Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

What an incredible read!

Any thought about replacing the SC signal wire using 12g dead soft .999 silver wire (or lower) from Rio Grande?  - $13/ft.

.999 Fine Silver Round Wire, 12-Ga., Dead-Soft (riogrande.com)

Thanks...

@lionel - I have tried the Mundorf Solid Silver/gold, which is pretty close to the wire you mentioned just from a purity perspective

However, it seems there is something very special about the UP-OCC copper from either Neotech or VH Audio, because it performed better than the Mundorf.Silver/Gold(1%)

Right now the only wire that might perform better than the UP-OCC copper is the UP-OCC solid Silver wire from VH Audio, which is ..99999 purity and it is created using the UP-OCC process  which is definitely proving to provide exceptional performance

However - everybody has a budget to consider and the Riogrande Wire is a very affordable alternative when compared to the Mundorf Solid Silver and even the VH Audio Solid Copper.

I would "guestimate" its performance would be on par with the Mundorf Solid Silver/gold wire.

So - it really boils down to your budget, but this wire appears to be  worth considering

Many Thanks - Steve

Thanks Steve for your thoughts.

One more thing...

My amp uses an IcePower 1200as which is class D and FULLY BALANCED.  There have been references that the SC does NOT work with a fully balanced amp on the build page.  Am I reading this right to mean that this SC is not a good match?

@lionel - if the amp has balanced speaker outputs then the Helix cables will not work well with it, but you will not damage the amp to my knowledge

Another word used for this "fully balanced" type of design is "Symmetrical"

One member has tried the Helix with this design and said they sounded awful. Once I found out the reason I added the warning to my web site.

A lot of commercial brands of cable will not sound their best with this type of amp design.

The best approach is to use two individual wires that are NOT joined in any way and keep them about 2" apart.

Silversmith Fedelium Speaker cables might be a very good match - a pair of 10ft cables is $1400, which in todays world is not too bad. A lot of people on this forum like them

Silversmith Audio

You could also try Van den Hul D352 wire and separate the conductors, or there are even better offerings from VanDen Hul.

NOTE: Speaker cables for this design should NOT be twisted together, as with XLR Interconnect cables, because the speakers lack the circuitry that eliminates noise.

A QUESTION FOR YOU: does the manual for the amp explain what type of speaker cable should/could be used?

I have an issue with companies that omit crucial information pertaining to their products that could result in damage - e.g. quite a few solid state high current designs DO NOT like speaker cables with very high capacitance, which can drive the amp to oscillate and damage the amp. NAIM has the same issue but makes their customer aware of it on their web site.

A TOTL offering from Cardas has very high capacitance, but Cardas are not to blame because those cables work perfectly well for Tube Amps

An acquaintance blew an Ayre and a Gryphon using Cardas cables - that's $20k total - all because the amp companies DID NOT make him aware of the issue .

OK - I'll get off my soap box now :-)

Regards - Steve





.

Hey Steve - I appreciate the honesty. Down the road I will build a PC & IC with your formula. Thanks for your sharing!

To answer your question, no, my amp doesn't have a manual.  It is a Mivera Purepower built from an IcePower module (the 1200as).  

@lionel  just found Ice Power Module details - in the literature that is available online- 

The speaker output of the 200AS1 is a balanced output with two active signal lines capable of driving complex speaker loads. As the speaker output is already in a balanced configuration, bridging of two channels is not possible.

So I can confirm the Helix Cables WILL NOT sound their best with this amp

Regards - Steve

Steve, 

Not meaning to split hairs, the ICE module referred to is the 1200AS  (or 1200AS2 if a stereo amp).  I'm sure they are configured the same way.

As far as you are aware, is this compatibility concern related to the speaker cable only?

Thanks 

@maxuima95 - YES - only for the speaker cable !

Here is my understanding (and I am paraphrasing heavily here)...

• the "balanced" audio signal that comes through an XLR Interconnect (e.g. from a DAC) is "processed" by the receiving component (e.g. a pre-amp) such that any noise is removed, resulting in a single audio signal (not two)
• If the pre-amp has XLR outputs the "clean" audio signal is again "processed" into two signals 180 degrees out of phase, but there needs to be a neutral to complete the circuit
• Now in a Balanced "symmetrical" amp design, the signal comping into the XLR input is processed in the same manner as the pre-amp processed it’s XLR input
• but in the output stage of the amp a principle similar to a balanced power supply is employed, in that two signals that are 180 degrees out of phase is used to drive the speaker - BUT there is NO neutral at the output
• so if you were the speaker - the signal in one wire will effectively "pull" the voice coil and the signal in the other wire will effectively "push" the voice coil and vice versa as the signal moves from the +ve cycle to the -ve cycle.
  
• So what happens if the HELIX SPEAKER CABLES are used to connect the speaker to this type of amp - the UP-OCC Signal wire has excellent transmission capability, but the neutral cable being 2.5 times longer and only silver plated copper, does not conduct it’s 180 degree out of phase signal quite as "accurately" as the signal wire does
• This results in imperfect forces being applied to the voice coil and clarity, tone, imaging dynamics are impacted and the resulting sound is not as good as it could be
• However - the amp WILL NOT suffer any damage as a result of the Helix cables being connected.

I hope that explains things :-)

Regards - Steve

OK, so in my post on 01-20-2021 6:13pm (on page 6) I talked about removing the insulation from the Neotech and VH Audio wires for the signal wires of my interconnects. I said at the end of the post that I would provide an update on the burn-in process - this is IT :-)

So today, I was only planning on listening casually and I had not listened to an album by Colin Blunstone for a while, so I pulled it out of its sleeve and plonked it on the turntable..

As the "needle dropped" the sound was breathtaking. I had never heard details or imaging antwhere near as good as this - EVER !!!

So after listening to the album, I thought what about the digital rig - is that gonna be as good???
- it has identical cables made around the same time and had a little more burn-in under it’s belt

Since I subscribe to Amazon Prime, I searched for Colin Blunstone and as it turns out they had a few tracks

Playing those tracks simply confirmed that my digital rig was very close to my analogue rig and provided the same spacious and detailed sound.

Now I don’t know if burn-in is complete, but based on this performance - it’s a good way into the process and sounding pretty amazing.

I remember the very first pair of Helix Speaker cables I made - they had a similar impact - a sort of "What The Heck" response.

Today was yet another WTH day, and in between there has been many moments where the improvements were discernable but not quite in the same league as this one.

Up to this point, I was not planning on upgrading my web site with this version of the Helix simply because of the possibility of the bare wires oxidizing and possibly forcing a rewire a few years down the road.

But the impact of this change warrants publication on my web site for all to enjoy AND from my current observations of how well the bare wire seems to be holding up I think that publication is a must.

The sound my system is producing is amazing me more everyday - i have NEVER heard anything this good and I have listened to systems upwards of $300k with over 30k in cables alone. By comparison my system MSRP is around 17k including cables and stand.

I can only imagine the sound some other members must be getting from their systems :-)

Now the only thing left...

• I used to use a version number to denote a new release - like MK I, MK II,etc...
• with the latest version I changed from a version number to a new name - The Helix IMAGE, because of its outstanding imaging
• so, do I call this one - The Naked Helix? or Helix au Naturel? or ???

Time will tell :-)

FYI - I have adopted the bare wire inside a Teflon (or PVC) tube approach on ALL my cables. For the signal or live wires I use

• 1 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper on power cables
• 1 x 14 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper on speaker cables
• 2 x 18 gauge Neotech AND VH Audio UP-OCC copper wire on the interconnects
• The neutral remains Silver plated stranded Mil-Spec wire
• I am toying with a 2 x 14 gauge Neotech UP-OCC live conductor for a power cable - still contemplating this one

If you haven’t tried the Helix using the bare wire inside a Teflon tube approach - give it a whirl - you WILL NOT regret it.

It is a significant improvement, with absolutely stunning results

Regards - Steve

@williewonka 

Have you tried a Naked Solid Silver cable yet? Do you think you would need to replace the wire down the road?

@aniwolfe - the quick answer - Not in the Teflon tube.

I did use the Mundorf 2 x 18 gauge Mundorf Solid Silver + 1% gold in cotton sleeve for IC's a couple of iterations ago

• that was replaced with 2 x 18 gauge VH Audio UP-OCC solid copper with Air Lok Insulation
• and now 2 x 18 VH Audio or Netoech NAKED UP-OCC solid copper in Teflon tube
• both were superior to the Mundorf

Since I now had  surplus Mundorf Silver+gold wire, I decided to recycle it by replacing the1 x 12 gauge Duelund stranded tinned copper wire that was inside my power distribution box with 4 strands of the Mundorf wire in cotton sleeve - which did improve things

• that has now been replaced by 1 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC solid copper with the Teflon insulation.
• which proved to be superior to the solid silver

Each time, the UP-OCC copper outperformed the Mundorf silver+gold wire.

based on those observations I believe the OCC copper provides superior performance over most solid silver wires available 

• with the exception of UP-OCC silver wire from VH audio.
• Neotech also produces UP-OCC silver but in a much lighter gauge

I did try 1 x 18 gauge VH Audio solid silver wire with AirLok insulation in two power cables for my low power source components, which provided better sound...

• but that has now been replaced with 1 x 12 gauge Neotech solid UP-OCC copper inside a PVC tube (but Teflon would have been a better choice).

RE: NUMBER OF STRANDS...
Whilst it appears that a double strand of wire seems to be beneficial, increasing the number of strands beyond two does not appear to provide much more in terms of sonic performance - it just costs more

• at present the VH Audio UP-OCC solid silver is only available up to 18 gauge
• the Neotech UP-OCC is an even lighter gauge
• so to use it for power cables would require 4 (or more) strands to equate to 12 gauge
• this would increase costs significantly
• but would it provide much better performance?

I do have a $LIMIT to what I am prepared to spend on cables and I think I may have reached it.

You also have to consider diminishing returns

• the naked UP-OCC copper in Teflon tube  is providing stunning performance
• so how much improvement would UP-OCC solid silver achieve???

RE: OXIDATON...
SO how much of an impact might the oxidation on the solid copper in Teflon be???

• to this point that is the BIG unknown
• but if I think about the copper used on buildings - it takes about 5 years exposure to the elements for the green patina to take hold
• my wire is inside is sealed Teflon tube with very little space for air
• I do not think I will be replacing wire within a 10-15 year period
• by then I will probably be past caring
  
• but I am monitoring its progress monthly
• to date (after a month) it seems to have stalled
• The speaker cables have been several months and still very bright

However - If anyone has the budget to try the VH Audio solid silver - give it a try - you'll probably get 20-30 years before the silver sulfide (i.e. the black tarnish) impacts sound quality.

Hope that answers you question :-)

Regards - Steve

Steve,

How do you remove the Teflon from the Neotech wire without damaging the wire itself? I think what I'll do, when I purchase more wire, is buy the Neotech in PVC to save some money. The PVC is just going to be stripped off.

Thanks, Chris

There’s SOST-12 listed on the official site of Neotech, though pretty much nobody would like to import such 12 gauge UP-OCC solid silver wire for obvious reasons:

http://neotechcable.com/product9.php
https://wp.neotechcable.com/up-occ-hook-up-wire/

So far I could find a couple of online stores with SOST-12 and we’re talking about 3,500 RMB / meter here:

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=630686893004

And then it’s NT$11,033 / meter (almost 400 bucks) here but as usual a certain agree of wiggle room could be expected:

https://www.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21821076194416

Finally it’s kinda like "priceless" on this Polish site:

https://diraudio.pl/diraudio-jako-autoryzowany-partner-marki-neotech/

Like what Steve mentioned before, it ain’t exactly practical to go for a price range like that unless we could somehow justify the expenses. Maybe an "extremely resolving" system would still benefit from such a substantial investment, though going THAT far might not be worth it.

When it comes to expensive parts, Duelund might not have the best wires out there but their CAST silver / copper caps should be fantastic choices as bypass caps. I guess that we should also pay quite a bit of attention to the PSU side once our cables are mostly taken care of.

@massagevermont - Chris - all I do is take a Utility knife like this one

Internet’s Best Snap-Off Utility Knife - Regular - Set of 3 - Belt Clip - Retractable Razor Knife Set - Box Cutter Locking Razor Knife, Utility Knives - Amazon Canada

• lay the wire on a flat surface - you only need about a 12"-18" surface
• Lay the blade flat on the wire and then lift the blunt side of the blade up to create around a 5 degree angle with the sharp edge on the insulation
• slide the blade along the wire to remove a thin strip of the insulation about 4-5 inches at a time
• Once a thin strip has been removed for the entire length - peel off the remaining insulation

It is very easy and does very little damage to the wire - much better and a lot faster than wire strippers

Hope that helps - Steve

Just to clarify - I am not "anti-silver" - I used solid silver for many years and preferred it.

But the UP-OCC solid copper is so darn good, I now find it difficult to justify the cost of silver, for what might be a small ROI

I know others on this thread prefer silver and perhaps I would spring for it if I didn’t have a couple of other expensive hobbies that take some funds away from this one - oh, and a happy wife - at present :-)

If it weren’t for that I would probably try it

Just thought I should clarify things - Steve

Thanks, Steve.

One more question if you don't mind. What gauge PTFE tubing do you use? For instance, if the wire is 12 awg, do you use a 10 awg tube for it? If 18 awg, would you use a 16 awg tube?

Thanks again for all the fine detail you've provided to make these fabulous cables.

Cheers, Chris

Chris - I use the one below for both IC's and power cables. It is sufficiently wide to provide adequate space around a 2 x 18 gauge twisted conductor and a 1 x 12 gauge or 1 x 14 gauge solid wire, that way one tube fits all

PTFE 10 Tubing - Thin Wall Teflon Tubing In A Variety Of Gauges - (takefiveaudio.com)

Inside diameter is 0.106"
Outside Diameter is 0.13"

It fits snuggly inside the Helix of the interconnect, so be careful of the RCA housing being able to slide over the Helix at the plug.

I use a small piece of Heatshrink about 1/4" long to seal the end of the tube to the wire, but Hot glue might be a better alternative if you can get it into the tube. You can peal any excess off the outside of the tube leaving more room for the Helix wire

Regards - Steve

Nice long read . I’m not really convinced that cables make big difference but would love to try them. Anyone around Chicago that can build some cables for me ? 😃

I have now updated my web site with instruction and images of the process for removing the insulation and installing the Teflon tube

Just click on the link to The HELIX IMAGE (Air) on the home page at...

My Audio Alchemy (image99.net)

It also shows a simple insulation stripping jig that makes stripping the wire so much easier

All other instructions remain the same

Regards - Steve

Great thread.
I was wondering how to find if my amplifier uses balanced speaker outputs. It's a Hypex Ncore and the discussion above about the IceEdge one vives me pause.
Thanks

@abolive - I just took a look at the Hypex web site and there was no mention of it using a Symmetrical Balanced Design, so I think you are OK using the Helix Speaker Cables.

But from what I read the unit does requires a balanced input, so the single ended Helix Cable is not compatible - you will need to build the XLR Helix instead

Regards

WIRE PROVIDER UPDATE !!!

I have just learned that Parts Connexion sells a 6N OCC bare wire
- it’s more affordable than Neotech and VH Audio
- AND less work if you are building the HELIX IMAGE (Air)

They do not have a 12 gauge (for power cables) but you could do a double barrel approach using 12 x 14 gauge (equivalent to 11 gauge) for the live conductor - but it IS a more expensive option to the 1 x 12 gauge Neotech wire I am currently using

OCC6N Wire 14awg 6N OCC Solid Core Copper BARE (partsconnexion.com)

HELIX CABLE UPDATE:

I have just updated a pair of speaker cables to the (Air) option using bare 2 x 18 UP-OCC Copper (VH-Audio) and I am not really hearing any improvement compared to the bare 1 x 14 gauge Neotech - they both sound awesome.

I have the wire on order to try a bare 2 x 16 gauge (effective 13 gauge) power cable live conductor to see if the double barreled approach yields some benefits , so stay tuned for that update in a couple of weeks  

Regards - Steve

Good to know, thanks...

Steve I think you should consider this for ICs or whatever cable has two conductors on the positive. Don’t twist two bare conductors together and put in one Teflon tube. Put each bare conductor in a smaller Teflon tube and twist the pair. This is a true double IC and not more like a stranded or heavier gauge conductor. Food for thought. This must be done on the USB data conductors of coarse.

i have done this with silk rather than Teflon with outstanding results. 

Digital Coax Helix Air Update:

I finally made some time last week in upgrading my already outstanding Digital Coax Cable to the "Air" version utilizing 2 separate teflon tubes slightly twisted; placed on my Audiodharma Cable cooker for a few days and another 4 days of constant signal/settling.

As Steve has noted, more clarity, transparency, wider/deeper soundstage, sharper image focus and music just flows much easier allowing the listener to take in more of the artist intent.

I have owed and evaluated around 10 Coax and None are even close to my double or "Air" Helix Digital Coax; they all sounded clinical and digital but the Helix is full body, musical and Real sounding...

Wig

@williewonka thank you for your reply :)

Hi everyone!
I will start building my Helix image Air interconnects over the next days. I've been out shopping for a few things already and I can't wait to have them finished!
Basically I will be swapping a freebie USB printer cable, a freebie pair of 1 dollar analog interconnects and a digital SPDIF for these.
Unfortunately I wont be able to use KLEI plugs or the recomended cables at the moment, just normal naked solid core copper cable. But I think I'll be allright for now. I will upgrade later. 

 I want to thank Steve and everyone else involved in the project. You guys are the best!

@brunorivademar - even using just bare copper wire you should hear a significant improvement in details, clarity and image size, mainly due to the reduced noise of crosstalk between conductors and noise generated by insulation

Eventually moving to better quality wire and connectors will bring much improved dynamics, larger image, improved clarity, more details.

But it will be educational to hear about YOUR cables - i.e.

• wires/connectors used
• your observations on the improvements of sound quality
• system components

They will assist other readers thinking of dipping their toes into the waters of the Helix :-)

If you have any questions just ask - someone is always willing to help

Regards - Steve

I'll report back in a few days once the cables are completed and given 100 hours to burn in.
All cables (spdif, usb, analog rca) will be constructed using 99.99% 18ga solid core copper cable bulk in a double double configuration. One teflon tube for each signal wire and 1 cotton  sleeve for each neutral wire. Rca connectors will be gold plated brass, nothing special. This is the poor man's version of the helix lol!!

My system is pretty basic . 
Dedicated windows laptop with ssd drive and fidelizer using Tidal --> Schiit Eitr USB to SPDIF converter --> Theta Ds Pro Prime --> NAD C316BEE amp --> Diy speaker cables using Mogami W3104 and copper plugs + steelshot for resonance control --> Holimar Reference tower speakers ( Argentinian brand, not very known worldwide.
all my system is fed by a DIY star wired power strip and counter helix diy power cables using a Shunyata helix patent. industrial grade conectors. TT is a Thorens TD 124 mk ii in a high mass plinth.

 Thanks for the help and i'll keep you updated. 

Gents, I'm currently using all Mundorf Silver Gold wire in my interconnects and AES cable, thinking about upgrading to the OCC coppers that you found superior. Can you share in sound quality terms how they are better than the Mundorf Silver Gold?

I'm not really looking to peel the wires into bare wires, how much would I be giving up if I just used the VH Audio OCC wire w/ airlok as is?

Lastly any recommendations on XLR plugs?

XLR ?
smooth and cheap - Vampire gold plated
high resolution and neutral - ETI Kyro
cheap but a bit edgy - Neutrik silver plated

I‘m not a big fan of 18g for IC cables.
There is a reason why all high end cable manufacturers use a multiple of 24g

just my 2 cents

@mawe Thanks, can you elaborate on why multiple of 24g sound better than 18g? Wouldn't thicker conductor offer lower resistance?

@divertiti
there is more than resistance...
electrons travelling on a conductor...
there is an effect, called skin effect, which basically means, that higher frequency are manly travelling on the outer surface of a conductor and lower frequency more inside a conductor.
For audio frequencies 20Hz to 16kHz the most balance is achieved with wire gauge of 24 (0,5 mm dia).
With thicker dia this gets out of balance.
Some people like this kind of „sound“ more.
Im my opinion this is very much depending on the quality of your equipment. If it has a tendency of being „sharp“ or edgy or on the lean side, thicker wire will „cure“ or „tame“ this at the expense of loosing micro details.
To reduce resistance many cable companies use multiple runs of 24 AWG wires. My max wire gauges are:
IC 22 AWG
SC 20 AWG
PC 18 AWG

For balanced IC (only when your sending and receiving equipment is truly balanced/ symmetrical) I prefer the VH Audio receipt with 2x 24AWG for + and - signal. GND can be 18 AWG.

The Helix design is superior for unbalanced RCA ICs, as ist reduces noise and crosstalk.
But for balanced ICs noise is not an issue and keeping + and - separated as with the VH Audio receipt makes more sense for lower capacitance and crosstalk and inductance.

BTW,
this „skin effect“ together with the insulation material is responsible for high frequency performance of the cables.

PVC coated conductors sound more „muffled“ since PVC has a high dielectrics and „ restricts“ or „ interacts“ with the electron flow on the surface of the conductor.
This gets better with insulation material which has a lower dielectrics constancy like PE, even better PTFE, more better foamed PTFE, cotton and best is an „air gap“, slimmer wire in bigger PTFE tube.

This is being discussed here now for some time and people having positive results.
Especially when using thicker wire it is even more important to reduce the effect of the insulation dampening effect on the outer surface of the conductor.

In one of my first posts here I brought this idea up to use a PTFE tube.

Multiple 18 gauge simply does not sound as good in power cords as we have been there and done that. Not in the Helix design. Not even close in our listening tests. Same is true with ICs and speaker cables using the Helix design. Multiple 22 gauge does not sound as good as two 18 gauge. Been there, done that with my own line of cables and now the Helix. In my own Duelund line 16 gauge sounded better than 20 gauge for ICs. 12 gauge sounded better than 16 gauge for speaker cables.

With the Helix design the same holds true. Just because others do something different does not make it right or sound better in this design. The proof is not just found in white papers or books, but also through the time consuming and laborious process of building and carefully listening over time. We have done that and put the hours of hard work into this process.

No shortcuts here, just real man hours, hard work, careful listening over break in time, money and a big dose intentional curiosity.

I've replaced all my AC cords and ICs with Helix designs and am very happy with the results.  Now it's time for speaker cables, and I am very interested in trying the "Air" version.  If I'm using bare 14 gauge OCC copper in a teflon tube (for the 'hot' lead) do I still need to use the beads?  Seems like if the bare OCC wire is spaced away from the neutral / ground wire by the tube then the beads would be superfluous? Anyone tried this without the beads?

@walkern - I have tried the speaker cables without beads, but I prefer them with beads - the sound is just a little more relaxed, with slightly improved clarity and with a slightly larger image - it was NOT a huge difference

But that is with MY ears on MY system. And it was a couple of iterations ago, so I was not not using the bare wire in Teflon tube - it was using the 2 x 18 VH Audio with Airlok insulation

I guess the thing to do would be to try it without the beads and see if you like the sound.

Let us know how they turn out

Regards - Steve

@divertiti - WRT UP-OCC bare wire - from  my post  dated  02-14-2021 8:05am

https://www.partsconnexion.com/product50050.html

Regards

Don’t know if it’s because of the winter weather or they’re being really nice but the Neotech wire and KLE connectors I ordered from Parts Connexion was shipped next day air and for free and in my possession. Just need the mil spec wire and some tubing and I’m ready to build some double helix ic’s.

I’m with @grannyring

• the lighter gauges do not sound as good as 2 x 18 gauge for interconnects
• my a 4 x 18 gauge copper or silver conductor did not sound as good as my 1 x 12 gauge for power cables
• I’m about to try 2 x 16 gauge bare wire for power cables
• I’m still evaluating 2 x 18 gauge for speaker cables compared to my 1 x 14 speaker cables - it is extremely close.

There seems to be something about the double conductor approach for live and signal conductors when used in the Helix design, but I cannot think of a reason - as yet

Even before this thread started, myself and others in Europe had tried 1 x 24, 1 x 22, 1 x 20, 1 x 18 and 1 x 16 gauge wires, and 1 x18 gauge came out on top.

I’ve also read of many "cable theories" on this forum

• my favorite is the one that cites a minimum length for a Digital cable of just over a meter as being optimal
• but my 18 inch HELIX SPDIF proved otherwise

Now,  I do not dispute the observations of others that have great success with smaller gauge wires. HOWEVER, they are NOT using the Helix geometry.

Regards - Steve

Just ordered 6 helix Power Cords after reading this thread including one for my Sony Video Projector.  I sure hope these are as good as advertised and my last PC purchase.  

How did you “order” them if I may ask? I assume you mean you are going to build them? 

@williewonka and @grannyring  Thanks for the input as always. If I want to go for convenience and buy a ready made wire, is the VH-Audio OCC copper with airlok better or the Neotech OCC with Teflon better? How does the Parts Express naked wire compare to those two when they are all stripped naked? If I can get away with ready made wire and not sacrifice too much, then I will go for that, if using the teflon tube is indeed much better, then I will suck it up and do it.

@ divertiti - I have tried both Neotech and VH Audio UP-OCC wires in identical interconnects and I was unable to tell the difference when both wires are bare - i.e. as a twisted pair.

I cannot find Parts Express bare UP-OCC wire - please provide a link

Parts Connexion does have a bare UP-OCC bare wire

The UP-OCC process is quite precise and the Parts Connexion bare UP-OCC wire SHOULD BE of a comparable quality to both Neotech and VH Audio.

But I think the improvements observed are more related to the insulation (or lack of), when opting for the Teflon tube method, which contributes greatly to the clarity, details and image, regardless of wire brand

The Bare wire in the Teflon tube was, for me, the icing on the cake!

Compared to some of the other changes I’ve made over the past 8 - 10 months this was one of the more significant.

Before deciding to post my observations of the Bare Wire approach I applied a lot of thought about the issue of oxidation, but as I proceeded changing all my cables I was able to see how the oxidation over that time was much less of an issue than originally anticipated, i.e. provided the ends of the Teflon tube was sealed.

It became evident over that time, that this particular change was well worth the additional effort, since the risk of oxidation was in fact quite low and the benefits so compelling

So - "The Juice", was definitely worth "The Squeeze"

Hope that helps - Steve

AND NOW - FOR THE TECHNICALLY MINDED....

Unwanted Energy Storage in Cables - Dielectric Constant | Lectromec

A very good CONCISE (and easy to understand) article 

Happy Reading - Steve

Here Are my impressions after working with both the Neotech wire and the VH audio wire with the Teflon insulation in tact. I find the Neotech wire to be warmer, bigger soundstage, and slightly better dynamics. I am a sucker for a big stage and warmth so therefore prefer the Neotech.

The VH Audio has more air and sparkle and also reveals inner details slightly better.

In terms of stripping off the Teflon and the sonic differences between that and leaving the Teflon on the Neotech wire, here is what I found in my system based on my preferences. Removing the Teflon opened up the sound a tad and improved details and resolution. However, I found this could be too much of a good thing in my system. I lost a little of the darkness and warmth that I do like with the Teflon in place. In the end I preferred a stripped Air USB combined with the Teflon left in place on my ICs. . I found that balance to be perfect for me and my particular taste.

My system is very resolving and easily reflects any small change I make. I am certainly biased towards the warm, rich and full bodied end of the sound spectrum. I even like a little bit of darkness with the stage set back. I will easily sacrifice detail for warmth and a midrange centric sort of sound. My ears are VERY sensitive to upper mids and are easily upset if there is the slightest bit of extra energy there. 

I have a system that tends to be a little on the bright side, and emphasizes any glare or upper mid grit or grain.  For my I.C.s I found that if I replaced the silver plated mil-spec ground wire with Neotech stranded copper with teflon, that combo gave me the benefits of the helix geometry while also keeping my system from getting too revealing of less than ideal recordings. I have never tried the VH audio wire, but it sounds like that might work exceptionally well in my system too.  I am also happy to sacrifice a little detail and resolution for warmth and musicality.  The stranded copper ground wire didn't add any mid-bass emphasis or loosen up the bass in general, so the effect seemed limited to a more neutral / relaxed upper midrange and treble. 

HELIX IMAGE (Air) power cable update - from my earlier post dated 02-14-2021 8:05am above

So the wire arrived this week for my 2 x 16 gauge version of the Helix IMAGE (Air) power cable and I’ve had the cables in the system for a couple of days burning in but the improvements where noticeable from the first track.

The old cables had 1 x 12 gauge BARE Neotech UP=OCC solid copper inside Teflon tube with cotton sleeve.

The new cables have 2 x 16 gauge BARE Neotech UP=OCC solid copper twisted together inside Teflon tube with cotton sleeve. The Teflon tube was the same diameter as on the 1 x 12 gauge version
i.e.
PTFE 10 Tubing - Thin Wall Teflon Tubing In A Variety Of Gauges - (takefiveaudio.com)

Since I was just upgrading the existing cables the Neutral remain unchanged - 2 x 12 gauge silver plated mil-spec stranded copper

Well, the Schroeder Double Barrel approach has triumphed yet again !

The improved articulation of the music was the most noticeable, with a more expansive image, where the placement of the instruments just seemed to be very precise, with pinpoint accuracy. The old 1 x 12 power cables were very good, just not THIS good.

There now seems to be more layers I had not noticed before and on some tracks I now hear little things e.g. bell strikes that I had not noticed before - so clarity had improved also.

As I listened, there was a nice smoothness to the upper end, especially the violins. The mid’s had a nice natural fullness to them and the bass went deeper but again with even more textures than previous iterations of the cables.

By comparison, the older cables makes me think they were perhaps a little on the "Clinical" side, because I very much like this new warmth.

Will the 2 x 16 gauge version work for Amps?

• right now, this appears to improve the low end a little
• however, the improvements over the existing 1 x 12 gauge version were no where near as apparent as with the source components
• I think I will move to a 2 x 14 gauge version for the amp to see if it yields any significant improvements.

The difference in findings between the source components and the amp is no real surprise.
Since my Bryston B135 amp has seperate transformers/power supplies for PRE-Amp and L & R channels. Whereas the power supplies in my source components are not of the same ablity.

I chose 2 x 16 gauge simply because it fit into this Teflon Tube that I had on hand

So why does 2 x 16 work better than 1 x 12 ???
Here’s an extract from the article in this link...
electricity - Do electrons jump from one wire to another if they are of different materials? - Physics Stack Exchange

If electrons were not able to flow between two different conductors in contact with one another, we would not be able to make any connections in an electrical circuit that feeds loads. So obviously they can flow between conductors in contact with one another (twisted,or otherwise).

The term "jump" invokes the wrong impression that electrons need to leap through the air from one conductor to another, although as explained below arcing is possible at the conductor interface.

Although electrons don’t have to "jump" between the conductors, it is more difficult for electrons to cross between two physically different conductors due to microscopic irregularities at the contact surfaces with points of contact and areas of non contact. Overall, this gives rise to what is referred to as contact resistance at the interface. Contact resistance, which is greater than the resistance of the conductor themselves,

So taking this into account, even IF the two wires ARE touching it is "almost as if" they were insulated from each other until they reach the ends, where the solder provide a better "path" for electrons to move across

So then, with two strands of wire twisted together - the impedance of the "conductor" is half that of a single wire.

But the conundrum here is - why aren’t 4 wires even better?

I have tried 4 x 18 gauge VH Audio UPP-OCC copper in AirLok insulation (effectively a 12 gauge cable) and it was not as good as the 1 x 12 gauge in Teflon, but of all the combinations tried 2 x 12 seems superior - strange ???

Getting the very best out of the Helix IMAGE (Air) Power cables is very much dependent on the components in the system.

You could opt for a single "architecture" e.g. 2 x 14 gauge Bare wire inside Teflon for all power cables.

You may opt to insert each wire inside it’s own teflon tube or twist them together inside a single tube

Personally - i am going to stick with the 2 x 16 gauge in a single tube for Source components.

And perhaps a 2 x 14 gauge bare wire twisted together inside this larger teflon tube
Convoluted Teflon Tubing - Convoluted Teflon Tubing Flexes Without Kinking - (takefiveaudio.com)

As always - I will keep you updated on the outcome

But try the Double Shotgun method - it works - REALLY WELL !!!

Cheers - Steve

@williewonka

Steve, just for clarification on these pc’s. You are using 2x16g wires in their own teflon tube for the hot/line and 2x16g wires in their own teflon tube for the neutral and 2x16g mil spec wires for the ground?

Thomas

Sorry, I just looked again at your image page and see what the design is. Trying to wrap my head around all the designs of each of the cables is a bit daunting at the moment but once I start building things will get clearer.

I have been meaning to make these cables (at least the speaker cables) for a long time. I have been following the thread. Steve and others have put so much work and time for everyone. THANK YOU.

I feel like things got confusing lately though when new cable options were talked about. I wonder if is there anyway to update the cable selection on your website Steve? I feel bad asking you this when you put too much effort already.