Do you trust your ears more than measurements?

A complex question. One example of why the ear, unaided, is not best.

1. I set up my rig. I thought the bass sounded great.

2. A longtime poster here recommended measuring to see what the SPL graph was, then adjusting things in various ways. I did that.

3. When I listened again, I had no idea how much better it could be. It was beyond my comprehension. Without measuring, I'd have never gotten there.

Repeat the above scenario for measuring impulse graphs and really focusing the soundstage. 

The ear is easily pleased. Measurement offers a way to try things which please the ear even more.

It's a dialectic.

Absolutely - 100%, but I do use long term listening when making decisions.  Listening is how I experience music through my system, and how I determine what sounds best. Even if what I like doesn’t measure how someone else prefers, it’s still what I like to hear.

 

 

Hilde45 said it better than i could..

 

It is a dynamic process of learning and experimenting and training between physical measures set of parameters and the ears/brain impression... It is psychoacoustics ...😊

If i must trust my ears/brain by definition if i want to tune my systems/room, i must also train and educate my ears/brain using various measurements isolated parameters to refine and correct my first senses impressions.

 Then debates between subjectivists and objectivists crowds  is non sense...Psychoacoustics say it all ...

 

Audio is subjective. 

Sad this has to be asked.  Those trading measurements for clicks are misleading many.

I spend money to please my ears. I measure to figure out WTF is happening, not to tell me what "good" sounds like.

So, if you ask me, what are the best amplifiers ever made, clearly the CJ Premiere 12s. How do they measure? Kind of like garbage!! :D

OTOH, I rely heavily on frequency and distortion measurements to guide m in building new speakers as well as setting the up, repeatably and predictably in a room.

Even then however, lots of studies show that we like different overall amounts of bass. Who should win? My mic or your ears? Tell me this: who worked hard for the home, amp and speakers? You did, so your personal and emotional tastes should win.

Also, the measurements most audiophiles read about were decided upon 50 years ago, so I cannot believe that they these simple half dozen or so measurements we read for an amp or speaker are inclusive of all that can happen in an ear brain mechanism for everyone, or that the mastering engineer in 1982 was listening to my system at the time, so .... be true to your own decadence I think.

No sense measuring without listening. So it’s not an either or. You can listen without measuring but when time comes to figure out what’s wrong or could be made better you can only guess and the devil is always in the details. No doubt measurements can only help if used correctly so there is a learning curve to tackle there before one can hope for positive results.

I’ve recently measured all my rooms using Room EQ Wizard freeware and that provides the information needed to make proper adjustments that make a night and day difference in each case. If you haven’t measured your room, you are working with a huge handicap. I suspect many would be off the hifi merry go round a lot faster once they come to the realization that it’s largely room acoustics they hear so it’s important to know what those are in order to be able to cut to the chase. Throwing more money at the problem alone is not a very effective way to fix what’s broken in most cases.

Dan Foley from Audio Precision wrote an interesting short article in 2016. A few clips from the article:

• "As he explains, instrumentation noise floor is an overlooked contributor for the reason we are not able to measure a particular audible “distortion,” especially with low sound pressure level (SPL) signals."
• "the reason given as to why a particular audible “distortion” cannot be measured is that the measurement equipment doesn’t have sufficient signal processing capabilities, such as measurement bandwidth or Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) resolution."

article: "Test and Measurement: “I Can Hear It. Why Can’t I Measure It?”"

I use my ears, 100%.

Every once in a while, I get the bug to change some settings, adjust some parameters, that sort of thing...

Invariably, I tune it back to where it was (or very, very close, anyway).

That leads me to believe I’m pretty much at the limits of my equipment. I’m OK with that.

I have never, ever had anyone who has listened to my system not leave smiling.

I have no idea how it measures. Sure sounds good, though. 😎

Funny how ignorant people may be because they are lazy or lack the time and energy necessary to learn ...😁

Measurements are not all about mere  electrical factors of gear design by the way ...

They can be physical mechanical measures...

They can be acoustical measures with various parameters...

They can be psychoacoustics measures...

Then claiming all is subjective impression is pure ignorance...Sorry...

Then claiming that all is objective measures  most of the times with few electrical measures specs as in ASR forums about a piece of gear ISOLATED from all other mechanical and acoustical and psychoacoustical  measures if connected to a specific system in a specific  for specific owner specific mearured ears is RIDICULOUS....

All these measures imply a variation of the possible set of parameters which must be correlated to your own specific ears impressions...

Then why people are so dumb and divide themselves in two blind  opposite crowds ? ( it remind me of the Trumpist opposed to the Bidenist )

It is because of the conditioning by marketing power focussing to their selling pitch about   ONE pice of gear to sell  at a times to the gullible reading the price tag as truth ...

What we buy matter less than the way we will embed it by listening in a training process by varying the set of possible mechanical,electrical and acoustical parameters of the system in a specfic chosen room . Period. 😊

Acoustics science rule audio and this include room acoustic as well as psychoacoustics not price tag or electrical design few specs measures confirmed or not... A system synergy cannot be ruled and established  and confirmed  only by few electrical measures, it takes more measures and of different kind,  and it takes our ears to learn the measured and to rule them by chosing the right set FOR US  because i must decide of my room dimensions and speakers types etc ......

Ones ears are a far more sensitive instrument than all of the commonly used measurements / charts taken together by an enormous amount. Trained ears / mind is an order of magnitude more sensitive. 
 

So 100% ears.
 

There may be some top high end audio designers that are able to tell what something will sound like with many measurements of various variables.. after decades of experience. But for those that want to assemble a system, learning about sound and training your ears by listening is the only reasonable approach.

I use my ears always.  I’m in it to enjoy my music. I dilly around with speaker placement a little. I get my gear in place and make sure it’s properly cabled and and set up and I’m happy. I’m not in it for a science project. I’m in it for the joy of the music. 

100% ears +100% mechanical ,electrical and acoustical measures = psychoacoustics intelligence and mature audio experience in a dynamic process going from the ears to the parameters in a cycle which is called : optimization of a system in a room for my specific ears ... ( ideally we must measures also our Inner ears and the HTRF factor)

 

 

Anything else is "branded name" marketing promotion for our favorite piece of gear or worst : price tag audiophile superstition called "my taste" or worst called "my experience" ... 😁...

As an example of the thing we must learn, at the price of loosing money and wasting our time; i just listened to an interesting video of Jay , a high end reviewer here and dealer, an honest dude, but he learned after spending money on hundreds of amplifiers and speakers ( high end products) he just learned very recently that room acoustic matter as much as any gear if not more at the end...😁

I am sure he will learn soon why all stereo system are flawed and how to cure it ... But it is another story...😊

Then spare your money and time , more than just room acoustic, read and study acoustics articles and psychoacoustics research basics, among other very basic mechanical and electrical factors, and suspend any upgrading expanse, try some experiments and think again instead of throwing money at the race of upgrading... Learn how to embed ANY system with all kind of measures and some acoustic experiments and perhaps as myself you will be surprized by the results...

My hobby is now listening music not a foolish upgrading race or a frustrated audio experience... A relatively low cost system ( we dont all have the same budget for sure) well chosen and well embed can give minimal acoustical satisfaction passed a minimal threshold... So much so, it does not appear as a stopgap but as the first level of audiophile experience... sound ectasy begin here ... No need to invest much money at all cost if you learn how to do it right to begin with...

The good news is it does not takes so much money...

The bad news is it ask for studies and times...

But being creative is more fun than giving your hard won money...

If you are without short budget and with a deep pocket, forget my post, and buy your dream high cost system plug it on the wall and called it audiophile TOP experience with the price tags to prove it for sure...😊

After all we are all in our own world and with our own needs...

 

Then to answer the OP , his question makes not much sense because we must trust our ears for sure but we must train our ears too than we must experiments with all kind of measures and varying parameters...

Opposing hearing and measuring is stupid.... We must correlate the two in a learning cycle... If we want to UNDERSTAND with our ears and if we want to hears with our brain working...

 

When I read the subject line my initial response was I trust my ears.  Then I read @hilde45 comment and I reconsidered.  I trust my ears and not  strictly measurements.  However, listening and then taking measurements in my room allowed me to make changes so things sound even better.  I agree measurements cannot possibly tell the entire story or even most of it, but in room measurements can be revelatory.  They have allowed me to make changes to something that, initially, was pleasing and make it better.

Sad this has to be asked. Those trading measurements for clicks are misleading many.

False dichotomy.

I use my ears, 100%...
I have no idea how it measures. Sure sounds good, though.

If you’re happy, you’re happy. That doesn’t mean it can’t sound better. But if you’re happy not knowing that, good for you. Wallow in contentment! Enjoy!

Ones ears are a far more sensitive instrument than all of the commonly used measurements / charts taken together by an enormous amount. Trained ears / mind is an order of magnitude more sensitive.
So 100% ears.
I use my ears always. I’m in it to enjoy my music.

People who measure their rooms are in it to enjoy the music, too.

Ears are sensitive. But room acoustics are complex -- too complex for ears to contend with. No one surveys a field accurately by just "eyeballing it." Better measurements can lead to results -- results that our very sensitive ears can hear.

Is it too much of a bother to measure? Then just say that. But the supposition that "ears are enough" is just false.

You can listen without measuring but when time comes to figure out what’s wrong or could be made better you can only guess and the devil is always in the details....If you haven’t measured your room, you are working with a huge handicap. I suspect many would be off the hifi merry go round a lot faster once they come to the realization that it’s largely room acoustics they hear so it’s important to know what those are in order to be able to cut to the chase. Throwing more money at the problem alone is not a very effective way to fix what’s broken in most cases.

Exactly right. Of course, many on this thread sound content. If things sound good enough, then leave it alone. But I suspect the urge to bash measurement -- in conjuction with hearing -- is borne of a desire not to want to go there.

Audio is subjective.

But that statement is subjective, too, right? ;-)

Apples and Oranges discussion. Measurements and listening are too often mixed up and made into some silly arguments that I've seen. Listening is really all that matters, to most consumers, not all. Measurements however can indicate if a piece of gear is capable of doing what it is said to be capable of. Both can be good tools for evaluation, but one does not replace the other. People get all wound up about the sites that perform measurements, for no good reason usually. Measurements show the undeniable capabilities of devices without bias. If a device in testing cannot properly reproduce tones, waves, signals, etc, that device may still sound great to the humans. Listening matters, because the goal is good sound. Measurements and listening do not replace each other. They should both be used to evaluate. 

I’m not dissing measurements.  They are not that important to me as what my ears hear.  The joy the music brings.  My ears tell depth width detail soundstage and musicality. They are what I depend on the most. 

Time to have a real conversation.  I see a lot of comments about placebo. I hear a lot of comments that cables can’t make differences and components that are a certain price are a waste of money.  I try to comment on what I have heard. I can’t tell the next man that what he is or is not hearing.  I think there is a lot of I know more than you in our hobby.  I wouldn’t not comment on people systems that I haven’t heard. I think it’s arrogant to think that those that don’t agree with you about how THEIR SYSTEM SOUNDS THAT THEY HAVE NEVER HEARD! 

@benanders Perfect response to all caps shouting. 

It is very revelatory to observe that people conflate electrical measurement with physical acoustic measurements and dont even know about psycho-acoustics measurements...

Ignorance rule ...😁

  I concur that I found Hilde comment interesting.  It's always been the ears for me but there is nothing wrong with experimentation and if measurements facilitate that, why not?  However in the end the ears have it.

The ears and listening rule OUR system room...Not audio....

Acoustics and psycho-acoustics rule audio...

Why did i say that ?

Because non trained ears in acoustic cannot understand their own limitation... Buying 40 amplifiers is not a ears training and it is even not knowledge, it is only a seller expertise.... And i am not a seller ... And electrical measures of gear design is only a limited set of measures and it is not enough... Physical and acoustical set of measures matter even more...

The "trained" ears rule audio and trained ears come from acoustic basic concepts and experiments...

If you cannot control timbre, imaging, soundstage and immersion in your room you cannot know what these interacting concepts means working together...

This is why people in audio forum do what most reviewers do: they sell gear upgrade as main solutions...

This is not knowledge sorry. It is marketing.

Then trusting more his ears than necessary  experiments is preposterous and counter productive...

And trusting electrical measures only over anything else and over his ears is blind ignorance...

However in the end the ears have it.

Of course.

I measure how much salt I put into a recipe. 

Then I taste it. 

If needed, a bit more salt.

If it tastes good, I write down how much salt went into the recipe for next time I make it.

Measure-taste-measure-taste. Memorialize.

Of course it ends with tasting. How could it not? ;-)

Ear, Measurements, Knowledge, Final Ear

These Speakers In That Space (assuming speakers do NOT have level controls)

1. place speakers in your Preferred Location. Listen. Refine that location and toe-in by EAR

 

2. MEASURE, whataya got, __________? write that Knowledge down.

a. inexpensive sound pressure meter, bottom hole for tripod, seated ear height

https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-Pressure-30-130dBA-Warranty/dp/B00ECCZWWI

b. frequency test tracks, I use tracks 9 to 38

https://www.discogs.com/release/7290000-Various-Amazing-Bytes

3. FIND best location and toe-in using MEASUREMENTS.

 

4. Listen, any reason not to use your preferred location?

 

5. Tone Controls, both measure and final Listen

 

6. Equalizer Needed?

 

7. Room Treatments Needed?

​....................................................

Speakers WITH Level Controls

Those Speakers in _____? Space is what Level Controls are for.

Measure, adjust, measure, then listen, change to taste, BUT, to maintain excellent Imaging, (no frequency wander) you need measurements. 

Move the speakers to a different space, use the Level Controls: Those Speakers for That Space

I'm assuming and hoping the manufacturers of my equipment do some measurements but there is no reason for me to do any at home.  I setup by ear the way I prefer it.  I definitely spend some time doing that.  Listening is a skill. Hone stand learn to trust it

@knotscott i agree. I always trust my ears. They have to bring joy to your ears. 

I’ve found that with reliable sources and using both, that my ears typically help confirm what the metrics indicate. So the stars have been aligning pretty well for me in that regard of late…..the best of both worlds.

@calvinj for sake of mild curiosity - do you employ DSP in your setup, and if you do, are DSP settings being adjusted by ear?

@benanders because of my listening space. I can’t. A lot of us audiophiles are limited in where we can place things and the room itself.  

Ah, okay @calvinj . Thing is, DSP doesn’t really require physical space - certain modules fit the footprint of a playing cards deck, with the software run entirely from within the module or upstream in part from a standard computer. Think “desktop-to-larger old school-style DAC” footprint for any typical DSP module. You could fit at least half a dozen units in the empty spaces on the shelf in your system photo.

To the contrary of your limited space concern, the less listening space you have (and/or the more conflicting the boundaries there are), the better DSP might work for that setup, especially a bass-heavy rig like yours. Similar measurements to what AVR’s have used for calibration over two decades is an over-simplified but conceivable likeness.

 

On arguing in favor of tuning a system (1) by ear-only vs. (2) an integrative approach of listening and measuring/trying signal processing to better inform you of possibilities:

If you just don’t want to test your system with measurements and attempted corrections in the digital domain, that’s your prerogative and it’s totally fine. But it’s also choosing a stance of “ignorance is bliss.” IOW, you don’t actually know which to trust because no informed position on tuning a system (1) by ear-only vs. (2) by ear with measurements as a guide, can be held by someone who has not tried both. You cannot have an informed opinion about two things if you’ve only tried one of them. Make sense?

 

Regarding measurements for selecting kit to purchase (vs. tuning a system already had), @erik_squires  summarized potential advantages vs. pitfalls concisely and objectively.

I measured a lot in my younger years.  I got the Behringer stuff and did digital eq to get my bass response near perfect.  I built tons of bass traps and spent all kinds of time messing around in my basement.  I'm glad I did it, I got a little bit of a feel for how a graph translates to what I perceive.  I rarely do anything like that now, though.  The last time I did I set my sub level by ear and measured it and I had set it just about perfect.  I decided that in-room bass response can be pretty uneven in the deep bass and it doesn't bother me.  You can EQ it down 3-4 db and it'll help but if you eq it down 15 to get it flat it sounds weird.  

A lot of good answers here. I’ve been working with measuring and listening for the last week, listening and noticing what I don’t like, and then trying to understand how to fix it. Measurements help get me in the ballpark. I know what a really bad sounding measurement looks like. What’s harder to tell is what a really good sound measurement looks like compared to a decent sounding measurement. There are a lot of different ways a system can sound good or bad. I'm using horns that can load down to 600Hz with some eq. If I move the crossover  from 600 Hz to 1000 Hz I can get more headroom and dynamics at the price of less natural tonal character because the dispersion isn’t as smooth at the crossover. I also get better imaging in some ways with the higher crossover because the midbass horn gets beamy between 600 and 1000 Hz. The measurements show lower distortion at high volume and better in room clarity at the higher crossover. My ears tell me the tonal quality matters more. I wish I could have it both ways, but the benefit of the higher crossover really shows when I crank it up louder than I usually want to listen.

Great post with which i concur... Thanks...

 

 

A lot of good answers here. I've been working with measuring and listening for the last week, listening and noticing what I don't like, and then trying to understand how to fix it. Measurements help get me in the ballpark. I know what a really bad sounding measurement looks like. What's harder to tell is what a really good sound measurement looks like compared to a decent sounding measurement. There are a lot of different ways a system can sound good or bad. If I move my crossover for my tweeters from 600 Hz to 1000 Hz I can get more headroom and dynamics at the price of less natural tonal character because the dispersion isn't as smooth. I also get better imaging in some ways with the higher crossover because it gets beamy between 600 and 1000 Hz. The measurements show lower distortion at high volume and better in room clarity at the higher crossover. My ears tell me the tonal quality matters more.

We may not all agree but there are many ways to approach your system.  Wealth of info here. 

I trust the measurements. At this point, audio is not a mystery to science. It knows how to measure the whole frequency spectrum. It knows what the vast majority of people prefer. And it knows about people's proclivity towards cognitive dissonance. Companies like Harmon Karden have been measuring this for decades and sharing the results.

I want to start out neutral and if my preferences differ from that I can always tweak with a slight tone adjustment. But if the measurements start out all over the place, all the tone adjustment in the world may not be able to fix it. Some people will be outliers. Not so much in audible capabilities but in preferences. And that's fine too.

My approach is to set to flat and adjust to taste.

Room eq 1st, spl 2nd, 3rd for taste.

Best of both whirld's, mho.

Been doing that more or less for over 30 yrs. now.

I suspect it all comes down to how you hear what you do, and how you prefer 'that' to 'be'; which is probably as unique as your fingerprints...

...which is Not to infer that I wouldn't like or enjoy listening to yours, mind you...

I'll just need a few moments to adjust my 'onboard eq'.... ;)

Have a happy Sunday, y'all...

 

I trust the measurements of my ears.

@viridian exactly.  Trust yourself and your own experiences.  You are the one living with it. Most will argue that they have a secret formula. But they don’t even know how you like your music.  They don’t know your equipment etc. trust yourself. 

My new Von Schweikert VR9 SE MK2 speakers REQUIRE listening adjustments.  They have 7 adjustments per speaker and are independent (very different in the highs in particular from one another).  One for each tweeter/supertweeter and four for the subwoofer per speaker. 

so let’s tease out more detail on @viridian ’s apt analogy, buying a car.  Measurements are a really effective way to narrow down my selections when I buy a car.  I always look at horsepower, but of course you should also consider weight (as all horsepower is not the same. obviously).  Even then, I look at additional measurements, like torque, 0-60, 1/4 mile time, gpad times in car and driver (if road and track).  Is that enough? of course not.  Doesn’t tell me anything about how crisp shifting is (I’m a manual transmission guy), nor does it tell me about the interior, the overall driving experience.  But the measurements are a great way to narrow down my choices as I get serious about making a decision.   

No difference in audio.  I dare anyone to say they don’t consider power output measurements on amps before they decide to consider them by listening.  Similarly, it’s critical to know the minimum impedance and efficiency of speakers before I bother to listen to them (particularly as zIm a tube amp guy).  And would anyone dare to ignore the output measurements on low output MC cartridges before making SUT decisions?  Of course not, that would just be silly. So clearly ignoring measurements would be a mistake, just as ignoring your ears would be a mistake.  

Btw, my cars are a 2012 Audi S4 and a 2103 Golf R, both manual tannies with APR stage 1 tunes to increase hp and torque.  Very sweet rides. 

one more point: confirmation bias is alive and well in car performance, just like audio.  Case in point: I have had numerous instances where, right after getting my car washed, I experience this compelling sense that my car handles better - swear to god!  Why?  Well I’ve just spent an insane amount of money - $36 most recently, before tip! - and now my pride and joy looks beautiful.  I’m feeling good, and I’m focused on this amazing machine’s performance in a way I hadn’t during the dog days of January and early February when I kept putting off cleaning the car.  So I have an enhanced appreciation of my car’s performance, even though that performance has not changed one iota.  It happens every time, even though I know it can’t be real!  That’s confirmation bias, and that’s why I’d be a fool not to consider measurements!

I don't necessarily think it's a constant, rather it be high emf's, power inconsitencies, data lags, or just mood, the changes effect my reality. So ears are patially out.

Don't measure, but look at some specs, which seem flamboyant. I like it warm and I don't rely on artists intentions because a engineers can change the affect, but who wants to rely on that rationale of a mind.

Salt sounds reasonable. Lol room acoustics seem like a definate.

last point (maybe?) thank god the car wash hasn’t started a marketing campaign that their special mix of soap and wax improves the performance of my S4 and Golf.  My god, I might be willing to pay them thousands!!!!!

Confirmation and falsification of biases dont have the same impact on everyone...

A modern man dont think that black cat can give him black death...

Myself i dont buy costly high end gear, then i cannot suffer as much from this bias which induce us to perceive a better a system because it is better looking and more costly...

I used acoustics as biases set then i must train myself to perceive and act on real concepts, i am compulsively push to do it then i forgot esthetic of the gear and his price ...😊

Now my main audio bias and prejudice 😁 is : it is not necessary to pay 100,000 bucks to have high fi acoustic experience and it is not necessary to buy costlier upgrades to reach this magical minimal acoustic threshold...

Why ?

Because i learned by experiments that this threshold can be reached , with synergetical pieces of gear EMBEDDED rightfully in their mechanical, electrical and acoustical working dimensions...

Then i am now way more likely to suffer from these biases as esthetics, publicity, higher price upgrade because my learning biases for acoustics concepts parameters controls are too powerful and put the other biases at rest as "black cat" superstition, i became more conscious with basic knowledge ... These old biases concerning esthetic and prices amd marketing act as mice on me now not lions no more ...

Pick the right biases set , study and experiment BEFORE upgrading ; then like me perhaps you will even did not feel upgrade as so much useful anymore and especially not necessary at all cost ...

For those who need the point on the letter "i", my opinion will not change nor my biases set, even with a better system than my actual one, at higher cost and with an improved design.

Why ? 

Because  audio truth cannot change with esthetic prejudices  and higher price biases : in truth audio experience is directly and linearly related to our own acoustics mastery and our own electrical and mechanical basic knowledge first and last, nevermind the price or the quality design level of your gear  and to nothing else at the end ...

 

@mahgister 

you are clearly way more evolved than I am! Next thing you’re gonna say is you think women should have equal rights, or something. I am not worthy!

 

@mdalton oh but they do have car wash mixes. Certain soaps that are hotter for cleans and then cooler mixes that are cooler for sheens. Each at a price tier. Lol seriously, its similar to audio.

Please read what i wrote or learn how to read...

I am not "more evolved" as you just suggested , i said we must learn how to hear with acoustics studies...Then the look of the gear and their price will no more be a so powerful magnet for our ignorance...

I dont understand your rant about women right...

 

@mahgister

you are clearly way more evolved than I am!