Does Every Track Sound Great on Your System?

Not the best sounding SACD, but not bad and I like it on my system.

Thanks, @toddalin  , come to think of it, I do remember losing a bidding contest on ebay for that SACD remaster.  I am afraid that I am a tad OCD, and at the time I saw that, I thought it would be nice to have a "audiophile" copy of Yellow Brick Road that was closer to the double LP format that it was originally released as.  And I still would rather have it in a two CD set as opposed to all on one 76 minute disc, but the things I get OCD on come and go and now I don't feel as strongly about that particular one.

Out of curiosity, how does that particular SACD remaster sound?

I set my sub to blend using my cd of "Eddie Gomez"....on the Denon label. This is my reference. Cannot keep readjusting to every other recording I have. When I listen to the MUSICIANSHIP, which is 1st on my priority list, everything else falls into place. I listened to LZ IV last night, cranked to the optimum level (every recording has an optimum level), and I was just jammin’ to them boys. Yes, my system conveys all of those qualities I listen for, and then some. Could not be happier. I have tried eq, but prefer less electronics and cabling, as I hear the negative impact it brings to my ears. Obviously, ymmv. My best, MrD.

Original Album Produced by Gus Dudgeon

Deluxe Edition SACD Produced by Greg Penny

Released by Island Records a Universal Music Company

Island Records is a record label owned by Universal Music Group (UMG) and is based in New York. Chris Blackwell, Graeme Goodall, and Leslie Kong founded the label in Jamaica in July 1959, with a focus on Caribbean artists and music.

https://www.discogs.com/release/3339428-Elton-John-Goodbye-Yellow-Brick-Road

. . . oh, and as far as Funeral For A Friend, @toddalin  , I usually listen after I eat, around  7 or 8 pm or so, so while I am preparing dinner I have the tubes warming up, and then as I am eating I have my system playing some background at a low level, so when I went back and plugged in Yellow Brick Road tonight, Funeral was ready to thunder.

So who released the 30th anniversary edition, @toddalin  ?  (Just curious is all.)

And no, both of my remastered Yellow Brick Roads are single discs (76 minutes long, I believe) and do not include any bonus tracks.  No acoustic Norma Jean.  My only other Elton John CD is a DDD that is live in Australia with, I think, the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra.  It does have Norma Jean.  I haven't listened to it in ages.  I have it pulled out in its slot about an inch as I am going to give it a spin next session.  As an aside, I used to like Elton John a lot, and I think that there was a time in the the late 70s when I probably had every Elton John 8 trcak except the self titled (my sister had that LP).  I still wouldn't mind having a good sounding remaster of Don't Shoot Me--Texas Love Song is great.

From Wikipedia:

The original 1973 LP was released on two discs, while the 1992 and 1995 CD remasters put the album on one disc as it was slightly less than 80 minutes. The 30th anniversary edition followed the original format, splitting the album across two discs to allow the inclusion of the bonus tracks, while a DVD on the making of the album was also included. The album has also been released by Mobile Fidelity as a single disc 24 karat gold CD. The album (including all four bonus tracks) was released on SACD (2003), DVD-Audio (2004), and Blu-ray Audio (2014).^[21] These high resolution releases included the original stereo mixes, as well as 5.1 remixes produced and engineered by Greg Penny.

Unfortunately Funeral for a Friend is the first track and it takes a good 20+ minutes for things to really warm up and sound their best so I always have to repeat it at the end if it is the first disk I'm listening to.  I assume your version has the acoustic Goodbye Norma Jean included?

@toddalin  , that is not the one I have--my SACD Yellow Brick Road is the SHM single layer.  (tonight I played what would have amounted to the first of two LPs) and maybe it sounded better than the old MFSL red book/maybe it didn't.; it didn't blow me away.  However, Funeral For A Friend was thundering and penetrating and I loved that much of it.  Who did the remastering of your 30th anniversary Deluxe Edition?

I I have a lot of CDs and several SACDs,, and the SQ I hear from them ranges from poor to "I like it" to mind blowingly excellent.  

They all sound the way they are supposed to sound and that is great. 

Poor recordings sound gritty and raw like they were supposed to I guess.   But they still are enjoyable.   

I agree with you that oor recordings sound gritty and raw (the vibe I was getting the other night was bright, shrill and compressed) but I am not sure that they are supposed to sound that way.  But yes, I agree with this also:

Great recordings sound excellent,  so good that you get a sense of the "room" ambiance . 

I think I'm at the point where my system sounds pretty good.   Great recordings sound excellent,  so good that you get a sense of the "room" ambiance .   

Poor recordings sound gritty and raw like they were supposed to I guess.   But they still are enjoyable.   

My second system sounds fantastic given it's size, it doesn't have the dynamic contrast that a larger system may have but it does a great job of communicating what's on the disc .   It gets me 75% there , I find myself listening to it a lot lately.  

I think if every track sounded perfect,  I'd be worried that is wasn't faithful to the source 

@toddalin  , are you referring to the Japanese single layer SACD?  I have that also, but I've only played it once.  For some reason I haven't been too impressed with the single layer imports, but it could be that I wasn't listening to it on a "good night."  I am not in the mood for Goodbye Yellow Brick Road on a regular basis, but next time I'll try the SACD and see if my feelings have changed about it.  I really enjoy Funeral For A Friend/Love Lies Bleeding.

Did you try the Goodbye Yellow Brick Road in SACD?

A few nights ago I put on the Sony SBM (red book) remaster of Born To Run and it sounded like nails on a chalkboard. Then I put on the MFSL (red book) Goodbye Yellow Brick Road and it was somewhat better, but not super crazy better. Then I put on Sprinsteen’s Ghost Of Tom Joad and it was a whole lot better and then I put on MFSL (SACD) Cowboy Junkies/Whites Off Earth Now and all brightness and compression disappeared and the sound stage blossomed laterally, vertically and to the fore and aft. All tracks are not re-created equally on my system.

For the most part most music sounds good on my system depending what amp and speaker combo I’m using. My B&W sub is fully adjustable from an app. I also have a schitt Loki max eq that has a remote. I can adjust the whole system on the fly which I rarely do. 

Do we

1: Optimize to bring the very best out of the very best recordings, or

2: Optimize to bring the best out of the broadest range of recordings.

i quite literally do both all the time. Easily. 

Do we

1: Optimize to bring the very best out of the very best recordings, or

2: Optimize to bring the best out of the broadest range of recordings.

Some will argue that these are not mutually exclusive, my experience over the last 40 years or so is that they are. Choose #1 when you’re system building and you’ll have something that impresses the heck out of your friends when they come over for a listening session, but you might start to run out of tracks to play after a couple hours or they’ll get sick of the insipid tripe that you’re serving up and just leave anyway.

Choose option #2 and you’ll be stuck with the listening group until 2am and they’ll only leave once Jethro Tull’s ‘Benefit’ has been played through for the third time or they run your liquor cabinet dry.

I’ve picked #2 now, after many years of foolishly trying to achieve #1 on a real world budget.

Just my two penny worth, I know many will have a different experience.

Hi emergingsoul ...

Yes, sadly, the BACCH DSP is indeed daunting, especially for old hands.  My journey includes keeping up with the audio industry, ever mindful of ways to improve my system, on a budget.  I've had the good fortune of cultivating audio friendships to help, often engineers grounded in science with an open mind to refinements in sound not yet aided by measurements.  Other Pinthrift Audiogon discussions address my experiences with the BACCH, plus Marigo micro dots, cabling, room-tuning and other ancillary roads to great sound.  

Best, Pin    

@pinthrift 

How do you like your Bacch System would be interesting to see how you can figure it. Can it be used within a home theatre set up?

I find the whole process a bit overwhelming to deal with.

I find Diana krall albums to all be of great quality. Wish others would be this good. Also the artist Her has well recorded music. I wish everything they did in the 70s was done using better recording techniques.  A lot of what you listen to in recent recordings is artificial and you don't know what's real instruments versus some synthesized equivalent.

Have you tried the DSP functionality of roon to help out in bass.  Different recordings have different bass.  Amplifiers do a lot to inspire bass inside your speakers. biamping is one way to enhance your bass.  a Lot depends upon the Quality of the recording and its that simple.

In response to your question, I read many mentions of EQ and a handful of room and setup questions..I don't recall anyone mentioning something like a UMIK-1 measuring mic and REW.

Once you're comfortable measuring and analyzing the results, I think you'll:

1. Be able to fix or mitigate any bass issues by setup or treatment

2. Live with the mix as is, knowing your system is producing what's there.

Of course not. Bad recordings sound bad  

@12many wrote:

Does Every Track Sound Great on Your System?

I would say most tracks are very much listenable on my setup. It wasn’t until I went fully active that resolution and transparency combined into a sonic balance of being both highly informative and holistically oriented. Tonally much is founded in the lower octaves, so getting that part right one way and the other isn’t trivial nor easy. I’m leaning towards what may be regarded as a British sensibility of "it’s all about the midrange," exemplified very well by the likes of large and active ATC monitors with their 3" superdome or large ESL speakers. Except I prefer the fullness, size of presentation and (more) natural presence of large horns. Coherency, tonality and overall balance are key traits in serving what is ultimately a very listenable experience, as I see it.

I recommend all audiophiles try both the LM and a studio piece. As I have done. I’ve tried LM, CO, Avalon, Millennia, Skyline, and soon to be Hendyamps Michelangelo. Only your ears can tell you what’s sonically best to you. But when you hear it, it will be obvious. 

Again, the Loki Max is an astonishing EQ specifically designed for home audio and its remote makes it in a class by itself. Nothing like it, it works perfectly. Absolute Sound "product of the year"...blah blah...Don't expect it to work like a studio specific designed EQ as it's not supposed to, but having had mine for a while now I can attest to its ability to make sub par recordings sound far better and do it silently...a classy, great looking gizmo. Ya gotta have "chicken head" knobs to be able to see the knobulations from across the room. 

😏....Has anyone done Krall with Krell? Just curious....
("....I know you love it, I see what you do...") 😇

@wsrrsw ....Guilty as regarded, yes....

...on all counts and accounts, finagled and otherwized. But....

Anyone who remembers Pogo, Churchy, and the CritterKrowd.....

....is about my age or preceding...*lol*

The main trick of Eq is to make it inobvious as possible but to make Your Local Version ’play’ as you’d hoped (or even had heard IRL) to manage.

I’ve had those ’Budget (don’t budge much) asaPractical) Blues’d for more than I’d preferred to live through...but have ’nuff for now...*S*

HO, and just ’hunch’ based....BACCH just reinforces the sweet dot into a line as of reported experience of the lucky ones @ the Really Big Shew.....Jury out to lunch over heard in a proper space v. hotel hostile hang....

...and a bigbuckbox with....real *Bang* v. "..well.....ok...." 

?....  I've got to show at a show....if only to prove what's feared. *LOL*

It’s hard to be a cynical optimist....but there you go to where you’ll be eventually...

Averting upwize, J

@12many 

I have almost everything Diana Krall has put out and I know that song very well.  The bass is not boomy, so there’s something else going on.  What speakers do you have? Are they front or back ported? What’s your room size? How far apart are your speakers? How far from the front wall are your speakers? How far from the side walls are the speakers?  How far is your listening position from the speakers?

In my experience, highly resolving gear is made to make top-notch recordings and top-notch masterings shine.
The enormous amount of great music that’s been recorded over the last century devoid of those particular qualities? It may (I emphasize the may here…it is certainly not a guarantee), it may sound worse on such a system.
Now you’ve got a compromise…high-fidelity media sounds awesome, but less high-end media is now worse.
There may be a good middle-ground where those Public Enemy and Metallica recordings sound kick-ass and those Rudy Van Gelder recordings/masterings and those Deutsche Grammophon LPs sound great too with minimized compromise either way.

Hi 12many & thanks for the topic...

This was my first listen to Krall's "Temptation."  It serves as a reminder to revisit Diane's catalog.  Sometimes, I find it necessary to let an artist simmer on the back burner over time, even decades.  The overall presentation is excellent, including the intro.  Despite HP embracing her records, back when, Diane simply didn't speak to me.  Not everybody is everything to everyone in our hobby, fortunately.  Then again, my sytem was quite raw back when.

The addition of my L12 Rythmik Servo Subwoofer has exposed tuneful deep bass in my little studio, even a small shudder at 20Hz.  "Temptation" sounds balanced and lovely from start to finish here.  My listening style is generally finding "that" sweet spot for bass, then set and forget.  Generally, my top shelf albums maintain consistency from start to end, all parameters of immersion into the performances.  Since the example above is a female artist, Janis Ian's "Between the Lines" has overtaken the powerful and pristinely produced "Breaking Silence" in rotation.  Ian's insights were incredible for such a tender age.  "Ancient Heart" is another interesting album from Tanita Takaram, written at age 19.  Try "Twist in My Sobriety."  Still, her vinyl was on my back burner well over a year.

The addition of the BACCH DSP provides deeper insight into recording production.  I've written here about Paul Simon's "Graceland."  There is inconsistency in the recording techniques, yet overall, I find very little disturbing.  In more commonly found genres, a deeper study of the recording labels, their recording techniques and production goals can turn up many unexpected gems, found with our uber streaming services.  Main roads, to paved side roads and off-roading to unpaved back roads is a delight.  It's so exciting to be a music lover nowadays!

More Peace          Pin          (bold print for old eyes)

The biggest difference between analog and digital EQ is the naturalness and decay of cymbal strike, those attributes being much better with analog. But there are great advances recent years in digital algorithms, and the gap is closing. I still prefer a treble boost or “air band” boost on analog hardware. BUT…I was quite impressed by what I heard with BACCH preamp. 

Hi 12many & thanks for the topic...

This was my first listen to Krall's "Temptation."  It is a reminder to revisit Diane.  Sometimes, I find it necessary to let an artist simmer on the back burner over time, even decades.  The overall presentation is excellent, including the intro.  Despite HP embracing her records, back when...she simply didn't speak to me.  Not everybody is everything to everyone in our hobby.  Then again, my system was quite raw back when. 

The addition of my L12 Rythmik Servo Subwoofer has exposed tuneful deep bass in my little studio, even a small shudder at 20Hz.  Temptation sounds balanced and lovely from start to finish here.  My listening style is generally finding "that" sweet spot for bass, set and forget.  Generally, my top shelf albums maintain consistency from start to end, all parameters of immersion into the performance.  Since the example above is female artist, Janis Ian's "Between the Lines" has overtaken the powerful and beautifully done "Breaking Silence" in rotation.  Amazing those insights were available to her at such a tender age.  "Ancient Heart" is another interesting album from Tanita Takaram, written at age 19.  Her vinyl was on back burner for over a year. 

The addition of the BACCH DSP provides deeper insight into the productions.  I've written here about Paul Simon's "Graceland."  There is inconsistency in the recording techniques, yet overall, I find little disturbing.  In more commonly found genres, a deeper study of the recording labels, their recording techniques and production goals can turn up many unexpected gems, especially with our quality streaming services.  Main roads, to side roads, to unpaved back roads.  It's so exciting to be a music lover nowadays!

More Peace        Pin               (bold print for old eyes) 

Just search “equalizer in a hi fi system Audiogon on google. That’s how I pull it up

@asvjerry You is educated. As this Does Every Track Sound Great on Your System discussion has morphed, as they often do, into EQ and that a bit into good and evil (very evil in the hands of evil doers IMHO) of AI all I can conjure up is “We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us” Walt Kelly

Not all daddy oh's here have untold dedicated ducats devoted to bits and pieces of hardware and that's a real life dichotomy that has many seeking information on these fora of getting the most bang for their boodle. 

Ah....audiophilia, whither goest thou?

@tlcocks Link to other thread please? (You can PM me on Agon if you don't want to share here)

Oh, there I also described my one listening experience with BACCH preamp. Is the real deal. See other thread. 

@wsrrsw , thanks. There was a lot said about digital vs analog and BACCH on the other thread I had mentioned. I won’t repeat here. Suffice to say here that I prefer analog EQ for preserving naturalness, soundstage, transience, 3D and timbre. It’s simply more hi fi than digital. I have compared Roon and many others to my analog piece. Vastly prefer analog. Sound is incredible. 

Ah....audiophilia, whither goest thou?

Pretty, oh yeah...

Vicious?  To the ducats dedicated to pursue, Yes....

@wsrrsw ... yeah, although I'm waiting to see if it can all good 'further into' the space we find ourselves stuck with being in.  

I've daydreamed over PS 'room occupant sensing' + auto FT room eq + 'driver *power steering* + AI....'scary' becomes immersed and follows you around...

Instead of a 'bigger boat'....."We're going to need a Qputer...."

Q = quantum, of course..... *L* ;)

@tlcocks Roon has some EQ capabilities but I don't use. Weiss DAC in use has more EQ do-dads and after messing around I don't use.  BAACH for MAC (when in use) is the mother of all EQ's as it measures the room and makes many adjustments. FYI BAACH for MAC can be had for about the same price as the Ngtubeeq EQ. It's scary good.

Every track sounds good. This is a tribute to professional engineers. They captured the sound. It's up to us to extract it from the grooves/pits/tape. 

For the pros, their living depends on getting great sound. For us, it's just enjoyment. 

If somebody paid some money to produce recordings (incl. poor recordings) which is not cheap, somebody likes it's performance or sound. 

What is more important? The music or the sound. The performance of artists matters the most in reproduced music. If our audio reproduces the original sound/music, we still like many poorly recorded great performance music.

The problem is that our audio sounds very different from the original music. It is un-natural sound with lots of noise (glare, distortion) even if a'philes don't hear it. To regular ears (me, women, non-a'philes), even all world greatest $million systems (and every other systems) sound un-natural (bright glare, veil, harsh noise) which are un-listenable.

So, blame your bad sound audio systems. Not the recordings. Alex/WTA

"Can anyone listen to the first 20 second of the song Temptation by Diana Krall "

10, at most

For the past 20+ years, I've been listening to Magnepan or Electrostatic speakers, which are EXTREMLEY revealing, which could be a drawback. I've learned to find music that has been recorded well, which doesn't mean that I don't listen to poorly recorded music, I just have separate playlist. So, to answer your question, no, not every track sounds good on my system. I've purchased and use the Schiit Lokius, it helps but it does not substitute for poorly recorded music.

12many OP

Some bass great, other bass bad: It’s your space then, certain bass frequencies (or their overtones), not all, are causing problems, becoming stronger/weaker/mud by the mix of reflections of those/some specific frequencies.

I would try different positions and different toe-in, I just posted this about that:

Toe-In Alternates

"Thanks all. Good info. My issue is not so much about a poor quality recording, just that some good recordings are coming across with a bit too much bass energy, while other sound good, even when they have bass content. It may be the room or speaker positions or me - maybe I am not accepting enough of the artists/mixers choice to have more bass in some parts of the song. I don’t have subs in my system, but did have this issue before when using subs."

No:  not every track sounds good on my system.

A revealing system makes a crap source sound even crappier.

Amen!

By way of example with a focus on bass, for some songs I like the amount of bass, then another song I feel like it needs more bass to hit harder, and then another song I feel like there is too much bass and it is boomy. Does that ever happen to you? I feel like I am getting the treble sorted out, but going back and forth on the bass. Can anyone listen to the first 20 second of the song Temptation by Diana Krall from the

If you are sitting on top of a modal peak or two, any track that has significant content at that frequency could boom you all the way to China town (Boom Shacka laka). Plot your room modes, position yourself out of such modes or use a pair of subs at the ’correct locations’ to ’cancel’ those modes out.

Some crappy recordings from the 80s and so on will be bass flaccid. If that’s the case, turn the tone controls knob clockwise. If the listener is a "pure" individual and refrains from usage of gear with EQ, tone controls, etc, well, such is his predicament (One lays in the bed he makes). The number of recordings he may really enjoy could drop from 5000 to 5.

Every recording you have ever heard in life has already gotten EQ’d all the way to high heaven before it got put on a CD or vinyl for you (it ain’t pure). There is nothing wrong with EQ’ing it to your taste if the mastering guy (who got way too high the night before) screwed it up while he EQ’d away.

12many OP

221 posts

05-03-2024 at 02:42am 

Thanks all.  Good info.  My issue is not so much about a poor quality recording, just that some good recordings are coming across with a bit too much bass energy, while other sound good, even when they have bass content.  It may be the room or speaker positions or me - maybe I am not accepting enough of the artists/mixers choice to have more bass in some parts of the song.  I don't have subs in my system, but did have this issue before when using subs.

@12many did you read that article? It is exactly about your query, as I’d mentioned. @yoyoyaya also gave you a sound (pun!) explanation.

All the EQ stuff / kit discussion would be useful, maybe, if you opt to use more power and software.

Laptop in the listening chair as a remote got a chuckle from me 😉