Digital is far better than vinyl

@gte357s

I personally found that digital far exceeded vinyl at a vinyl set up of 10k or less: i.e. 10k digital is far superior to 10k analog. However, in my experience, at the upper echelons, analog is superior. Vinyl probably begins to exceed digital around 15k.

I have ~$10k into my VPI Classic TT, Ortofon Cadenza Blue cartridge, Pass XP-17 phono stage and cables.  But more than double that into my digital setup (PS Audio DS DAC, Intel i10 NUC, NAS, EtherRegen, etc), LPS's for every single device, switches, media converters (fiber optic LAN), router, cables and on and on.  So that's at least a 2:1 ratio, digital vs analog and I wouldn't say my digital setup sounds any better.  Just different.

I'm with above! If I didn't have well over 3k albums I wouldn't bother with vinyl. I do like the art, physical stimulus and feelings of nostalgia playing records brings, but I'd not bother if I had lets say only 500 albums or so. I'd sell those off along with all vinyl equipment, streaming would be my sole reference source.

As for sound quality face offs, vinyl vs cd's or streaming. This has been back and forth battle for years. I can't determine some hard and fast rules in regard to cost differentials. I can say sound quality generally correlates to expenditures, gonna cost big time for both at the top end. My experience is optimizing streaming far more complex than vinyl optimization, far more variables what with networks, rendering schemes, music player software, linear power supplies, ethernet vs optical, local file implementation, must be forgetting something!

@tonywinga with your example of the use of valves WRT trains I was surpised that my showing a turntable for trains was removed by the moderators.
(Especially in a satirical thread.)

That RADAR system seems pretty cool. Thanks for sharing it.

In your dreams. This looks like click bait!  

I agree with what Lalitk said regarding the streaming and dac. I love the versatility of digital. You can make digital sound analytical and you can make digital sound analog. Cool to have more options. Plus, unless you have a million albums, digital provides unlimited music choices. Those are some big pluses to me. 

@tonywinga 

That’s quite a story, thanks for sharing. I do miss the tube glow but not the cost of tweaking with highly sort after tubes :-) 

I have a fun story.  When I was 18, I worked at the railroad yards in Indiana the summer before college.  This was 1976.  I was mowing grass and stopped at this shack near the hump to use their restroom.  The hump is how the train cars are sorted.  A locomotive pushes the cars up the hump and then the cars are cataloged and coast down the hill to a giant mass of tracks where they are switched to new trains being built.  It's a hub for sorting the train cars to their next destination.  Anyway, this shack I found housed an analog computer that used RADAR to read the speed of the railroad cars coasting down the hump and apply brakes accordingly.  I walked in and first saw a large room full of wet cells (batteries).  The main room was maybe 20x30.  A guy was sitting at a desk at one end.  The other end had a small meter reading miles per hour in front of windows looking at the hump and the cars rolling down.  On both sides of this room were banks and banks of chassis full of vacuum tubes- hundreds of tubes.  This giant room held the computer whose one task was to control the speed of the train cars.  I commented to this guy that he must stay busy changing out vacuum tubes.  He said he hadn't had to change a tube in 15 years.  The tubes were fed a constant DC voltage from the wet cells and apparently had little stress.  

One of the coolest things I have seen.  The railroad yards had some fascinating technology back in the day.

I can't.  My DAC has 8 vacuum tubes and my Linestage preamp has 6 vacuum tubes.  My phono preamp has the same 6 tubes.  Even my CD Transport has vacuum tubes.  I'm proud to say that my music server is simply a faceless computer but using a Keces power supply with an OLED display.  

I know, I must seem like a Neanderthal to some.  However, all but a couple of my lights in the house are solid state (LED) and I haven't had a vacuum tube TV in over a decade.  That's something.

“Nothing better than listening to music while watching the tonearm bob up and down in the warm glow of tubes.”

@tonywinga

I am curious, do you turn off tubes when streaming music?

On the one hand, it takes me 45 minutes, 55 seconds to listen to a 45 minute long CD. That’s if the CD has been put away properly in its alphabetical position and I can readily find it. It takes me 51 minutes to listen to a 45 minute long vinyl record. That includes removing the record from its jacket, de-ionizing, cleaning, cueing the tonearm, taking the preamp off mute and jumping into my seat before the music starts. And I hope that I don’t nod off at the end of the playing side of the record just to be jolted out of my slumber by the loud "CER-CHUNK, swap, Car Chunk" when the stylus drops into the holding groove. Even better these days, I can stream for hours with my iPad in my lap never getting up out of my chair. And if I nod off, I wake up to some strange song I have never heard that Roon has selected for me.

So for an old guy like me, digital has its benefits. On the other hand, vinyl still rocks. Nothing better than listening to music while watching the tonearm bob up and down in the warm glow of tubes.

Sooo, psychedelic mushrooms are legal in your state...

I was born and raised in an analog cabin in the backwoods on a dirt road. It was made by stacking unwanted vinyl records into logs. The gaps between logs were filled with obsolete 8-track tape. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. 

When the modern world of CDs came about, my dad abjectly refused this devilish technology and would not let them enter the door of the record store he and my mom owned. Needless to say, his record store went the way of the incense shops because he refused to adapt. 

It didn't matter that we had a hand-crank Victrola in the parlor for the collection of rare 78 blues and jazz, it didn't matter that his belt-drive turntable played first pressings with precision and nary a pop or skip. His equalizer was always set to flat and unplugged. Only one person could be in the room to listen to Sketches of Spain (his favorite album at the time) as your body interfered with the soundstage. None of this mattered when the CDs began arriving via my Columbia House CD membership. I would secret off to my room and put the digital magic disc into my CD player and turn up the volume to enjoy the absolute clarity and instrument separation my father could only dream about.

When my father passed away, I wrapped him in the album covers of his favorite artists and had him embalmed with 180gr vinyl. The coffin was pressed by the original Mobile Fidelity lab. Thank god dad died in 1998 because he'd be turning in his grave if he found out his coffin had been pressed using MoFi's OneStep. 

@ghdprentice 

+1 Count Basie 

Every time it rains it rains pennies from heaven ….

@arafiq 

I soaked red bricks 🧱 in a vintage French wine for a minimum of 24 hours and then covered the marinaded bricks with aluminum foil. How warm and engaging the music sang. 

👍😊

I agree with you all, I still have my vinyl collection and a couple of TT but spend most of my time listening to digital. Who would have thought.  

If I did not have all my legacy analog stuff, I would not give it a second look. I would put every cent into digital… digital streaming.

leaving aside @arafiq’s opening hilarity, i would agree with @ghdprentice ’s sentiment above 100% ...

for those of us who have been at this for decades, record players, phono stages, amassing lp’s, and all that comes with it, was the very essence of the audiophile experience... cd’s in their early days were simply awful, abjectly unmusical... so we all got really good at making analog setups really work well, developing our chops so to speak, tweaking tables, arms, carts, vtf, vta/sra, azimuth, antiskate, resistive/capacitive loading, learning about proper mechanical isolation, damping, so on and on -- it was all a necessary part of a lifetime journey dedicated to loving music and its reproduction for our private enjoyment at the highest level

all that said, unless one is simply in love with cool old things, with what digital music and streaming offers today, in its convenience, breadth of musical selection, cost and performance, there is simply no need, zero case, for getting into analog, collecting lp’s and so on, if one is starting from a clean sheet

@ghdprentice and @lalitk -- thank you for sharing your opinions. This is indeed excellent advice for folks who might just be getting into vinyl. I think it's best to own both formats, but if one is just starting out and has limited funds, your advice to stay single-mindedly focused on digital is very prudent.

I agree with @ghdprentice. Once you implement a digital streaming system with same level of dedication as your analog, you are in for a royal treat. And I cannot stress enough the importance of a good streamer (source) and DAC much like a TT and phonostage. Again, this is not to say digital is better than analog, they are fundamentally different in their presentation but nonetheless equally enjoyable. 

@ghdprentice, when I was a kid my parents had Basie’s Chairman of The Board LP that we played on our RCA Victrola home stereo console that had pride of place in our living room. I guarantee that if they were still alive today, and could play The Count just by touching his picture on a smartphone instead of going through the hassle of finding the record, dusting it and the needle off, and looking past all of the pops, hisses, and unavoidable skips and rumbling at loud volumes, they definitely would prefer digital. 

If I did not have all my legacy analog stuff, I would not give it a second look. I would put every cent into digital… digital streaming.

I am currently listening to Count Basie album recorded in 1957 Chairman of the Board) on streaming. If I did not know better I would guess it was vinyl. If I had twice the budget in digital… it would be even better, no question that is where to put your money today.

@ghdprentice 

Typically one gets a pretty cheap Rega, a decent phono stage and it trounces one’s digital end.

Great point! I guess this knife cuts both ways. My original OP was highlighting the discrepancy between a well-sorted analog rig vs. a hastily put together digital setup. But you are absolutely correct in pointing out that the reverse is also true.

Let me ask you this then ... let's say if you were starting out with vinyl and didn't already own 2,000 albums, would you have spent the same amount of money on building a reference analog system? Or would you have focused on extracting the last bit of fidelity out of your digital?

@gte357s

I guess all your experience points to digital. I mean if I didn’t have over 2,000 albums in outstanding quality that I collected over the last 55 years… I wouldn’t give vinyl a second look. In my system vinyl and digital are neck and neck… the better depends on the album. But I have $45K invested in both the analog and digital end. This is the investment range where they tend to be similar, in much lower and much higher price ranges vinyl tends to sound much better for a similar price range.

I would still consider having a professional come over and examine your system. It would be worth a couple hundred to see if there is some glaring problem. Typically one gets a pretty cheap Rega, a decent phono stage and it trounces one’s digital end.

BTW, I should be more specific.  My SACD and vinyl both sounds good.  If I compare vinyl to streaming data file from my NAS, then definitely I prefer vinyl.  And if I compared vinyl to streaming from internet like Tidal, then vinyl is quite a bit better.  Streaming from Bluetooth is the worst.

@ghdprentice

i missed to mentioned the $5000 includes a Allnic 1202 phono stage. And it is a no its fault, I am sure some people get good result from it, but I think it is a mismatch with my Coincident Statement line stage. I now use a EAR 868PL which has a very good MC phono stage as well. Then my cost are the same for both digital and vinyl at $3000.

Yes, I check all the alignment and stuff. I am no expert, so, I can only do as best as I can. My friends bought a software to adjust the alignment, but then it is another $1000 investment. And my cartridge is not something high end, it is a Denon H5LC MC cartridge, on a Sota star sapphire turntable with SAEC 308 tonearm, Cardas neutral reference phono cable.

I just feel it is not easy to get good sound from vinyl. It seems for me, the power has a significant effect on it. Maybe the stable power make the turntable speed more stable, who knows.  The digital is almost plug and play, no alignment is required.  And not much you can adjust, when you buy a DAC, you either like it or you don’t.  

My DAC is an APL with a compatible modified SACD player that output native DSD data directly to the DAC to do native DSD decoding, not DSD over PCM. But comparing vinyl and SACD, there is definitely a difference. The vinyl sounds much smoother and more natural. But maybe I am not too bother by this unnatural-ness of CD.

@gte357s

This is an unusual experience. Typically in this price range vinyl outshines digital. What is your Phonostage? I would look carefully at your analog end. See, if there is a cartridge alignment or others mounting problem. I would take it to a pro for setup.

On the other question. If this is all I had invested in vinyl I would not go on, especially with the poor sound. Typically in your price range vinyl just sounds so much better, it pulls you in. Digital will just get better and streaming best of all is nearly free with $14 / month with millions of tubes many higher def than CD. It is here and the future.

I also cannot get great sound out of vinyl even I put in similar amount of money for my digital and vinyl rig, around CAD $5000 for the turntable, arm, cartridge and cable, while my CD player + DAC cost around $3000. Until recently, I added a power conditioner and separate the power supply of the turntable and preamp from the power amp, big improvement on my vinyl rig, and the improvement is bigger than my digital rig. Now, I can finally get equally good sound from my vinyls. But still, I question myself, is it worthwhile to keep going the vinyl rig if I can only get equally good but not better sound. Each decent vinyl disc cost 5x more than a CD, and much limited in selection, and much less convenient.

i personally like this forum BECAUSE it is populated by ’unprofessionals’... that is, regular people who are dedicated to, and love music, and the fine equipment that produces it for us

there are some professionals that post here, and these posts can often be rather cringeworthy with their transparent commercial bias

OP is furthest thing from provocation if you get it. Far too many vinyl vs digital threads and posts where individuals become totally unprofessional with personal attacks.

@jefflz We are truly sorry for not meeting your lofty "professional" standards. There's another site called ASR where I believe humor or satire, or any other emotion for that matter, is frowned upon. From what I've heard they are quite uptight over there. I think you will be a good fit there. Good luck!

Sooo...no dancing??

@thecarpathian

Your last comment makes my point perfectly.   This is known as a living example.

@jefflz ,

Not really getting what you mean about unprofessional posts and a weak forum.

Perhaps you could better explain through interpretive dance...💃

It would have been funnier if the OP uploaded system photos of the bricks and audio technica setup.

The audiophiles who responded sincerely despite the unprofessional post by arafiq have increased the signal/noise ratio on an often weak forum, despite those commenters who are only immersed in feeble satire

For me digital is better in all ways except the sound is better on Lp’s. Two years ago, I moved to a "Off The Grid"  cabin and left the core of my system behind. I brought my records and left the Digital disc. I’m 69 years old and I grew up with vinyl. I remember sitting in the back seat of a 1950 Ford that belonged to my older sisters boyfriend listening to "Great Balls Of Fire" being played on a 45 record changer under the dash. These days our Cell Phones hold our entire digital music collection. Better, I think so, but that’s just me.

lol'n at the fellas who responded sincerely

I doubt more recent posters don't get the satire, plenty of posts point to it. Unless they're not reading through thread, this is chance for them to profess their bias, can't pass up the chance. The true believer can't help themselves.

Loved every minute of this thread. I can't believe how many people have missed the humour in it. 

Top and bottom of it all is either format can be truly excellent if you buy the right gear.

Great Post buddy!

Raised on records and reading all the hype I couldn’t wait for digital to get here, but when I heard it I was disappointed with the cd sound and digital recordings on records. Many years later I returned to the Cd format with vastly satisfying results. Now I enjoy my old Lps, Cds, & streaming (Qobuz) depending on my mood or what time permits. I get most pleasure from my turntables, but have to admit digital is most convenient and sounds pretty pretty pretty good!

@jjss49 and @jerryg123 -- thanks for ’getting’ the joke. I thought the satire was obvious but never expected that this thread would garner 150+ responses. That’s crazy!!! It also shows how many people never bothered to read the subsequent posts before jumping to conclusions.

"latent audiophilia nervosa and belligerence"

Haha! I couldn’t have explained the knee jerk and clueless reactions any better.

Tonight I’m going to sacrifice three virtual lambs at the digital altar to appease the vinyl gods (who are apparently the most thin-skinned and humorless gods in audiophiliac universe).

Happy holidays to everyone!

@arafiq

your terrific humor and satire is lost on many here, unfortunately, and instead you unleashed some latent audiophilia nervosa and belligerence!! 😂🤣 -- hope you had a good thanksgiving and long weekend, and are enjoying the music

to folks who are not quite in the know, @arafiq was facetiously (and hilariously, imo) making his op as a tit-for-tat ridicule of the all-too-serious post from a week or so prior, using the same goofy posture and passive aggressive posture to laud analog...

i guess you needed to be here, and then, see that goofy post and the responses it engendered, to get the joke...

anyhow, best wishes for the year end holidays to all, and hope your holidays are filled with humor and joy!!!

"Obviously, I was being facetious. "

Then why did you bother posting? Trolling?

@arafiq they are all wound a bit tight. Like the cable deniers. 

And for god’s sake, I have said multiple times that I don’t think analog is inferior. What’s up with you vinyl guys? So touchy and emotional. Lol 

@laoman please look up satire in the dictionary. Obviously, I was being facetious. Good lord!