Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

Wonder if this is the same exact wire? Jeff at Sonic Craft usually has very competitive pricing! I am now using his Neotech 16 gauge solid core copper in Teflon as my outer Helix conductor for my USB cable. Will try it for ICs soon. Always used this wire (14 gauge) for my power supply needs when building tube gear. Like it a lot.


USB cables made using Helix design principles are simply outstanding.

I ordered a LessLoss c-Marc power cable and will compare it to my Helix cable (4 runs VH 18g a, neutral and ground with 3 and 2 runs Duelung 16 ga).
The LessLoss has implemented a helix geometry at multiple levels, so this will be interesting.

Why did you use Duelund 16 gauge in the power cord? Not sure that recipe delivers all that the Helix design offers sonically.  

@ Steve (williewonka) : ?????

Your last post:
OK - Just did some math on the Neotech 12 gauge wire (Teflon)
- Sonic Craft - $7.66 US/foot
- Hifi Collective - £4.39+vat/Meter

where did you see these prices from Hi-Fi Collective???

when I look up their page I find the following:

SOCT-12: AWG 12, 1 strand of 2mm wire, diameters, inner: 2mm, outer: 3.4mm, 300V, 30A rated.
PRICE (1 metre): £21.76+vat+p&p
Steve, I will purchase from you, if you get these good rates 😉👍🏼

@mawe - the price you show is correct.

My sincere apologies to everyone

I clicked on the wrong link by mistake

Taking exchange rate into account the UK price translates to $28.28 / meter, which does in fact make Sonic Craft the cheaper of the two.

Thanks for picking that up

Regards - Steve

NEOTECH Wire Update

A fellow DIYer has just made me aware of this company
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/

NOTE: the pricing on this site is Euro's - but I have convert to UK pounds below to keep comparisons simple

They have the 12 gauge Neotech Ultra Pure 7N Onho Continuous Cast (UP-OCC). wire - but with PVC insulation priced at  £17.34 / meter including VAT.
i.e. More affordable than the Teflon version.

However the dielectric constant of PVC is 4.0 (as opposed to Teflon's 2.1)

But If you are planning on using the cotton or silk sleeve in place of the the insulation it would be a significantly cheaper option.

The DIYer also raised concerns about using cotton sleeve, since he is in Europe where the voltage is 230v.

I recommended that he use this slightly larger Teflon tube.
https://www.takefiveaudio.com/products/473-ptfe-10-tubing/

 The tube would have air between a large portion of the surface of the wire wire and the side of the Teflon tube, unlike a molded insulation.

The combined Dielectric constant (i.e. air + teflon) would probably be in the range of 1.5-1.6, which is much better than a molded Teflon insulation and only marginally worse than cotton or silk.

Since I have not used this wire I cannot confirm that the PVC wire is (performance wise) identical to the Teflon version, but it is UP-OCC.

Regards - Steve
 
 

Me again :-)

I’ve just tried a couple of things

1. a 14 gauge Silver Plated Mil-spec wire as the neutral on an interconnect and the results were very similar to the double 16 gauge. But I had to use a 1/8" rod, which provided only just enough space to get the 2 x 18 gauge VH audio wires to pass through the coil
2. I tried the Classic Harmony RCA on my best cable. While this is the entry level RCA plug from KLE Innovations, its performance was quite surprising, i.e. compared to the Absolute Harmony that it replaced.

Based on how the performance of the Classic Harmony compared to the Absolute harmony, I believe it is probably as good, if not slightly better than the Silver Harmony.

It left me very confused ..
- why would KLE Innovations introduce a product that performs this good, since it appears to compete with the Copper and Silver Harmony RCA’s

Compared to the Absolute Harmony it lacked just a little in the following areas...

1. Dynamics - not quite as crisp
2. Image size was a tad smaller and lacked a little precision i.e. not as focused
3. Clarity & details were a little less accurate

It might be a good, affordable solution for Digital SPDIF cables ? Unfortunately, all of my streaming is accomplished view Ethernet, so I cannot verify that

It is definitely targeted to a more budget conscious buyer - BUT, it definitely will not disappoint. It’s a very good RCA plug.

Regards - Steve

Jeff at Sonic Craft told me this a year ago.  He only stocks the Classic and Absolute stating the others are a waste of time to carry. I trust his ears as he knows what he is talking about. 

" ... The DIYer also raised concerns about using cotton sleeve, since he is in Europe where the voltage is 230v. ,,,"

Steve - I lifted this from one of your previous posts.

I realize there is a sort of cage around it, but I was wondering about the safety of the cotton with 120V.  

@maxima95 - until recently, I too was concerned about this aspect.

Here is my thought process
We hear a lot from cable manufacturers about the safety aspect of cables, but home audio cables are "normally" fairly stationary.

But if you are selling a cable you cannot be certain of the use it will be put too, so you design in LOTS of additional "protection"
e.g. Furutech cable is perhaps one of the safest cables around - it can withstand many harsh chemicals - just the thing you need for home audio :-)

DH Labs realized this when they designed a line of bulk cable for home audio use - it used great copper like Furutech, but it was not shielded and the outer sleeve was not chemical resistant

There are people out there that has a maze of cables around their system and are not too careful in how they handle them. The result is cable can get worn and break

WRT MY helix cables
- I only touch/remove any of my cables a few times a year
- they are not stepped on or abused
- I always hold the plug when removing them - not the cable
- they do not have liquids poured on them
- they are not subject to extreme temperatures

So I have become more comfortable with using Cotton, especially on the live wire, because it is inside a "cage".
- The wires around it are protected with Teflon.
- The live wire cannot be touched by people under "normal" operation.
- The only "threat" with cotton is if someone were to spill water on them and I am careful not to have water around my entire system.

Is there a possibility that the wire will heat up and set fire to the cotton insulation ?
- well that should not happen under normal operating conditions because the solid core wire I use is capable of handling up to 34 amps
- that’s 19 amps over the "standard" 15 amp breaker trip current.
- So the breaker should trip long before the wire gets hot enough to ignite the cotton.

So fast forward to my later post which mentions using Teflon tube - the main reason for this was to provide an alternative to cotton for people that might be concerned about using cotton.

WRT the difference between the Dielectric Constant values of the two sleeves
- I believe the difference in sound quality between the two would be distinguishable if you listened intently.
- So either is a good choice

I leave it up to the individual to use whichever insulation method suits their own needs in order to achieve the performance they feel is safe.

@wig has reported excellent results using the 12 gauge solid core without removing the Teflon insulation, so that is a third very safe option.

So to answer your question
- It is probably more prudent to adopt the insulation that you are comfortable with
- perhaps leave the Teflon Insulation in place
- it will not keep you awake at night
- the sound quality will still be excellent

The choice is yours...
- Cotton
- Teflon tube
- or - Leave the Teflon insulation in place

We all have limits to the things we are willing to try in this crazy hobby

BTW - I do understand you concerns - I check my cables frequently during the burn-in process for changes in temperature.. They have always remained at room temperature.

I hope that helps

Regards - Steve

Thank you for the explanation and alternatives Steve.

@grannyring - I think Jeff has it right.

Initially, I was asked to review each of the plugs as they were released. But after testing each of the plugs I always thought the Copper Harmony and the Pure harmony were not really needed. Then they came out with the Classic and I was quite puzzled..

The Classic Harmony I have burning in at this moment played some unusual tricks in the first 30 hours (i.e. compared to the rest of the lineup).

Initially they sounded very nice. Then they became quite "in your face" and a bit heavy in the bottom end between 10-20 hours, but they are now settling down to that nice neutral performance that I had been expecting from a Harmony RCA

I’ll give them a week to burn in and report back. But right now, they seem to be a little less detailed and not as focused as the Absolute Harmony.

For other readers I would like to clarify that the differences between each of the harmony plug models is "marginal’ in the context of general listening. But in a controlled audition with select tracks, the improvements in "fine details" between each model are quite discernible.

But compared to the competition, they are an extremely good RCA plug.

Regards - Steve

UPDATE- RE: the Classic RCA.

After about 100 hours there seemed to be no more improvements, but then the wires had been used for some weeks, so it was just the RCA’s and solder that needed burn-in

While this is a very capable RCA plug i.e. compared to the competition from other brands, it does not provide the same level of performance as the Pure harmony and Absolute harmony models.

Based on my previous auditions of the Silver harmony and Copper Harmony - I believe the performance to be between the Copper Harmony and the Silver harmony i.e. ON MY CABLES...
- bass was as deep, but a little less detailed & textured
- the top end was a little less crisp and lacked some fine details
- image was not quite as large and lost a little of the focus
- dynamics were a little slower - they lacked that crispness of the Absolute Harmony
- overall clarity was very good
- Venue acoustics, while present, lost a little of their sparkle
- there was no change in tonal quality - very neutral

I would definitely use the Classic RCA on my A/V system for either Analogue or Digital IC’s, or on a good second/office system.

If you have not tried the Harmony range, the Classic Harmony RCA will give you a very good indication of the sound you can achieve with the other RCA’s in the Harmony lineup

Hope you find this useful - Steve

.

I have been building ICs, USB and digital cables with the VH Audio 18 gauge solid core SILVER Airlock wire in place of copper and the difference is not small. In my system, and others of high quality, the sonic gains are substantial.

The realism and micro detail retrieval is substantially improved. My system is playing music with a new level of realism that I have never heard before. All of the full bodied bloom of copper is still there, but even more refined and resolving. I have not liked one single brand or type of silver conductor in my builds until I tried this VH Audio conductor. All the silver wire I had tried in the past just sounded too thin or lean. NOT the case with the 18 gauge VH Audio Silver solid core.

My system’s mids and highs are as smooth as butter. I cannot overstate how amazing the Double Helix builds are using VH Audio silver. Yes, I am talking about the double. I find this conductor better sonically
than the Mundorf silver/gold. The Mundorf lacks the bottom end heft and weight while sounding not as smooth and extended on top. The realism of the VH silver is also better.

Now, the cost of this silver conductor has almost doubled in price over the last month as silver is up. ($39 foot) So these are expensive builds, but the cables are outperforming $6000-$8000 branded cables in systems.

I have not heard any cable, at any price, sound this wonderful. I am sharing this for those looking for the best possible cabling for their high end system. I have only built ICs, digital cables and USB cables thus far. Speaker cables would be far too expensive for me with this wire. The silver wire was only used on the USB data wires and the positive runs in digital and IC cables. The 16 gauge, silver plated, stranded copper wire from Take Five Audio was used for the USB power ground and negative runs on the digital and IC cables.

Use WBT 4% silver solder and be sure to cover the twisted pair of 18 gauge VH silver used on the positive runs of the ICs and digital cables with two layers of unbleached pure cotton tubing to damp unwanted vibrations. I use 4-5mm cotton tubing and then a second 7mm covering. I also use KLE Absolute Harmony plugs for my RCA builds. On the double helix I use a 4 to 1 length ratio of TFA wire to VH Audio wire. For example, if building a 3 foot set of Double Helix ICs, then you would need two 12 foot lengths of the TFA wire in addition to the two 4 foot lengths of the VH Audio wire.

Grannyring built me an RCA Double Silver Helix Digital that makes my system so listenable and fatigue-free, I don’t want to leave the room.

I can attribute this by not only the nature of the Helix design, but the quality components used and build procedure described above.

It’s not "only" the usual descriptive of improvements wrought by it.

The entire soundscape from top to bottom is devoid of any digital artifact (jitter) which, in turn, allows music to emerge unscathed, in a quiet, smooth, natural, flowing form.

This, in turn, improves the frequency range from the lowest registers to the extreme highs and everything between.

I also had a very robust, Helix Power Cable made by member Aniwolfe, that I use for the main line coming into my Inakustik conditioner that works wonders eliminating AC noise issues, can’t speak highly enough about it.

Power Cable Update.

So today I just completed the last Power Cable upgrade - to the Neotech OCC 12 gauge solid copper.

So basically from the outlet I have...
- 1 x 11ft extension cables with 12 gauge Neotech wire in cotton insulation, that has a dual outlet in a box on the end of it
- 1 x 12 gauge Neotech OCC 12 gauge with cotton insulation into my amp
- 1 x 12 gauge Neotech  OCC 12 gauge with PVC insulation into my Power Distribution box

From the distribution box I have
- 1 x 18 gauge solid silver VH Audio to my Phono stage
- 1 x 18 gauge solid silver VH Audio to my Bluesound Node 2i

The neutral and ground wires are all 12 gauge Silver plated Mil-soec

The change from the last report is - I now use bare Neotech wire with a PVC insulation...
- I purchased the Neotech with Teflon insulation and stripped the insulation
- The PVC insulation is simply clear plastic pipe from the hardware store - cost me $1.35 CDN for 5 ft - much cheeper than Teflon tube

The tube is about 5 mm thick with an internal diameter of 3mm

I did try setting it alight to ensure it was not a fire hazard - it resisted the test nicely.

Bottom line - the system again instantly responded with an even better and more spacious image - pretty much 3D, including the perception of height.

I would assume teflon would have the same effect - but at around 30 times the price - ouch!

I think the advantage here is the amount of Air around the bare wire.

The biggest advantage of using the PVC pipe - the live wire is now better  protected from accidental spills

I think I'll change the other PC's that have cotton insulation - just to be safe :-)

Regards - Steve

@grannyring - congrats on the upgrade to VH Audio Solid silver. Sounds like it was worth the effort and expense.

I've used a single strand of the VH Audio 18 gauge for the live conductor in the Power Cables to the source components - today I heard their benefit when I upgraded my last power cable - what an improvement!

 @rx8man - glad to hear you too are having a very positive Helix experience.

The Helix excitement just keeps building - thanks to everyone for your efforts and courage for making the Leap to "The Helix"

And a special thanks to those members that are building the cables for other people - much appreciated.

Regards - Steve.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/TRADEIN-87550.html    parts connextion has a dual 16g  duelund  interconnect

@grannyring - re:...

Speaker cables would be far too expensive for me with this wire.

Since my experience replacing the VH Audio with the Neotech copper in my power cables has been so positive, I’m wondering if the same improvements could be achieved with the speaker cables.

i.e. the latest power able upgrade replaced 4 x 18 gauge VH Audio with Air Lok insulation with 1 x 12 gauge Neotech OCC Copper bare inside a PVC tube - the results are stunning

Would you have any thoughts as to which of the following options might be the most beneficial?

#1 - Two strands of 18 gauge Neotech £6.92+vat+p&p per meter
- basically replacing the same gauge Vh Audio wire

#2 - One strand of 14 gauge Neotech £13.86+vat+p&p per meter
- basically increasing the gauge in a single wire to double that of the 2 x 18 gauge.

#3 - One strand of 12 gauge Neotech £21.76+vat+p&p - I think this is overkill for speaker cables, but the improved performance of my power cable was quite compelling

Note: - I included prices prices just as a comparison

@rx8man - re:...

Helix Power Cable made by member Aniwolfe, that I use for the main line coming into my Inakustik conditioner that works wonders eliminating AC noise issues,

What power cables do you currently have from the power conditioner to source components?

Have you tried the switching them with the Helix cable?

Just curious ?

UPDATE FOR OTHER READERS...

Here is a link to the PVC tube I used to insulate the Live wire on the latest power cable upgrade...
https://www.homedepot.com/p/UDP-1-8-in-I-D-x-3-16-in-O-D-x-100-ft-Clear-Vinyl-Tubing-with-Dispenser-...

Whilst the temperature range (i.e. up to 160 vs. 200 Celsius) may not be up to Teflon standards, at those temperatures the tube just becomes very pliable and unsuitable for use as a pressure/water hose.

As a test - I applied considerably more heat using one of those hand gas lighters that have the "blue flame" - the tube did ignite briefly after quite a long period of time withstanding the intense heat and then went out as soon as I took the flame away.

So for me, this pipe makes a very good insulator for Power and speaker cables i.e. if you want to use bare wire for the signal/live wires. At least it WILL NOT present any issues if someone spills coffee on the cable as it would if cotton sleeve is the insulator :-)

Also - here's the link for the Neotech PVC insulated wire that is cheaper than the Teflon
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/neotech/neotech-up-occ-hook-up-chassis-wire-page.htm

Regards - Steve

Main Helix PC into: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-full-review-inakustik-s-ac-3500p-power-station-and-ls-400... 

All other PC's: http://madscientist-audio.com/presta/power-cords/71-power-cord-with-power-purifier.html

Steve I am thinking your Neotech power cord experience has much more to do with gauge and voltage carried than the sonic qualities of the two brands of wire. I think if the VH Audio wire was offered in 12 gauge would likely sound even better than Neotech. I just don’t think combining 18 gauge conductors for a power cord is ideal. Your results point to that in my opinion.

Now I happen to think 14 and 12 gauge conductors would be better for speaker cables than 18 gauge. Even if you combine two 18 gauge conductors I feel the single 12 gauge conductor would be better....within the same brand. This is based on my listening tests with several well touted brands of conductors. No matter the outer insulation the heavier gauge within each brand always sounded better with speaker cables. Improved fullness, bass drive, dynamics and midrange bloom. I would go with the 12 gauge 🤓 for moderate to high power amps with less efficient or moderately efficient speakers. Highly efficient speakers coupled with a low watt tube amp work fine with 16 or 14 gauge provided the length is under say 10 feet.

Will the 12 or 14 gauge Neotech wire sound better than two 18 gauge VH Audio conductors in your speaker cables? Really don’t know until you try. While the Neotech gauge is more to my liking will that positive outweigh the positive sonic qualities of the VH wire? Don’t know as I have not compared. I would not use less than two VH Audio 18 gauge conductors in your speaker cables however.

Question for you. Neotech sells the solid core copper wire in PVC for $2 per foot less than Teflon. Since it is the same internal wire and you are stripping off the insulation, it would seem smart to buy the PVC version of the Neotech wire. Perhaps you shared this, but I may have missed this.

Thank you so much for this power cord discovery!

Steve, my mistake as I noticed you already mentioned the Neotech PVC option. Sorry! 

@grannyring - thanks for the thoughts - as always very useful.

Initially my thought was to try 2 x 18 gauge because it would be a direct comparison of the two brands of wires

BUT - After giving this more thought, I think I am going to try a 2 x 16 gauge Neotech AND, as a separate test -  a single strand of 14 Gauge Neotech - both bare wire inside the PVC tube that I used in the power cable.

I’m thinking both these approaches will probably perform better than 2 x 18 gauge Vh Audio wires

Will get back to you once I get the wire(s)

Cheers

@rx8man - thanks for the update on your power cables

So I was wondering if you had tried replacing the Helic PC with one of the Mad Scientist cables to connect the power conditioner to the wall outlet and use the Helix PC for either a source or your amp.

If you have tried this what were your observations -preferences?

I ask because based on the various things I have tried, having the Helix Power cables connected to a component (vs. the power conditioner) has generally provided better sound.

But there are many things at play in a system, so this may not be the case in your system

Regards - Steve

Steve, the Inakustik has a 20amp IEC, this limits swapping, unless I get an adapter.

@rx8man - I didn't realize that - that just makes it "messy" - no [problem :-)

Enjoy - Steve

Power Cable UPDATE: So today’s venture replaced the Cotton Sleeve on the power cable to my amp with the PVC tube mentioned above.

The cable had been completely burned in
- I removed one of the Spade connectors
- inserted the wire into the tube
- placed heat shrink with adhesive at both ends to "seal" the tube
- reattached spade connector and the mains connectors

The improvements, although quite small, were immediately discernible.
- more detailed venue acoustics
- improved clarity, textures and harmonics
- more precise image focus and artist placement

Orchestral tracks sound more spacious and focused and Pipe Organ music (in a church venue) exhibited an improved "perception of height".

I believe there is a downside to being able to reproduce music to this level of detail...
- The "engineered" venue acoustics on (some) tracks that were recorded in the studio have a tendency to now sound a bit "fake" - there is just too much echo/reverberations to be believable

However, the tracks recorded at the venue sound amazingly lifelike. e.g. there is more separation between the the various sections of the Orchestra in width and depth.

Considering the price of this upgrade - About $1.30 - I would say it was worth it. :-)

It would seem the key is to reduce the amount of surface area of the wire that touches the insulation. The Dielectric Constant (Dk) of cotton is around 1.3 and Air is around 1.1

I think the PVC tube is now my insulation of choice when using bare wire for the conductor. Teflon would probably have the same effect, but is considerably more expensive in comparison

I think I have probably squeezed the last ounce of performance out of my copper power cables - I have no plans to try the same thing with the Neutral wire, it would be far to complicated a venture.

Speaker cables are up next for the exact same treatment..
- I’ve decided to try a single 14 gauge bare Neotech UP-OCC wire
- inside the same PVC tube

Will keep you all posted in a couple of weeks

Regards Steve

Speaker Cable Update. Bare 14 gauge Neotech Solid wire inside PVC tube...

First - I would NOT recommend the PVC tube for any cable over 6-7ft long, simply because the PVC is quite supple and "grippy", which makes inserting the bare wire quite troublesome. I believe the Teflon tube would not suffer the same issue and would probably be just as effective..My cables are around 9ft long and it took some effort to get the wire in the tube.

So, right from the get-go the 14 gauge Neotech (bare wire) in the PVC tube sounded better than the 2 x 18 gauge Vh Audio wire...
- Bigger image
- improved Artist separation and focus - more space around artists
- slightly faster dynamics
- improved clarity
- improved details

That lasted for about 12 hours and then things started to get a little weird...
The image started going a little crazy, with some instruments darting around the image. Also, standing 4ft to the right of center, the central voice appeared to come from the side wall but not from reflections off the wall. But in the listening position it was perfect.

With the VH Audio wire, standing in the same position the artist was always in the center.

So today was day4 (approaching 100 hours) of the burn-in process and I am glad to report the rather flakey image issues have been "cured" and I think things will improve further.

With this wire I now have a full appreciation of what @grannyring refers to as :the "wall of sound".
- the image extends in every dimension and very "3D like"
- improved Artist separation and focus - really is like "being there"
- dynamics are the most realistic yet experienced
- improved clarity - again, like being there
- improved details - you’ll definitely hear new things on pretty much every track.
- speakers? - what speakers? - totally invisible!

The only concern I have with going the bare wire route is whether the bare copper will tarnish/corrode inside the PVC (or even Teflon) tubing over time and impact sound quality.
I did "seal" each end with a 1" piece of heat shrink (with adhesive on the inside) in an attempt to at least slow down the oxidizing process.

Perhaps leaving the Teflon insulation in place might prove to be the best route?
- the question is how much does the Teflon (molded onto the wire) impact sound quality?

I’ll let you know if I ever have to replace the bare wire :-)

BTW - finally fully experiencing that "wall of sound", makes this upgrade well worth the cost and effort. It is immense, enveloping and very compelling.

Until the next upgrade :-)

Regards - Steve.

Great stuff! My guess is the 12 gauge with molded Teflon jacket in place would sound even better on your speaker cables.  I use 2-10 gauge conductors per leg in my speakers cables as an FYI. Sounded better than a single 10 gauge per leg.  These are not Helix cables however. I use Helix jumpers up to my mids and highs. 

Wonder if Chris at VH Audio would consider making his solid core Airlock copper in a 12 gauge thickness? That would be the ticket in my estimation. I also think the bare copper will oxidize over time, but how much and to what sonic impact? Not sure. 

WRT bare wire - the one advantage of the PVC tube is it is perfectly clear, so I can see any oxidation. The wire is very bright right now and easily seen.

I'm wondering if coating the wire with a very thin coat varnish or urethane would work?

Anyone know what the coating is on transformer wire? 
- That is very thin and probably lowers the impact of insulation

Cheers - Steve.

Anticables Web:
"How durable is the red coating?

The red coating will not wear off under normal conditions. The red coating can be scraped off with a sharp knife edge, yet a sharp knife would also cut any typical cable as well.

The great thing about the red coating is it also keeps oxygen off the copper through the life of the cables, preventing oxidation and sonic degradation. This is something no typical speaker cable can do. Cut open a 5 year old set of typical cables, and don’t be surprised if the copper looks discolored like an old penny."

And here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anticables-speaker-wire-have-no-plastic-jacket-insulation

@rx8man - thanks for the post - the enamel "insulation" has  Dielectric Constant of around 3.2, which is higher than Teflon. But now I am left wondering if the thickness of the insulation plays a significant role.

Like @stringreen  posted - It would be nice if Chris at VH Audio made his wire in 12 or 14  gage

Perhaps if we all ask for it?

Cheers - Steve

 

My listening experience showed too much insulation had a tendency to "closed the sound in" although it would be "quiet"

A thin seal coating on the copper would be preferable AND keeping conductors separated in air, yet in a spiral-type configuration.

I’ll leave all of the technical stuff to you in the know, what I will say is that after just 5-6 hours of listening to a set of RCA’s that Bill (grannyring) built for me with this technology and his talents and I am convinced

They will go up a few more notches after burn-in =D

Wig

I was recently asked...

Do you consider these cables shielded? For example, could the ICs be used on a phono stage and keep noise out?

And here was my response...
---------------------------------
I've had some good and one bad result in this area. I think it depends on the many factors that can come into play in an audio system e.g.

• grounding of components
• for example, NAIM only grounds the neutral on their source components - not the amps
• their approach often leads to hum when non-Naim source components are used
• grounding the neutral side of the amp circuit will fix this issue - by making a grounding lead 
• grounding of the turntable arm
• if done right there should be no problem, but many times it is arm grounding is incomplete
• Cartridge selection
• some cartridges can be more prone to RFI
• e.g. Grace cartridges can produce hum on some Rega TT's
• wiring of the arm
• I use a one piece harness from the cartridge to the phono stage
• some TT's has a joint to a larger gauge cable at the arm anchor point
• some have phono sockets at the rear of the turntable
• Any of the above can be problematic
• the phono stage
• good ones mitigate a lot of RFI issues
• phono stages with grounded power supplies are often the best choice
• tidy cable positioning
• poor positioning will exacerbate the situation

These are the reasons I tend not to recommend Helix for TT use. Trying to debug a hum is always problematic
Having said that - A friend with an all tube system experienced terrible hum

Other DIYers have reported excellent results, but their gear was top quality and they appreciated the need for cable positioning - some with tube and some with solid state

I generally recommend using 24 gauge wire for the signal and 20 gauge Mil-Spec for the neutral with a 4:1 or even 5:1 ratio of neutral to signal wire length - the reason for such light gauge is that thinner gauge wires are less responsive to RFI

The helix acts like a faraday cage for some protection, but it is not a "fully screened" solution

As an example - I tried a standard IC (16 gauge Duelund signal and 2 x 16 gauge mil-spec) in my system and held the IC against a Helix power cables in my clenched fist - with the amp on Phono and turned up to full volume I did hearjust a little hum

By comparison - you could hear hum at normal volumes on my friends all tube system with the cables separated

So it is not as simple as i would like in order to recommend using Helix for TT's

It's more a case of try a regular Helix IC and if that works go for the lighter gauge version
---------------------------------------

So, under the "right conditions" The helix Interconnect will provide exceptional performance between a turntable and phono stage.

Unfortunately I cannot say exactly what those conditions are, but if you already have a pair of IC's, try connecting them between your TT and phono stage to see if there is any hum - the "conditions" in your system may be "just perfect"

NOTE: If your Turntable has RCA socket outputs on the rear and there is some RFI interference in the form of HUM or you can hear a radio channel - all is not lost...
- TT's that have RCA Sockets generally also have a ground wire terminal that should be connected to the ground terminal on your phono stage.
- one might think the neutral side of the RCA is connected to that ground wire terminal, but there is a case for not connecting them, so leaving them disconnected is the best option
- I found a simple solution to this problem on the web - Simply attach a small piece of wire from the ground terminal around the neutral side of each RCA socket - apparently it works very well

BTW - for best grounding results from TT to phono stage I ensure a  Spade or Ring connectors makes the connection - NOT bare wire

 Regards - Steve

Nice update and info Steve! Thank you. 

Speaker Cable Update - with just over 250 hours on the cables they are settling down nicely

There were some moments where things got "Twilight Zone" strange, but they did not last

The improvement I was most intrigued by was  the perception of three dimensional space, which has improved to the point where reverberations, apparently from overhead is making the perception of being in the concert hall that much more realistic.

Dynamics, clarity and details are improved over the 14 gauge Neotech wire and with the improved imaging and focus adds to the perceived reality.

But I do find the amount of bass did not change from the 2 x 18 gauge solid copper from VH Audio. However, the amount of texture within low frequencies on certain tracks has improved considerably, which made the bass sound a little "lighter", but more enjoyable

I am/will monitor the brightness of the copper wire inside the PVC tubing. I am hoping that sealing each end of the tube will prove to be an effective deterrent to the oxidizing process.

Hopefully by the time the bare copper has oxidized, an alternative to Teflon Insulation  will be available - perhaps foamed Teflon ???

On the positive side - the move by cable companies to the more advanced insulation types is trickling down to the parts providers, so there is a real possibility of foamed Teflon becoming more  of a standard in the near future.

With that - I will sign off :-)

Regards - Steve

@facten - welcome to the Helix Club :-)

As @wig said - give them a couple of hundred hours burn-in for a stable sound - they will still improve a little after that - generally a bit more in the area of fine details.

They can exhibit some strange behavior between 20-60 hours, but that will subside.

Power and speaker cables also have a very positive impact - but the IC's are a nice place to start.

Regards - Steve

@williewonka

Thanks Steve. I have 40 hours on them at this point , thus far all good

@facten

When you hit the 75-100 hour mark, you will notice the sound stage opening up  with more depth and layering.

After 125-200 hours, your staging is beyond the boundaries of your loudspeakers, layering and depth much more tangible with details rendered clean, extended and very natural sounding.

Your system will continue to improve with the addition of more Helix cables...

Wig😁

I replaced the 5 runs of VH Audio 18 gauge on the live conductor for the power cord used on my conditioner. I replaced with two runs of the Neotech 12 gauge solid core copper in Teflon. I left the Teflon in place. Yes indeed this was a significant upgrade in sound. No doubt. Wonderful.

I will do the same on the power cord to my SS Coda amplifier next. I figure the VH Audio is fine on the dac and streamer so I will leave those alone. I will use two runs of Neotech 12 gauge in Teflon for the live conductor in the amp’s power cord.

Wow.  The more I listen, the more impressed I am. More at ease, better sense of control, larger stage, better focus, greater bottom end solidity.  

@grannyring 

That's awesome and exactly what I noticed, everything has a sense of fluidity and effortless flow...

Wig : )

This is the best read on Audiogon. Great information. I wish i could build some of these cables but i no longer have steady hands.

@wig + @grannyring - Glad you are still finding improvements :-)

POWER CABLE UPDATE...

So I had some Neotech 12 gauge left over and decided to upgrade the live conductor on one of my A/V power cables.

NOTE: I did NOT remove the insulation of the Neotech wire as I have with other PC’s

But before installing it in my A/V system, I figured I would try it out on my Bluesound Node 2i streamer - which originally had a PC with a 1 x 18 gauge Solid Silver wire from VH Audio.

One again, the 12 gauge Neotech outperformed the VH Audio wire...
- larger more spacious and accurate image
- improved bass detail and texture
- improved clarity and details

It seems there was no impact to clarity and details, so for safety and longevity I will be using the Neotech wire WITH its Teflon Insulation from now on.

What about the existing cables with bare Neotech wire?
- the copper seems to be holding up very well on the cables where I have removed the insulation
- I keep a piece of bare wire on my audio stand to see how it tarnishes
- my cables have a clear PVC tube over the bare wire so I can see it
- the bare wire on the audio stand has started to darken
- the bare wire inside the tube is still very bright

It seems that provided you seal the ends of the tube using heat-shrink (with adhesive) it will slow the oxidizing process.

But since it appears to make very little difference in sound quality - leave the Teflon in place :-)

Regards

I forgot to mention - the PC (above) was ultimately for my 200 watt A/V system subwoofer.

Now - the internal 200 watt amp grabs the voice coil and controls the 8" long throw speaker cone the way it was designed to do, delivering crisp, clean textured bass tones and LFE’s.

The improvement was most noticeable :-)

Regards - Steve

I also replaced the 5 runs of VH Audio 18 gauge on the live conductor for the power cord used on my conditioner with two runs of the Neotech 12 gauge solid core copper in Teflon.

I dry-crimped the copper spade ends, then soldered where the wire pokes through the barrel ends, added small heat-shrink over those, for solid, secure and sealed effects.

My audible results mirror Grannyring, Williewonka & Wig exactly📢😉📢