On what I call "fine" changes to your system, in which I include power cables and power conditioners, I don't recommend A/B ing. Have a friend change (or not change) the setup while you leave the room for a while, then walk back in and see if you can recognize the change that power conditioners and cables make. In other words, do a blind test with a time lag. I say this because we audiophiles have trained our ears to hear fine changes when we're concentrating, but it's very difficult to hear fine changes when you have nothing to relate those changes to. In other words, can you actually hear the difference on a day-to-day basis?
I recently purchased a Shunyata Venom 16 with an expensive power cable. I heard the difference when I listened to the comparison of my system with the Shunyata and without. The system sounded darker and enclosed without. With the Shunyata the system was less dark and more open. Enough though that I would hear the difference if somebody pulled out the Shinyata and I turned on my system without knowing? Maybe not.
I know I would notice if my Hovland Radia amp were replaced. My non-audiophile neighbor noticed when I replaced it with a Linn amp. He didn't like the sound. I would notice if my Pass preamp were changed. And absolutely notice if my Sonus Faber Olympica Nova 5 speakers were changed to some other speaker. My power conditioner, not so much. It seems like a lot when you grit your teeth and A/B these fine changes, and I believe we audiophiles even pat ourselves on the backs for noticing differences. But on a day to day basis.... I'm not so sure.
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Yes, I believe a good power conditioner and power cables will improve your sound quality because that's been my experience. But, it may not be yours or at least not to the extent you think it important. One of the joys of this hobby for me is the pursuit of even small increases in sound quality, some times at what others consider substantial expense.
The first thing I'd recommend is a dedicated 20 amp line for your system only. Have a good electrician unit from the box to your system from a quiet, isolated portion of your box and make sure you have a good ground connection as well. This work is usually not too expensive. Probably the biggest benefits of better circuitry is the increase in wire gauge from the box and better receptacles that come to you with the process.
Then get yourself a decent power conditioner from your local dealer on trial. They come in all price ranges and won't choke the transients out of your amplifier like the Panamax is likely doing. In fact, plugging the amplifier directly to the wall may still be best. Just unplug it when storms come.
Next, try some well regarded power cables. All this equipment is system dependent. AQ's best conditioner didn't do as well for me as Shunyata but their top power cables are terrific. Your experience will likely be different.
But, this pursuit and the thrill of listening to life like music are what it's al about.
Enjoy...
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My “least expensive” comment was really a best bang for the buck. With a dedicated circuit, the background noise will be diminished tremendously. It lets the music shine. Cost is all labor. Get quote from an electrician.
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@stuartk I ran two lines and it was like $200 plus cost of the outlets I bought, but my walls were down at the time so may be more if they have to snake the wires and cut holes. Just to give you a rough idea.
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@zimwig
How much does this "least expensive" option add up to, on average?
I'm curious.
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I haven’t read through all the responses, but before upgrading your power cables you should install a dedicated electrical circuit. It’s the best, least expensive upgrade you can do and while your at it add a good quality outlet.
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@bzawa
You got your answer right away from @bigtwin. Order three or four from one of the online sellers that offer trial periods/refunds and audition them for yourself. Audio Advisor is one example.
Personally, I favor The Cable Co. You can borrow burned-in cables from them, listen and decide for yourself. This has become my go-to approach to cable upgrades. I just completed a power cable comparison using their cable lending library and opted to stay with my current brand but move up their line. If you’re interested, PM me and I’ll give you the name of the guy I always work with, there. Very knowledgeable, patient and no hard-sell tactics.
Good luck!
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@bzawa the important part of your question is that you’re asking other people what you "need", and in my experience, that’s just never the way to go.
fear of missing out means you’re already in fear ... so you’re not in a position to listen critically or to enjoy
Having said that ...
AC cables have a very real effect on the sound, and there are so many options out there, but it’s only something that you consider at the very end when you are happy with what you have and are looking for something to take it over the top without buying new equipment
when you get to that stage, I strongly recommend Shunyata Research. Not only is it very audible, what they sell, but it’s backed by science, and the pricing is incredibly reasonable for the quality… I believe they have the top quality products in the world
No bad artifacts. Great value
So the question is, what are you going for, and they have a number of options each with different flavors and different price points, but you can never go wrong buying anything from Shunyata
my three favorite cable products from Shunyata are the Theta, the Sigma X, and the new Omega QR, three very different price points
the Gemini 8 is a nice product for very reasonable money, and you can go up from there into Denali and Everest
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You have gotten quite a few measured responses regarding power cables, which I think is great. Too often these types of threads devolve to the cables do/don't make any difference and "anyone who thinks that they make a difference is deluded." I am firmly in the "everything makes a difference" camp, and in my system cables definitely do make a difference. You first have to understand that when most people say that something "makes a difference" or "improves the sound quality," they are talking about incremental differences, not "my system sucked and now its great."
In my system, I first tried an Audience Power Chord on my Plinius amp at the time. I immediately noticed better bass. I realized then that there was something to this PC thing to my surprise. An excellent PC BTW. Over the years I upgraded my system and now I have all Shunyata Sigma power cables, speaker cables and a Shunyata Everest power conditioner.
First, the Shunyata power cables are simply excellent. You can get a pair of Alpha's used at "reasonable" prices. I found that upgrading the power cable from stock on my ARC REF 6 preamp was a surprisingly good improvement. The Shunyata over the Pass stock cable was also a decent but not as great improvement. I found the power cable on my MSB DAC over stock made a minor improvement -- the least of the three. And bringing up the rear, putting a new power cable on my REL s/510 was a complete waste of money. No audible difference at all (to me). So yes, I think that good power cables will improve the sound of your system.
But the biggest surprise to me was when I decided to stop reading all of the hype about power conditioners and bought a Shunyata Everest with a Sigma power cable. That literally brought my system to a new level of soundstage, clarity, and dynamics. The improvement was not small. Again, not a new system, but it really refined it. I have my Pass 250.8 plugged into one of the Everest's high current outlets and it sings. The Everest HC outlasts are designed to handle power amps. I am very very happy with my Everest. Highly recommended!
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I’m looking into the acoustic zens. Just wondering why you suggested them. And if you don’t mind - what do you think about about Cardas Persecs?
Thanks @mclinnguy. I recommended them because you think the Kimbers are bright sounding and the AZs are not, and if they don’t work out you can turn around and sell them for little/no loss so very low risk to try. They walk that rare line of being nicely detailed in the treble but in a very refined way such that they don’t sound bright nor rolled off, and they offer excellent tonality, imaging, and 3D soundstage. If I were to sum them up I’d call them effortlessly natural sounding where nothing stands out. I’ve been using them in my system for about 20 years and they have held off all comers at or near their price, and I have recommended them to several people here over the years and all have been very happy/impressed with their performance. I don’t know anything about the Parsecs and couldn’t find any reputable reviews of them so unfortunately have no useful info there. In the past the more entry level Cardas offerings have tended to be on the warm side with a polite treble balance that I found to be rolled off with the ones I tried years ago (Ultralink or Quadlink I think — can’t remember), but I have no idea if the Parsecs have that quality or not. All I know is that the AZ cables/interconnects are all-around excellent performers and an outstanding value especially when buying used. Read some reviews for more perspectives, and hope this helps.
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Hello soix. I’m looking into the acoustic zens. Just wondering why you suggested them. And if you don’t mind - what do you think about about Cardas Persecs? They were recommended to me. Thanks
@bzawa You need to tag someone by putting the @ in front, and selecting them from the drop down, to ensure they get it, otherwise they would only know you asked the question if they happen to view the thead, like this:
@soix
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Thanks audioman58 for your suggestions. You are the third person who did not look favorably on the Panamax. I do plan on replacing it.
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Hello soix. I'm looking into the acoustic zens. Just wondering why you suggested them. And if you don't mind - what do you think about about Cardas Persecs? They were recommended to me. Thanks
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Panamax horrible they restrict current many have mov’s
depending on your budget power cables 1000 % make your system better idf decent , Audio Quest depending on budget the Niagra 1200
a very good Bank for the Buck ,Perrotta Consulting audio
I get much there great service and pricing
i did a Big upgrade brings the system up a solid 10% increase across the board
the Niagra 3000 is pretty good the 5000 much better still I should have but the bullit and bought it now I have to trade it in to get it I like the Tornado cables very much I use theI AQ source for preamp and streamer dac and thunder for the 3000 line conditioner and power amp I will upgrade them also , you can hear the resolution improvements ,breakin too takes over 100 hours , in Audio it never stops
for myself never enough $$ monies.,Give me another $60k then maybe just maybe i might be satisfied !!
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I appreciate the advice to try taking a DIY approach to power cables. The task only requires stripping three wires, inserting them into the connectors and screwing down the wires. You can decide whether you want any fancy jacketing. The sense of control in the design lets you get maximum value for your investment and get better quality wire and components. It's sweat equity.
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@bzawa take a look at this link
It talks about what elements of cable design can improve performance.
Cable are the heart of my system and improves every aspect of audio system performance.
I've applied cables to systems ranging in price from $300 to $70k and in all cases significant improvements were achieved.
The link also identifies a couple of brands that use advanced design techniques and materials
Good luck with your quest, steve
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- What cables/interconnects were you using before? I’d wait til you have at least 150 hours of playing time on the Kimbers before making any firm conclusions, but it sounds like they could be a mismatch for your system.
I had an old set of Monster Powerline 2 for speakers. Between CD player and amp was a Cardas Quadlink. (I thought the silver streak would have sounded much better than the Cardas, but it wasn't to my ears) Between Turntable and amp are the ones that came with the Pro-Ject. I would be interested in the used cables you mentioned. Thanks
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I've had the Kimber 8ts and Silver Streak about a month and things are sounding too bright.
What cables/interconnects were you using before? I’d wait til you have at least 150 hours of playing time on the Kimbers before making any firm conclusions, but it sounds like they could be a mismatch for your system. Your speakers are known to lean toward the bright side so cable matching becomes even more important, and if it’s still too bright after 150 hours it’s time to move on to something else. I have recommendations for some very good used cables you could try that’d likely make a big improvement both in brightness and imaging/soundstage for not much $$$ if you’re interested and the Kimbers don’t work out.
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Once again the cable question. Do cables make a difference yes. Just did a shootout with power cables on an integrated and CD/SACD player. One cable was $450 and the other $6,000. We switched them back and forth. The result was we preferred the expensive one on the CD/SACD player the less expensive one on the integrated. Price is not an indicator of synergy with a system so you need to experiment. If you can actually get loaner cables to test, that's the best you do.
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Hello
All my power cords are stock.
The DIY looks very interesting. Is there any particular supplier that anyone would recommend.
I did unplug the amp from the Panamax. Unfortunately it has to be on the same as the Panamax. Things didn't seem to sound much different. Oh, and God help me, I've had the Kimber 8ts and Silver Streak about a month and things are sounding too bright.
Thanks for all the advice!
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@wofford
Salt is to cables, as pepper is to Uranus.
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I vote for DIY PC, easy, fun and cheap or very moderate cost and I believe they can make a difference but if not still a fun project. I also believe once past a certain point it is not likely to make much of a difference, just cost a lot more and might make a change that fits ones taste more but not really an improvement unless you like and difference in how they sound, if they do so.
I feel the same for all cables and been making my own for a very long time.
If not into DIY there are great low to moderate cost cables as mentioned here already.
Rick
Retired USN tech and very high end sound quality car audio competitor that made all my own cables and used welding cable for the power ones as well as turned down full sponsorships for what I considered snake oil cables.
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To Start with, you have some great equipment! The first thing I’d try before I bought anything new, is to plug your amp into a different wall socket (not the same circuit as the Panamax MR4300) and listen to your favorite tunes. After a few days, do you think you hear a difference? You may or may not.
A couple of questions. Are you using the factory power cords to the amplifier and the Panamax?
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To Start with, you have some great equipment! The first thing I’d try before I bought anything new, is to plug your amp into a different wall socket (not the same circuit as the Panamax MR4300) and listen to your favorite tunes. After a few days, do you think you hear a difference? You may or may not.
A couple of questions. Are you using the factory power cords to the amplifier and the Panamax?
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OP, many recommended plugging your amp directly into the wall to not starve the amps draw when using a shared conditioner. Two things:
1. Most are high power amps, tubes and/or mono blocks.
2. Most have installed whole house surge protection, eliminating the need for your conditioner’s surge protection.
I have a lower powered amp (Moon 330A), no whole house surge protection & never play my system loud (sounds great at lower volumes). I have my amp plugged into my 2400 & feel I am loosing nothing while adding protection. YMMV
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@richardbrand +1 on "an expensive power amplifier is likely to benefit least from power conditioning”
in analog design requirements, more noise / ripple / drops in the AC power requires more circuitry, higher cost components, etc., to isolate “non ideal” AC power issues from sound..
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@bzawa
I don't understand not using a power conditioner with an amp. I would have guessed that conditioned power would be good for it. Do amps not need conditioning?
All mains-driven amplifiers convert incoming Alternating Current (AC) to Direct Current (DC) to power their internal power supply rails, which operate at a different voltage. The normal arrangement is a hefty voltage transformer followed by a bridge rectifier, with the output smoothed by huge capacitors. In general, the more expensive the amplifier, the beefier these components are and the less the impact of AC variations on the DC rail voltage.
Out of all your electronic components, an expensive power amplifier is likely to benefit least from power conditioning, especially if the power conditioner is wimpy, in my opinion! I also think most electrical noise is generated by your own components ...
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@wofford
I will leave you with this, sea salt tastes different than mineral salt, and pink salt tastes different still! They are all salt!
They are all mainly salt. None is 100% pure sodium chloride which is what we mainly think of as salt. The chemical differences account for the difference in taste, and the difference in colour. Sea water today has about 1 part magnesium for every 10 parts sodium, and even more sulphate per chloride ion.
Mineral (rock) salt and pink (Himalayan) salt were deposited when the sea chemistry was a bit different. Himalayan salt mainly comes from Pakistan quite a long way from the mountains.
You can taste a difference which is reflected in measurable difference in composition and even crystal size! The hysteria from health gurus around the merits of various salts does have a familiar ring to me ...
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Wow, I am grateful for all the responses. A big thank you to all! I don't understand not using a power conditioner with an amp. I would have guessed that conditioned power would be good for it. Do amps not need conditioning? Thanks
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The first thing that I would replace are the stock power cables for the SVS subwoofers. Audioquest, Shunyata and Audience have some affordable choices that make a big difference over the stock cord. Make sure any amplifiers are plugged directly into the wall outlets because any power conditioner will limit current to them. It's okay to plug source components into the conditioner.
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You mentioned Pine Tree Audio - what do you think of their Iso-Power 15A Power Filter?
Sorry, forgot to answer this. I’d wait until you can buy a better conditioner like the Core Power I linked above that will likely make a more significant difference. Another option, and what I did, was to wait til a used Audience AR1p conditioner becomes available that you should be able to get for about $200 and then plug this power strip that’s very highly regarded into it that will give you nine outlets. So for around $335 you’ll have a very good conditioner on the cheap for all your components.
https://us.rs-online.com/view/search?keyword=Wiremold%20L10320
But I would still give Pine Tree Audio a call because they’re apparently very helpful if you tell them what you’re looking for, and you may be able to try some PCs on the cheap just to get started replacing those awful stock cords and see if they make a meaningful difference.
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@erik_squires
Sorry, lets talk cables. Honestly always like to encourage first timers to consider making their own using high quality shielded cables from Parts Connexion.
I discovered that making PCs was pretty easy and enjoyable. I dont have the ears or the expertise to say whether they make a difference in SQ or not, but the sense of fulfillment is undeniable.
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A good thing about power cords is that they seem to hold value very well ... buy a used cord from a manufacturer that doesn't change models often... my first was a SR Master Coupler .. sold it 8 years later for same price I paid used...also easy to borrow and try...trust yourself, as I'm sure you would prefer to not spend money on a useless item...unfortunately you might find you prefer to sound of an expensive one !!!
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In high end audio, one can always find a reason to upgrade, until you upgrade yourself to the moon, LOL!!! Question is, do you feel you need to upgrade? And not if others feel you need to upgrade. Happy listening.
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A 16 pound power supply in a DAC. I love over engineering of electrical devices.
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You are like me when it comes to power cables. I can't say for certain if they are worth the upgrade or price but I contemplate trying cables more often these days. Living in Florida I do use a Surge protector. I bought a somewhat expensive Panamax myself a few years ago. It was like a $800 unit I got for under half price for being an open box & the original owner scratched the poop out of the top of it. At some point a buddy of mine brought his outlet noise reading gizmo over. Half the outlets on the Panamax were good..the other half was nosier than coming straight out of the wall. I bought a cheap Furman (under $100). No extra noise added.
For power cables I've made my own from Gotham power cables. Shielded & extremely flexible. Gotham 85025 to be exact. They have a heavier cable that is well liked in the 85055 but it's hard to find these days. Their newest hi-end series 86215 is supposed to be their best. All I can say about all of Gotham cables is that they are legit quality good. I don't know if they are adding or degrading to the sound.
I purchased 2nd hand a very heavy high percentage Silver material 10 gauge power cable for a power amp just a few years ago. My subjective perception was everything sounded brighter. I don't know if thats because the Silver = Bright bias was in my head but that is legitimately what I perceived over a couple months. I eventually put that cable on a subwoofer..doesn't sound bright there lol.
Like so many others have said..you really gotta try it. Building your own from quality power cables & connectors is Always a good option. I think the main thing is to just have quality copper cables & good connectors..shielded or not shielded. I'm good with copper wire. I really like these shielded Gotham cables. Pine Tree audio is a US cable maker that makes quality cables for normal prices. Ice Audio was a site I recently came across that seemed to have inexpensive (in comparison) cables that looked legit. But obviously there are hundreds to thousands of cable makers out there. DIY is always an option too...places like Parts Connexion or VH-Audio to name a couple.
If you end up trying something let us know your experience. I've always wanted to try the Shunyata NR cables..the ones actually listed as Noise Reduction.
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If you’re primarily source is vinyl - did apro do your TT set up? This might be the best value if not.
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One more thing, IMHO isolated banks for your analog & digital components is critical, unless you run two dedicated power lines & 2 separate power conditioners.
When installing my 2400, I accidentally plugged my turntable into the bank I was using for digital, and a digital component into the analog side. It sounded terrible, so I can personally attest to the recommendation to separate analog & digital.
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Based upon the recommendations from @erik_squires (very knowledgeable), I recently purchased a Furman P-2400 AR (the 20A version of his above recommendation) and the Furman PSD 8D, with very good results.
The 2400 provides voltage regulation, conditioning, surge protection & isolated banks for analog & digital (6 each). I use it for my main components & is full.
The 8D does everything except voltage regulation, with 4 each isolated banks. I use it for my secondary components (6 of 8 outlets).
I purchased both for less than $1,000 ($3,800 retail). Highly recommended.
On upgraded PC’s, never A/B’d, but just bought them… Audioquest NRG Z3 for amp, Y3 for remaining components. Reasonably priced & look good. Don’t know if they improved SQ, but did once buy a Pangea PC that actually degraded sound, so reasonable to assume one would see improvement with the right PC’s.
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You could borrow AC cables from the Cable Company and try different brands that way. The rental fee is 10% of the value of the cables, and you can apply that to the cost of any cables you buy from them. They discount some of their cables. I have been very pleased with their customer service, and other Audiogoners have also praised their customer service.
I have been pleased with Cardas AC cables on my preamp and amps.
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Puritan Labs PS 106 is reasonably priced power conditioner/surge protector, $1300. Yes, I run one on a smaller system. Patrick Cullen power cords are price/performance terrific. Yes, I run those in the same smaller system.
Balance need be struck considering your system. Nothing outrageous in price. Enjoy the ride and results. Cheers
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Maybe my components aren't audiophile enough to justify purchasing upgraded power cords.
You won't know until you try it. Do you buy from dealers, or used?
If you have a relationship with a good dealer see if you can borrow a good demo ($1000+) high current capable power cord from them, put it on your amp, plug it directly into the wall and see what difference there is.
If you hear a difference you will have to decide whether that is worth the asking price, and that will answer your question "Do I need upgraded power cables".
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People knowledgeable about electricity will tell you a power cable is a power cable and won't make any difference. People that are members of the church of audiophilia will tell you the differences "aren't subtle" (a favourite).
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There are times though (especially in dense musical passages) that the sound is stage is a blur - as if of all the instruments are coming from the same place.
A good power conditioner can sometimes help individual images pop by reducing noise. Here’s an EQUI=CORE 1000 if still available you could probably get for $600 I’d think.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650092255-core-power-tech-equicore-1000/
Also, how are your speakers positioned relative to the back and side walls, how far apart, how much toe in? Speaker positioning can also be a big factor in improving imaging and soundstage.
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If you are asking the question, the answer is no.
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Audioquest’s thunder cable improved my sound. Use it on the integrated. Seems background more quiet, better dynamics. Idk, Maybe I’m imagining it. I also swear by cableworld’s Electra 7 on a preamp. Using audioquest’s Niagara 1200 pwr cond and Edison receptacle. A AQ z3 PC from Pwr cond to Edison, 20 amp dedicated. Do what you want, have fun.
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So great questions! I will start by saying “everything makes a difference or nothing makes a difference.”
The question for you is, it worth the money in the end? Again, already stated above, you will have to decide and make sure you have a return option.
So for me in my system the upgrade from the very same Panamax to a Audioquest Niagra 1200 was not subtle! you are correct the Panamax is basically surge protection, no noise filtering or suppression. After that I proceeded to change out the power cable to the Niagra, then to the amp. The next would be your digital power and or pre amp. A great way to do this is using the lending library at The Cable Company! Call Steve, tell him what you have and pay to loan them out for two weeks. If you can’t tell any difference, return them and you had a nice forced listening session, if you did hear a difference you buy new or demo and apply your loan fee toward the purchase. A win win for very little money.
I will leave you with this, sea salt tastes different than mineral salt, and pink salt tastes different still! They are all salt!
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