Digital is far better than vinyl

@curtdr the post was satire. 

@arafig

While re-reading the OP post, I tend to think it may be satire but will answer as if it is not.

This topic will always be controversial but I agree with others that this is not a fair apples to apples comparison. I also agree to get very good analog playback from a TT it will cost more than the equivalent digital system, hence it is not the best choice for the majority of music fans.

Vinyl and a decent TT rig is definitely a subset of the audiophile community and cost is only one factor in the decision to go down this road. If one is going to be frugal, there are options, but the effort may not be worth the result.

As far as your comparison, you have around $5k in the DAC and whatever receiver you have along with what is probably an inexpensive MM cartridge. To be a fair comparison I would look to spend the same amount of money on a TT setup from the same manufacture that includes the TT, tonearm, and cartridge.

Offerings from Rega, Clearaudio, and Linn can be found in this price range. Will these be better? Perhaps, but the Denafrips Terminator 2 is a discrete R2R design which is very cool - so it could still be better overall and more convenient.

Now, as much as I like my Linn LP12, I find I use my streamer more often. What I like about vinyl on the LP12 is albums do sound very good but are limited by the physical limitations on vinyl itself. Surface noise, pops and ticks can really detract from whatt otherwise sounds great. Ironically, my LP12 also uses the Urika-II preamp which converts to 24/196 digital inside the plinth and stays that way to the Linn Selekt DSM converts it back to analog. This works very well and has advantages. Everyone that has heard it agrees it sounds wonderful but it took a great deal of effort to get there.

At the end of the day, if one is not will to put at least a modest amount of cash into a TT rig, and spend time to get it set up correctly, they are better off with less expensive and decent streamer/DAC setup with a good set of speakers.They will be happier campers.

It really doesn’t matter. Use the format that works best for you. Both will give you very high fidelity playback.

That said:

It is nearly the year 2023. And the fact that vinyl is still part of the playback debate is amazing. It has survived all challengers to date.

But vinyl requires more effort from the listener. You must know how to set up a turntable and properly match and align a cartridge...at the very least.

@arafiq ​​​​​​I totally support your enthusiasm and love of quality digital music (especially high res stuff).

I too love my Zenith3 with Phoenix and Mola Mola Tambaqui combo (audio nirvana to my ears), and I've kinda fallen away from my vinyl stockpile as of lately.

But I do feel my Technics SU-R1000 and its vinyl DSP wizardry does one hell of a job, best part is I can always grab a better MC cartridge and then up my whole vinyl chain and then DSP that too.

It sound nearly as good? IDK?

Sound of vinyl is better than Cd or streaming : the sound is more “feelable “, emotional and more involved. The Cd-player closest to vinyl is the Audiomeca Mephisto IIx. It’s a different way of listening. I prefer vinyl !!!

Well, the answer is really subjective and depends on a endless amount of variations. BUT...Yes, Digital is WAY BETTER than vinyl.

I think the issue is that some people have an aversion to the digital sound. If you do not care for the digital sound analog is both objectively and subjectively better. There is no question that on good equipment a good analog recording sounds very good indeed. I happen to prefer the digital sound overall, but I can appreciate a good analog recording.

To Arthur and heretobuy. : I have to say that anno 2022 a lot of digital  recordings are bad , specially the British. I cann’t understand it. When you take Nina Simone Muddy Waters , Charles  Lloyd , Pat Metheny,… ( original recording ): No digital recording gives that “pure” sound. Off course , it’s , what do you want about “listening to music”? Everyone  his tast , no problems. I wanna “feel” the music and what’s happen around it too ! But I appreciate  everyone’s opinion.

@arafiq    As @ltmandella says above.

A very stupid comparison.  Can't understand why some here waste their ink thinking the guy's for real.

It’s not a stupid comparison, it’s a satirical comparison. It’s a statement to those who believe digital is superior without fair comparison.

Geez, you guys. Not everything is so black and white in the world. A lot more colors out there than just those two. Think a little deeper as to the why.

And ltmandella is right, it’s not a meaningful comparison, that’s the point.

It's not meant to be.

1010101010

Digital will always be digital…..an approximation of the actual waveform. 

Both can sound exceptional, neither is absolutely the best nor is anyone’s playback chain accurate. I’m not after accurate, just enjoyable.

“It’s a statement to those who believe digital is superior without fair comparison.”
@thecarpathian

I think you got this backwards my friend. The OP was started to make it a point for those who continue to believe Vinyl is superior than digital, more specifically Streaming without the same level of commitment. A entry level device like Bluesound Node has become a de facto standard for most Vinyl aficionados, after all digital is nothing but 1’s and 0’s and Streaming is for background music or to build their Vinyl collection…LOL!

OP trolling.

@lalitk ,

Ah! I didn’t think of it in that direction. I believe you're right.

Reverse irony, as it were. Terrific Insight, kudos!

I missed the satire. I guess you have to have a longer memory than me for thread that was being parodied.

this happens within the digital topic all of the time. People buy a streamer for $10K compare it to a $300 CDP and declare that streaming is a far superior medium

Well-recorded digital can sound better than "vinyl"...but typically it doesn't if it's highly processed for lowest common denominator (LCD) replay, as is most pop music for earbuds, cars, & boomboxes. But with high quality replay, over-processing artifacts are clearly audible. So vinyl in its heyday was mastered for highest quality in the groove. If these disks sound bad, it's usually a replay problem: improper alignment, tonearm-cantilever resonance, cartridge loading, preamp EQ, stylus tip shape, and more. With digital, there are "no user-serviceable adjustments inside." However with vinyl, consumers and installers are invited "inside," perhaps with a reference book such as "Better Sound from your Phonograph 2nd edition,” out now.

I am 69 y.o and have had both high end turn tables and cartridges and high end CD players and high end DACs for streaming content to high end systems.  I would also agree that Digital is "better" than vinyl.  However what I miss about vinyl is the nostalgia of it.  The smell of the records and record jackets and the large format artwork on the album covers. The heavy turn tables often a work of art themselves. I miss the nostalgia and the "ritual" of handling and cleaning each disc after placing it on the turntable.  However that aside, digital is awesome that it is so bullet proof and effortless in finding and playing hundreds of thousands of songs without having to buy and store media.  Streaming services are awesome and although the bit rate is less than CDs, most people cannot hear the difference. Certainly not anyone above 30 (Unless their mother was Lassie.)

Now that we’ve got that straightened out, I'm looking for a good quality dac for my turntable, any suggestions?

Probably look for an ADC (not a DAC) for your turntable?

One of the major DAC manufacturers (I can't reveal which) is currently working on a little add-on box that will introduce subtle pops and ticks and barely perceptible needle-in-groove surface noise into the digital signal, so that streamers can have that ultimate analog experience.  Rather like the way modern film-makers can make their movies look like newsreels from the 1930s.

@rcaguy ,

Joking my friend, joking.

I need something to autobias the silicon in my solid state amp.  I’m tired of sand swapping 

I find it neither trolling, nor sheer stupidity. It is what was stated; ironic satire. I understand the premise of his initial post as @lalitk astutely pointed it out. No need to call the man an idiot. He made a valid point in a satirical manner. If you are of the opinion he didn’t, that's your choice. Name calling isn't going to change the validity of it.

If OP is just posting to say he's an idiot then, ...OK....he's right.

That's not even trolling, it's sheer stupidity

What’s the problem? You seem in distress. Relax. Take a deep breath. Go play with your pet.

It’s obviously satire! 

This is great. There seems to be two groups here. One that only read the title and the group who read the whole post.

For those who only read the subject. This was a joke.

I admit it is pretty funny to see a post get serious as opposed to going off the rails.

I’m glad many of you got the joke ... but I was also kinda surprised to see how many did not. I thought the irony was quite obvious ... I put very little money and almost zero thought in building the analog system. It would be absurd to think that the outcome would have been any different. And yet, we see this absurdity on display on these forums almost on a daily basis. Not a day goes by when some vinyl aficionado spends next to nothing on streaming setup and is quick to claim victory for analog. There is this perception that since it’s all ones and zeroes, streaming doesn’t deserve the same level of respect or investment both in terms of time and $$$.

Just in case someone is wondering, I do not think even for a minute that vinyl is inferior than digital. A well thought out analog rig has its own strengths and charms. But that result is a labor of love and passion .... you don’t just stumble upon great analog systems by chance. I just don’t understand why the same people turn into hopeless luddites when it comes to streaming. It is just mind boggling to see posters make ridiculous statements like DACs or streamers or better switches don’t matter since it's only ones and zeroes. Sadly, these are the same posters who have never bothered to try a better DAC or streamer, but that doesn’t stop them from spouting uninformed nonsense.

If you read these forums, you will see many people like @ghdprentice or @lalitk who have (or had) amazing analog systems. But they also gave the same respect to digital and can rightly claim that digital is on par with analog. I mean what’s not to like when you can play pretty much any music ever released for less than $20/month .. especially when technology has improved to the point that digital is just as good as vinyl.

And, by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with affordable streamers like BS Node. I have one in my second system and it continues to give me a lot of joy. The comparison is not meant to offend or belittle the experiences of those who are happy with Node or other streamers in that price bracket. But it simply cannot be used as a benchmark for what streaming is truly capable of in 2022, especially when compared to analog systems costing many thousands of dollars. If you are going to make comparisons at least bring some parity between the systems.

I wish we could stop seeing it as an either/or proposition and realize that both formats can perform at the same level in 2022. Peace!

when i was listening to vinyl it was only to transcribe it onto tape, and i’d use various black boxes to remove clicks and hiss and rumble, dehissers/autocorrelator to suppress hiss, and another box to stereoize mono recordings, and EQs to notch out things like hum and correct for deficiencies in the bandwidth/frequency balance of old recordings, and went so far as to use an old fashioned editing block [razor blade and grease pencil] to physically edit out loud POP!s that made it past the declicker. if a record had tracing distortion, into the trash it'd go. i have gone years before finding a good [not warped/off-center/worn/distorted] replacement for a few of them. i don’t miss those days one iota. digital is as far superior to analog, as analog tape was to edison cylinders.

The three of us have 60k, 30k and 40k systems with one of us having a 70k Vinyl system.  To our ears the vinyl is Amazing and blows the digital out of the water.  It’s not even close.  I won’t go the vinyl route though even though it sounds superior.  It’s just not my thing.

Wonder why you bothered to go do “high end” on the turntable? A Kenner close & play from 1968 would have sufficed for your highly scientific endeavor. 
 

How did your tests turn out comparing the Toyota Corolla vs the McLaren GT? 

arafiq

I wish we could stop seeing it as an either/or proposition and realize that both formats can perform at the same level in 2022.

Exactly and, in fact, it is not an either/or proposition. And it's the same with most of audio's other false-choice debates, such as tubes vs. ss or copper vs silver cabling.

emrofsemanon

... digital is as far superior to analog, as analog tape was to edison cylinders.

That's absurd - it's trivially easy to distinguish between tape and an Edison cylinder.  Edison's machine was entirely acoustic - it needed a horn for amplification.

Humans have the ability, or is it need to believe just about anything, many spend entire lifetimes defending those beliefs. Invention of social media seems to have greatly increased numbers of people living by zero sum game rules, apparently excites the amygdala.

It's a funny thang that one of the audiophile industries oldest members was doing a demo recently, in the retail store he is managing here in Santa Rosa CA, of a $8K Gold Ring Cart on a LINN Audio Turntable and Phono Stage with a direct to lacquer recording of a Big Band, and he was asked which he liked better Analog or Digital, and he said that all of his friends would call his answer blasphemous but if he had the money for the turntable/phono cart/pre-amp etc. (not LINN but better) he would take vinyl to the island.  I'm goin with him brah...       ~:^0

Amazing how the opening post continues to pass right over the head of some people. Even a post that clearly mockingly challenges the "superiority" of vinyl is enough to ruffle their feathers. Vinyl is serious business, I see.

@jonwolfpell ,

Ya just didn't bother to read any of this, huh?

Sweet Vinyl Sugarcubes help quite a bit.

I guess satire is a lost art. I obviously knew the initial statement was a joke and was offering an analogy. 
 

I happened to own the streamer he mentioned ( relatively new purchase) a really good turntable/arm/ cartridge  ( for a  long time) in a really nice system. All of the obvious points were made. Just having fun. 
 

I love the ease of streaming & the accessibility to lots of music I’ve not heard using Qobuz. A good recording on an album in good shape can sound a LITTLE more full bodied, fleshed out, warmer etc but in my system, it’s really close. I’m really enjoying both but probably not buying too many more albums. 

Comparing "digital" en masse to "analog" is equivalent to comparing karate to jiu jitsu. Which is better?

The answer: well, you need no answer.

The better prepared, stronger, fitter will always win.

When looking at equivalent levels of mastery, then the answer is: each are specialists of something. Do you want to knock out your opponent, or restrain him?

Digital tend to be more suitable for bigger groups of people, A/B evaluations, getting a good show, listening to the latest recordings, short sessions.

Analog is more suitable for finding the substance, lone whole night listening, touching soul an spirit, invoking memories that you thought were gone forever with force that takes away your breath.

Digital wants you to focus on the virtues of your gear. Analogue lets you flow with the music.

Of course, poor digital will focus on the weaknesses of your system, and poor analog will annoy you with issues you do not have with digital.

I could care less whether this is a joke/satire or not. However, I wonder how many audiophiles actually know why the vinyl sounds better than digital if that is indeed the case (I was convinced), given the fact that the theoretical dynamic range (DR) of a perfect LP is in the range of 60-70dB, much less than the digital system whose DR is often well above 90dB in the neighborhood of 110-120dB. At least I have yet discovered the perfect theory thru this forum.

As always, it comes down to what you prefer. I think digital sound better. It is also way more cost effective. But..  I have heard analog sound excellent. Set up what you like and enjoy your system. Also to remember to chill and enjoy the music you prefer. You can argue about genre on the next post.

OP,

+1

We need to move on to Qubit music. It will sound like both analog and digital, and yet not sound like either of them at the same time. 

Sorry you are dillusional....vinyl done right is better.....

A entry level device like Bluesound Node has become a de facto standard for most Vinyl aficionados, after all digital is nothing but 1’s and 0’s and Streaming is for background music or to build their Vinyl collection…LOL!

Since I use a DAC and streaming to listen causally, and to fine LPs, it at least looked like believable satire.