@duffyd,
I’m using the ETI pure copper spades with heavy gauge speaker wires.
This had been a recommendation from Nick at Hificollective.uk for the Duelund wire.
I’m totally happy with these spades, best “sounding” connectors. Better than the hollowed types and better than Furutech spades. |
Did anybody compare the Gold vs Silver plated version of the SonarQuest power plugs?
And if so, what had been the sonic differences?
I have only the Silver version and it is a very detailed/clear sounding plug. I wonder if the Gold version may be a tad smoother without loosing too much of the clarity. |
@ketchup
I think it doesn’t matter as long as your orientation for both (+ & - / grd) is the same.
That’s how I do it 👍🏼 |
@ Bruno,
an alternative to the Milspec wire would be the Jantzen Audio 2x2,5sqmm or 3x 1,3sqmm copper silverplated PTFE wire, which you can order from audiophonics.fr.
There you can order as well the Neotech solid core OCC 18AWG in PTFE. Much more cost effective than the VH Audio wire.
I am a Long Time User of VH Audio wires, mainly the solid silver in cotton for interconnects.
But shipping cost, Tax and VAT make them really expensive when landed at your place.
This is the reason, why I swopped to the french site. Their prices are the most attractive in Europe.
For a power cord I think the Neotech is as good as the VH Audio wire, specially in PCs as the solid PTFE insulation is more robust.
I put the 3 runs 18AWG Neotech in a 6mmx0,6 Teflon tube (ordered from Conrad) and this into a 10mm PVC tube to keep a certain space to the outer neutral coil.
The coiling obviously keeps best with solid core wires. Therefore you can use for the neutral as well some solid core wires. For ground wire I used standard yellow/Green 1,0 or 1,5sqmm solid core wire from the Home Depot market.
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Hello,
I have followed this thread and have been using VH Audio wire since 15+ years, DIY ICs, CheLa speaker cables and some PCs.
Recently I tried the Helix design for a PC, first with some cheap “normal” pvc insulated 2.5sqmm copper wire to test it.
I finally did the PC for my AlloUSBridge Signature with the following parts:
Hot= 2x 1.2mm dia. bare silver claded solid copper in a PTFE tube sleeve with inner dia of 2.0mm, light twisted and than sleeved into a PTFE tube with 6mm inner dia.
Neutral= 2 runs of the same wire in the same PTFE sleeve coiled with a Ground wire as per Helix design recommendation. PC connectors are SonarQuest pure silver.
This design gives as low as possible dielectric as the surface of the wire is barely touching the insulation and main insulation is air.
This is a very cost effective approach with a little more work to slide the bare wire into the PTFE sleeves, but it sounds incredibly open, stress free and fast.
My experiences with PTFE insulated OCC copper compared to the VH Audio Silver in cotton had always been, that the Neotech OCC wire sounded not as open as the cotton insulated wire. And the Airlock insulation is not far off either.
However, for IC my findings always been, that max wire gauge should be 24AWG. If one wants, one can double it, so 2x 24 AWG for hot and ground. Recently testet a Single 22 AWG wire and was not impressed with the results. Bass and mid/highs had been good, but somehow soundstage became smaller.
I wonder, why you all use 18AWG for the hot signal in ICs? Has anybody tried instead of 2x 18 AWG a smaller 2x 24 AWG Helix IC?
Best..
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@ aniwolfe & williewonka
thx a lot for your feedback on SonarQuest plugs.
I’m surprised, that the Platinum should be more Dynamic and detailed compared to the Silver plated version. Always thought, Platinium plating is less conductive compared to Silver (best) and Gold (2nd best).
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@ Bruno
I also live in EU and still think you should use min 2x 18awg for the hot/life and 2x 16awg for the neutral + ground. I use this even for my low power LPS Shanti for my AlloUSBridge Signature. If you’re using a high power amp it could be beneficial to use 3x 18awg. I have ordered the SonarQuest Plugs directly from the original China Website and it was flawless regarding delivery, less than 10 days, no Importtax nor addition VAT and shipping cost included. So for 38€ I got IEC and Schuko plug with silverplating in clear housing. I prefer the clear housing, as you can see the better how the cable is fitted into the IEC clamping. |
My experience in general with cables, but more on ICs than PCs is, that the lower the dielectric of the insulation, the more “open” and “dynamic” it sounds.
Could be the reason, why you “hear” more dynamic after replacing the cable with cotton sleeves.
I think, the VH Audio silver cable in cotton sleeve is one of the most open and dynamic wire and
can only be “topped” with bare wire in an oversized cotton sleeve, where the contact area is even more reduced.However, on PCs I think the conductor material is not that important. Using solid core, ideally not bigger than 18AWG ( and than multiple of them to get total required size) twisted in low dielectric insulation with minimum contact area and a good connection is key.
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@ Steve (williewonka) : ?????
Your last post:
OK - Just did some math on the Neotech 12 gauge wire (Teflon)
- Sonic Craft - $7.66 US/foot
- Hifi Collective - £4.39+vat/Meter
where did you see these prices from Hi-Fi Collective???
when I look up their page I find the following:
SOCT-12: AWG 12, 1 strand of 2mm wire, diameters, inner: 2mm, outer: 3.4mm, 300V, 30A rated.
PRICE (1 metre): £21.76+vat+p&p
Steve, I will purchase from you, if you get these good rates 😉👍🏼
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@williewonka
Steve, just a comment on your proposal for power cords:
According safety regulations in Europe you need to have the ground wire minimum the same size as the “life” and “neutral “ conductors.
Something you might have to mention in your spec sheets.
I’m not sure how this is in US, but would guess it is the same as well.
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@ grannyring - regarding USB cable?
I have not fully understood how you build the USB cable. Can you explain a bit in more detail please?
The 2 data lines (d+ and d-) habe been twisted together. But how did you do the +5V line? The 3 ground lines (18gauge) habe been helixed around what? The 2 data lines including 5V line or is the 5V line separated?
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BTW,
this „skin effect“ together with the insulation material is responsible for high frequency performance of the cables.
PVC coated conductors sound more „muffled“ since PVC has a high dielectrics and „ restricts“ or „ interacts“ with the electron flow on the surface of the conductor.
This gets better with insulation material which has a lower dielectrics constancy like PE, even better PTFE, more better foamed PTFE, cotton and best is an „air gap“, slimmer wire in bigger PTFE tube.
This is being discussed here now for some time and people having positive results.
Especially when using thicker wire it is even more important to reduce the effect of the insulation dampening effect on the outer surface of the conductor.
In one of my first posts here I brought this idea up to use a PTFE tube. |
XLR ?
smooth and cheap - Vampire gold plated
high resolution and neutral - ETI Kyro
cheap but a bit edgy - Neutrik silver plated
I‘m not a big fan of 18g for IC cables.
There is a reason why all high end cable manufacturers use a multiple of 24g
just my 2 cents |
@divertiti
there is more than resistance...
electrons travelling on a conductor...
there is an effect, called skin effect, which basically means, that higher frequency are manly travelling on the outer surface of a conductor and lower frequency more inside a conductor.
For audio frequencies 20Hz to 16kHz the most balance is achieved with wire gauge of 24 (0,5 mm dia).
With thicker dia this gets out of balance.
Some people like this kind of „sound“ more.
Im my opinion this is very much depending on the quality of your equipment. If it has a tendency of being „sharp“ or edgy or on the lean side, thicker wire will „cure“ or „tame“ this at the expense of loosing micro details.
To reduce resistance many cable companies use multiple runs of 24 AWG wires. My max wire gauges are:
IC 22 AWG
SC 20 AWG
PC 18 AWG
For balanced IC (only when your sending and receiving equipment is truly balanced/ symmetrical) I prefer the VH Audio receipt with 2x 24AWG for + and - signal. GND can be 18 AWG.
The Helix design is superior for unbalanced RCA ICs, as ist reduces noise and crosstalk.
But for balanced ICs noise is not an issue and keeping + and - separated as with the VH Audio receipt makes more sense for lower capacitance and crosstalk and inductance. |
@ abolive
""RE: RCA to XLR...
OK - so there is no real great solution for this setup. You can create a cable with RCA at one end and XLR at the other. The Helix geometry is probably one of the better geometries for this because of the lack of noise in the cable.
On the XLR end
- Pin #1 would connect the neutral coil and
- Pin #2 would connect the signal wire
- pin #3 left unconnected
Hope that answers your questions
Regards - Steve""
I have always connected pin 3 as well to the pin 1 in the XLR connector.
Both will work, have a try, what sounds best to your equipement. |
@ marcus87
living in Europe, I have made my low powered pc's with 2x 16 AWG OCC Neo unstriped like this:
Life = 2x 16 AWG OCC Neo in PTFE twisted 1x every inch clockwise.
Spacer = 1 x 15 AWG (1,5sqmm) solid core groundwire (green-yellow) from home depot with PVC insulation (cheap) coiled on a 6mm dia rod clockwise ratio 3,5:1. Slide the life wire into that coil. This is only connected to wall plug, as ist acts purely as a spacer.
Neutral (and grd if needed) = coiled anti-clockwise on a 12mm rod. I used Jantzen silver plated 4N copper in PTFE as well.
Slide it over the Life/GND construction.
This way, the space between life and neutral wire is very even.
A low cost version I have tested as well (use it on my diy power supply for 5V DC for my amazon fire stick and on the 5V DC for my ethernet/fibre-optic converters).
Instead of the expansive OCC Neo wire I have used the Jantzen 6N OFC copper speaker cable (2 x 1,0sqmm / 17 AWG) as live conductor.
Coiled a 1,5sqmm GND wire as spacer (as above) and the Jantzen silver platted copper 1,3sqmm x 2 as neutral.
Note: The Jantzen speaker cable is only approved for max 80 V, so you can not use it as a power cord when connecting the 2 internal wires one to life and one to neutral !!!
It sounds not quite as open as the OCC Neo, more pleasing which can be a good thing in some applications. |
@ markus87
I have always connected the “spacer-wire” at the mains plugs side together with the GND wire.
If there is a EM field inducted from the “life” conductor to the spacer, this will be fed to ground.
Main reasons I do this are, more equal spacing between life and neutral and it gives the whole construction a more solid fit. The Jantzen wire for neutral is not as easy to work with as if it would be with a solid core wire.
No, in this construction I do not cover the life wire with anything else.
I have made more than a dozen different Helix PCs with different wires and they all sound slightly different.
This Design is with my ears and my equipment the best compromise in terms of “sound” and “construction”.
On the “air” (wire without insulation) design and on other designs I had used 2 Teflon tubes (6mm and 12mm) to create a kind of “spacer” to keep the neutral away from the life conductors.
I think the coiled GND wire is at least equal and easier and more cost effective.
I use a 3:1 ratio.
I used different plugs, and these “sound” more different, than some of the different constructions.
The SonarQuests silver plated are very open. On some applications I prefer the Furutech FI-15 (G) IEC connector, as it is easier to work with and has a more “solid” sound signature. And for Schuko plugs I used either SonarQuest, Wattgate or Hifituning. Later 2 are easier to work with.
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In addition to my post above:
With a „normal“ 230V AC power line the „life“+ is carrying +230V and „neutral“- is 0V. The outlet of a balanced power conditioner has +115VAC on „life“ and -115VAC on „neutral“ conductor.
Therefore both conductor should have same size and length. Otherwise you loose some of the effect of the power conditioner. |
@ aniwolfe
a balanced power conditioner is a kind of isolating Trafo with the addition to create from the one phase inlet (in Europe 230V AC) a symmetrical output of +115V AC and -115V AC. All DC, which could be on the 230V input line is eliminated and the new power is not connected to Neutral line, which could have noise and DC as well.
The components, which will plug into this balanced power conditioner will still see a 230V AC, which is the absolute difference between -115V and +115V.
They can make a noticeable difference with the big advantage to have no dampening/loss of dynamics. Actually, in most cases they „sound more dynamic“, as the new voltage is always stable 230V, which, on the „normal“ inlet is not the case and we all know the fluctuations of voltage between days and night time. Main reason, that Hi-Fi systems may sound better at night. |
Steve
I think no 3. you meant UP-OFC ?? |
@ willgolf
your hum , it seams to me like you have a DC voltage on your mains, or picking up some sort of RFI or EMI.
And it could be, that the helix design does not filter any.
A power cord that does a kind of filtering could be a multi wire cable with “ cross-connections” of the wires.
I have good results with a 7 wire standard Ölflex CY 110 cable, 7G1,5.
It has 1 centre wire and 6 wires around this centre wire. G1,5 means, each wire is 1.5 sqmm (15 AWG).
Cross-connection means, you use from the outer wires no.1,3,5 and connect them to L, and wires 2,4,6 to N. The centre wire I only connect to ground on the mains plug, not the IEC plug.
This makes up to a 3x 1.5sqmm (4.5 sqmm) power cord. The CY 110 is shielded and the shield I only connect to main plug.
If your amps have an earth pin on the IEC inlet, you need to add a ground wire, min. 4.5sqmm, which I run on the outside around the cable.
It is a PVC insulated standard stranded industrial cable. Connected to good power plugs and giving it more time to burn in, you can get a really good performing power cord at a very low price.
The cable costs just 5-10€/m + plugs.
Since the wires are multi-strands, it sounds more “airy” than solid core, but not as tight as the OCC solid core. (After min 200h burn-in; I put them 2 week on my fridge before I put them in my stereo)
I use these on my HT Receiver and like them more than the Helix PCs in this application because of its “Shielded”design and the “filtering” effect.
Best IEC plugs would be FIM (not available any more), or SonarQuest silver. |
@ provst
few comments to your topics:
1.) PCs 230V AC
I found no difference for neutral using 2x 1,3sqmm or 1x 2,5sqmm Jantzen wire.
Be aware, being in 230V country, the PE (Ground-) wire must be minimum the size of the L/N conductors. With the double neutral helix like Steve proposes, this is not given.
If the extra expenses for Neotech OCC as N is worth the gain in sound, I do not beleave, since you already have purchased the MIL wire. Solid core vs stranded- well, my experience is, that solid core thicker than 16 AWG is not “sounding” good in PCs (230V country). This is the reason, I use stranded Jantzen silver plated wire as neutral.
Its all personal taste and component synergies. In some applications I do not like the helix PC with Neotech OCC 2x 16 AWG at all. Prefere stranded wire in different configuration.
2.) Balanced IC as helix design
I do not believe, the helix design is best suited for balanced IC, unless you do 2 single ended (RCA) cables for 1 XLR cable. One, where centre wire is ve+ and an other where centre wire carries ve-.
The ve+ and ve- in the helix design are “undefined “ running next to each other.
A much better design for Balance IC is the VH Audio receipe, where + and - and GND is “ at controlled distance to each other, having capacity and inductance within the cable “controlled “.
I do not like the Neotech OCC copper wire in the IC’s. Have tried a few different configurations with different wire diameters.
My “best” sounding balanced IC is made according the VH Audio receipt but with 1x 28 AWG and 1x 24 AWG VH Audio OCC silver in cotton wire twisted for ve+ and ve- and 1x 24 and 1x 22 AWG Neotech OCC copper in PTFE as ground.
Connectors are ETI Kyro silver XLR soldered with Cardas solder.
This balanced VH Audio wire with Neutrik silver plated connectors outperforms the Neotech OCC copper in the same design with ETI Kyro plugs easy.
The ETI Kyro XLR plugs are 10x more expensive than the Neutrik. Of course they are not 10x better, but surprisingly audible better, more than I expected.
The Neotech XLR cable sounds impressive and really great Hi-Fi, the VH Audio sounds like “music”
Difficult to describe until you experience it yourself. It’s got NO “silver” sound, it is smoother, richer, more texture, air, ambient and bass is better. Sounds weird? Yes, but that’s what I hear with my ears, my brain, my equipment in my room.
If the equipment and the speakers are not at a very high level, it may be different, since the amount of micro details could show all the flaws in the chain.
just my 2 cents...
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@ provst reg VH Audio balanced IC http//www.venhaus1.com/diysilverinterconnects.html basically it is the above linked design. I use to buy a 6 mm twisted robe from home depot which consists of min 3 smaller robes twisted together. (1€/m). I than cover the robe with plumber- PTFE tape by twisting it around the robe over the full length. This prevents the robe to "split" when coiling the wire onto it and does a kind of insulation from the base material of the robe, which mostly is a kind of PE material. This robe should now show 3 "grooves" twisting along the run of the robe. These "grooves" are now my "spacers" between the +, - and GND wires. I then prepare the conductors by using 2 wires (1x 28 and 1x 24 AWG of 7N OCC silver in cotton for + and -) and twist them by hand, 1 twist every 1 cm. Then I twist these double conductors along the robe in the grooves of the robe. After doing this for the 3 wires I use again the plumber PTFE tape and run this twice over the whole construction. This does a kind of fixation of the conductors to reduce "vibrations" from external and internal and gives it a neat look. |
@ provst Are you using solid core or stranded wire from Neotech for the ground wires? yes, solid core. |
Update on making a helix power cord:
Wonder, if someone has done it and if so, what is your experience?
What I did today:
A 1m long 230V power cord tested on my DIY linear power supply for my streamer and DAC, which delivers 12VDC and 5VDC. The DAC uses only 8 VA and the streamer less than 4 VA.
L =
2x 16 AWG Neotech OCC solid core in PTFE twisted together (2 x / 1cm). Wrapped plumbers PTFE around it.
Added a cotton sleeve on top.
Put this into a braided copper shielding, which is connected to mains plug for drainage.
N = 2x 2.5sqmm Jantzen silver plated copper stranded wire in PTFE and same for GND coiled around a 8mm Aluminium rod. Slides over the “L” conductor. It is a very tight fit.
Plugs are SonarQuest Silver plated with clear housing.
Whats new compared to my former PC with basically the same configuration is the shielding of the inner L conductor by using the braided shielding.
I think it is better than without the shielding. Seems to have a quieter background. No loss of dynamics.
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@ Steve,
thx for your thoughts.
I was surprised about the positive effect of the “shielded L” conductor, since the LPS only draws approx 60mA at 230VAC. This is a low current load on 2x 16 AWG wires and the induced EMI should be low.
I would expect, that the positive effect could be even greater on higher current load situations, ie higher wattage devices.
Yes, the shield is only connected on the mains plug, not the IEC side.
2 reasons, I did not apply the “Air adaption”:
- safety / with having a conductive Metall shield on the L conductors I want to be on the save side.
- on my LPS for the digital audio components I do not favour the “naked” sound, could “sound” too lean. |
@ divertiti
I have done the „outer“ coil as „airadotption“ using a 6mm Teflon tube on a 1.5sqmm wire on some power cords.
For further protection I did use an additional 10mm PVC tube over the Teflon tube, (PC at 230V).
It was easy to slide the wire into the PTFE tube, but the PVC tube had been a bit more difficult, but worked.
I used to twist the 2 outer wires (2x 15 AWG) together by hand at the same time.
The PTFE tube needs to be longer as the wire, as it shortens after twisting.
However, I‘m not sure if it is worse the extra work. My concern is, stripping the insulation may damage (cut) the OCC wire and this may „eliminate“ some of the benefits. If one could get the OCC wire naked, I would probably do the Air-Adaption. |
@ williewonka & tennesseejed
just my understanding of purity of wires:
xN - x equals number of N (nines)
4N - 99.99%
5N - 99.999%
6N - 99.9999%
May be I‘m wrong, then let me know.
so the silver wire with .999 is a 5N silver.
But I have compared 6N copper wires, one is a OFC and the other is a UP OCC copper. The bigger difference makes the OCC process, not if it is 5N or 6N.
This is true as well for solid silver wire.
The VH Audio silver wire is a 6N OCC wire and to my ears the best, but as well expensive.
Have compared VH Audio solid silver 6N OCC in cotton with Neotech 6N UP-OCC in Teflon with 2x 24 AWG as IC and prefer the VH Audio.
It is more natural, smoother with more micro dynamics and spacial information. |
@ ghettocowboy
my favourite XLR plugs are in order of performance:
Neutrik silver plated (better resolution than gold plated, best price/performance ratio)
Vampire Gold plated ( if you prefer the warmer sound of gold plated, approx $12/pcs at soniccraft or partsconnexion.)
ETI Kyro silver ( if you looking for max. resolution) |
I support Steve's statements.
Anything longer than 2m use XLR.
Find out, if your components both sides are fully balanced internally and not using a chip to only convert input/output signal from single ended to balanced.
However, I never experienced a negative effect from balanced cables, they always are at least "on par" with single ended.
Beside the wires you use, it is important to use good plugs and a good soldering technology with good solder. The wire must make direct contact with the solder pocket in the plug and use minimum amount of solder. The solder should only keep the wire in place and not "be" the conductor.
Therefore I do not use "lead-free" solder with no high silver content, as the conventional solders without lead melt at lower temperatures and "flows" better.
I use either Wondersolder or Cardas. Much preferred over all the lead free 4% silver solder from Mundorf, Furutech, etc.
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