extended....yes, the learning curve is steep as noted in one review....
But in the process you'll get an education in the subtle art of a crossover.
The D series eq's are nifty, a future upgrade when I can get a 'steal this' $ drain. ;)
Enjoy whichever you choose, J
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JL Audio CR-1. Very adjustable. Takes the low freq. load off your speakers and amp depending on where you cross it over at. Had mine for several years now and won't go back. Several audio friends have got themselves one after hearing how mine works and they got a chance to play around with the settings on it. Kinda pricey but if you can pick up one used (as I did) you'll be very happy. Easy to adjust and try different settings! Good listening to whatever you decide to pick up.
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The great thing about a unit like the Behringer mentioned above: it is an inexpensive way to test the concept with your system. And even if you later want to focus in on just what features you want in a less electronic device, you can resell the Behringer.
Most folks I know either go with the SPL also mentioned above or with MiniDSP, which can give you Dirac at the same time.
Related to the Sublime... so you must pick frequencies in advance... here are kits for DIY: Collections – Xkitz Electronics
From the inventor of the RiPol subwoofer: Ridtahler: Produkte
I have a crossover to split surround sound left and right into midrange and tweeter built into a multiplexer from Ralph Stens. He also has both a kit, or he will build for you, a separate crossover: Active Crossover AFW1 - RStAudio.de
Like I said, recommend getting something easy to test with and to resell first, and then pick what you really want at what level of sophistication / electronics.
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"If you were just looking to add more deep bass to you system, then go with something like what REL offers that lets your existing loudspeaker run full range."
I agree , I run my Studio Electric M4 full range with my REL's crossover set low and it integrates perfectly.
If i were to go with an external X over it would be one of high quality so as not to mess up the high pass to the main speaker.
If you like to crank it up and have small mains it's probably not a bad idea to implement a crossover but I would spend some $$$ on a JL, Marchand or SPL . You want one where you can adj the high pass and low pass freq and slope.
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I went with the Dayton Audio DSP-408, 4 RCA inputs, 8 outputs. Extreme flexibility in adjustments; x over, mixer, delay, and eq. I opted for the Bluetooth dongle, which allows adjustment at my listening position via an app. Or adjustment via laptop and USB. The x over has adjustment for high pass and low pass points, slopes up to 24db, polarity, and more. Eventually, I substituted the wall wart for a LPS with substantial improvement.
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Relieving the tube amps and the midbass drivers of the bottom octave or so should reduce distortion on both. Those large frequencies hog a lot of power from the amps and cause large excursions to the midbass drivers. If you can find out your amps input impedance, you could try a couple of inline filters (I used 10nF silver mica caps at a cost of < $20)
80hz-ish is a good option for two reasons...it keeps the sub playing in the range where it isn't directional, and it leaves just about the entire vocal range to the midbass driver.
If you don't already have a sub, you might consider using two subs to help break up room nodes. Most subs already have a built in low and high pass crossover, which could make it really simple to try.
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I have been intrigued about the Sublime products for a while. If I were to buy tomorrow, it’s what I would choose. Good to hear feedback from someone who owns it. I get you have to buy crossover cards, but they’re inexpensive, like $12, could be fun to experiment. And you get to stay in the analog environment.
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I'm using a MiniDSP SHD as an electronic crossover and also using DIRAC. Digital signals pass through to my Benchmark DAC3, and the sub signals go direct to my powered subs. I come from the pro audio world, so using electronic crossovers/DSP is SOP.
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I really like what I read. You are all amazing!!!
My first test to establish baseline is to get cutover frequency and volume correct. The speakers are flat from 100 Hz and up. My room is pretty large about 15 by 30 feet. With a 24 dB filter I am planning to start frequency setting very very low. 50 Hz. Basically, sub contribution at 100 Hz will be gone and be "bookshelf" only. I will use test tracks to get a sense of sound levels. 20, 30, 40, etc. Make comparison with sub on and off. Listen to digital recordings. Get to a balances frequency and level.
I like the idea of filtering low frequency out early, post DAC. Signal is already at a good level and get the low level out of pre and power.
Comments??
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Electronic crossover will be second step.
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