Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

I was just commenting on the quality of the Jupiter wire in general as well as their capacitors. I have not used Jupiter wire in the helix builds.

@toolbox149 - Same for me as stated above by @grannyring, i.e., no helix builds. However, on the caps, I was an early adopter of the copper foil and have those in all of my SMc Audio rebuilds of former McCormack gear. I also have a neighbor who rebuilds/refurbishes guitar amps and he likes using their vintage sounding caps. Good stuff, and a really good company to work with, IMO.

@toolbox149 

I was just commenting on the quality of the Jupiter wire in general as well as their capacitors.  I have not used Jupiter wire in the helix builds. 

@toolbox149 - I have used quite a bit of the Jupiter wire, including the silver, but mostly the copper. I have made Chris VH’s ICs using the silver wire but eventually replaced those with Furutech bulk OCC IC cables. However, I am currently using braided speaker cables made from Jupiter copper-in-cotton wire, which sound great in my system.

Other wire they offer that I have had really good success with is their 8 x 28awg, 6N copper cable with cotton insulation. I have made IC cables using that wire and those sounded so good an audio equipment manufacturer purchased a pair from me for use in their own system. If you look at that cable, you will see that four of the wires are orientated in one direction and four wires in the other direction so you can group them accordingly to make one positive and one negative aggregate grouping. I used expensive Furutech XLR connectors on the ICs I made, but have since been using less expensive DH Labs connectors on my cables, that IMO sound just as good.

So Granny,  I’ve only incorporated Steve’s double helix method in my IC wiring, not in my speaker wires.  How do you/would you use the Jupiter wires in your speaker wiring?   No tubes? Strip them and put them in tubes? 
 

Thanks,

Tim

I agree with Mitch I really like the Jupiter copper and silver bulk wire and highly recommend many of their products!

Sorry Tecknik. I’ve built about 20 pair of ICs using the double helix method. The first 4 used PFTE tubing. All subsequent tubing was vinyl. Having performed some very serious evaluations, my opinion is there is absolutely no difference in sound quality between using PFTE tubing and the vinyl tubing. YMMV

Tim

In my experience with the Helix design the tubing needs to be PFTE Tubing for a much cleaner sound also research how the very top cables are done with insulation, shielding and the different materials used. 
The layering of the materials are what’s really important. 
Good luck, have fun. 

For anybody looking for heat shrink tubing or expandable sleaving, try:

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/electrical-lighting/

Also, I bought all of my clear tubing from:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/vinyltubing.php

Search for vinyl tubing. It’s the same tubing used for protecting wiring in airplanes. AKA Spaghetti Tubing

Both sites are economical.

Tim

Thanks Mitch.  Did you use the 5N Silver wire with the cotton insulation?  That was the only silver wire they offer in 18awg and 20awg.
I have always bought bare, solid wire for the signal wires in all of my projects. I’m not sure what is the best way to deal with the attached insulation.
If you (or anybody else) used these in a Helix Geometry type of cable, how did you incorporate the cotton insulation?  Did you remove the cotton?  Just use the cotton insulation without utilizing PTFE tubes?  Put the wire with the insulation attached into the PTFE tubes?
 I remember Steve was cutting the insulation off the solid wires, early on in the Double Helix threads.  Is that still the way to use insulated wire?

Thanks,

Tim

@toolbox149 - Jupiter Condenser Co. - I have always found their wire to sound musical and never harsh.

As of today, where are the better places to buy high quality solid silver wire?  I”m familiar with Parts Connexion and Tempo Electric.  Any others?
Anybody buy the silver wire from Tempo?  They advertise a 99.99% pure silver wire.

Thanks, 

Tim

Very good topic. I'll put in my five pence.
Even though I use diy wires a lot, I am still sure that they will not replace good factory brands.

I played around with neotech, and although it was interesting, it wasn't my sound.

I switched to duelund silver, and this is what is closer to my spirit.
I can confidently recommend Duelund Silver Foil & silk in oil wire as a signal wire. For the ground, I used Jantzen Silver Plated Copper Wire Speaker Cable. For those who want to save money, there is an excellent offer in the form of Duelund Flat Pure Silver Foil bare wire. For it, buy a 2.0mm pfte sleeve (I haven’t found a thicker one, but that’s not a problem. Just take this sleeve and run a ruler along the entire length, making it flat. The tape will fit in).

Also, don’t skimp on connectors. Otherwise, everything is a waste.

I also want to say that I successfully used it as a digital IC, but for this I just bought a budget digital IC with good connectors to use them for my purposes.
Remember, good brands of connectors also have their own sound, so this is another place where you can get good connectors inexpensively.

Hi,

After reading a lot these pages as well as Steve's pages, I finally made my first 2 power cables, which I'm using for the power amplifiers (Schiit Try).

As I live in Europe, I couldn't order some of the wires you mentioned here, so I used 2 Neotech SOCP-14 wires for the signal, with regards to connectors I used ieGO 8075 (Rhodium plated).

I used these power cables to replace stock/standard power cables, I am happy with the result. Now I plan to make 2 more cables for the DAC and maybe the preamplifier, but using Neotech CU+Ag OCC wires this time.
 

Special thanks to Steve for his site with instructions, as well as to Cameron who helped me when I started this journey :)

All the best,
Marius

@abolive - just to assure you further - If you make a cable using good solid copper wire, the cable will adopt a "natural. curve" once attached to components.

You can of course use a tighter curve if space is a premium, but even a really tight bend in the cable should not approach the right angled  "L" shape reqquired to fracture the wire  when used under "Normal Use" 

To get copper wire to fracture, I had to use a pair of pliers and force an "L" shape in the wire, and then wigggle it back and forth several times

But to be on the safe side, just allow the cable to show you it's natural curve and use that

Regards - Steve

@williewonka thank you for your reply, I feel reassured 😊

@abolive - generally speaking - you are correct - i.e. for power cables.

Those regulations are primarily to protect the consumer and guard against cable/component failure

Any cable that connects a component to the mains for general sale has to conform to a set of guidelines that pertain to flexibility, insulations and current carrying capability, etc... This is because the regulators do not know what use/abuse that cables will be subject too. 

• e.g. there are cables that can withstand harsh chemical abuse - like Furutech - which is UL Certified
• but there are also cables designed specifically for audio use - such as DH Labs.- which does not appear to be UL Certified

The "deterrent" seems to be UL or CSA or BSA Certification, which is normally required by insurance companies. However - the power cable on that lamp from china sitting on oyur bedside tables is probably not UL certified

If you look at my website you will see warnonogs pertaiing to building the Helix cables.

Audio cables are not "generally" subject ot a lot of flexing. and the higher the quality of copper used will allow the capability to be flexed more often.

If you build the cable yourself you should have a pretty good idea of the kind of abuse it can take, so it is up to YOU to make sure it will perofrm well.

Solid wire can take a lot of bending and straightening before it fails, so it should be OK for audiophile use

Regards

Regarding solid wire for power cables, aren't we afraid of possible failure? It is verboten by many country regulations 

@sasho - please use this wire calculator in furure to calculate wire diameter

Wire Gause Calculator

As yu can see the diameter of the 14 gague wire wil be 1.6277 mm

so the inside diameter of the tube should bs around 25% larger, which is 2.034mm

You will not get an exact match, so opt for the one closest to the calulated amount

Regards - Steve

Steve,

Please recommend optimum Inner diameter for PTFE tube to use with 14 AWG Neotech OCC solid core wire / with PVC Insulation which will be stripped out /

That will be used for producing Hellix speaker cable using 2 x 14 AWG Neotech Positive and 1 x 10 AWG Mil spec sivler plated copper wire

@norco74 and @pindac - gentlemen, thank you for your posts above. They contain excellent information, in that they provide alternate thoughts/products/feedback for other readers to ponder and try out.

As I have said many time throughout this thread, if you have a favourite wire or connector, then try it. The forumala posted on my web site is just a starting place.

But for me it is also the final state of my nation. The expense (time and money) has been significant and I like the sound I now have, so for the time being I’m sitting back to enjoy the music.

I would encourage people to try different wies and connectors, because they all make a difference. You may find a combination that may or may not suit your ears, so be aware that it can be time consuming and costly in order to select te combination your ears find most satisfying.

The really nice thing is - the Helix Geometry makes those differences very noticeable, which makes everything a little easier.

Regards - Steve

I have built the Helix cables for a few years now and have tried the many combinations suggested as they were made available on Steve’s site. I have recently switchover a Neotech 2 x AWG18 UPOCC power cable for a 14 AWG Duelund PVC on my Bryston 3.14 DAC streamer. I am quite surprised by the results. The Duelund seems to handle the sound texture way better than the Neotech version. Less harsh on the high frequencies, better instruments separation and a small increase in the spatial details department. My guess is that the cable type have more noticeable effects on low level source components than preamp and amp. Experimenting is the only way of finding what suits your ears.best.

@williewonka you asked "Any Thoughts? Steve"

I know that there is a spirit of investigation on this thread and there will be discoveries made as a incremental way forward and quite possibly backwoods.

I introduced a individual to PC Triple C, they have not looked back, they also know my interest in Helix Design and FINEMET as an alternative to Ferrite.

With all the good things already happened they bought into SAEC SL 5000 Cables, which I feel ticks boxes in relation to my own interests shared. .

The Supplied RCA Connectors were compared to KLE RCA's and KLE were the chosen type.

The investigative mind did not rest and other RCA's were considered of which WBT Low Eddy was a selection.  

This RCA was the new chosen design and the idea to couple it to a purpose produced same design interface Connector took on a must try out on a list.

This is where I was introduced to the evolving use of SL 5000 CCC > OEM RCA  and SL 5000 CCC > WBT's. ( I missed the period of KLE's being in use)

I trust the system owners judgement and I know the system very well.

The WBT's used as a the Cable Termination and on Chassis has changed my whole thought process about what can be achieved and what really can be achieved, the impression left is very good.

Maybe it is just one of those leaps one has to take, there is also the analogy where if nothing is ventured nothing is gained.   

@williewonka, great thanks. I will be visiting my home country South Africa for a few weeks and will take the speaker cables, a PC and a pair of IC's with. I will also be visiting my mates at 'the old farts club' a bunch of good guys who are not cable deniers and will be able to report on their impressions when I return. One of them owns Mark Levinson monos and Magico 5 speakers so it will be interesting and fun.

Thank you @williewonka 

@lemonhaze - actually, that ratio is what is posted on my website.👍

If required you could reduce it to 2:1, because unlike interconnects, where the signal and any induced noise would be amplified, making that noise an issue, whereas any induced rfi/emi induced into the speaker cable would not be heard above the amplified signal from the Amp, so the number of turns is not as important.

So, interconnects a ratio of 3.1 is recommended

And for speaker cables 2.5:1 is recommended

Regards

@abolive - that is correct

@lemonhaze - the ratio, 2.5:1, will work well

.regards, Steve

@williewonka   Thank you very much,

Yes I was thinking of doubling only the signal wires.

When you say twisting in opposite directions, it means clockwise for the +ve and the anti-clockwise pour the -ve?

@williewonka, thanks. I have just enough TFA 14awg to make a 2.5 : 1 ratio helix. Would this be detrimental in any way?  Unfortunately I don't have the time to order more.

A year ago when I ordered from TFA the package took 5 weeks to arrive. It gets to Dublin in a few days then goes on a tour of the country. Things happen slowly in rural Ireland. Our street has no name but our cottage does, An Acra Beag, which is Gaelic for 'a small acre'  Stuff gets delayed.

@abolive, double signal wires for sure, but I found doubling the neutral on the single ended RCA cable only made a marginal improvement.

For me, the amount of improvement did not justify the additional effort, complexity and expence.

If you are intending to use a two wire signal conductor would make sure each signal wire is twisted in opposite directions and insert each conductor inside a cotton sleeve.

Is the budget allows use solid  occ silver

Regards, Steve

@williewonka thank you for your help.

Do you think doubling for xlr would be as interesting as it is with RCA?

@lemonhaze - the 16 gauge signal would be fine, but I would double up on the neutral. The Helix works best if the neutral is a heavier gauge than the signal conductor.

or buy some 14 gauge from TFA

regards

@williewonka, Hi Steve, a friend has asked me to make speaker cables for his system. The speakers are my design at 96dB sensitivity and driven by a Manley Stingray tube amp providing 40W ultralinear and 25W triode-connected which is how it is always used.

I have some Acoustic Revive cable which is twin 19awg. The red insulation they use is very easily removed by simply freeing one end and pulling, so no nasty nicks from a trim blade. Used as the live = 16awg with 16awg TFA wire for neutral. Would this, in your experience, be enough to adequately drive the speakers? If not I could add a 3rd wire the same as the other 2 bringing the copper cross section of the live wire to 1.96mm sq. closer to 14awg. This is more trouble and expense but will do if that’s what is needed.

While shopping for ptfe tube I came across some ePTFE which is aerated. I emailed them for the Dk which they claimed between 1.3 - 1.5. It may be useful.

@pindac - I took a look at the QED low eddy plug and it is very similar, in priciple, to the KLEI RCA...

• The neutral contact design is very small
• the signal contact design is tubular

So I believe a low mass style of RCA, like the KLEI RCA, would also benefit from a reduction in eddy anomolies.

The one benefit I found with the KLEI RCA is that an interconnect using them can be used as a digital link without having to worry about impedance matching.

• I do not know whether this is due to the impedance of the KLEI RCA or
• whether all low mass/eddy RCA’s can be used in this manner.
• But with more conventional RCA, it is often mentioned that there are :reflections within the cables if the impedance is not matched

Also, I have used DIY Helix cables using the KLE RCA, in lengths from 18" to 6ft, as a digital link and they outperformed my Van Del Hul impedance matched cables specifically designed as a digital cable.

• there was no difference in sound quality between the different length of DIY Helix cables
  • so the thoughts often shared on the web that Digital cables should be of a specific length does not seem to apply when using the KLEI RCA with the Helix DIY Geometry
• Unfortunately, I have no experience with Low Eddy RCA’s, so I cannot provide input as to whether they would perform as well as KLEI RCA’s when used for this purpose.

Any Thoughts? Steve

@abolive - I have use the 'V' shape, but I generally tend to solder onto the flat spot.

• for solid wire I place a small 90 degree turn at the end of the wire and insert that into the 'V'
  • I didn;t find it made any difference, from a sound persoective, but I suspect it is a weaker joint, as there is not as much solder in the joint
  • you can clip off any excess wire after soldering
• For stranded wire you can create a small :"V: shape" in the end of the wire and insert one :'V'  at 90 degrees into the other
  • it makes a better joint for stranded wire

Hope that helps - Steve

Hello all

I need both RCA and XLR interconnects and have got 2 questions 😊

XLR : has someone tried the double version, do you think it would have the same impact as the RCA?

RCA: to solder KLEI plugs, how do you use the V shape? Do you solder on the flat spot or insert the tip of the wire into the V? If the former, I don’t understand why they went with this V shape, which must be more expensive to produce than a simple rectangular tag

Thank you!

@williewonka As stated there is much info to be found on the Web where Low Eddy is the description about RCA Phono Connector Types.

The Brand I have experienced and the same Brand that has restructured my way forward in relation to RCA connectors, is WBT Low Eddy, used on both Cable and Chassis.

There are a few models from WBT, I will make an inquiry to get the Ref No'.

If you would like to try a PC Triple C Wire Cable, send me a PM, I have a Stock of this for my Cables yet to be produced. 

@lewinskih01 - looks!

Perhaps similar plugs from companies like Furutech use real carbon fiber, bur the plugs I have used simply use a small carbon fiber looking band.

The benefit of these plugs is the housing has a more secure cable clamping system, and provides more room to work while making connections.

Regards, Steve 

@williewonka 

You mentioned carbon fiber mains connectors above. Are those carbon fiber bodies connected to the ground wire in those or is the carbon fiber absorbing RFI/EMI from just being there? If the latter, I guess I could try with carbon fiber "blanket" taped around the plastic connector and take a listen.

Or is this just for looks?

Thank you!

@pindac, what brands confirm to low eddy design RCA plugs?

Many Thanks

@lemonhaze - at no point have I experienced brightness or any other sound changes in my system with the Helix geometry/wires - I did experience more details and improved clarity and improved venue acoustics (i.e. hall reverberations) using silver plated connectors.

Perhaps the brightness that is frequently reported is due more to the actual cable geometry and insulations used rather than the actual connectors or wire/metals and plating.

Gold plating may impact the dyamics a little, but whether it would be noticeble depends on many other aspects of system confguration.

• quality of components
• other cables in use
• room dynamics
• speaker palcements
• etc...

I would stick with the silver plated copper connectors then you know going forward you are getting the best possible performance

Also don't be concerned with reported tarnishing, simply reseating a connector will reestablish perfect contact if any tarnishing does occur, but my SonarQuest plugs are now 4 years old and show no signs of tarnish as yet.

Hope that helps - Steve

@grannyring, I was trying to search through some of your posts where I think you mentioned preferring VH Audio's silver wire with AirLok insulation as being a little 'more relaxed' than bare wire in tubes where I happened upon an old post of yours asking about supertweeters and I provide a link below that I consider essential reading.  If you could enlighten me regarding the VH Audio wire please.

This is off topic and titled the world beyond 20KHz. I met Max Townshend at an audio show in Veldhoven, Holland in 2019 where I had a long conversation and demo of his isolation pods, platforms and podiums and heard the supertweeters which brings much to everything including bass. This has created some fierce arguments that I now avoid. The tweets go out to about 90KHz and the common dismissal is "look if you can't hear you can't hear it" but it is heard as the harmonics necessary to complete the waveform.

paper pdf

If this does not open then google the bold part. From David E blackmere

@williewonka,

That's great, I have the Neotech neutral here and waiting on the silver.  I'll report my findings when complete. Would using a gold plated Sonarquest schuko plug instead of the silver plated dull dynamics and transients?

Only considering gold because I'm concerned that silver will be taking me the wrong side of neutral but from one of your posts on interconnects you mentioned that you found the silver to be 'rich' sounding. I value your opinion.

@lemonhaze There is a lot of info to be found on the Web about RCA's with a design that is not just Low Mass but Low Eddy as well.

The descriptions mainly relate to RCA's as I am believing XLR's are a inherently Low Eddy design, I might be incorrect on the XLR description.

For the record, my experience of this change of Connector, has been exclusive to a Tonearm > Phonostage > Power Amp, with SAEC SL 5000 Cable.

I was demo'd the WBT Low Eddy connectors in place against the standard supplied connectors on the Cable.

The System owner also the designer/builder of the Tonearm, had prior to my demo's given, used their long-time owned Copper KLE Harmony and come to the place where the Low Eddy type from WBT was to Supersede them in use.                This became very apparent when the Chassis RCA was also to become a Low Eddy connection.

I can say the system used is one I am very familiar with and is very revealing, due to it detail resolving capabilities. 

This system has on occasion introduced me to the perception of Envelope, not many systems are capable of creating this perception.

The use of Low Eddy connectors as suggested, reinforced in a discernible manner, that the perception of Envelope being manifested was seemingly tangible.

Unfortunately for the type that really does like to think their system dedicated to replaying recorded has substantial capabilities at resolving information embedded by the recording engineer, such a indelible impression made by the perception of Envelope become another plateau to be ascended to.   

For myself today, when considering my next steps, Low Eddy, is the top of the list when it comes to creating an interface between Umbilical Cable and Device.       

@lemonhaze, 2 x 18 gauge occ silver is great for source components. I would use 1x14 gauge solid OCC copper for the neutral.

The silver plated copper from TFA is not quite as good but very good if you are on a budget

The sonarqusest are my first choice for connectors because they tend to use heavier gauge copper and thinker plating.

Hope that helps

@pindac, could you provide more info or a link to your suggestion of:

Low Eddy design RCA's

Thanks

@williewonka, Hi Steve I have a pair of Sonarquest IEC connectors silver plated in a clear plastic/poycarbonate housing and thinking I might try their silver schuko plug unless you recommend a different plating. As I have mentioned my system is a little on the lean side of neutral so perhaps I should avoid rhodium.

The first PC build will be for source components using 2x18awg solid silver with either 1x14awg Neotech in ptfe solid occ copper or 1x14awg stranded from TFA.

Your thoughts please.

In relation to RCA connectors, I have been very familiar with the Low Mass models from the Brands commonly selected.

My being an advocate took on a profound shift in a alternate way of thinking when having experienced Low Eddy design RCA's as both Cable Termination and Chassis Mounted with PC Triple C Wire.

I have no doubts in my suggesting, strongly suggesting, these connector types used as experienced by myself, will enable any Cable in use, to offer its most optimised performance.  

I am not sure what’s going on but TFA and PCX have been out of some of our favorite sizes of MIL Spec Silver Coated and UPOCC wires. The offer and availabilty have been less and less for many months now. Is there a supp’y chain issue for these type of wires?