OP, many recommended plugging your amp directly into the wall to not starve the amps draw when using a shared conditioner. Two things:
1. Most are high power amps, tubes and/or mono blocks.
2. Most have installed whole house surge protection, eliminating the need for your conditioner’s surge protection.
I have a lower powered amp (Moon 330A), no whole house surge protection & never play my system loud (sounds great at lower volumes). I have my amp plugged into my 2400 & feel I am loosing nothing while adding protection. YMMV
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@richardbrand +1 on "an expensive power amplifier is likely to benefit least from power conditioning”
in analog design requirements, more noise / ripple / drops in the AC power requires more circuitry, higher cost components, etc., to isolate “non ideal” AC power issues from sound..
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@bzawa
I don't understand not using a power conditioner with an amp. I would have guessed that conditioned power would be good for it. Do amps not need conditioning?
All mains-driven amplifiers convert incoming Alternating Current (AC) to Direct Current (DC) to power their internal power supply rails, which operate at a different voltage. The normal arrangement is a hefty voltage transformer followed by a bridge rectifier, with the output smoothed by huge capacitors. In general, the more expensive the amplifier, the beefier these components are and the less the impact of AC variations on the DC rail voltage.
Out of all your electronic components, an expensive power amplifier is likely to benefit least from power conditioning, especially if the power conditioner is wimpy, in my opinion! I also think most electrical noise is generated by your own components ...
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@wofford
I will leave you with this, sea salt tastes different than mineral salt, and pink salt tastes different still! They are all salt!
They are all mainly salt. None is 100% pure sodium chloride which is what we mainly think of as salt. The chemical differences account for the difference in taste, and the difference in colour. Sea water today has about 1 part magnesium for every 10 parts sodium, and even more sulphate per chloride ion.
Mineral (rock) salt and pink (Himalayan) salt were deposited when the sea chemistry was a bit different. Himalayan salt mainly comes from Pakistan quite a long way from the mountains.
You can taste a difference which is reflected in measurable difference in composition and even crystal size! The hysteria from health gurus around the merits of various salts does have a familiar ring to me ...
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Wow, I am grateful for all the responses. A big thank you to all! I don't understand not using a power conditioner with an amp. I would have guessed that conditioned power would be good for it. Do amps not need conditioning? Thanks
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The first thing that I would replace are the stock power cables for the SVS subwoofers. Audioquest, Shunyata and Audience have some affordable choices that make a big difference over the stock cord. Make sure any amplifiers are plugged directly into the wall outlets because any power conditioner will limit current to them. It's okay to plug source components into the conditioner.
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You mentioned Pine Tree Audio - what do you think of their Iso-Power 15A Power Filter?
Sorry, forgot to answer this. I’d wait until you can buy a better conditioner like the Core Power I linked above that will likely make a more significant difference. Another option, and what I did, was to wait til a used Audience AR1p conditioner becomes available that you should be able to get for about $200 and then plug this power strip that’s very highly regarded into it that will give you nine outlets. So for around $335 you’ll have a very good conditioner on the cheap for all your components.
https://us.rs-online.com/view/search?keyword=Wiremold%20L10320
But I would still give Pine Tree Audio a call because they’re apparently very helpful if you tell them what you’re looking for, and you may be able to try some PCs on the cheap just to get started replacing those awful stock cords and see if they make a meaningful difference.
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@erik_squires
Sorry, lets talk cables. Honestly always like to encourage first timers to consider making their own using high quality shielded cables from Parts Connexion.
I discovered that making PCs was pretty easy and enjoyable. I dont have the ears or the expertise to say whether they make a difference in SQ or not, but the sense of fulfillment is undeniable.
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A good thing about power cords is that they seem to hold value very well ... buy a used cord from a manufacturer that doesn't change models often... my first was a SR Master Coupler .. sold it 8 years later for same price I paid used...also easy to borrow and try...trust yourself, as I'm sure you would prefer to not spend money on a useless item...unfortunately you might find you prefer to sound of an expensive one !!!
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In high end audio, one can always find a reason to upgrade, until you upgrade yourself to the moon, LOL!!! Question is, do you feel you need to upgrade? And not if others feel you need to upgrade. Happy listening.
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A 16 pound power supply in a DAC. I love over engineering of electrical devices.
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You are like me when it comes to power cables. I can't say for certain if they are worth the upgrade or price but I contemplate trying cables more often these days. Living in Florida I do use a Surge protector. I bought a somewhat expensive Panamax myself a few years ago. It was like a $800 unit I got for under half price for being an open box & the original owner scratched the poop out of the top of it. At some point a buddy of mine brought his outlet noise reading gizmo over. Half the outlets on the Panamax were good..the other half was nosier than coming straight out of the wall. I bought a cheap Furman (under $100). No extra noise added.
For power cables I've made my own from Gotham power cables. Shielded & extremely flexible. Gotham 85025 to be exact. They have a heavier cable that is well liked in the 85055 but it's hard to find these days. Their newest hi-end series 86215 is supposed to be their best. All I can say about all of Gotham cables is that they are legit quality good. I don't know if they are adding or degrading to the sound.
I purchased 2nd hand a very heavy high percentage Silver material 10 gauge power cable for a power amp just a few years ago. My subjective perception was everything sounded brighter. I don't know if thats because the Silver = Bright bias was in my head but that is legitimately what I perceived over a couple months. I eventually put that cable on a subwoofer..doesn't sound bright there lol.
Like so many others have said..you really gotta try it. Building your own from quality power cables & connectors is Always a good option. I think the main thing is to just have quality copper cables & good connectors..shielded or not shielded. I'm good with copper wire. I really like these shielded Gotham cables. Pine Tree audio is a US cable maker that makes quality cables for normal prices. Ice Audio was a site I recently came across that seemed to have inexpensive (in comparison) cables that looked legit. But obviously there are hundreds to thousands of cable makers out there. DIY is always an option too...places like Parts Connexion or VH-Audio to name a couple.
If you end up trying something let us know your experience. I've always wanted to try the Shunyata NR cables..the ones actually listed as Noise Reduction.
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If you’re primarily source is vinyl - did apro do your TT set up? This might be the best value if not.
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One more thing, IMHO isolated banks for your analog & digital components is critical, unless you run two dedicated power lines & 2 separate power conditioners.
When installing my 2400, I accidentally plugged my turntable into the bank I was using for digital, and a digital component into the analog side. It sounded terrible, so I can personally attest to the recommendation to separate analog & digital.
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Based upon the recommendations from @erik_squires (very knowledgeable), I recently purchased a Furman P-2400 AR (the 20A version of his above recommendation) and the Furman PSD 8D, with very good results.
The 2400 provides voltage regulation, conditioning, surge protection & isolated banks for analog & digital (6 each). I use it for my main components & is full.
The 8D does everything except voltage regulation, with 4 each isolated banks. I use it for my secondary components (6 of 8 outlets).
I purchased both for less than $1,000 ($3,800 retail). Highly recommended.
On upgraded PC’s, never A/B’d, but just bought them… Audioquest NRG Z3 for amp, Y3 for remaining components. Reasonably priced & look good. Don’t know if they improved SQ, but did once buy a Pangea PC that actually degraded sound, so reasonable to assume one would see improvement with the right PC’s.
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You could borrow AC cables from the Cable Company and try different brands that way. The rental fee is 10% of the value of the cables, and you can apply that to the cost of any cables you buy from them. They discount some of their cables. I have been very pleased with their customer service, and other Audiogoners have also praised their customer service.
I have been pleased with Cardas AC cables on my preamp and amps.
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Puritan Labs PS 106 is reasonably priced power conditioner/surge protector, $1300. Yes, I run one on a smaller system. Patrick Cullen power cords are price/performance terrific. Yes, I run those in the same smaller system.
Balance need be struck considering your system. Nothing outrageous in price. Enjoy the ride and results. Cheers
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Maybe my components aren't audiophile enough to justify purchasing upgraded power cords.
You won't know until you try it. Do you buy from dealers, or used?
If you have a relationship with a good dealer see if you can borrow a good demo ($1000+) high current capable power cord from them, put it on your amp, plug it directly into the wall and see what difference there is.
If you hear a difference you will have to decide whether that is worth the asking price, and that will answer your question "Do I need upgraded power cables".
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People knowledgeable about electricity will tell you a power cable is a power cable and won't make any difference. People that are members of the church of audiophilia will tell you the differences "aren't subtle" (a favourite).
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There are times though (especially in dense musical passages) that the sound is stage is a blur - as if of all the instruments are coming from the same place.
A good power conditioner can sometimes help individual images pop by reducing noise. Here’s an EQUI=CORE 1000 if still available you could probably get for $600 I’d think.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650092255-core-power-tech-equicore-1000/
Also, how are your speakers positioned relative to the back and side walls, how far apart, how much toe in? Speaker positioning can also be a big factor in improving imaging and soundstage.
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If you are asking the question, the answer is no.
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Audioquest’s thunder cable improved my sound. Use it on the integrated. Seems background more quiet, better dynamics. Idk, Maybe I’m imagining it. I also swear by cableworld’s Electra 7 on a preamp. Using audioquest’s Niagara 1200 pwr cond and Edison receptacle. A AQ z3 PC from Pwr cond to Edison, 20 amp dedicated. Do what you want, have fun.
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So great questions! I will start by saying “everything makes a difference or nothing makes a difference.”
The question for you is, it worth the money in the end? Again, already stated above, you will have to decide and make sure you have a return option.
So for me in my system the upgrade from the very same Panamax to a Audioquest Niagra 1200 was not subtle! you are correct the Panamax is basically surge protection, no noise filtering or suppression. After that I proceeded to change out the power cable to the Niagra, then to the amp. The next would be your digital power and or pre amp. A great way to do this is using the lending library at The Cable Company! Call Steve, tell him what you have and pay to loan them out for two weeks. If you can’t tell any difference, return them and you had a nice forced listening session, if you did hear a difference you buy new or demo and apply your loan fee toward the purchase. A win win for very little money.
I will leave you with this, sea salt tastes different than mineral salt, and pink salt tastes different still! They are all salt!
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You ask good questions. Your system seems pretty well balanced.
Looking over your system. I think the biggest bang for your buck would be a good quality power conditioner... I recommend Shunyata or Isotec. It has the advantage of improving much of your system. If you plan on upgrading your system, then getting a good one will provide benefits far into the future. Since modest audio components basically scrimp on power conditioning in the component, external power conditioning can do a lot. Audiophile products like CDs, DAC, preamps tend to weight 30 + pounds... mostly from internal power conversion and conditioning... so that is one of the aspects not fully addressed in modest equipment.
Your integrated should be plugged directly into the wall. All power conditioners limit the amp. So, you are likely to get a notable improvement with a good quality power cord.
If long term you want a much better system, then the question of when to stop doing little tweaks and upgrade components. You don’t want to put too much into cords and wires when you could upgrade a component.
Having said that, if you want to upgrade your system sooner vs later... I would recommend a power conditioner now... then stop and save up for... a better preamp... which you would plug into the power conditioner and only use the amp portion of your integrated. Then as money permits upgrade other components.
If you simply want to get the very best performance out of what you have, then power conditioner and power cords. I found inexpensive ~<$200-300 are not generally worth it. Try used... used cables dot com. The integrated will get a pretty good boost from a good high amp cord. sThe rest of your equipment... not sure. You may have to try it to find out.
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Sorry, lets talk cables. Honestly always like to encourage first timers to consider making their own using high quality shielded cables from Parts Connexion.
In an area of heavy use of network and Wifi I like to make sure any cables I build are shielded to reduce the chance of noise coming in, especially after it’s already been cleaned up by a power conditioner. If you build one and hear no difference at all, or hear a great difference you will have learned a great deal without spending too much green.
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Hi OP,
Panamax and Furman are owned by the same company, and while some features have transferred some have not, and the mix of features per model is maddeningly complicated.
Key features for noise reduction are LiFT and the other is SMP. Lift is linear filtering and SMP is series mode surge protection. The latter also happens to work much better for noise reduction due to a variety of technical issues. Panamax still lists Linear Filtering as a key compnent of some of their models.
Another feature I am fond of is voltage regulation. Panamax and Furman both have some models with this features. I believe, but am not 100% sure that the better value among these features is either this one (15A) or this one (20A) but they lack some consumer features like switched outlets.
I _think_ Panamax at one point had a series mode protection model but if so I can no longer find it.
For noise and surge related issues I don't plug any equipment into the wall without them. Warranty's be damned, I'd rather prevent a surge than file a claim.
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Thanks so much for all of your comments. In response to your questions:
“What and why do you want to change?” Most of the time I'm pleased with the sound of my equipment. The sound stage is wide enough. Voice and instruments are detailed and separated enough. But could it be just a little bit better with the proper tweak? There are times though (especially in dense musical passages) that the sound is stage is a blur - as if of all the instruments are coming from the same place. But maybe this complaint should be directed at the recording not the equipment. Anyway, I hope I answered the question sufficiently.
“1) do you like your current SQ? 2): are all current power cables original? 3) does the wall outlet have significant IR drop, dimming light etc. when high current load is applied? vacuum cleaner turned on etc.”
I do like the sound quality of my system. All of the power cables are original. I don't notice any IR drop.
Thanks soix for the recommendations but the Equi=1000 is out of my price range. I liked the Equi=Core 600 but I need 5 outlets. You mentioned Pine Tree Audio - what do you think of their Iso-Power 15A Power Filter?
And thanks to soix and jl35 for pointing a finger at the Panamax.
Again, thanks to all of you
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You have a nice system and good cables. What and why do you want to change?
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The Panamax certainly isn’t doing you any favors. I’d replace that first with a good conditioner as that would benefit all your components at once and then address individual power cords when you can after that. The EQUI=CORE 1000 offers balanced power at an attractive price and worth a look.
https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/equicore
Both Ice Age Audio and Pine Tree Audio offer high value power cables if you want to explore those. Hope this helps, and best of luck.
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@bzawa I would love to help you if you’d tell: 1) do you like your current SQ? 2): are all current power cables original? 3) does the wall outlet have significant IR drop, dimming light etc. when high current load is applied? vacuum cleaner turned on etc.
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I felt my Panamax degraded sound quality, as do many power conditioners./surge protectors...I do like the results of my Cerious power cords (all 3 levels) in a wide range of systems...yes much debate, argument, and endless threads on this topic, many of which end up quite nasty...
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You will find members split on this question. Many believing power cables add to the sound and soundstage, while others will say it's all confirmation bias and PCs do nothing but move current from point A to B. Only your personal experience matters, so buy one that can be returned and see if it makes a difference on your system. Cheers.
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