Does Every Track Sound Great on Your System?

Amen!

By way of example with a focus on bass, for some songs I like the amount of bass, then another song I feel like it needs more bass to hit harder, and then another song I feel like there is too much bass and it is boomy. Does that ever happen to you? I feel like I am getting the treble sorted out, but going back and forth on the bass. Can anyone listen to the first 20 second of the song Temptation by Diana Krall from the

If you are sitting on top of a modal peak or two, any track that has significant content at that frequency could boom you all the way to China town (Boom Shacka laka). Plot your room modes, position yourself out of such modes or use a pair of subs at the ’correct locations’ to ’cancel’ those modes out.

Some crappy recordings from the 80s and so on will be bass flaccid. If that’s the case, turn the tone controls knob clockwise. If the listener is a "pure" individual and refrains from usage of gear with EQ, tone controls, etc, well, such is his predicament (One lays in the bed he makes). The number of recordings he may really enjoy could drop from 5000 to 5.

Every recording you have ever heard in life has already gotten EQ’d all the way to high heaven before it got put on a CD or vinyl for you (it ain’t pure). There is nothing wrong with EQ’ing it to your taste if the mastering guy (who got way too high the night before) screwed it up while he EQ’d away.

12many OP

221 posts

05-03-2024 at 02:42am 

Thanks all.  Good info.  My issue is not so much about a poor quality recording, just that some good recordings are coming across with a bit too much bass energy, while other sound good, even when they have bass content.  It may be the room or speaker positions or me - maybe I am not accepting enough of the artists/mixers choice to have more bass in some parts of the song.  I don't have subs in my system, but did have this issue before when using subs.

@12many did you read that article? It is exactly about your query, as I’d mentioned. @yoyoyaya also gave you a sound (pun!) explanation.

All the EQ stuff / kit discussion would be useful, maybe, if you opt to use more power and software.

Laptop in the listening chair as a remote got a chuckle from me 😉

Very good sound through my system...😊

Below is my system video. Do you think the bass is too much? Alex/WTA

OP     Can anyone listen to the first 20 second of the song Temptation by Diana Krall from the Girl In The Other Room album and let me know if there is a bass component that is a bit much?

Below is my system video. Do you think the bass is too much? Alex/WTA

@12many , I prefer EQ to solve the inter recording bass variance problem. To each their own. 
@baylinor , I’m not putting down Schiit equalizers. I just saying there’s a world of better sounding and more powerful studio equalizers that can creatively but easily be implemented in a hi fi playback environment to get incredulous results. Audiophiles often won’t go there as Loki Max is the only “audiophile “ EQ out there. Just trying to broaden audiophile’s horizons to a better way is all. 

Shortly sayin’

Maan -- I wish, but it’s not my overall goal.

I have a large number of inferior recordings and line-up of Pink Floyd bootlegs from their live concerts. Live in Pompeii sounds awful on all tracks, but it’s not what I’m really after in this case. I ADORE their early sound no matter how poorly it was recorded back then.

Thanks all.  Good info.  My issue is not so much about a poor quality recording, just that some good recordings are coming across with a bit too much bass energy, while other sound good, even when they have bass content.  It may be the room or speaker positions or me - maybe I am not accepting enough of the artists/mixers choice to have more bass in some parts of the song.  I don't have subs in my system, but did have this issue before when using subs.  

Ditto, I also said all I have to say because unlike some, I don't like to bad mouth other folks' equipment over mine. Over and out.

@baylinor , I understand and have said all I have to say. Oh other than if you used a better sounding more powerful EQ with more headroom then you’d euphorically use it a lot more than 5 % of the time. These things can be magic boxes. Not Loki though. I had it all of one day and returned it. It took about 10 minutes to determine that either with small or larger adjustments that sonically it couldn’t TOUCH what my CO was doing. 

@wsrrsw , so this doesn’t become a repeat of the other thread, I really recommend reading IT before concluding that a Schiit equalizer is best for you. Or personally reach out to @jtcf ​​@bigwave1 @mirolab @ellajeanelle ​​​@dgarretson. The last one has the Massive Passive. @mirolab records in his own home studio. They will give you a wealth of information. It’s all on the other thread though. 

@tlcocks 

I really appreciate all the info you have provided and am happy you are so pleased with this in your system. Looking at their website, it is undeniable that the advantages of this unit are multiple over others. But, as quoted in their website, this is first and foremost intended for studios. In a dedicated listening room such as mine, it would simply be overkill as only my speakers cost more than it. And I use my EQ probably much less than 5% of the time. That's why the Loki Max in my case makes much more sense. But good for you!

I use no eq or room correction.  Great tracks sound great, good tracks sound good, and lousy tracks sound lousy.  But you know why they sound lousy.

My apologies so long. It answers your questions about me. I really do need to update equipment in proper manner here. Haven’t done it because I’m over Head Fi more. 
oh, as far as getting up and adjusting and sitting down. I do it easily once in a while if I change an album and the tonality is different. It’s really not hard. Just adjust bass and treble dials usually 

So the speakers are Martin Logans. That’s not in there. I use Transparent speaker cable. The short coaxial digital cable connecting my source streamer Auralic Aries is a Bryston cable. As mentioned in the post, I have 1000 dollars worth of Cardas Clear Sky XLR balanced cable connecting the EQ to the tape loop of the amp. 
if you’ll humor me and wade through all of the post, you’ll find a quite respectable and quite hi fi headphone chain. Used same Cardas cabling to insert the EQ between the source and the desktop amp. The HEKse, by the way, are simply AMAZING headphones. The headphone chain honestly sounds freaking unbelievable. Particularly with CO EQ in there. 

I felt at this point since I’m using the piece with synergistic success in two separate chains that I’d post some history on it. I initially bought it from SoundPure pro audio to insert in the tape loop of my Bryston B135 SST2 integrated amp with onboard dac. That was about 2013. About 3 years after Mike Deming at Charter Oak started producing it. Mike was well know for using highest quality parts and hand crafted attention in making his mics compressors and equalizers and his equipment has always sounded highly musical with excellent resolution and staging. I felt immediately I had struck gold having that EQ of his in my tape loop on my hi fi amp. The sound has always been magical. Even on the best recordings I preferred looping it in with the click of a button. Talk about a true bypass. Clicking out the tape loop you have the true straight source line in. The sound though with loop in has always been preferable. Even as I advanced recently my headphone chain rapidly and my listening skills advancing as well. 
So, after years of enjoying this magic sauce in my big rig, I made a friend here on head fi when I purchased the Fostex TH900 and a Mojo2 and started chatting about them on Fostex forum. A really good guy many of you know named Geoff. We have remained close as “odd fellows” because I like to EQ a lot, mainly tone shaping, but Geoff doesn’t do much. Yet we share stories. We share listening observations. I read his excellent reviews, we totally respect each other’s differences in our respective approaches to developing our hi fi chains. It was because of my friendship with Geoff that I built out a much better desktop headphone chain than my Th900 and Mojo2. I now have Matrix Audio X Sabre 3 serving analog high end balanced source material to my Headamp GSX Mini balanced amp and out to my Hifiman HE1000SE, otherwise known affectionately as HEKse. While the sound quality was super, I still felt compelled to try the professional balanced analog mastering EQ by Charter Oak in my chain. Fell in love with it there too. Bought another one used in top notch condition from a studio engineer on Reverb and now I own 2. 
Simply put, this piece has uniquely amazing musicality for pro gear and amazing synergy therefore with the robust full throated beautiful mids found in high fi gear. It’s worth noting that I’ve had the pleasure of comparing it in my big rig to multiple analog EQ pieces renowned in mastering circles as well as the Schiit Loki Max. It beat the Avalon AD2055 as well as the Millennia NSEQ4 by a noticeable margin in the more musical and less analytical department. Margins close here though, as all pieces well known in studios across the globe. It TROUNCED the Loki Max. Schiit Loki Max and Lokius are the only “hi fi analog” EQ devices made specifically for audiophiles and home playback systems that I’m aware of. If any of you are acquainted with these EQ’s, I will simply tell you that you have no idea how good tone shaping analog EQ can sound in a high Fi configuration until you’ve heard the Charter Oak. The Schiit products, I’m sorry to say, just aren’t in the same ballpark. The Charter Oak handily beats my my Auralic Aries DSP parametric. Same with Roon’s. Just no contest. 
There is one unfortunate caveat though. Mike Deming no longer makes them and hasn’t for at least a few years. A California company has taken over the name and production of the last several years’ units. Mike Deming stays in occasional touch with me and has verified that these units don’t sound as good as his production era ones. So if you look for one online used, check to see if the beautiful gloss faceplate finish has disappeared as well as the numbers on the left and right master gain dials. If so, don’t purchase! Check serial number and bounce it off me. I’ve attached two pics. It’s a beautiful piece. This thread is simply my paying homage to a uniquely synergistic and transformative piece that never quits thrilling me for a decade now. I felt I owed it to Mike and Charter Oak to write about it here, as it’s meant so much to me in my hi fi endeavors. Oh, and Cardas Clear Sky XLR cables highly recommended in connecting your CO to your hi fi amp. 
Thanks for letting me share!

sorry so long. Gear in here. 

Actually (I think I stated this earlier) you can completely control the Wes Audio piece from your listening chair with the provided software app and a laptop. There’s your remote. 

@wsrrsw 

You made my point real well. No remote on a EQ unit is worthless in my listening room setup. Since the ones who are  pushing the Charter Oak don't post their systems, I imagine they must be sitting at a desk by their EQ unit doing their listening. Otherwise it would be a lot of getting up and down to get it just right. No thanks. No remote, no EQ in my case. Thanks for the Loki Max. No wonder it has been out of stock. Great invention, remote EQ!

I listened to Temptation on my main system and headphone system. Sounds great in both cases. No criticisms or oddities come to mind. Only it sounds fantastic. 

Getting up from listing chair and going to rack and making adjustments you can’t hear unless you are back in listing position must be very Keystone cop like.

Still this looks very cool.

Found this The Audio Hunt’s Top 5 EQ Units. Hymn,

@katzenjammer27 , both of my CO’s are about 10 years old. They sound phenomenal. They were worth 2700 new in 2013. They are rare to pop up used online. But they do. That’s how I got my 2nd. That’s how @bigwave1 got his. You’ll pay approximately 1800 give or take for a used one. Other options are simply other pro pieces new or used. Gearspace is a great forum for recording pros with threads. Like here of Head Fi. Great resource. Also, look for deals and lists of pro gear for sale at stores online like SoundPure, B H Photo, Front End Audio etc. 

one of my CO  has a new hiss in left channel. It’s subtle. Not heard while playing music. And SQ as stunning as ever. But may be early age related decline of capacitors or such and may worsen and eventually affect SQ. So I am going to demo in my home in about 2 weeks the Hendyamps Michelangelo. Way easier to use than the Wes Audio piece and more akin to my CO in functionality and cost. Will provide feedback once I’ve done so. Front End Audio sells them. Made to order. Can be either high output MOSFET SS or tube. 

tlcocks,

I agree, but the $6k is a bit steep for my system and my ears are getting older. I'm saving the money to build a dedicated room for now, no parallel walls or ceiling...acoustic treatments. Maybe when I have that project done I will re-visit.

There are so many factors that determine how well a particular song sounds, especially the room dynamics. The song for me that"s always strange in its sound in my room is "At Last" by Etta James.  The standup bass in that song always makes my ceiling sound like people with heavy boots are walking up above. 

The LM and Lokius don’t play in the same ballpark as the aforementioned pro pieces. They are sonically inferior. I won’t elaborate here but I’ve done so EXTENSIVELY on the Equalizer in a Hi Fi System thread. As have others there. If you just limit yourself to Schiit equalizers and never hear any pro gear then you have no idea what you are missing. Please, if you want the highest fidelity in an equalizer, then please do yourself a favor and read the other thread. 

I have the Loki Max, because someone mentioned it on this forum. I agree, it has three presets, plus a bypass. It helps take the edge off some recordings while opening up the imaging. I concur, get one if you don't have one. The age of the equalizer is back.

@OP. There are two possibilities here. The first is that you have room problems. If you have, depending on the key of the song and the bassline, some tracks may sound right and others wrong.

The second is just the fact that depending on the choices made in the recording and mastering, bass sound can differ quite radically across different recordings. Also, a double bass sounds fundamentally different to an electric bass even though they have the same nominal frequency response (like for like in terms of four string basses).

Assuming there aren't equipment or room problems, there is no "right" amount of bass - it varies.

There is a piece, called NGTUBEEQ by Wes Audio that is all analog and with stereo link to automatically match sides when one dial is turned. It uses a digital software to control the unit from your computer. Or you can turn dials yourself. It probably sounds utterly incredible for a cool 6 grand. Insanely over the top for home hi fi. But would integrate fine. XLR balanced. One day…

"All sound good on my system" as i also said does not means that heavily mixed pop music badly recorded sound suddenly "audiophile. Not at all . Crap stay crap...

But when you can hear the trade -off choices of any recording you are astounded to hear for the first time all acoustics parameters pertaining to each album...

The timbre of the playing instrument suddenly communicate spatial information and location of the recorded instruments and more hues.

Before the improvement in your system you could not hear WHY and HOW bad the recording was now you hear  how bad and why it is so bad (mixing bad tricks for example)...It stay as it was before the improvement in the system/room but now you hear how and may even enjoy it better if you like already this music for this same reason...if you dont like this music you8 hate it more knowing why ...😊

When we listen music we hear three phenomenon :

the music,

the sound quality of our system/room but through this ,

I hear also the acoustics trade-off set of choices of the recording engineer from the album itself ...

And we are happy "all sound good" because we dont confuse the three phenomenon  after the improvement in the same bad acoustic soup ...

if what i said was not true i would have never been able to tune my room , unable t6o distinguish what comes from the recording acoustics trade-off  and what come from the system room limitations.😊

IF one listens to a variety of music, from different types of producers and companies:

Recording quality varies.

Mastering quality varies.

There are different purposes for different mixes.

There are so many variables.

How *could* they all sound good on one’s system?

I poured my heart and soul into that other thread I mentioned. I’m pretty passionate about the benefits that can be obtained from such devices. Heck, there’s even a guy on that thread who posted about his Manley Massive Passive in his very hi fi rig. Another has the legendary Mark Levinson Cello Palette preamp and EQ. These wonderful pieces of kit can be every bit as high end as any audiophile component. 

No remote on the Charter Oak makes it an impossibility for my setup. Hence the Loki Max.

As does @bigwave1 , I also own a Charter Oak PEQ-1. Two, in fact. One for my headphone chain and one for my big rig. A lot is written about this in Equalizer in a Hi Fi System thread over there. Pages and pages comparing and contrasting digital vs pro analog EQ (like our CO PEQ). Schiit vs other pro analog pieces. It’s a great thread for anyone who wants to deep dive into this subject. I have been using my Charter Oak PEQ-1 for 10 years. I LOVE it. @bigwave1 and I have shared positive experiences with this device. Not all recordings are created the same. A pro analog EQ can really shine up dull recordings. I use mine for old rock records all the time. 

And if you need to improve well recorded albums, you need to improve your listening room and system first.

IF your system is capable of sounding great on some tracks, bass/mids/highs and not others, it’s the fault of the recording, not your system.

musicians, placement of musicians in a space, specific mics used for individual instruments/voices, proper levels for original recording, all the mess of great/good/bad decisions by the engineers post recording, you are listening to the result of that mixed bag.

When it's great, my friend and I often look at each other and say "these guys knew what they were doing".

I don’t try to adjust anything to improve the track, EXCEPT, I love remote balance

to correct/improve imaging that is there but a bit off for who knows what reason. The more revealing your system becomes, you more readily hear a slight imbalance. A slight tweak of balance can make a surprising amount of improvement, not just the centered singer, but all players across the width of the stage are more distinct, sound and location.

Agreed, in worst case scenarios, I use my Schiit loki max and it does a great job on poorly recorded albums.

Try a Charter Oaks PEQ-1. The worst recordings can be markedly improved, the best, maybe not so much if at all. 

Every song should sound as good as the quality of the recording allows. Meaning a poorly recorded album will sound as good as it can but it will never equal the sound of a high quality recorded one. To try to achieve similar results from poorly and well recorded albums would be like chasing the dragon.

Does Every Track Sound Great on Your System? No because some recordings are poor. And some are fantastic. 

The more I improve my system, the easier it is to distinguish quality recordings/less compression, etc. from bad ones. Some music sounds fantastic and some, as recording/production details are revealed, sound thin, anemic. 

12 many my friend the moment he listen. The first thing He does analyze. Never the music.He is into treble bass stuff. Then our listening sessions get ruin.I decided to make a deal with Him. If He comes to listen to my system . No reviewing and analyzing allowed.After many listening sesssions? He learned and got thru the analyzing stage. We are both happy listening now.

The bass is full but defines in these songs from Diana.

there will be recordings in any audio system that won’t sound like master recordings . For example in the 60s many rock bands just starting out could not afford the best mastering equipment ,or mixing artist. Some may have too much top end, some endemic in Bass. Some mono recordings and older single miked mixes were masterpieces. More then 1/2 recordings out there are far from ideal.

I play music from all different types, which is far more challenging . Even when I owned my Audio store and $100k audio  systems not  everything sounded like it was being played live in the room ,that would be optimum , but almost impossible 

unless you cherry pick the records,and artist.

It's ALL in the recording. 

Great question! The more you go up in electronics, the more revealing your system becomes. Sometimes there are differences in SQ within songs on a side of a vinyl record but more frequently the differences in SQ occur on different sides of an album. 

Less expensive gear doesn't pick up these SQ differences. That's why rock, for example, is very hard to get right with vinyl on high end systems but generally sounds good on less expensive systems.

It takes a lot of work to get a high end rig to sound amazing both in gear symmetry and software. Just throwing expensive gear together and expecting great results is a recipe for SQ frustration and disaster. "Ignorance is bliss" applies to rigs that don't detect subtle differences of SQ information in the grooves and there's nothing wrong with that because it's all about enjoying the music...

IF one listens to a variety of music, from different types of producers and companies:

Recording quality varies.

Mastering quality varies.

There are different purposes for different mixes.

There are so many variables.

How *could* they all sound good on one's system?

My system with 2 REL subs rarely need adjustment, but I can easily turn the bass level up or down on the RELs (easily accessible using the infamous "chicken head" knobs) or use my Schiit Loki Max to EQ an out of balance recording (seriously, everybody should have one if these). Another option is to shut it all down, put my face in my hands, and start sobbing.

Does every Track sound great on my system? The answer to that is no. Some recordings benefit from high-quality production and engineering while others suffer from a lack thereof. That’s a variable that is inherent  and my system won’t make a poorly engineered recording sound “great“ and I don’t think any system could possibly be different. It doesn’t mean that I can’t enjoy the music if the engineering is not masterful, but it won’t sound truly great at least to my ears. for example, I enjoy pretty much all of the music from Al Stewart. His music that was produced by Alan Parsons is, however, qualitatively different because Alan Parsons had a genius for production and engineering.
If that genius is not present, there’s not going to be any high end equipment, room, treatments, acoustics, or whatever that will cover for its absence. That doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy the music but great is a relative term and it won’t be great Compared to music that has been masterfully produced and engineered

Recording quality is a huge variable that probably isn’t discussed enough and that’s probably because there’s not much we can do about it

@ghdprentice Well stated. I also am drawn into the emotion of the performance, not the system.  Just as you articulated, with previous systems I did the opposite and became fatigued quickly.  The attributes of a musical system to me are timbre, tonal balance, PRAT, micro/macro dynamics, and the ability to reproduce harmonic decay.  I prefer an organic presentation with dense images. 

@12many No system will correct poor recording engineering.  I have found overly analytical systems will highlight poor engineering.  You indicate you are evaluating a new amplifier that is augmenting bass on recordings engineered with powerful bass to a degree you find unpleasant.  The increased bass performance of your new amp may be overloading your room rather than a specific fault of amp or a system mismatching issue. My recommendation, if you have not done this already, is first attempt to tweak speaker or room treatment positioning.  That may balance bass response. If it does not work you have a decision to make. When evaluating bass performance, I recommend you focus more on timbre and tone, micro/macro dynamic performance, ability to drive PRAT, and ability to reproduce secondary harmonics and decay, not on power per se.  If balancing works, determine bass performance using my recommendations to determine if your new amp is better.  Make the final decision based on which amp lets the music touch your soul so you stop listening to your system. 

12many

05-02-2024 6:23am

By way of example with a focus on bass, for some songs I like the amount of bass, then another song I feel like it needs more bass to hit harder, and then another song I feel like there is too much bass and it is boomy. Does that ever happen to you? I feel like I am getting the treble sorted out, but going back and forth on the bass.

@12many might be a stab in the dark not knowing what your setup is, but I’ll venture bass can be a most unstable variable among different albums, or even among different tracks on the same album.

One reason being, how variable mastering setups and masterer’s impressions can be. It’s a mess. I adjust my stereo subs manually among albums / masters because of this. For someone surfing across albums while streaming, it would not be a reasonable strategy. I prefer it to running the sub plate amps near max and using DSP to equilibrate the low end among albums. For anyone who doesn’t mind really working out their sub’s amps and/or who has a more sophisticated digital path for bass management, there can be less strenuous options, but intervention will be needed nonetheless. The only real way around (i.e. no DSP nor frequent level adjustments) is if you’re willing to oscillate between hearing weak bass and really weak bass, depending on the album / master. Reading the linked paper should help.

Bass balance can be a real problem when you have a subwoofer. The best solution is to get a Schiit preamp with continuosly variable volume, not incremental or push buttons. The Jotunheim has a nice big volume knob that makes this easier. If you don’t want to spend $400, their $200 preamp will work just as well minus the larger knob. both preamps have RCA to XLR capability. Run a cable from the sub out to your listening spot and run a cable back to the input to your sub amp. Set your sub amp so the 12 oclock setting on your preamp would be like your regular subwoofer setting. Every tune needs its own setting, one setting is never right for everything. With most things, from here you can get nice bass balance with small tweaks. This is my secret weapon. It takes listening and practice, but you won’t be stuck with settings that don’t work most of the time.

Does Every Track Sound Great on Your System? No because some recordings are poor. And some are fantastic. 

OP,  Can you live record the song with your system and upload? Alex/WTA

Pretty much yes! I have yet to hear something sounding bad.