I have been an avid user of the Duelund cabling for
over two years now and have used them exclusively in my system with great
results. I have built many for friends and have used a full loom of
interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and an extensive wiring modification
for a previously owned balanced power conditioner utilizing Duelund 600V PolyCast
wiring which was transformative. My cabling desires can be a little addictive
as I have owned and evaluated 40+ brands of cabling costing more than an entire
stereo system!
Over the past six months I stumbled upon a thread here
on Audiogon in regards to a Helix designed cabling and as you probably already
know, I just had to look a little deeper into this cable design…After a month
of studying and sourcing parts, I decided to reach out to the
designer/architect, Williewonka who gave more insights and philosophy on how
the cable came into existence.
That conversation got the ball rolling in converting
one of my KLE Duelund interconnects to Steve’s Helix designed which only entailed
replacing the neutral with a Mil-Spec 16 AWG silver-plated copper wire with the
neural wire being 3 times longer than the signal wire and of course the “Coiling”
of the neutral wire : )
After the modification was complete, I was not sure
what to expect from the Helix cabling but I was quite shocked with the results
with “ZERO” burn-in time…The sound stage became much wider/deeper with a much
tighter/focused image and clarity/transparency is like nothing I have ever
heard in any cabling regardless of cost. In fact, I just sold a full loom of a commercially
designed Helix Cable that’s renowned around the world and has more direct sale
than any cable manufacturer; these $200 DIY Helix Cables walked all over them…
I believe you will hear the same results as I have and
have heard back from friends who have already modified their Duelunds with the
same results; WOW! Remember the cables will need 200+ hours to burn-in and
settle into your system. My system is now 90% DIY Helix to include IC, SC, PC
and Coax with each cabling adding its beauty of an organic and natural
presentation that draws you into the fabric of the music.
You can tailor the sound of your cables using Duelund,
Mundorf silver/1% gold, the outstanding Vh Audio OCC Solid Copper or Silver with Airlok
Insulation or your favorite wiring and you can change it at any time…
@roberttdid - yes it's infra red, but a pretty good one - for the amp I measured in two very specific places - on the faceplate near the heatsink and on the heatsink. Each time the music has been played for a similar length of time and at a similar volume level, with similar tracks.
Same process with the source components.
A similar experience was observed with the Bluesound Powernode 2 on my AV system and a couple of phono stages.
WRT:
Where it won't is say near a transformer in an aluminum case, or other incidences of magnetic coupling.
I try to keep my cables well away from transformers of any kind :-)
Unless you measured the volume level, this is almost the same as random. We can't remember volume levels with any accuracy and a few db of volume could be many degrees of temperature on the heat sinks.
similar volume level
Your cable is not going to make a bit of difference to the temp of the Powernode. It has a switching supply and nothing your cable does is going to make any difference to the efficiency except maybe make it worse.
w.r.t. the IR thermometer, they don't work well on anodized aluminum. Even on black anodized they are not very accurate. The only way to get accurate results on aluminum is to put paint on it, though a heavy permanent market can work okay as well.
@williewonka Thanks for sharing your design and actively answer questions about it. I have built the interconnects and speaker cables and am enjoying them. I am in the process of upgrading my system and these cables have given me a better sound than the old AQ interconnects and Duelund speaker cables I was using. I can't wait to get a quality front end to my system to hear how the sound improves.
@wig Great to hear. I have new speaker drivers (Lii Audio Crystal 10s) and a new 4 watt SET amp (Whammerdyne DGA-2+RAM) which are high resolution and sound wonderful. They show the weakness in my front end system and anything else. I need to make 2 Helix Power Cords and get a new streamer and DAC.
Regardless I love the sound I am getting now and can't wait to get over 200 hours on the cables.
Plus - in addition to stellar low level performance, I find I am able to listen to music at significantly louder levels without fatigue. e.g. Classical music can be a little overbearing at higher levels with most other cables, but I find I can now listen at concert levels without any issues. Opera is another genre that I find is also far more pleasurable with the Helix.
Your cable is not going to make a bit of difference to the temp of the Powernode. It has a switching supply and nothing your cable does is going to make any difference to the efficiency except maybe make it worse.
Since you did not OBSERVE the reduction in temperature and the associated ambient conditions and the level the music was played at, you are not really in a position to make that assertion and your words are simply conjecture.
My comments were not based on a single A/B comparison, but observations and temperature measurements over a number of weeks.
It may not be the style of observation that you would consider definitive proof, but I consider it something to make others that adopt the Helix cables aware of.
Anyway - I have nothing else to contribute on this matter - I'll simply leave it for others, i.e. who use the Helix cables, to perhaps come to their own conclusions based on "observation".
Well said Steve. Folks like you, me, and others with a plethora of first hand experience know what is true because we took the time and conducted the listening and other tests. We build, tweak, adjust, re-build, make more adjustments, listen and over time we learn. Just nuts how Agon has this growing crowd of “cant be/wont matter” folks who just hang here to say ”no/can’t be”. Strange and unfortunate turn for the worse on this site.
I sure miss the good old days when we could all learn from each other’s experiences and respect was given. Not so anymore. We have a new crowd that has not done the work or given the effort on a certain matter, but they still desire to say “no way” based on something they read or learned in a classroom. Nothing beats trying for yourself and learning through actual experience.
Well, @grannyring - now you’ve gone an done it - now I have to upgrade my IC’s - yet again :-)
For once - Rain started play - I decided to put a rainy day to good use and upgrade a set of interconnects with a second identical wire for the signal conductor - basically, half the approach grannyring has tried - he also doubled up on the neutral wires.
I have been auditioning a Helix IC with the 18 gauge Aolid Copper wire with AirLok from VH Audio. It competed favourably with the Solid Silver Mundorf wire at about 1/5th the cost. So today, I upgraded these IC’s with a second identical 18 gauge signal wire
The results were impressive to say the least and the cables are not even burned in at all yet.
Improvements... - more precise artist placement within the image - improved articulation of very small instrument details e.g. plucking guitar strings - they now "pop" - improved clarity across the board - overall sound is more lively and less compressed
So what’s in the cable I am listening too? - a Helix interconnect with ONE 16 gauge neutral wire (as per the web site) - TWO 18 gauge VH Audio Solid Copper + AirLok insulation signal wires (NEW) - KLE Innovations Absolute Harmony RCA plugs (as per the web site)
So far this cable is performing better than my IC’s that have a Solid Silver Mundorf wire + Cotton sleeve + Absolute Harmony RCA’s
For me, If I can hear improvements easily, then an up[grade like this is worth it - and this was noticeable from the get go. I didn’t have to play multiple tracks to discern a minute change - it was clearly audible. What Grannyring refers to as "a wall of sound" and I can see why
On the plus side, the solid copper wire is much more affordable than the silver.
But, will a dual Solid Silver wire with AirLok insulation sound even better?
I have just heard back from a person that implemented the Helix Speaker cables. He was very happy with them until he changed the amp to a Vitus Audio SIA 025.
The
Vitus employs a "symmetrical" design approach (think 100% Balanced) from the inputs to the speaker terminals. This means that both +ve and -ve terminals both carry "the signal" - a bit like a balanced power supply. It has no real neutral.
The manufacturer clearly warns users to never ground the black speaker outputs.
This resulted in a terrible sound when the Helix cables were used, because of the coiled neutral
I would have to believe that many other geometries are not suited to this amp, in particular some or the TOTL Cardas cables and perhaps Kimber Kable, because their capacitance is significantly hier than other speaker cables and this amp is a high current solid state design
This is the first time I have had anyone report problems with the Helix Speaker Cables.
Well - since we were having another day of bad weather and since I had found enough spare wire to try the full Helix "Double Barrel" as per @grannyring ’s formula, I figured what the heck and gave it a whirl
The cables I changed had a single strand of Mundorf Solid Silver/Gold for the signal with a single strand of 16 Gauge Mil-spec Silver plated stranded copper, as per the recipe on my web site. The cables were 27" long.
I completely de-constructed the mundorf cable and doubled up on the Mundorf Solid Silver/gold for the Signal and doubled up on the 16 gauge Silver plated Mil-spec as per grannyring’s modified version.
Verdict... - well the full Double Barrel edged out the Double Signal cable that I tried yesterday. - the fullness improved and the imaging was more spacious and accurate - all tracks were more articulate. - both cables seem to lessen the amount of compression that is a generally present in most recordings. - the guitar work on Dire Straights tracks now seem to leap out of the speakers whilst maintaining a suitable balance with the rest of the instruments and vocals. This goes for most other well recorded rock tracks - classical tracks seemed to now be performed in a larger venue thanks to the better imaging and I noticed more echoes and reverberations from the sides of the venue, which made the send of space more realistic - all tracks seemed to have a little more "body" compared to the Double Signal
The improvement between these two cables over the Single Cable made the upgrade well worth while.
Since the neutral wire is the more reasonably priced piece of wire, it makes upgrading to the full Double Barrel version a no brainer.
I could not really tell the difference between the Mundorf Wire and the VH Audio Solid COPPER wires, both provide stunning fidelity, so I would recommend using the solid copper at this time
The "Double Barrel" really is the best version of the Helix Interconnect cable to date.
I know that Grannyring has himself tried several versions of the Double Barrel Helix, so I would like to thank him for his efforts in coming up with a winning formula, it is very much appreciated.
If you already have the single wire version, then upgrading to the Double Signal wire version is the easier of these two upgrades and you will achieve about 60% of the benefits obtained from a full Double Barrel rebuild.
But - If you are pursuing Nirvana, then you’ll need Go for the full Double Barrel upgrade ! - so perhaps relegate that single cable to a second system, or sell to a friend - and start from scratch, - it is so much easier than de-constructing an existing cable :-)
So, I answer questions from DIYer’s from all over, with vastly differing skill levels of building experience.
As such, I often get the feeling that some of them might be biting off more than they can chew.
I got to thinking about the questions I answer (almost daily) and thought it might be good to take a more "tempered view" of these three latest versions of the Helix cable - sort of a "sanity check".
Also, I know @wig , @grannyring and myself have logged hundreds of hours building and listening to cables over the years and we each have a specific approach when it comes to comparing cables - i.e. things to listen for. - I know I have trained my ears over the past 10 years and now have over 70 audition tracks I regularly use for auditions - From a listening perspective, I believe the improvements between these three versions might prove more difficult to discern for a more "casual listener".
Another concern is that less proficient DIYer’s may find some aspects of Building #3 to be challenging, even for a more experienced builder. - Helix IC cables are more complicated to build than your average DIY IC cable and good soldering skills are definitely a requirement.
The wires used in all three builds are... - SIGNAL WIRE - 18 gauge Solid Copper with AirLok insulation from VH Audio - NEURAL WIRE - 16 gauge Cryo Silver Plated stranded Mil-Spec wire with Teflon insulation from Take Five Audio
So here are my "more tempered" thoughts on these three builds.
#1 -Single Wire for both signal and neutral coil
this is the original cable currently listed on my web site
provides excellent performance that rivals or betters most TOTL cable brands on the market
the easiest cable of the three to build, even for a novice DIYer.
It’s also the most affordable option
#2 -Two wires for the signal wire and One wire for the neutral coil
by comparison to #1, this cable is a little more articulate, with improved clarity and a more detailed and expansive image
a little more challenging to build, but even a novice could build with a little determination and thought
it’s also pretty easy to upgrade to this version from #1
#3 Two wires for both the the signal wire and neutral coil
by comparison to #2, this cable provides some additional improvements in articulation, clarity and image
The audible difference between #2 and #3 is actually quite small and the increased difficulty of the build I believe makes previous cable building and soldering experience a must.
But if it’s Audio Nirvana you are after? - #3 is the cable to build :-)
Opting to build #1 or #2 is definitely easier and still results in a cable that provides exceptional audio performance - so don’t think you have to opt for #3 simply because it was found to offer the very best sound quality.
As I get older I find myself "tempering" my expectations with a solid dose of "reality". Saves me a lot of frustration - and money :-)
I plan to keep all three cables in my system for future reference purposes, but I will not feel I am "missing out" when listening to sources that use #1 or #2, to me they are just a little different
The cumulative effect of the Helix cables is quite arresting. I now have Double Helix ICs, USB and jumpers. In addition, all my power cables are now Helix. I can say that the more the better. Each new cable I added increased the realism and resolution of my system.
Only thing left is a couple of DC power cables for my LPS’s.
I would add this one note. My system is very natural sounding and my Mojo Audio dac has much to do with this. No part of the frequency spectrum is out of balance. In my system a full loom of Helix cables works very well. If a system has a piece of gear or speakers that lean on the hot and lean side of things, then throwing in one warmer IC, for example, can be a good thing. I tried a Duelund Double in my system and that does darken and warm up the sound a tad. May be good for some systems.
These Helix cables remove noise you never knew was there! They are great at removing noise and bringing you closer to the music and realism of the performance and instrument.
Hello, I have followed this thread and have been using VH Audio wire since 15+ years, DIY ICs, CheLa speaker cables and some PCs.
Recently I tried the Helix design for a PC, first with some cheap “normal” pvc insulated 2.5sqmm copper wire to test it. I finally did the PC for my AlloUSBridge Signature with the following parts:
Hot= 2x 1.2mm dia. bare silver claded solid copper in a PTFE tube sleeve with inner dia of 2.0mm, light twisted and than sleeved into a PTFE tube with 6mm inner dia.
Neutral= 2 runs of the same wire in the same PTFE sleeve coiled with a Ground wire as per Helix design recommendation. PC connectors are SonarQuest pure silver.
This design gives as low as possible dielectric as the surface of the wire is barely touching the insulation and main insulation is air.
This is a very cost effective approach with a little more work to slide the bare wire into the PTFE sleeves, but it sounds incredibly open, stress free and fast.
My experiences with PTFE insulated OCC copper compared to the VH Audio Silver in cotton had always been, that the Neotech OCC wire sounded not as open as the cotton insulated wire. And the Airlock insulation is not far off either.
However, for IC my findings always been, that max wire gauge should be 24AWG. If one wants, one can double it, so 2x 24 AWG for hot and ground. Recently testet a Single 22 AWG wire and was not impressed with the results. Bass and mid/highs had been good, but somehow soundstage became smaller. I wonder, why you all use 18AWG for the hot signal in ICs? Has anybody tried instead of 2x 18 AWG a smaller 2x 24 AWG Helix IC? Best..
@mawe - Glad to hear you are also having success with the Helix design. Sounds like you have been busy :-)
My goal in sharing the helix design via my web site was to have other DIYer's run with it and try their own adaptions, which is exactly what you have done.
The information you have provided is valuable and I will certainly consider your findings when looking at a possible "next version"
Although I have not tried 2 x 24 gauge Helix IC, this is what I have tried... - a few versions ago I used a single 24 gauge solid Silver wire in side a Teflon tube - I then tried 20 gauge with teflon insulation and it sounded better. - other DIYer's tried the 1mm (18 gauge) Mundorf Solid Silver/Gold wire in a cotton sleeve and it again improved the sound. So I then tried that - Following that I tried the 18 gauge VH Audio copper and it was as good as the Mundorf Solid Silver. - Then @grannyring tried the 2 x 18 gauge OCC copper from VH Audio and again the sound improved.
So that has been the more recent "evolution" of the current Helix IC.
It's been a real "team effort" that I could not possibly have accomplished alone.
But at this time, I am very happy with the IC's current design listed in this thread and right now I just need some time to just sit back and listen :-)
But I will keep your adaptions in mind for future versions :-)
Perhaps someone would like to try @mawe's adaptions? - be sure post your findings here please.
Again - many thanks for sharing your adaptions - it's great that people are trying different things with the Helix design.
All this hype coming from people whose ears and brains I've grown to trust has me thinking. A few years ago I made my own speaker cables from Duelund tinned copper and they are the best wires I've ever had. So natural and so tonally correct! But it sounds like this VH Audio OCC is worth a try. My ICs are all XLR, and they are all silver. I wouldn't mind getting a little more copper into the system, so it might be worth a diy project making an IC to go from source to preamp.
I have made a few pairs of the DIY Helix IC’s with VH Airlok Copper and its far superior to a Double run of Duelund IC’s I once owned. Its like comparing a Honda to a Ferrari. The DIY Helix also surpassed a pair of $2800 HFC IC’s that I proclaimed as the best cable I had heard under $3k. The people that don’t try these are missing out big time.
Thanks @aniwolfe for the encouragement. I'm going to get some materials ordered and get to work on 1-2 ICs, speaker cables, and maybe even a power chord. This seems like a stone that cannot go unturned.
They are better as @aniwolfe says, but I would not be quite as bold about being “far better” as that is not so clear cut in all systems and ears. The Duelund is warmer and a tad more relaxed in many systems, including mine, which can be a good thing. While I like the increased resolution of the Helix I had to put back in a Duelund power cord to balance out my system’s sound to my liking. It was just a tad too direct and resolute. All Helix cords is great, but bringing back one Duelund cable into the mix really made it perfect for me. In general the Helix cables are more resolute, decrease noise letting in more inner detail and provide better realism. The Duelund cables are warmer, more mellow and darker sounding.
This audio stuff is tricky in terms of saying something is universally better as people have differing sonic priorities, preferences and gear/rooms. I have mellowed my impulse to state absolutes the older and more experienced I get. For me, the Helix cables are very special and will be used in 80-90% of my system.
Bill, I would start with one IC. See what that does, then make a second. Great to add one at a time and listen. I may add back one of my Duelund USB cables for more of that relaxed sound. I use two USB cables. Hard to really know where you will land until you listen for several weeks and the cables have 200 hours on them.
Bill, Thanks for your comments. Very helpful, as usual. As they system stands now, I think perhaps I should leave my Duelund tinned copper speaker cables in place. Also, I ordered a Swarm back a couple months ago. I'm guessing delivery is 2-3 weeks out. It might be good to wait until I get the Swarm dialed in and see where things are. As the room stands now, I've got plenty of detail, resolution, and air. If anything, I'd be looking to relax and warm things up just a tad.
The Helix cables are not all bright or overly forward. They are open and and let you hear deeply into the recording. They reveal more than the Duelund in a good and realistic way. I am confident you would love the ICs added to your system. By adding one at a time you will control your system’s end sound all along the way. As I added more Helix cables I liked what I heard. That did not change until I added all the Helix power cords. I found I had gone too far and added back in a Duelund cable or two. Perfect. Still 80% Helix!
Not disagreeing with Grannyring, because cables, rooms and components have to agree with each other. We all might get different results, so absolutely go one at a time. But in my system, one of the virtues of the Helix DIY was how relaxed and natural the high frequencies are. The ability to be so revealing and not bright was a first. Bad recordings are even more listenable. So, if your looking for warmth coloration the DIY Helix is not the best choice. They are transparent and neutral all day long. Not too long ago I had the pricey ($6500) Stealth Indra, Audience SX, HFC CT2 and Schroeder Duelund IC in for a showdown. To my surprise the Duelunds high frequencies were harsher in comparison to all the others and more forward. That might not be the popular results for some, but I know what I was hearing. The smoothest was the HFC CT2 and overall best sounding. Then came along the MIGHTY Helix DIY. Never in a millions years did I think these cables were going to do what they do. Just unbelievable. I can’t thank Steve and Wig enough.
Your right in that I have never heard anyone say Duelund was harsh. No reviewer, no owner etc... Something was not right for sure. I have heard folks say they are too laid back, dull on top etc...never harsh. Strange indeed.
I will be updating my web site in a couple of weeks with photos and construction notes on three Helix IC options, which will be.. - Grannyring.s "Double Double" design - a Two on One adaption - i.e. Two Signal wires with a Single Neutral wire - while keeping the original "Regular" one signal with one neutral design
Currently I have one "Double Double" IC using Mundorf Solid silver for the Signal on my streamer and and an IC with a single coil but with a double VH Audio Solid Copper signal wire on my phono Stage, both of which I an enjoying immensely.
Why didn’t I go "Double Double" for all components? - well as we all seem to be discovering - different wires and approaches can be a better match for different components.
But going forward - I do find the VH Audio copper wire to be very compelling, since it competes nicely with the overall performance of the Mundorf Solid Silver + Gold wire - BUT - for 1/5th the cost.- and you gotta love that :-)
VH Audio Solid copper with AirLok is definitely my new "Wire Du Jour" :-)
Did anybody compare the Gold vs Silver plated version of the SonarQuest power plugs? And if so, what had been the sonic differences?
I have only the Silver version and it is a very detailed/clear sounding plug. I wonder if the Gold version may be a tad smoother without loosing too much of the clarity.
From VH website "Our unique AirLok™ insulation is a proprietary form of foamed/cellular Fluoropolymer that achieves a dielectric constant of less than 1.45! By comparison, the dielectric constant of solid fluoropolymers, such as DuPont™ PTFE, FEP, and PFA (referred to as Teflon®, when licensed from DuPont) is 2.1. A perfect vacuum is 1.0?
I have all 3...Gold, Silver and Rhodium Sonar Quest. I prefer the Rhodium the most in my system. The right amount of detail and more dynamic sound. The Gold will give you a slightly warmer sound and detail will still be present, just not quite as much.
I have tried both Silver and Gold Sonarquest and found the Silver more detailed and dynamic in my system, which are traits I like to hear. But I agree that the gold is slightly warmer than the silver
I have not tried the Rhodium, so I have no comment on their sound
But, there is no wrong choice here because they are all very good, it's just the choice that suits individual ears :-)
I just wanted to add my sincere thank you to those prominent members of this thread who have put a lot of time, money, and energy into coming to some of these conclusions.
While I agree, no single solution will work for everyone's personal taste/system/etc, I am very eager to get the time to wind up some of these cables and get them cooking.
I’m surprised, that the Platinum should be more Dynamic and detailed compared to the Silver plated version. Always thought, Platinium plating is less conductive compared to Silver (best) and Gold (2nd best).
Granted - Silver is the best conductor - theoretically... - It could be related to how the outlet clamps onto the pins - if the pins on one plug were flatter than the pins on the other plug it would make a different mechanical connection that could affect dynamics - it could be how the wires are clamped into the plug.
Remember there are a few "mechanical interfaces" at play which can affect performance
I'll stick with the Silver plated, but I do not dispute Aniwolfe's observations under his conditions and setup.
made my first helical power cord this evening. Following the most updated recs.
I ran into just a few hiccups although the process went pretty smooth. Couple little things which I knew might me an issue but I was too impatient to start. For example, I used a wooden 5/16 rod to do the winding on my drill. Worked great until I tried to get the final assemble to slide off. Too much friction from the wood. Gotta find a proper fiberglass rod for the next one. And next time I may braid the 4 signal cables in a more organized fashion as opposed to my completely random and patternless braid. I also had to sort out some interference I was getting initially. The helical PC picked up a lot of interference that a Signal Cable Co power cord was causing. Removed that from the system and bam. Problem solved.
Quiet. Clear. Wow. I will say that I am extremely impressed by the sound that resulted.
It’s currently feeding my PL Integrated tube amp and it opened things up very nicely for me. The sound definitely felt bigger. Wider. More relevant. A touch more clarity. A touch more forward. But all in all, a very noticeable improvement.
In fact, I just got yelled at by the significant other for listening to to a random string album of Lana Del Ray covers too loud at 1:30 am haha. It seems my next room improvement is gonna have to be soundproof windows . I have wire on order to create my first double double IC and a set of speaker cables.
@whacky I used a wood rod on a drill and no issues. I put all 3 12 gauge wires on the rod at the same time and coiled it up that way. I used duct tape to hold the 3 wires in place. So much easier and so much time saved. The coil looked much cleaner.
Yeah I think I’m just gonna take some 600 grit and run it up and down the shaft...yup. It wasn’t that big of a problem, but considering I used solid 12 gauge thhn for the ground, and wound it nice and tight, it was a a tad difficult to slide off. Easily fixed. But I may grab a fiberglass one regardless. the wood one I have is poplar. It’s soft and seemed like it wanted to snap.
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