Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

Why did you use Duelund 16 gauge in the power cord? Not sure that recipe delivers all that the Helix design offers sonically.  

Nice update and info Steve! Thank you. 

Agree that all silver VH is too much in a system. I like it as the digital source cable only, USB or SPDIF etc...

I have always liked Neotech silver/gold stranded and would love to try the solid core in Teflon. 

Yes the cotton is smart.  7mm outer diameter works good. 5mm internal diameter. 

Sonic Craft sell this Neotech wire here in the US. 

I really like the Helix IC cables and the author is a great guy. His site is very well done also. I slightly prefer the Duelund 16ga built into a double IC in one. Two 16ga +/- runs in a special geometry. I found it more to my personal liking in terms of body, midrange presence, ease and musicality. Just my subjective preference and others may like the Helix recipe with conductors of their choice

Bottom line is a somewhat skilled DIYer can make cables as good or better than those selling for up to many thousands with some of these proven builds.

I need to try the Helix on a power cord as I have yet to do that.

Is not me who has the website, it is williewonka .

Well done Steve. Yes the Double Helix is simply amazing and is to this date the finest IC I have heard in my system. Just wonderful! 

The cumulative effect of the Helix cables is quite arresting. I now have Double Helix ICs, USB and jumpers. In addition, all my power cables are now Helix. I can say that the more the better. Each new cable I added increased the realism and resolution of my system.

Only thing left is a couple of DC power cables for my LPS’s.

Did you use stranded or solid core? Solid core is very, very stiff! Not sure if solid core is the safest to use long term if one moves cables a bit.  

Wonder if this is the same exact wire? Jeff at Sonic Craft usually has very competitive pricing! I am now using his Neotech 16 gauge solid core copper in Teflon as my outer Helix conductor for my USB cable. Will try it for ICs soon. Always used this wire (14 gauge) for my power supply needs when building tube gear. Like it a lot.


USB cables made using Helix design principles are simply outstanding.

Your right in that I have never heard anyone say Duelund was harsh. No reviewer, no owner etc...   Something was not right for sure. I have heard folks say they are too laid back, dull on top etc...never harsh.  Strange indeed. 

I share your enthusiasm for the Helix! 

@massagevermont shared this site for mill spec 12 gauge and all the other sizes.   I just purchased 200 feet of the 12 gauge for the best price I have seen.  

01-05-2021 4:36pmhttps://www.apexjr.com/wire.html 
Sorry, link didn't work in first post.
Chris

Great feedback Wig. I will be trying running a second 16 gauge Helix negative wire along with the 2 VH Audio solid core copper conductors on positive. So two positive and negative conductors for a double IC. My plan is to try and coil both 16 gauge Helix conductors simultaneously with the rod and drill method.

Well said Steve. Folks like you, me, and others with a plethora of first hand experience know what is true because we took the time and conducted the listening and other tests. We build, tweak, adjust, re-build, make more adjustments, listen and over time we learn. Just nuts how Agon has this growing crowd of “cant be/wont matter” folks who just hang here to say ”no/can’t be”. Strange and unfortunate turn for the worse on this site.

I sure miss the good old days when we could all learn from each other’s experiences and respect was given. Not so anymore. We have a new crowd that has not done the work or given the effort on a certain matter, but they still desire to say “no way” based on something they read or learned in a classroom. Nothing beats trying for yourself and learning through actual experience. 

My experience with ICs has always been 16-18 gauge sounds better than 24-20 gauge.  Just my experience. 

I would add this one note. My system is very natural sounding and my Mojo Audio dac has much to do with this. No part of the frequency spectrum is out of balance. In my system a full loom of Helix cables works very well. If a system has a piece of gear or speakers that lean on the hot and lean side of things, then throwing in one warmer IC, for example, can be a good thing. I tried a Duelund Double in my system and that does darken and warm up the sound a tad. May be good for some systems.

These Helix cables remove noise you never knew was there! They are great at removing noise and bringing you closer to the music and realism of the performance and instrument.

They are better as @aniwolfe says, but I would not be quite as bold about being “far better” as that is not so clear cut in all systems and ears. The Duelund is warmer and a tad more relaxed in many systems, including mine, which can be a good thing. While I like the increased resolution of the Helix I had to put back in a Duelund power cord to balance out my system’s sound to my liking. It was just a tad too direct and resolute. All Helix cords is great, but bringing back one Duelund cable into the mix really made it perfect for me. In general the Helix cables are more resolute, decrease noise letting in more inner detail and provide better realism. The Duelund cables are warmer, more mellow and darker sounding.

This audio stuff is tricky in terms of saying something is universally better as people have differing sonic priorities, preferences and gear/rooms. I have mellowed my impulse to state absolutes the older and more experienced I get. For me, the Helix cables are very special and will be used in 80-90% of my system.

Bill, I would start with one IC. See what that does, then make a second. Great to add one at a time and listen. I may add back one of my Duelund USB cables for more of that relaxed sound. I use two USB cables. Hard to really know where you will land until you listen for several weeks and the cables have 200 hours on them. 

The Helix cables are not all bright or overly forward. They are open and and let you hear deeply into the recording. They reveal more than the Duelund in a good and realistic way.  I am confident you would love the ICs added to your system. By adding one at a time you will control your system’s end sound all along the way.  As I added more Helix cables I liked what I heard. That did not change until I added all the Helix power cords.   I found I had gone too far and added back in a Duelund cable or two.  Perfect.  Still 80% Helix! 

👍✌️

That tab is a great connector and design having made at least 150 sets of ICs with those plugs. The Furutech will look better and feel higher quality, however they will not sound as good. I have done the listening tests. Contact me and I will give you some tips. A joy to work with!

These plugs do not editorialize the sound.

Solder is not the primary conductor if you do this right. The bottom line is the KLEIs sound better.  Better sounding connector when soldered properly with very little solder and bare wire to tab direct connection. I have some tips.  

When building ICs with these KLE Innovation plugs consider  the following aids and techniques. 

- use WBT 4% silver solder. I like the leaded one better.  Just wash your hands after and use a fan/filter to keep the smoke away from your nostrils. 

- use an old piece of gear or some $10 Goodwill CD player etc... to plug your KLEI male connector into.  This makes it so much easier to solder.  The jack is now hands free secured and won’t budge! 

- make sure you have a good soldering iron. Preferably one that offers variable heat settings.   Set it to 800 - 850 degrees.  Yes this hot. You want to get in and out fast.....2 seconds. 

- tin the bare VH Audio wire. I find it not necessary to tin the forked tab. 

The 18 gauge VH Audio wire should rest inside the fork portion of the KLEI tab with a little bit of the stripped  wire protruding past (over) the forked tab. I like to place a little weight onto the wire a few inches down from the from the solder point. This holds the stripped wire down with pressure against the forked tab. I rest a set of pliers over the wire to accomplish this. 

Time to solder.  Get in and out in 2 seconds or so with your very hot soldering iron. Use very little solder.  Just enough to assure a strong connection. You don’t want to see blobs or areas where the solder is thick. 

Jeff at Sonic Craft told me this a year ago.  He only stocks the Classic and Absolute stating the others are a waste of time to carry. I trust his ears as he knows what he is talking about. 

I have been building ICs, USB and digital cables with the VH Audio 18 gauge solid core SILVER Airlock wire in place of copper and the difference is not small. In my system, and others of high quality, the sonic gains are substantial.

The realism and micro detail retrieval is substantially improved. My system is playing music with a new level of realism that I have never heard before. All of the full bodied bloom of copper is still there, but even more refined and resolving. I have not liked one single brand or type of silver conductor in my builds until I tried this VH Audio conductor. All the silver wire I had tried in the past just sounded too thin or lean. NOT the case with the 18 gauge VH Audio Silver solid core.

My system’s mids and highs are as smooth as butter. I cannot overstate how amazing the Double Helix builds are using VH Audio silver. Yes, I am talking about the double. I find this conductor better sonically
than the Mundorf silver/gold. The Mundorf lacks the bottom end heft and weight while sounding not as smooth and extended on top. The realism of the VH silver is also better.

Now, the cost of this silver conductor has almost doubled in price over the last month as silver is up. ($39 foot) So these are expensive builds, but the cables are outperforming $6000-$8000 branded cables in systems.

I have not heard any cable, at any price, sound this wonderful. I am sharing this for those looking for the best possible cabling for their high end system. I have only built ICs, digital cables and USB cables thus far. Speaker cables would be far too expensive for me with this wire. The silver wire was only used on the USB data wires and the positive runs in digital and IC cables. The 16 gauge, silver plated, stranded copper wire from Take Five Audio was used for the USB power ground and negative runs on the digital and IC cables.

Use WBT 4% silver solder and be sure to cover the twisted pair of 18 gauge VH silver used on the positive runs of the ICs and digital cables with two layers of unbleached pure cotton tubing to damp unwanted vibrations. I use 4-5mm cotton tubing and then a second 7mm covering. I also use KLE Absolute Harmony plugs for my RCA builds. On the double helix I use a 4 to 1 length ratio of TFA wire to VH Audio wire. For example, if building a 3 foot set of Double Helix ICs, then you would need two 12 foot lengths of the TFA wire in addition to the two 4 foot lengths of the VH Audio wire.

Steve I am thinking your Neotech power cord experience has much more to do with gauge and voltage carried than the sonic qualities of the two brands of wire. I think if the VH Audio wire was offered in 12 gauge would likely sound even better than Neotech. I just don’t think combining 18 gauge conductors for a power cord is ideal. Your results point to that in my opinion.

Now I happen to think 14 and 12 gauge conductors would be better for speaker cables than 18 gauge. Even if you combine two 18 gauge conductors I feel the single 12 gauge conductor would be better....within the same brand. This is based on my listening tests with several well touted brands of conductors. No matter the outer insulation the heavier gauge within each brand always sounded better with speaker cables. Improved fullness, bass drive, dynamics and midrange bloom. I would go with the 12 gauge 🤓 for moderate to high power amps with less efficient or moderately efficient speakers. Highly efficient speakers coupled with a low watt tube amp work fine with 16 or 14 gauge provided the length is under say 10 feet.

Will the 12 or 14 gauge Neotech wire sound better than two 18 gauge VH Audio conductors in your speaker cables? Really don’t know until you try. While the Neotech gauge is more to my liking will that positive outweigh the positive sonic qualities of the VH wire? Don’t know as I have not compared. I would not use less than two VH Audio 18 gauge conductors in your speaker cables however.

Question for you. Neotech sells the solid core copper wire in PVC for $2 per foot less than Teflon. Since it is the same internal wire and you are stripping off the insulation, it would seem smart to buy the PVC version of the Neotech wire. Perhaps you shared this, but I may have missed this.

Thank you so much for this power cord discovery!

Steve, my mistake as I noticed you already mentioned the Neotech PVC option. Sorry! 

Great stuff! My guess is the 12 gauge with molded Teflon jacket in place would sound even better on your speaker cables.  I use 2-10 gauge conductors per leg in my speakers cables as an FYI. Sounded better than a single 10 gauge per leg.  These are not Helix cables however. I use Helix jumpers up to my mids and highs. 

Wonder if Chris at VH Audio would consider making his solid core Airlock copper in a 12 gauge thickness? That would be the ticket in my estimation. I also think the bare copper will oxidize over time, but how much and to what sonic impact? Not sure. 

Wow.  The more I listen, the more impressed I am. More at ease, better sense of control, larger stage, better focus, greater bottom end solidity.  

I replaced the 5 runs of VH Audio 18 gauge on the live conductor for the power cord used on my conditioner. I replaced with two runs of the Neotech 12 gauge solid core copper in Teflon. I left the Teflon in place. Yes indeed this was a significant upgrade in sound. No doubt. Wonderful.

I will do the same on the power cord to my SS Coda amplifier next. I figure the VH Audio is fine on the dac and streamer so I will leave those alone. I will use two runs of Neotech 12 gauge in Teflon for the live conductor in the amp’s power cord.

Thank you for this update Steve. You have been working! Seems your result is somewhat system dependent. I find the VH wire more refined and not as up front sounding. I am very familiar with the Neotech wire as I have used it in builds (electronics) for many years. In my system I find it a tad forward and forced compared to VH. Now this is subtle thing and not day and night different.  I find the VH wire a tad more refined and less forward. Too forward sounding is a sensitive sonic area for me so my subjective taste kicks in here.  

I recently used the Neotech copper in my power cord and while I love it, it is more forward sounding and would not use it in my other power cords because of that.  System balance is good right now and I am afraid to mess with it. 

So many variables from system to system, room to room, person to person that I think we are now down to system synergies and preferences. I really don’t think one is the best option for all situations and systems.

I do like the Neotech silver & gold conductor very much, but they don’t offer it in a gauge I would want (18-20).

Yes indeed two is all you need, but 18-20 gauge would be better if they had it to try. Even when I tried the Mundorf solid core silver/gold the 18 gauge was better than the thinner gauges. Crazy expensive however. Zenwave is a cable seller, not DIY wire seller? Right?

Have you tried the VH silver 18 gauge in your ICs? I find it rather perfect. Two runs on the positive.

Sounds like you were able to purchase some wire from Zenwave?

@divertiti,

The idea here is to build two individual XLR cables into one. If you do that, then this is the build.

* Two twisted pairs with each individual twisted pair going to pins 2 and 3. Be careful not to mix up the wires when soldering to pins 2 and 3. Use your multimeter continuity setting and double check as you build.

* Two TFA 16 gauge conductors on the ground .... pin 1.

This is not about total gauge. It is about making two ICs into one. So no, one 15 gauge conductor is not the same or as good as the two 18 gauge twisted pairs!

Also, thicker gauge reaches a point of diminishing returns once you get lower than 16 gauge in ICs.

The helix ground on your xlr is never a twisted pair, but always a coiled helix. It is not a huge sonic degrade if you just use one conductor as the helix. However, two sound a tad better. 

If using two wires on the helix, then just coil them up side by side on your drill at the same time.  Very easy to do.  I have been able to uncoil the TFA wire once coiled.  Took my time and did a good job of getting it straight again. 

I would use a 4-4.5 to 1 ratio on the helix to pin 2&3 conductors if just using one conductor. 

That’s what I did! Thanks for be more precise Steve. 

Double is always better. Double on both positive and helix. It just is. Is it day and night better? No. Just a tad better and if you want the most out of your build, then go for it! If you are going through the work and effort, then make it the best you can with the conductors you have chosen.

I would not recommend using bare copper wire in cotton for the positive conductors. They will oxidize over time, no doubt about it. Silver or silver/gold is fine!  Food for thought.

Yes double on the digital yields the exact same improvements.  More scale, dynamics, ease and a tad more presence.  Have fun! 

Yes always UPS Express! Always.  USPS Is an absolute mess right now.  30 days to go 300 miles and so many more bad recent experiences. Just an utter and complete mess! 

Thanks for the link. Too bad not cryo treated, but the prices are great! We should do a group purchase and get it cryo treated 🤓.  TFA is always out it seems and slow shipping speed.  Parts Connextion in CA ships overnight for $15! TFA charges twice that and it takes 10-14 days to get here.  Sometimes longer. 

Cryo treating most all parts is a nice plus.  It certainly does help somics in my humble opinion.  I may buy a spool and have it cryo treated. Not crazy expensive to do really. 

What if we spiral wound a flat ribbon style copper or silver conductor around a wider diameter Teflon tube for the Helix? Oh my 🤔

Hot glue works well for damping/vibration control. I use it in some builds to good effect. I found no sonic negatives at all.   USB cable builds. I agree it would be best to make a double helix with two independent Teflon tube conductors as a twisted pair. It provides more of the sonic benefits of a true double IC rather than what is closer to simple increased gauge.

Hot glue the tube ends? 

I built a usb cable with the VH Audio 18 gauge solid core copper conductors on the data conductors. The foamed Teflon insulation was stripped off. I placed the bare wire conductor into a cotton jacket. I twisted the individual cotton covered data conductors into a twisted pair. I used three of the VH Audio 18 gauge solid core copper conductors as the outer ground helix shield (triple) with the insulation on.

Steve’s comments are spot on! Best sounding usb cable I have made to date. Just beautiful sounding.

Will the copper oxidize under the cotton? Maybe yes. Maybe no. Maybe it will not impact the sound over time? Plenty of silk and cotton covered wire sold.

More listening to these nude VH Audio copper conductors in my usb cable has me shaking my head. My goodness this is sounding great! Darn....I have to strip my ICs and put the nude VH & Neotech positive conductors in silk, cotton or Teflon tubing.  I am leaning towards silk. I would like to stay away from Teflon and keep all natural.   Maybe buy the VH silver conductors and place in silk.  

I think silk may well sound even better than a Teflon tube. Don’t know for sure, but seems reasonable. I plan on making the exact same copper usb cable with a Teflon tube and also silk.   Right now the nude VH Audio 18 gauge copper in cotton sounds just amazing in my usb cable.

If you feel you want to coat the naked wire, then use a Sprayon product called red insulating varnish. This is what is used to spray transformer windings to prevent shorts. It is electrical grade.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M0RQC27/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I think it would most likely degrade the sound vs nude. How much? If at all? No need with silver as oxidation that deteriorates sound quality is not an issue with silver. I know some folks will argue oxidation and sound degradation happens with pure silver, but have owned and built many pure silver cables, I have yet to hear or see any deterioration after almost 15 years! My home is always temperature controlled and maintains a humidity level under 40 however.

 This spray is for those who are concerned about copper. Jupiter and other companies make copper in cotton conductors and I have used these for years without any sound or serious oxidation problems. However, on paper it can sure happen. 

This is how I build my helix usb.   Go to Steve’s site where he posted my pics and build instructions.  Best to not have to make the cable with the 5v conductor if possible.  Many dacs supply their own clean 5v internally for the usb input.  Some do not. Here is the link. 

You can use VH Audio 18 gauge silver or copper for the data conductors.  Silver sounds better than copper.  You can strip off the Teflon insulation and cover with silk for the best sound.  Each data conductor much be placed in a 1.5-2.5mm internal dimension silk tube before making a twisted data pair. 

You must be skilled at soldering the thicker gauge wires onto the tiny and closely spaced usb solder pads.  Any solder bridges will ruin you dac’s usb input board! 

http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-image-usb-cable.html

@twoleftears. I have made and sold cables with the Duelund stranded and tinned copper wire in oil impregnated copper for years. I have built ICs, USBs, speaker cables, DC cables, jumpers etc... and I like that conductor. The Helix is just heads and heals better with either the VH Audio or Neotech copper wire with the Teflon insulation in place.

We are now talking about squeezing out even more performance from the very best many of us have ever heard or built. Don’t misunderstand the point of our latest posts.  The double helix design as outgunned cables selling for up to $13,000! This is reality. Yes, these are that good. As much as I loved my Acoustic BBQ Double Smoked Duelund cables I have to admit these helix designs surpass them in every sonic attribute important to us Aphiles.