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Direct Drive
I am firmly in the digital camp, but I’ve dabbled in vinyl. Back in the day I was fascinated by Technics Direct Drive tt, but couldn’t afford them. I was stuck with my entry level Gerrard. I have been sans turntable for about 5 years now but the new gear bug is biting. I am interested in the Technics 1500 which comes with an Ortofon Red and included pre amp. I have owned Rega P5 which I hated for its speed instability and a Clearaudio Concept which was boring as hell.
Direct Drive was an anathema to audiophiles in the nineties but every time I heard one it knocked my socks off. What do the analogers here think of Direct Drive? I listen to Classical Music exclusively
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So I just bought the 1500 from Music Direct. I live in Chicago so I will pick it up probably next weekend, as I will take advantage of proximity to avoid the potential ravages of the shipping company and the rapacious Porch Pirates. This will give me a chance to acquire a few more lps as well. I upgraded the cartridge to Ortofon 2M Blue on the basis of suggestions here. The phono preamp will probably be superfluous but I haven’t used my two preamps for several years and although they seem to fire up when plugged in, I just prefer the security of knowing that I can actually play a record the day I set it up and don’t have delayed gratification issues. This has really been educational. I learned a lot and there are some interesting and knowledgeable posters here that I don’t tend to see in the other Forums on Agon that I frequent. I will post back in a few weeks with impressions.
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Of course anyone who knows nows there are good & bad examples of just about every turntable design in just about all price ranges. This goes for tonearms too but maybe not so much for cartridges. Similar to loudspeakers (not coincidentally), there are a few really good "buys' here & there at lower prices but generally, good, full range sound & realistic volume levels (for speakers) is going to cost you. I used Technics turntables eons ago when I worked in the pro sound industry, sounded pretty good, well made, pretty much set & forget. For my own systems , I've always had good belt drive units from Thorens, VPI, SOTA (w/ a Souther Linear Arm - a bear to set up but did sound good) to my current Basis 2500 w/ their Vector 4 arm. I've had it for 20 years & it sounds as good today as it did new which is VERY good w/only one belt change & 2 new good moving coil cartridges. I agree w/ others here than a good phono amp is required to get the most out of your turntable. |
@mahler123, I've owned a number of classic cars, so I get what you are saying. A few further comments... The new Technics designs are much better than the old "disco" 1200. As you already have a phono stage/s, I think its worth going for the SL1210GR. Regarding the digital comparison, I suspect you will like it's pitch stability and bass control compared to comparably priced belt driven designs. The turntable is superb in terms of its fit and finish and ergonomically, it's delightful to use. I previously owned a 1200G which replaced an SME 20. The SME was more neutral tonally but the Technics was more interesting to listen to. It has since been replaced by a Clearaudio - but it's an Innovation with professional PSU and Universal arm. That combination is in a different league to the Concept - as it should be at the price - and combines the best qualities of the SME and the Technics. |
You say, "AnalogMagik software does measure instantaneous speed. I think Fremer may use it, or possibly have some other software by which he determines the variability and stability of speed control of the turntables that he evaluates." I was speaking of fundamental physical constraints, not marketing claims. Speed is defined as displacement / time. We’ve known since Planck that the world is quantized, not infinitely smooth. Hence instantaneous speed is a theoretical concept which cannot be physically realized. It remains only to specify how close a given measurement is to the ideal. Visible light brings constraints in terms of wavelength. Markings to denote the boundaries of the average are required - how finely are they drawn? What is the sampling rate? Each of these introduces quantization AND each of these introduces its own source of error. That’s all. My point is simply, "How coarse are those averages, and even if they were analyzed completely, what can those averages tell us?" I suspect that our ears/brains, the result of a billion years of evolution (with survival at stake), tell us more. |
Thorens are wonderful machines. I had a TD160 for about a decade (lost it in a burglary). A beautiful machine. I particularly liked the use of opposing magnets to handle anti-skate. Ingenious. But well-preserved ones are expensive now. I’d hoped to find an affordable one when I came across the Denon. |
I agree with everything that you say. I prefer digital, and have many posts on the site detailing why, but I have deliberately refrained from recycling these comments here in the analog section asI have no wish to reignite that topic, although to some extent it is inevitable. I do think that it’s possible—perhaps not probable- that a DD may eliminate a few of the issues that I have had with other tables, notably speed stability and bloated, diffuse bass. I am looking at older DD tables, but some of the prices they command are getting close to the price of a new Technics. I am concerned about motor noise and the reviews of the newer Technics seem to indicate that the newer tables have vanquished that issue. I also would like to get some use out of a couple of decent phono preamps that are sitting in my house. I tried selling them a few years ago but there wasn’t much demand, and one buyer tried to Scam me. The whole experience was so unpleasant that it put me off selling gear for the present (to be fair, when I sold the Clearaudio I made enough to buy my Melco and CA streamers, but the demand for pre amps doesn’t seem to be the same as the demand for turn tables). And finally, I just freaking want one. I really wanted to buy a Technics back in the day, couldn’t do it, then when I reacquired an interest in vinyl they had disappeared. When they were resurrected I wasn’t interested and wouldn’t have shelled out $18K anyway. Now they are priced more realistically and I am getting the new gear bug. Any move I make in digital at this price point will at best be a lateral, at worse be a downward move. It’s like owning a classic car that you might just take for a spin once a month. Perhaps you have many other vehicles that can transport you more efficiently and more economically . You just want the classic car for myriad other reasons that have nothing to do with getting from point A to point B. |
"The only thing that can possibly make noise in a DD is the spindle bearing. But guess what?? ALL belt drives and idler drives have a nearly identical spindle bearing as a DD. In reality, DD tables are 10-20 dB quieter than most all belt and idler drives. Just a fact!" So, 1) The only thing that can possibly make noise in a DD is the spindle bearing. 2) ALL belt drives and idler drives have a nearly identical spindle bearing as a DD. 3) DD tables are 10-20 dB quieter than most all belt and idler drive. Just a fact? Those statements make 2 large assumptions, then pirouette into a non-sequitur claiming DD turnables generate one tenth to one hundredth as much noise. Fascinating. |
@Mahler123 - time zone differences accounting for late reply. I'm not saying that the Technics is entry level. But given that you have had two pretty good turntables that didn't float your boat, I'm not sure a Technics 1500 will either and it's a very expensive way of accessing a handful of classical records not available on digital. The reality is that digital hardware and software has improved very significantly in the last ten years, whereas analogue technology has plateaued to the extent that any improvements being made are largely at the bleeding edge of technology and price.
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I may have misunderstood you, but you mentioned that "there is no such thing as instantaneous speed measurement in the real world": AnalogMagik software does measure instantaneous speed. I think Fremer may use it, or possibly have some other software by which he determines the variability and stability of speed control of the turntables that he evaluates. |
@goofyfoot I really do not have an opinion on the Thorens Origin motor upgrade. I have the original German 16-pole synchronous motor albeit it gas been cleaned and tweaked a bit, polished bearing....it is dead silent and over 40 years old. If it isn't broke don't fix it. Listening to it now and I am still amazed how these 40 year old turntables can give the modern stuff a run for their money. |
@juanmanuelfangioii Do you believe that a motor upgrade, like those from Origin Live, would make noticeable improvement with a Thorens TD 145? It does seem that a belt driven table lends itself to more upgrades and refinements than a direct drive table but that may be due to my lack of knowledge. |
Terry, I am well aware of the assumptions we make when we speak of turntable speed and its accuracy or lack of accuracy. But if you categorically prefer BD turntables, with or especially without a dedicated motor controller, it’s not because BD turntables are more speed constant than a well designed and constructed DD turntable, in my opinion. And I assume your experience is limited to a few examples of each type, as is mine. |
@billwojo it is wow and flutter. Here are the specs for the Technics 1210G DD TT Rumble is motor noise. Type: Direct Drive Manual Turntable Now here are the spec's for a 1975 Thorens TD145 Specifications Drive system: 16-pole synchronous motor with belt drive Record speeds: 33⅓ and 45 rpm Turntable platter: 12 -inch non-magnetic zinc alloy Rumble : -48 dB (unweighted), -69dB (weighted) Wow and flutter: 0.06% Looking at these spec's you will not hear either. Like I said it is a silly argument. Also someone made a comment about changing belt, how hard is it? Not hard at all. Speed on my 47 year old turntable is dead nuts on. |
@lewm Sorry to be obscure, but some were questioning @dover about the theoretical basis, so I thought there was an interest. Not saying that it was worse than previous Technics DD. Just saying that there is no such thing as an instantaneous speed measurement in the real world. It’s all averages, or more precisely, means. And means don’t tell the whole story. That’s the take-away. What is measured isn’t the totality of what’s there. IMO belt drives sounds far better, but that’s just personal opinion. The theory on how that could be so, given the measurements, is upstream. |
@dover , you always make this claim about DD tables. Please provide your documentation to back up these claims. You do know that "jitter" is something that happens at a fairly high rate. I'm sure a steady test tone would reveal this pretty easy, and be easy to document with numbers. Rather funny that I haven't seen these reports.
BillWojo |
I've owned AR, Thorens, Lenco, Gerrard, Philips, Dual and ProJect Debut Carbon turntables, most of them manual (that old classic AR is just a platter, tonearm and on-off switch). The ProJect was the last to be replaced—by a Denon DP-37F (so, a lower-end Denon direct drive). The Denon, with an Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge, blows all the others away in every relevant category: speed constancy, lack of wow or flutter, lack of rumble, transparency of sound...and, of course, convenience of use. It performs its various automatic functions like a ballet dancer, and the very easy to use cue button is extremely precise in where it picks the arm up and puts it down. The only reservations I have about this table are theoretical. The arm's parameters are mostly controlled by a chip; when you turn the power off, the arm floats. So, both tracking force and anti-skate are somehow provided by computer. But I've owned the table for three years now, and had no problems at all with it. And the tracking force settings are accurate, as confirmed by a scale. So are the anti-skate settings. The whole rig (minus the 2M Blue, which I bought new) cost me about $200. It sounds as good as Red Book CDs (I've got several recordings on vinyl and CD of the same thing—e.g., the famous Kleiber performances of Beethoven's Fifth and Seventh), but SACDs (again, of the same recordings) sound marginally better. |
I don't doubt that the average speed of a modern turntable is right on the money. But, according to accepted statistical theory, there is more to a phenomenon than just the mean. Consider the platter speed to be a random variable whose distribution of values is some distribution D. Since a normal or Gaussian distribution is completely determined by two parameters, mean and standard deviation, if D ~ N(m,s) the situation is more complex than the mean. In general, the utility of mean as a unique determinant of a quantity is obvious when you consider wealth, like B Gates and one of us, etc. etc. And a normal distribution is very well behaved at two parameters. Most distributions are described by more. These are the higher level moments, standard deviation (actually its square, the Variance; second), skewness (third), kurtosis (fourth), and the rest of the infinity of central moments have no common name. It is a theorem that any distribution can be uniquely described by its moments. What this is all getting to, is that the higher order moments of the speed distribution are all noise, noise which is not much considered and not much measured. Our ears measure it though - it comes through as an almost sibilant brightness, a nasty sound. The best DD don't have much of this, but the big new Technics with its associated system seemed to produce way too much of that for me, when I heard a factory audition. And what can we measure? Mean speed over a window of some duration. To measure these higher order moments requires very many, very short window measures of mean speed, and applying the correct estimation algorithms. Shorter is better, and 14 bit resolution should be the absolute minimum. The fact that 'speed stability' is reported while standard deviation, skewness, and kurtosis is not, is revealing. It seems to be a matter of the engineering not keeping pace with either theory or perception, IMO. What do you think? @pedroeb Make that the Premotec 9904 111 31813 (as it was then designated), then available from Element 14, IIRC. |
I have to take issue with Bliss, who wrote, "There are some incredible direct drives, but their notoriety was largely due to motor noise and vibration." I don't mean to pick on Bliss, but his statement is often the mantra for those who don't care for DD turntables. It's just plain wrong. There is no mechanical noise or vibration added by virtue of the DD technology. In DD turntables, the platter either is the rotor or is firmly attached to the rotor of the drive motor. The drive force is electromagnetic between the rotor and the stator. Nothing touches the spindle or the bearing or the platter that does not also touch the spindle/bearing/platter of any other type of turntable. What CAN be an issue with DD turntables is EMI or electrical noise generated due to radiation from the motor. In 99% of decent DD turntables, EMI is shielded from the cartridge by the platter itself, which is usually made of stainless steel or aluminum or some alloy of copper. In fact, of course, both BD and idler type turntables have a greater potential to transmit mechanical noise from the motor to the bearing or platter, because both require a mechanical interface between the platter and the driver. Dover, With respect I must also disagree with your persisting claim that the servo systems of "vintage" DD turntables, designed usually in the late 70s or early 80s are so primitive as to cause audible`distortions due to speed corrections mandated by those circuits. First, most modern BD turntables wouldn't be caught dead without a motor controller of some sort, with or without feedback, to maintain constant speed. And I for one have consistently heard the benefit of those devices if designed well, on the performance of one or another BD turntable. Second, a skilled engineer, JP Jones, has graphed the speed stability of a brand new Technics SP10R, which I think we can agree would incorporate the most modern devices and moreover uses a coreless motor, vs a fully tweaked SP10 Mk3. JP found no detectable difference in the speed constancy of these two turntables when he monitored them over time in a way that would reveal momentary peaks and troughs in speed, if such were present in the Mk3. I am not saying anything is perfect, and I certainly have heard BD and idler turntables that I much admire, but if you categorically dislike DD turntables, find other reasons. Most likely, it's EMI, in which case that reflects poor design or construction of the platter. |
How does it sound? Well, I can HEAR the noise from the plastic sleeve bearings on that 1/500 HP motor! Only faintly audible as a slight grainy brightness, but audible nevertheless. Paired with my DIY air bearing tonearm and higher end Koetsu (diamond), it’s a pretty stunning combination. Makes my Nottingham Analogue Mentor upgraded to Dais standard (Fletcher again!) sound highly coloured and even a bit nasty by comparison. And the stock Mentor was a DD killer, IMO. Oh - and use a short belt. |
My turntable is built around a New Way thrust bearing, an air bearing in all three dimensions. This right away puts you in rarified (6 figure) company. Next is inspiration from the late Tom Fletcher, who reasoned that a tiny motor couldn’t do much to influence a large rotating mass. I use a Premotec 1.8W precision synchronous motor, which does not catch up using feedback, but instead produces a constant rotational speed. Of course, with this setup, you have to bring the platter up to speed by hand, which is a bit quirky, but not at all inconvenient. Motor resides on its own massive board made of Panzerholz, a wonderfully dead and dense and strong plywood from Germany, which is isolated from the main chassis and the platter. Motor controller can be as simple as a capacitor or two, or you can build one with (electric) quadrature, which is better. Maybe better left as a project to get around to someday. Platter is cast iron base covered with a 1" graphite top, both located precisely on an air bearing spindle. (Inspiration Tom Fletcher again) While each rings a little when separated, the assembly is dead as a tomb. If I were doing it again, I would bite the bullet and get New Way to machine the spindle. Suspension is something which I did not need, so I did not build, because my listening room has a concrete floor built on bedrock, and miles from a highway. Air supply depends on your situation. If you use an oil-free compressor you don’t need to do much in the way of filtration, but if you need to use oil (quieter, cheaper) you need to go with heroical air filtration to protect that $1K thrust bearing. There you have the basics. Let us know how you get along! Good luck! PS: There is a thread on DIY Audio about this. Very long, very detailed.
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The Technics 1500's phono stage and Ortofon cartridge are really just "get you started" inclusions. Compared to the Clearaudio concept, the Technics will sound like it has more "get up and go" but it is a bit ragged tonally in the midrange and treble - not really what you want for Classical music, particularly. Unless OP has a large stock of vinyl albums, it's questionable as to whether getting an entry level (ish) turntable makes sense. |
+1 on the 1200G - not certain about the other models but I hear they have nearly the same motor. Set aside funds for a phono pre-amp and a cartridge. The 2M is muffled like others have said and should be avoided. A 1000 or 100 with a Denon 103 would be a good match, but a good SUT would cost you as much if not more than the rest of the rig. I’ve heard good things about the Nagaoka MP 500 for a MM cart, but I have no real world experience. I listen to a like of big band which I expect requires the same characteristics as classical, and a fast cart is a must. If there is a weakness with the technics it’s the arm. I’ve compared a belt drive with a Groovemaster arm and the Technics with a stock arm, both running a Miyajima Zero on 78rpm’s, and the Technics still beats the BD, despite the arm. |
@pedroeb....Well, I'm a fan mostly due the logic of 'method in +/- = method out' v. the function of an arc. Cart selection will vary per taste, as usual. Obviously, you'd be back to the best table you can strive for.... Actually I went to the Clearaudio site, products tonearms scroll down and they're all there....although there's more of them about... I've been curious about diy'g a tang, as that's about as well. If you've the chance to hear one regardless of the cart....won't hurt, 'cept the price. *L*
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Yes, the Ortofon red is quite good as a first cartridge. I tried it and was pleasantly surprised. I’ve since moved on to MC carts and am loving the detail they provide. Hard to go wrong with DD turntables. I had a Technics SL1200mk2 for 20 trouble free years and finally moved up to a 1200G. Technics makes outstanding TTs. Can’t go wrong. They have such a strong grip on the sound. The new technics tonearms run better gimbal bearings than the older mk2 standard...you can feel the difference, which is kind of incredible if you know that handling the old tonearm felt like handling ’air’. Lot’s of other great designs out there. But it’s really easy setup-wise having a Technics. Good luck!
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I’m a big fan of the Technics Direct Drive tables. Still have one that I purchased new in 1978 for $150 and while I didn’t use it much for many years I recently set it up in my office system and it sounds great and is quiet and keeps perfect speed. You have a nice system and it would be worth the extra $500 to jump up to the 1200GR. I would do the same myself if my old table would ever break down but that is probably unlikely. |
I don’t have anything against Technics or DD. Both, the brand and technology is great and have their pluses, but I like the BD better. According to Mechanic rules (mechanic as part of physics) it is much harder to maintain balance and isolation of shaft with motor attached to it towards surface than shaft separated from the motor. |
I assume on Deutch Gramophone - one of my favourite performances of the Beethoven Sonatas, other than Horowitz. Beautifully balanced top and bottom hand and the piano is nicely miked not too close. The playing is wonderful. Piano lays bare any pitch instability - rubber belt drives are very susceptible. Some are worse than others. My 2 TT's use silk thread drive and idler drive - the thread drive being the most pitch stable. If you must have direct drive why not push the boat out to a new Technics 1200. A classic that will be reliable and serviceable for years. Having said that there have been wobbly platter issues with the new generation, so beware,
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My system: Amplification—Cary SLP-3 Pre, Parasound JC Curl Amp DAC- Bryston DAC-3 Oppo 105 Melco N 100, Cambridge CXN 60 NAS/Streamers B&W 803 D speakers, REL Sub, Mini DSP R/P All Cabling Nordstrom Valhalla
My Clearaudio Concept had a Concept MC Cartridge and the standard Satisfy Arm. Phono pre amps by Musical Surroundings (battery) and PS Audio. The former was chosen when I couldn’t extinguish a hum in the latter. THE Clearaudio sounded neat,tidy, orderly with bloated bass, and generally dull. It was also one heck of a dust magnet. The Rega moved me more but the pitch instability drove me nuts. I had Wilhelm Kempff playing Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata where the famous triplets in the First Movement were distorted to point that I had thought someone slipped acid in my coffee. I love my digital set up. However I always lusted after a Technics Direct Drive.I won’t get the DJ table but I might get 1500 . I am put off getting a used one due to potential motor noise. This is kind of a bucket list thing. Retirement looms and then I won’t be able to spend my shekels on whims like this without feeling overly guilty. |
Not really. Direct drive turntables use error correction, which includes jitter, they do not maintain perfect speed. One could argue that digital format development has vastly outpaced the antediluvian error correction systems used in old direct drive turntables, and for this reason you might well be better off with a digital source. |
I haven't heard it yet but Stereophile raved about the Pioneer PLX-1000. Add an Ortofon 2m Blue (the Red has terrible inner groove distortion) and you've got change from $1000. Although you'll need a phono stage as well. The Yaqin MS-12b (~$300) can sound really good with a bit of tube rolling. So yeah, about $1500 all up. This is probably as cheap as you can go and still get a half-decent result. Incidentally I sometimes record my vinyl using Audacity and play it back digitally using Audirvana Origin to Dac to Power Amp. Sounds phenomenal |
Yes, tangential tonearms sound better. But they are a higher end thing, and you probably won't hear the benefits until you're spending a fair bit. How handy are you? It's not hard to make a DIY belt drive table that will be far better than anything you can buy for the same price. I had a pretty hefty budget for a TT and used the money to DIY - and the result is quite phenomenal. And the journey was a treat not to be missed. DIY forever! |
Do tangential playback arms sound any better? |
You can also check out the Technics SL-100C, brand new in the US market, save a couple hundred bucks. No phono stage, but don't really want a built-in one anyway. Cheap cartridge but the stylus is upgradeable to something decent. It intrigues me and looks like good value, but I'm satisfied with my belt drive tables. |
@billwojo ...and the master is cut with a tangential arm, but that will only trigger another fusillsade from the trenches that surround you... ;) |
I’ve got idler drives, belt drives, and DD tables. Motor noise from DD??? Must be a cheap Fisher or BSR. The only thing that can possibly make noise in a DD is the spindle bearing. But guess what?? ALL belt drives and idler drives have a nearly identical spindle bearing as a DD. In reality, DD tables are 10-20 dB quieter than most all belt and idler drives. Just a fact! But I do enjoy a belt drive or idler drive for a change of pace. I do stream music and have CDs and SACDs. But nothing brings me more satisfaction than playing records. A few of the DDs are the Denon DP52F and 45F, Technics SL1350, JVC QL Y5F, Hitachi HT-460 and -463, and some Linear Trackers; Idler Drive Garrard Z100, Model 50, Lab 80; Belt Drive Garrard GT55, NIVICO 5240B, Hitachi SP-10. Linear trackers are both belt and DD.
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