Does raising speaker cables off the floor really make a big difference?

bdp24, you misunderstood me, that was heavily tongue in cheek. I do believe I am on your side of the argument.
Williewonka, there are three camps here. Those that are right, those that are wrong and then there is geoFFkait who has no idea what side he is on. 

Writing something down does not make it true. Sound-stage is predominantly from large scale effects in the recording, the speakers (namely dispersion, smoothness of frequency response, and lack of significant phase irregularities), and how that interacts with the room.  Don't need to trust me on that, we know that sound-stages comes from directional / distance cues, and they are dominated by the currently loudest signals.


Very subtle things, 100db down, heck even 60-70db down from the signal have little impact on any perception of sound-stage. Anything that "collapses" the sound-stage is a gross significant change, and that is never going to come from cable elevators.  Far more likely is what prof alluded to.

Slew rate is defined by volume and bandwidth, as is complexity. No miracles there.

teo_audio1,292 posts12-18-2019 11:37am

You have to ask yourself, do you really think the sound stage, which is almost all a factor of recording and speaker/room interaction, would magically collapse due to some exceedingly low level interaction between a cable and the floor?

All the subtle information we look for with our ears, in a recording, is low in level..so yes..I would expect that the subtle and easy to disturb high slew rate impossibly intertwined micro signals involved in our limits of human resolution ..might benefit from some careful handling.

I don’t take sides, I run independent. You don’t have to be the fastest wildebeest on the Kalahari, just faster than the slowest one.

@mijosten, okay man, my mistake! By the way, my post was double-layered; I’m goofing on audiophilia, not cable risers themselves. I avoid the question altogether by having all my cords short enough that none CAN lay on the floor. They are suspended in air, the best dielectric.

Not a big deal, but not all audiophiles have endless funds, and they read forums like these to find out where to spend them. Most never post. Reading of forums far exceeds participation.

Wouldn't you rather people who are interested in audio have the best experience they can with the money they have?   Why do all these claims breaks down so quickly when eyes are removed from the equation?

michaelgreenaudio990 posts12-18-2019 12:34pm

I don't see what the big deal is on these types of topics. Some can hear it, some can't and some think this is a very important, and variable, part of the audio chain.

enough for everyone

Weird that someone would bring up the subject of money on this particular thread since it’s not really a money issue. It’s whether you buy into the concept or not. All it takes is a little imagination. As has been pointed out many times, even on this thread, there are free solutions available to anyone. Even someone who lives in a treehouse. It’s threads like this that illuminate the large schism that exists between the average Joe Blow and advanced audiophiles. No offense to anyone in particular.

audiozenology

Why do all these claims breaks down so quickly when eyes are removed from the equation?

I haven't seen any evidence that "all these claims breaks down so quickly when eyes are removed from the equation."

Your claim seems essentially impossible to prove.

There it is! Blind testing raises its ugly head, again. Not much of a surprise, you know, with all these Ethans running around rampant. 😬

It's a relatively cheap tweak to try out for yourself. Just get a Jenga set at a garage sale or cut a 1x2 furring strip into 2" lengths.

you dont know high end sound without cable risers.

mwhahaha

The best cable riser demonstration was at a show several years ago, perhaps RMAF. As I entered the room the demonstrator was using a foam-ish cable riser, I believe of Shunyata make, and rubbing it against the top of a CD. It was being used as an anti-static device. It worked to some degree, better than as a cable riser. 

Want to test this essentially for free?
Cardboard egg cartons. Cardboard is a great insulator for this application.
Cut each carton (discard the lid) into 4 equal sections. That gives you 3 egg holders per section.
Note the shape of your pieces, they even have ready made seating notches for your cables!

You could hose down the carpet with an industrial strength anti-static spray. If static is all you’re worried about. 

These are the type of subjects that self-reputed "Golden Ears" love.To them, it only re-enforces that they have Golden Ears, which is a psychologically-comfortable status.


I’m not talking simply about any audiophile who tries something out in his system, "hears" something he likes and goes with it. Cool stuff!Rather, I’m talking about a certain attitude, or defense-mechanism, found among some portion in the audiophile community.



It’s like psychics or spiritualists: "Oh, you can’t hear the voices of the spirits like I can? Poor thing, it must be hard to be so deficient in spiritual sensitivity!"


So the Golden Ear does some tweak "test" in the usual subjective manner, believes he hears a difference and...well...that’s that! Truth Has Been Found!



If YOU listen to the same thing and don’t hear a difference then, no it can’t be contrary evidence, it can’t be the Golden Ear could possibly be fooling himself; no, the Golden Ear’s subjective impressions method is inviolable so it MUST be some deficiency in you who "can not hear what I hear."


That’s why this always plays out with snipes against the hearing acuity of anyone skeptical of a Golden Ear claim. The Golden Eared Subjectivist assumes his own method as veridical. And since the Golden Ear usually won’t truly put his Golden Ears to controlled testing - e.g. with controls for "not peeking" to really see if he can actually distinguish what he claims. - then the Golden Ear is never faced with a true challenge to his claims.



So he can go on to his heart’s content claiming to hear whatever he/she wants, his Golden Ear status unchallenged (at least to himself/herself), with the added satisfying benefit that anyone arguing about negative results is simply hapless and hasn’t reached the GE’s "Golden Ear" status of acuity for the claimed phenomenon.


You’ll recognize these Golden Ears by the attitude that challenging their perception will rarely result in their admitting to the possibility they have fooled themselves, but rather skeptical inquiry will tend to be met with some version of: "you don’t have the ears/gear to detect it" trope.
(And, btw, I happily admit that there ARE audiophiles who believe in various tweaks, but who go to some effort to produce some rational/evidential arguments in their favor).

It’s much easier to isolate a subwoofer than speakers generally, anyway, due to center of gravity issues and subs are most likely more of a problem, you know, with the much lower frequencies so that’s where I’d put my money first - on isolating the subwoofer.

geoff,

I may have missed the post to which you are replying, but are you talking about isolating speakers/subwoofers from the surface on which they sit?

Can you clarify why you see it as easier to do so with a subwoofer?  Do you mean perhaps that a taller main tower speaker may become more "tippy" when you try isolation underneath?  


Not challenging your claim, just wondering about the details.

The reason for “isolating speakers” is not really to prevent vibrations from the floor being transmitted to the speakers, although that would occur, it’s to prevent the vibrations from speaker cabinets being transmitted to the front end electronics via the floor (mechanical feedback). Isolation systems are two-way 🔚🔜 systems, as illustrated in that Townshend YouTube video - they attenuate vibrations in both directions! 

I suggest isolating subwoofers for two reasons - (1) they are easier to isolate and (2) their frequencies are lower than speakers and do more damage potentially. In a perfect world everything would be isolated - cables, power supplies, DAC, solid state amplifier. The reason speakers with high center of gravity are a problem is that springs under load lack sufficient later support unless the springs are placed far apart from each other in a wide pattern. That wide pattern of springs is much more stable. Small springs are more stable than taller springs.

Some of the tweaks do make a difference although me myself have not heard one that made a big impact. I prefer to upgrade a component first before tweaking my system. Like installing a simple AC filter choke that so far has worked in every component I have installed one in, but that is just me.

Happy Listening.

Ok, I found the big difference , when I raise the cable . and get two shots
Stolichnay , the best Russian vodka , sound became 3 dimension 

I noticed a small difference. Dont spend money if u can at first. Use paper cups or whatever to test it first.

While I will admit I am somewhat of a skeptic on risers.   I can see a slight possibility if you speaker wires are on a carpet that were all charged up with static on a dry day.........But what about hardwood floors (like I have).  Can anyone see a reason to use them with a floor that should not carry a substantial charge? 


I would assume using wooden risers on a wooden floor would be no good.   Would I have to use glass or Teflon?

It's interesting to see prof don't hear difference in cable elevators.  First you have to be able to hear difference in cables first :-)  It's like saying I finished the race first but I crashed out on lap 8 out of 80.  

What about wi-fi?  Suspend them in the air will probably reduce jitter.  Of course there will be people saying jitter in digital don't matter.

I can definitely hear changes in cables but I have never heard a difference from raising cables off the carpet, yet I’ve always done it. I like my cables to not touch each other or the ground.  This makes my ocd happy, which in turn probably makes my rig sound better to me!

Running bi-wire cables along the top of the baseboard sure looks better. Whether it improves the sound I can't be sure. Definitely doesn't hurt, so just do it for cosmetic reasons and believe it sounds better if you're so inclined. Nobody can prove that angels and fairies aren't on your side, and meanwhile you can prove your floor is neater, so there.

Bi-wire makes a difference, that is if you system has the resolution for it.  Bi-amp will even be better.  Although not all "bi" is good.  

My hardwood floors ARE the cable risers as they keep my speaker cables from being in the basement, and since I have certified (by a panel of experts) superb hearing, I absolutely hear a difference between my current speaker cables and the ones in the basement as the ones in the basement aren't hooked up to anything...they're in a box...just sitting there. I do however want to meet the person using toilet paper rolls as speaker risers, and wonder how he got his mom to allow that...I guess she thought he looked lonely and somewhat delusional.

Most audiophiles, even reviewers are "beginners".

Most audiophiles, even reviewers are "beginners".

You forgot to mention that the best ones may not be "beginners", but they definitely are liars lols.

It's interesting to see prof don't hear difference in cable elevators. First you have to be able to hear difference in cables first :-) It's like saying I finished the race first but I crashed out on lap 8 out of 80. 

Perfectly put.  Cheers.   ;-)

Perfectly put. Cheers.   ;-)

prof,

I think you missed my point.  What I was saying is you intentionally trying to be illogical out of being self-indulgence.  I think you enjoy doing it lols :-)

I got your point andy.   I think you missed the point of my reply.   ;-)

I like tweaks and have a bunch of them. This one has never revealed itself as sounding better.  I run my cables under my floor in my conditioned crawl space and my system sounds the same as when I had those funny looking ceramic risers all over the floor holding my cables.  No change. 

Perhaps it's time to invest in a new smoker and bbq sauce... : )

This one has never revealed itself as sounding better.

I haven’t tried lifting my cables for well on 25 years. When I did, I heard a small difference and thought nothing of it. After reading this thread with all the usual suspects and sides, I tried doing it again, using some Yoplait Oui glass jars.

All it took was 7 of them to lift my speaker cables off the carpet. All I needed to hear, to hear a difference, was about 10-20 seconds into a well known CD to hear the difference, and ended up listening to the whole thing. Cleaner, clearer, period. Removing the Oui jars brought back the veil I had prior to using the jars. More of a smearing, actually.

No cost. Simple to replicate. Trust your ears and leave the arguments to the know it alls.

All the best,
Nonoise

I got your point andy. I think you missed the point of my reply. ;-)

I supposed you have your point, but I think at least I was right about the self-indulgence part although that's not the only thing.  But anyway, you have the right to exercise your "right".  

andy,

We all come here to read other people's points of view and express our own as it may be.  Why would your many posts, or anyone else's,  be any less "self-indulgent?"   Seems a distinction without distinction.

Though you also seem to be saying I'm purposefully being illogical (and for that strange reason being "indulgent.")   If that's what you are saying, can you show me an example of where I've been illogical in this thread?

To spell out a point that seemed to be missed:  My initial reply to your fun comment/car analogy was to indicate you begged the question,  hence it was a nice, even if jokey, illustration of the type of replies I was describing earlier.  And your reply wasn't the only one in this thread that illustrated my point perfectly ;-)

Trust your ears and leave the arguments to the know it alls.

So when someone says "Given the well known problem of sighted bias, how do you know you really heard what you think you heard?"

Your response is: "Because I JUST KNOW WHAT I HEARD. So I can ignore you."

And, somehow, it’s the people asking questions that are the "Know-It-Alls?"

Hookay. ;-)

Andy and Nonoise +1. I hear a nice difference also. I put wood under my cables and my dog likes to get them back out and chew on them. It least it hasn’t liked to chew on the cables yet.

And, somehow, it’s the people asking questions that are the "Know-It-Alls?"

It's one thing to ask a question, another to belabor a point beyond what's accustomed or necessary. 😄

All the best,
Nonoise

I grew up in the 70's on Stereo Review and Julian Hirsch and so of course knew beyond any doubt that if the wire is thick enough and the frequency response is flat enough and the power is watts enough then that's all that matters. I mean this was beyond doubt. 

So when in the 90's with a good job and a remodeled listening room it was time to go shopping this was the frame of mind I was in. I would go and listen and find some good speakers, because speakers were different, because frequency response, see? And so speakers you audition. Everything else you can just buy by spec.

Totally convinced of this. Not a one of you professing disbelief can hold a candle to me back then. Not a one. Did any of you take your CD player to a store and ask to compare it side by side? I did. And interconnect. And amp. Made a real pest of myself. 

Oh and yes, ashamed to admit it but for a while there I made a real ass of myself spouting off in utter ignorance sounding every bit as much a loser wannabe noob as anyone around here today.

This all went on until one day by chance listening to one track on CD of all things it hit me. There was a quality to the sound of this particular recording that was different from my system and yet similar to some of the other really good systems I had heard. Nowadays I would say it was more liquid with less grain and glare. But back that vocabulary didn't exist for me back then. It developed only gradually over time and with a lot of effort listening to and comparing a lot of different things.

So I can sympathize with the people who have yet to develop the skill to listen. Its sad, knowing the better you listen the more you're able to build a truly great system, and appreciate the better music and recordings. If you can't hear, you can't do, and you just go on missing out.

Its not all bad of course. Not knowing what you're missing. How can you feel sad losing what you never had in the first place? Not to mention its easy to criticize when you haven't even the foggiest idea what it is you're criticizing. 

You can fell as good about it as you want. Just as long as you don't mind that nagging feeling that others really do know. But I'm sure that never happens.

prof,

I guess I was right.  You couldn't admit to your self-indulgence.  Not that it's a problem :-)

While I’ve never really tested the (non-)effect of cable risers I wouldn’t rule out they’re having an effect, whilst quickly saying that if expensive cable risers of some more or less exotic material are promoted as having the biggest, most positive effect I’ll laugh it off as a load of b*llocks, safe for acknowledging mere coincidence. Really, why in the hell is it close to always the most expensive materials (and configurations) that are the most highly touted in the hifi business - with the claim that they’re sonically superior, that is? Go to a jeweller and find out..

(De-)coupling of components has an affect for sure, but it’s assessing what approach has the most desired impact. I have a DAC/preamp on loan these days as a possible item to replace my existing DAC/preamp, and tried it out initially without my Ringmat Domes (made of compressed cork) underneath it. I was later shocked to find out that the biggest difference in sound between the two DAC’s was due to using or not using the Ringmat Domes. Not highly relevant to this thread, perhaps, but still a humbling experience that could be related.

Not highly relevant to this thread, perhaps, but still a humbling experience that could be related.

As a matter of curiosity, would you be humbling if you didn't see any difference?

I suppose it depends on the room, flooring material, cable length, cable covering,  cable weight and perhaps many more variables.  I suppose room humidity also plays a role.  Easy for us to have differing experiences with this lifting tweak. 

@andy2 --

As a matter of curiosity, would you be humbling if you didn’t see any difference?

Not sure I follow what you’re after, but I was merely using an example in a presumably related field to show my willingness to accept an effect of cable risers - easy they may be to ridicule. We’re chasing sonic bliss sometimes throwing thousands of dollars after hardware, only to find out that cheap accessories can have a bigger impact. By that I’m not saying hardware upgrades can’t be justified, only that other areas concerning their optimization can have a significant say as well.

If, hypothesized, I didn’t experience any pronounced difference in sound using the Ringmat domes I probably wouldn’t have posted..

So if one decides to go with cable risers, how long is the break-in period?

how long is the break-in period?

Theoretically, the break-in process is open-ended that is the cables continue to break-in as if "infinitely", that is again theoretically.  Practically, though it depends on one's system and one's hearing.