Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

Bill aka grannyring was gracious enough to build me a couple of more cables, another set of Double Helix RCA's and a SPDIF digital cable.  I now have Double Helix RCA's in both of my systems between DACs and either preamp or integrated amp, and the SPDIF digital in my main system. I also have a Double Helix USB cable that I have not used yet but will once I decide on streaming service/method. Very pleased with the natural sound of these cables. Thanks!

AND FINALLY...
- a 2 x 18 gauge Solid copper(Teflon) Neotech wire, replacing the 2 x 18 gauge Solid copper(AirLok) VH Audio  wire in the interconnects!!!

Yep - after the success with the power and speaker cables I just had to try it on the IC's - and very glad I did.:-)

Both the VH audio wire and the Neotech 18 gauge solid copper wires are stunning performers...
- dynamic, articulate, amazing clarity and details, larger than life Imaging and focused sound state with a reality seldom matched by TOTL cables.

So why was I glad I tried them? one word - smooooooth !!!

This was probably the most difficult audition I have ever undertaken...
- there was definitely "something" about these cables, but putting my finger on it was extremely difficult.

All of the usual metrics (listed above) seemed to swing back and forth
- dynamics were a little crisper on the Neotech
- details seemed a little clearer on the Vh Audio
- image was expansive and focused for both, but that seemed to change slightly from track to track

Even my best albums were not making the difference convincing, but there was something with the Neotech that kept pulling me back to them.

Finally, it took a listen to  Ricky Lee Jones an Diana Krall to nail it - WARMTH !!!

Warmth is one of those metrics that can also be interpreted as a lack of upper end detail - but that detail was still there but with a softer more realistic presentation.

Once I had locked into that presentation, all became clear
- the mid tones seemed softer, fuller and warmer,
- the highs, such as cymbals were less harsh and had a fullness to them,
- the bass lines were not louder, they just revealed a deeper texture
- and the vocal sibilance much more palatable.
- Basically - more "body" to the music across the board

Now I must stress these changes are small they took a while for me to nail them down, but now I have, it makes listening that much more pleasurable because I know what to listen for and it's now the music is a little less fatiguing, not that it was an issue with the VH Audio - it's just that much more more pleasant now. 

So this ends my Neotech Journey, maybe. The performance of the copper wire is now making me take a second look at their solid silver wire.
Which sorta completes the circle, because the first quality wire I used was 24 gauge Solid Silver from Neotech - go figure :-)

Hope you find the information helpful

Regards - Steve

Steve,

It would really be helpful if you could update your website with the “best of” builds for IC’s and PC’s.  It’s getting difficult to follow this thread with all the great experiments.  I appreciate all your hard work and others, l just don’t want to miss out on a great build!

Thank you for this update Steve. You have been working! Seems your result is somewhat system dependent. I find the VH wire more refined and not as up front sounding. I am very familiar with the Neotech wire as I have used it in builds (electronics) for many years. In my system I find it a tad forward and forced compared to VH. Now this is subtle thing and not day and night different.  I find the VH wire a tad more refined and less forward. Too forward sounding is a sensitive sonic area for me so my subjective taste kicks in here.  

I recently used the Neotech copper in my power cord and while I love it, it is more forward sounding and would not use it in my other power cords because of that.  System balance is good right now and I am afraid to mess with it. 

So many variables from system to system, room to room, person to person that I think we are now down to system synergies and preferences. I really don’t think one is the best option for all situations and systems.

I do like the Neotech silver & gold conductor very much, but they don’t offer it in a gauge I would want (18-20).

I don't know about the Neotech 18 ga solid core, but your description reminds me of short balanced cables I built a long time ago with Furutech FA-13S 16ga OFC solid core cable. The Cu is very maleable and the cables can be formed and stay where you put them. They had a somewhat sweet string sound.

@goose - all updates will be there next week - I was waiting for the upgrade to the IC's before making changes to the site update.

The content of the site is still relevant, it is just missing the Neotech wire. There are no changes to the fabrication approach, just the wire used for the signal or live conductors
   
Basically - I will  now be including the Neotech wire on my site, in addition to the VH Audio and Mundorf wires.

The only difference in this thread - I mentioned that I removed the insulation on the power and speaker cables.
I will not be covering this approach because of the related tarnish/oxidation issues, which I am finding are too difficult to overcome for the average DIYer.
I believe leaving the insulation in place is not too detrimental to overall system performance and I do not want to recommend an approach if it means that the wire has to be changed in a couple of years after it has turned green and impacting performance

As @grannyring just posted above, we are now talking about very small personal preferences and system synergies...
- On my system I prefer the Neotech
- On his system he prefers the VH Audio
- and if we were able to listen to each others systems we would probably agree on the choices we have each made for those systems.

There is very little difference in performance between these two wires - they are both excellent choices.

Perhaps combining them throughout the system might be the right choice for your system.

@oldears - agreed, Furutech does make some very good solid core wires. I recently heard from a fellow DIYer about how pleased he was when he upgraded his power cables with a 12 gauge Furutech solid core  wire.

There are just so many wires - and so little time :-)

Hope that helps - Steve

@ williewonka @ grannyring

Outstanding information and evaluations!

Wig

Quick DIY Helix Interconnects Update!

Guys,

I have been experimenting with different wiring for over 4 months now and can report the cabling I am using and offer you 2 options:

Option 1: If you are looking for a tad more resolution over your copper cabling, I recommend removing the copper and adding 2 runs of Zenwave Audio 26 Ga (Neotech Teflon solid OCC silver/gold).

Option 2: If you are wanting even more resolution without sacrificing a thinning of sound with all silver and love the beauty of copper (I do), I recommend 1 run of Zenwave Audio 26 Ga silver/gold and 1 run of Zenwave Audio 26 Ga solid OCC pure silver wire.

I also tried up to 4 runs of wires per interconnect and couldn’t really discern any differences and after corresponding with several wire distributors and cable builders and the theme is that 2 runs of wiring is all that is really needed and 24 gauge was the type with minimal skin effect; 26 gauge got me close to that…

Wig

Yes indeed two is all you need, but 18-20 gauge would be better if they had it to try. Even when I tried the Mundorf solid core silver/gold the 18 gauge was better than the thinner gauges. Crazy expensive however. Zenwave is a cable seller, not DIY wire seller? Right?

Have you tried the VH silver 18 gauge in your ICs? I find it rather perfect. Two runs on the positive.

Sounds like you were able to purchase some wire from Zenwave?

@ grannyring

I used the VH OCC 18 Ga in my IC for over 2 months but it became too forward sounding and noticed that images are more solid with copper when compared directly but it’s a balance for sure because I was initially using all OCC silver.

Currently using OCC silver in Dac and CD Transport PC with great results...

Zenwave Audio is a cable seller and does sell cabling for DIY purposes and sells very good built cabling as well.

Wig : )

Agree that all silver VH is too much in a system. I like it as the digital source cable only, USB or SPDIF etc...

I have always liked Neotech silver/gold stranded and would love to try the solid core in Teflon. 

I'd like to build a Double Double Helix cable.  I'll probably go with 18 awg Airlok for the hot and 16 awg mil spec from TFA for the return.  The only thing bothering me is how the hot and return can move in relation to each other.  That can't be a good thing, can it? 

I saw someone, maybe Grannyring, mention using cotton braid over the hot run to fill the gap.  What sizes and how many layers are necessary to fill the gap with the wire gauges I have settled on?
Am I overthinking it?  Is the cotton braid even necessary?

Yes the cotton is smart.  7mm outer diameter works good. 5mm internal diameter. 

Yes the cotton is smart.  7mm outer diameter works good. 5mm internal diameter.

Great, thank you.  I'll grab a bunch of extra in case I have to build it up as it will depend on what the ID of my return coil is.

Loving the discussion here, props to Steve for bringing this to the community. I'm running a full loom of DIY helix cables in my system, Mundorf silver gold for interconnect and VH copper for power and speaker.

A few question for the experts here since my system has changed and I need to convert my RCA interconnects to XLRs: 
1. One of my interconnects I'm running a double run of the 18ga Mundorf silver cold, and it sounds very good. When I convert them to XLRs, should I double the number of signal wires to 4 runs (2 runs per signal terminal) since XLR has 2 signals instead of 1? or should I just use each of the 18ga in the double run for the 2 signals?

2. Is my current double run of 18ga effectively the same as using the 15ga of the same wire?

3. When switching to XLR, should I switch to 15ga wires to have the same effective gauge of the original double run 18ga per signal? or would 15ga be too thick for interconnects?

Not the best articulation but hopefully you guys can shed some light,  thanks.

@divertiti - Unfortunately I am unable to answer your questions because I have no XLR cables in my system

I think that perhaps @wig  and @grannyring can provide better input on this matter.

Or perhaps there is someone else that can provide more concrete feedback?

Regards - Steve

@divertiti,

The idea here is to build two individual XLR cables into one. If you do that, then this is the build.

* Two twisted pairs with each individual twisted pair going to pins 2 and 3. Be careful not to mix up the wires when soldering to pins 2 and 3. Use your multimeter continuity setting and double check as you build.

* Two TFA 16 gauge conductors on the ground .... pin 1.

This is not about total gauge. It is about making two ICs into one. So no, one 15 gauge conductor is not the same or as good as the two 18 gauge twisted pairs!

Also, thicker gauge reaches a point of diminishing returns once you get lower than 16 gauge in ICs.

Thanks for the input and confirmation @grannyring Do the ground conductors that make the helix shape need to be also twisted pair or should it be two helix just slotted into each other? If the ground conductors need to be made into twisted pairs first, i imagine it'd be hard to make it into a helix after. Also my current RCA already have the ground helix, would be easier to add a helix than to try to straighten it first then make it into a twisted pair.

Lastly would it be a huge compromise on SQ if I only doubled up on the signal wires and left the ground as single run?

The helix ground on your xlr is never a twisted pair, but always a coiled helix. It is not a huge sonic degrade if you just use one conductor as the helix. However, two sound a tad better. 

If using two wires on the helix, then just coil them up side by side on your drill at the same time.  Very easy to do.  I have been able to uncoil the TFA wire once coiled.  Took my time and did a good job of getting it straight again. 

I would use a 4-4.5 to 1 ratio on the helix to pin 2&3 conductors if just using one conductor. 

WRT - "I have been able to uncoil the TFA wire once coiled."

An easy approach - I simply place the coil back on a rod and then pull on the wire straight - effectively reversing the winding process.

That way the strands of the Mil-spec wire does not get knotted up with any extra twists.

Regards - Steve

That’s what I did! Thanks for be more precise Steve. 

Thanks gents, a couple of more questions if you don't mind....one of my two pairs of interconnect that I'd like to convert uses barewire (no PTFE) inside cotton sleeve, two questions:
1. If I were to make the two runs into a single double run of twisted pair, should I do it with the cotton sleeve around each conductor so they only meet at the ends or should I twist them together in bare wire form so they're touching the entire length?
2. Can I mix the PTFE version and barewire + cotton sleeve version of the same wire in the same XLR cable?

@divertiti - Personally - I would not mix the bare wire and PTFE wire.

Mainly because I like to have everything "the same"

But if you think about it, the signal in the PTFE wire could be subject to the noise generated by the insulation. The bare wire (in cotton?) would not be subject to the same "level" of noise

But we are talking tiny tiny TINY details here - inaudible? - perhaps.

How much of an issue would this be? - it really depends how sensitive your ears are, but unless you tried both approaches you would not know.

It can also be a bit of a mind game, in which case it depends on how concerned you are about getting the absolute best sound.

After all - we all suffer different levels of ANAL :-)

I did have one set of IC’s with two bare wires twisted together inside a single cotton sleeve and they sounded exceptional. I think that would be my choice in this case.

Hope that helps - Steve

Thanks @grannyring and @williewonka, it helps a ton, I will repurpose my cotton and bare wire. Do you know if it's possible to make an AES EBU cable? I know it needs to be 110ohm and have special shielding requirements. 

@divertiti - what connector will the cable be plugged into?

- Balanced XLR style
- Single ended BNC connectors

Thanks

@williewonka, it will be a balanced XLR connector

@divertiti - unfortunately this is definitely uncharted territory for me.

But since you are making a Helix XLR cable, would it be possible to try that cable as the AES EBU cable to see if it works?

Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to explore every possible use for the Helix Geometry.

I found this basic explanation of high frequency transmission problems online...

At high frequencies (people use to say RF for Radio Frequencies) all cables behave (or misbehave) as transmission lines.

Get a long pipe and talk into it, that’s a transmission line. If it is long enough, you’ll hear some echo coming back from the other end. That’s a problem.

Whenever you send some stuff in a transmission line it will always travel at a certain velocity (the speed of sound in the case of you talking in a pipe, the speed of light modulo impedance, dielectric constant etc, in a cable).

So, if your signal is fast enough, that this propagation effects are not negligible anymore, you’ll say it’s a transmission line, and you have to treat it like this. It is not something difficult, just a part of your design.

For instance take a SATA cable. If you send some low frequency signals in it, it’s a cable. If you send 3 billion bits per second in it, it’s a transmission line, since there are several bits in the cable at any given time. Of course you’ll want to minimize echoes if you wanna use that to transmit some useful information.

So if you put a resistor at the end of the cable, which has a certain value, you will get optimal damping and optimal transfer of power : all the power that flows in the transmission line will end up in the resistor instead of bouncing back to the source and messing everything. The value of this resistor is your characteristic transmission line impedance. It can be calculated (depending on geometry etc) or it can be measured.

I do know that a Helix Interconnect cable used for analogue purposes can also be used as a SPDIF cable without using a 75 Ohm RCA plug and it performs extremely well - i.e. better than most purpose built 75 Ohm cables.
- Perhaps it’s the Helix Geometry that overcomes some issue in a standard 75 Ohm cable

The Helix Geometry is very different from that of a "standard cable" - so does it suffer from the same reflection issues - or is the highest frequency it can handle without any issues, high enough to handle those supported by a 110 ohm AES EBU connection without any problems?

I would try it - What’s the worst that can happen? - it sounds bad?

But then again - it might not :-)

If you do try it, please post your observations. I like to understand the limitations of the Helix Geometry as well as its good points.

Sorry I could not be of more help - Steve

@williewonka Thanks to your post that sparked my curiosity, I tried my spare helix interconnect using Mundorf single run barewire in cotton and absolute harmony as Spidif cable between my streamer and DAC ($4.5k each), and it performed great. In fact I had some Nordost Valhalla 2 AES XLR cable on hand and I had both plugged in to switch back and forth on the inputs. I couldn't tell the difference after quick switching between the two input from the listening spot. 

I'm sold! Now the question is do you use double run for Spdif or keep it single run? Also is there an optimal length for spdif cables?

@divertiti - Thanks for verifying the Helix IC as a SPDIF - it’s been a while since I used SPDIF, so knowing it works with great components is very much appreciated.

WRT..

Now the question is do you use double run for Spdif or keep it single run?

Good question - I’ve been asked that question many times i.e. before the Double shotgun version was tried, and I always said "a single run"

But after the success of the Double Shotgun - perhaps two would work better?

But then again we are dealing with digital signal that represents 0’s and 1’s , which I believe is not as critical as analogue cables, so perhaps two wires is overkill - I would stick with one.

The other factor is my old SPDIF did not use the same solid copper or solid silver wire that are currently in use, so it was probably not as "capable" from an analogue perspective, but it still performed very nicely as a SPDIF interconnect.

@Grannyring is using a twisted pair for D+ and D- on his USB cable

Also is there an optimal length for spdif cables?

I assume you are asking about HELIX geometry SPDIF cables?

There probably is, but because the signal is not "reflecting" to the same extent as a cable having a more standard geometry I would "questimate" that it is probably quite long, much longer than I would care to wind a helix coil for. :-)

I have tried a 2 meter cable and could not tell any difference between it and a 1 meter cable.

My final SPDIF cable was a 1/2 meter long and I observed the same great results as with the 1 and 2 meter cables.

Hope that helps

Regards - Steve

.

Double is always better. Double on both positive and helix. It just is. Is it day and night better? No. Just a tad better and if you want the most out of your build, then go for it! If you are going through the work and effort, then make it the best you can with the conductors you have chosen.

I would not recommend using bare copper wire in cotton for the positive conductors. They will oxidize over time, no doubt about it. Silver or silver/gold is fine!  Food for thought.

@divertiti - one last thing you might want to consider if you are planning on using bare wire...

Based on an ongoing experiment I am conducting...
- I used bare copper wire on the signal wire of my speaker cables
- I enclosed the bare wire inside a clear PVC tube
- I sealed the tube at each end with a small piece of Heat Shrink 
- I placed a piece of bare wire on my audio stand for comparison
- because the PVC tube is crystal clear I can observe the brightness of the wire

My observations to date... 
- the wire in the tube is still very bright after almost 2 months
- the wire on the audio stand is definitely turning a lot darker

So if you use bare wire (copper or silver) you might want to consider inserting it inside a Teflon tube and seal it at both ends with a piece of heat shrink (with adhesive)  in order to slow the oxidation process.

I suggest using the Teflon tube because it is much thinner, so you can still opt to use the cotton tube/sleeve to dampen vibration if desired.

Regards - Steve

All really interesting ideas gents. @grannyring When you say double is always better, have you tested that idea on digital cables with the same results?

Steve, I'm using only Mundorf silver gold barewire, have you seen those oxidize like copper? Grannyring seems to think silver gold is okay, so just want to make sure

Yes double on the digital yields the exact same improvements.  More scale, dynamics, ease and a tad more presence.  Have fun! 

If anyone orders anything from Parts Connexion in Canada, make sure you select something other than USPS.  I placed two orders there for some Absolute Harmony RCAs.  The first one shipped USPS and I still don't have it 18 days later.  A few days later I placed another order, but selected UPS.  I got that order in about three days!

Yes always UPS Express! Always.  USPS Is an absolute mess right now.  30 days to go 300 miles and so many more bad recent experiences. Just an utter and complete mess! 

@divertiti - RE:

Steve, I’m using only Mundorf silver gold barewire, have you seen those oxidize like copper?

OK - so as well as having a piece of bare copper wire, I also have a piece of the Mundorf Silver/gold wire sitting on my audio stand and after about 6 months it has almost turned Black.

However - I just remembered my "old wire" box and I have solid silver wire in there that is over 4 years old, inside a Teflon tube and it is does not show any signs of tarnishing.

So if it were me - I would insert the bare wire into a Teflon tube and seal it at both ends with a piece of heat shrink

Hope that helps - Steve

Just want to say thanks for all the information and building technics presented in this thread. I am much appreciative.
I ordered some wire to get started and want to let people know there is a supplier for mil-spec wire in CA who's prices are very good. Check him out here https://www.apexjr.com/wire.html 
Steve is easy to deal with.
Cheers,
Chris

https://www.apexjr.com/wire.html
Sorry, link didn't work in first post.
Chris

Thanks for the link. Too bad not cryo treated, but the prices are great! We should do a group purchase and get it cryo treated 🤓.  TFA is always out it seems and slow shipping speed.  Parts Connextion in CA ships overnight for $15! TFA charges twice that and it takes 10-14 days to get here.  Sometimes longer. 

Those a great prices - many thanks for the link - I’ll update my web site :-)

This will make the Helix cables much more affordable ! - When I first started this - the 10 gauge wire was actually $1.30/ft - these prices are better than that.

They have some great colour choices also :-)

As for Cryo treating
- I’m not sure it adds anything when used with the Helix cables.
- It’s probably the silver plating that provides the most benefit

I know a couple of guys in eastern Europe had to make do with non-cryo silver plated wires and they still reported great results.

Has anyone out there had a more positive experience using Cryo’d wire and parts compared to non-cryo - i.e. on the Helix cables?

Cheers - Steve

Why double up with the DS method, when you can QUADRUPLE!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Interconnect-Cable-RCA-Custom-Hi-End/284139528202?hash=item422809200a:g:Sc8AAOSw8ilf9dsh

Cryo treating most all parts is a nice plus.  It certainly does help somics in my humble opinion.  I may buy a spool and have it cryo treated. Not crazy expensive to do really. 

Today’s interesting experience/observations...

As per my post above - I now have the Neotech UP-OCC as the live/signal wires across my entire system - that is except for my power distribution center. The live wires in it was 4 stands of 18 Mudorf Solid silver/gold in cotton sleeve, approximately 10" long

I changed the silver wire to 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper on Monday.

The sound was basically OK, but if I moved slightly off center the image went horribly wrong and sounded like it was bouncing off side walls.

Since I had observed this anomaly during the burn-in process with another pair of interconnects, I let the burn-in continue.

So this evening I listened to my system and the anomaly had corrected itself nicely, as expected, but the system now has a significantly larger image and the bass goes even deeper. The balance front to back is very nice and very detailed and artist placement is very precise. These improvements were easily heard because it now appears that the listner is even more immersed in the image, so it was not something that I really had to listen intently for.

My surprise was due to the fact the amount of wire replaced in this exercise was a mere 10", i.e. out of a power "corridor" that is some 20 ft long in total. And it was a very good quality wire, not just a piece of extension cord from Home Depot

The other thing that changed was the connection to the Outlets on the back of the power distribution center. It was previously just bare wire into the clamp on the outlet. But this time I soldered small spade connectors to the UP_OCC copper

This just goes to show - even the smallest changes can yield some very gratifying results.

So, was it the wire, or the spades?

I’ve promoted the use of spades on my power corridor for a long time.

For me, this confirms that using them can be very beneficial

The spades are nothing special, just spade connectors from my local Car Parts or hardware store - $20 for 65 pieces

The quest continues - even though I told my wife - "That’s it" :-)

Regards - Steve

Fascinating information, Steve.

I have a good bit of Neotech wire that just arrived along with my spades. Now I’m waiting on my mil-spec wire to arrive. Can’t wait to get started.

Cheers,
Chris

I have settled on an AC cable design, where I use Duelund silver 3 mm cable for the hot wire (I know with its silk/oil insulation it is not officially approved for high voltage) and 2 runs of Jantzen copper/silver 12 awg runs for neutral and one run for ground. Plugs are Viborg copper/gold. Burning in with FryCorder II for 72 hours. I use this for the amplifier. Sound is very rich with increased texture on all notes - as if each tone would shimmer in many more colors. Also very natural sounding, no stress.

Chris at VH Audio marks the "pull end" of his wire with tape when he cuts a length off.  Do you guys usually build your cables with the pull end at the source end of your ICs or do you put it at the other end?  Has anyone ever even tested this?  Chris simply said that directionality is subjective and did not say if one orientation is better than the other.  What's your experience?  I'm specifically referring to the UniCrystal OCC Airlok wire.

@ketchup 
I think it doesn’t matter as long as your orientation for both (+ & - / grd) is the same.
That’s how I do it 👍🏼

I have just been made aware of this vendor for the Mil-spec wire (NOT Cryo’d) for the power cables - their prices seem pretty good

12 AWG, Mil-Spec Wire - Eastern Voltage Research

Unfortunately they do not sell the 16 gauge wire for the Interconnect neutral wire, but they do have 14 gauge

I have tried a 14 gauge wire (from TFA) on the interconnect, but just a single conductor - I had to use a 3mm rod to wind the coil in order to fit the coil into the housing of the RCA plug - it was a very snug fit, so I do not recommend it

I have not tried this vendor, so I have no knowledge of their reputation, delivery etc... but they support all major methods of payment, including PayPal

Regards - Steve

@massagevermont shared this site for mill spec 12 gauge and all the other sizes.   I just purchased 200 feet of the 12 gauge for the best price I have seen.  

01-05-2021 4:36pmhttps://www.apexjr.com/wire.html 
Sorry, link didn't work in first post.
Chris

I have just been made aware of this vendor for the Mil-spec wire (NOT Cryo’d) for the power cables - their prices seem pretty good

12 AWG, Mil-Spec Wire - Eastern Voltage Research

I wonder how this stuff would work for some star-quad speaker cables...  Seems cheap enough to find out.