I just asked my 2 kids, 28 and 31 years old if they have any friends that listen to vinyl. I'm laughing for real; so far my daughter told me that her friends buy albums as artwork. I had no idea! I've bought quite a few recent pressings and like the different color vinyl pressings these days . I look at them and say to myself "that's pretty" and put 'em on my turntable. I'm waiting for my son to respond.
Did vinyl sales just hit the proverbial brick wall?
Interesting read here about the state of vinyl. Personally, I had no idea what the percentage of vinyl sales was “merchandise” never to be opened or played.
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I think you've made my point; corks are not going anywhere and neither are vinyl records. Most wine sold is fairly cheap and forgettable, and most of that may well be screw-cap eventually, but there will always be a huge selection of finer wines that will choose to use corks, your comments on aging (very astute) notwithstanding. Most music released today is streamed, yet the bulk of that is also released on vinyl because a certain percentage of the audience appreciates the quality. Books vs. ebooks are another analogy to vinyl records, maybe a better one... e-readers could hardly be much better than they are now, yet books still seem to hold their place. |
@wesheadley… “Will all wine be in screw-cap bottles in 20-30 years?” You know… good question. Yes. I have a wine cellar with a few hundred bottles of red wine. I am seeing better wine having screw caps. At first I was very skeptical… the long tradition… the ability of oxygen to slowly age the wine. The technology to construct a cork. But the amount of tannins in good quality wine has been coming down over the years so that wine sold today is to be consumed in the next few years as opposed to cellared for a decade or two. I don’t see that trend ending. More and more I see real corks only used in top tier wines for connoisseurs. |
Will all wine be in screw-cap bottles in 20-30 years? I think sales will level off and grow based upon population like most other established markets. There will always be plenty of people that want to hold the music in their hands. Pity how most people choose to listen to music these days. Like only eating fast food. |
@wesheadley … “Vinyl records will not vanish along with the boomers. ”.
Well, no, vinyl will not vanish in the next ten years or so… but it will drop dramatically in twenty and be I tiny notch in thirty. |
Vinyl records are the number one selling physical medium for music. They still only make up a small slice of total music revenue when you factor in streaming. All age groups are buying vinyl, and turntables are becoming a ’thing’ to have in the home again. In 2021 turntables were the number one entertainment device sold on Amazon during the holiday season. There are countless turntable manufactures in operation today. Cartridge choices are endless. The product itself, the vinyl record, as a physical product that includes artwork and often more, it’s not just rented electrons. On higher end systems vinyl records just sound better than pure digital recordings, and that physicality is more involving-- for some. There is a ritual aspect to it. It’s not about convenience. In the end, convenience usually wins over consumers, but not for everything and not for everyone. Vinyl records will not vanish along with the boomers. It’s not going anywhere anytime soon. |
In 1971 I bought my first copy of Sticky Fingers for $2.97. Adjusted for inflation to 2023, that's $29.33. Given the heavier quality 180 gram vinyl, the remastering etc... I don't see that $35 - $40 is that big stretch. I think we get all tied up in what things used to cost. Stop me before I say "why when I was your age...." 😆 |
@mahler123 -audiophile releases are generally $40 and up. They use better vinyl, are better pressed with less pressings per stamper and are typically remastered which takes extra skilled labor. Regular LPs go for $20-30, depending on the label. my friend @limomangus - CD sales are shrinking. Maybe used prices are making a comeback, but not new ones. In many cases,you can’tgive them away. SACDs are a small niche in that market, and I don’t think their sales are broken out separately. I wouldn’t be surprised if SACD sales are doing much better than standard ones. |
I am very skeptical of the claim that Boomers are disproportionately driving LP sales. According to Billboard, Tyler Swift’s Midnights was the biggest selling vinyl album in 2022 and her re-release of Red took the fifth spot. Here’s the top 10:
Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I don’t know a lot of Boomer fans of Swift, Styles, Lamar, or Tyler. A google search brings up several other sites that place Wet Leg’s debut at number 6. I hope Boomers enjoy Wet Leg, but from what I know of the band, Boomers aren’t their targeted demographic. The other reasons for my skepticism are admittedly anecdotal (as is the evidence presented to suggest this is all Boomer-driven). My 18 year old nephew buys LPs and plays them on a cheap turntable (thankfully, not a Crosley, but not much better). He’s into metal core and melodic death metal. I find it interesting that the bands he likes are releasing their albums as LPs. I doubt they’d be doing this if there were not an identifiable market for them. He told me that for him and his friends it’s not about the sound quality. They like having a tangible object. They like the artwork. They like colored vinyl special releases. They like watching the record spin on the platter. I’m friends with someone who used to own several hi-fi stores, including one in a college town. About 3 or 4 years ago he told me that he had college students coming in weekly in search of a turntable. He started selling entry-level Pro-Jects. He said he couldn’t keep them in stock. His other table brands were VPI and SME. Vinyl may well never be the dominant format again, but I suspect there will be plenty of vinyl fans and collectors long after the folks who remember seeing The Stones, Zeppelin, or even Fleetwood Mac live in their heyday are long gone. |
Yes, records hit the wall at full velocity and broke into a million pieces, it brought a full standing ovation. However, that's the haters and there are many on Audiogon. I made a comment on how I love vinyl. I was attacked verbally. At 18 years old I had quite a collection of records. Before entering the US Navy I turned that collection over to my sister for safe-keeping. She let me down and sold them, I was furious and did not speak to her for almost a year. |
@limomangus - new regular pressings are between $22 - $25 for the most part, not $30. Many, like Blue Note, represent tremendous value and sound great. Most of the people buying vinyl are not your age. Certainly many are, but there are plenty of 20 and 30 somethings that like them (and 40's 50's and 60's), not to mention the hipsters of all ages that just think vinyl is cool. If you are happy with your record library and don't want any additional records, whatever floats your boat. For the rest of us, vinyl is not much more than new CDs and they cost more to make. If you want to rent and stream, that's a great option for people that can't afford to own a record, CD or HiRez DL. |
The state of analog records is frustrating and the article is c/w my experience. We have about 500-600 LPs, mostly pre 1990 recordings. At this stage our analog output sounds significantly better than the digital. If I want to buy a LP by contemporary jazz/classical my options are very limited- Wand, Olaffsson, Jarrett, Pink Martini. Even then, their offerings are limited. Forget about less mainstream but still wonderful artists- say Cafe Zimmermann. And yes, the new stuff is expensive. For a young person making their way in the world, spending even $500-1000/yr to build up a collection along with the expense of the hardware- If I was in that position, I would not spend my $ that way. It's another manifestation of the rent rather than own model an increasing portion of the population is being forced into. |
Most of the people buying the vinyl are older people like me.I'm not buying a album that I could of bought new back in 1969 for $3 bucks .So we here oh a,$30 dollar album is like buying a,$3 buck album 50 years ago.Ok but I'm not paying 30 for it or 100 or 125 for a MM album. WHICH we were told was analog from start to finish...... |
Couple things... #1 - @ghdprentice - Budget systems go up to $50K? Are you kidding me? Maybe $5K or $10K is pushing it, so for MOST people vinyl can sound better for the buck if you know what you are doing. #2 - back in college (early 80's) when I started collecting LPs actively, regular pressings were around $8-$10, audiophile ones were $15-$20, and UHQRs were $40-$50 (if I my memory serves me correctly, which is optimistic - I may be off a bit). Say inflation is 3-4%, that would equate to regular records today being $32-$40, audiophile ones being $60-$80, and UHQR's (or One Steps) being $160-$200. Things cost more now. I don't think the prices for new records are a rip off. The One Steps and UHQRs are the closest to being an even deal. 4% growth is better than declining. I do agree that the industry could be more efficient in releasing back catalogue titles, but they are a business and are trying to make money and expect blockbuster sales immediately upon new reissue, like movies at a theater. Thankfully we have companies like Acoustic Sounds (Analogue Productions), Music Direct (Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab), Speakers Corner, Blue Note, etc. that are keeping things moving forward. But even they won't do a reissue if they don't think it will sell. But I think they are closer to the market with expectations for sales than the regular labels are, who seem to be more conservative these days. |
The resurgence of vinyl the last 10-15 years has largely been, “millennials,” and now, “Gen Z.” |
Wow. Yes, so I actually read the entire article, and again...wow. The responses to this misinformed individual have pretty much already been made, either in his original article or here in this forum. Talk about apples and oranges. The two most interesting points I garnered from the reading were first, the only categories where increases were made was cassettes (very nominal) and (Surprise Surprise!) vinyl records. The overall decline I would assume is mostly from streaming. Seems a great way to introduce yourself to an artist or genre. However to this point recorded music has always been a 'possessive' endeavor (for me anyway). My generation 'streamed' AM radio in the beginning, and then FM. You couldn't get the material on demand, but you were guaranteed to hear it again in an hour or so. Younger X's, Z's and millennial's choose to spend their resources on other things (like $8 cups of coffee). They are generally much more mobile and less interested in purchasing things like homes or diamonds. Kudos to them all. I've been buying records for going on 60 years. Wasn't a sealed one in the more than 4K examples. However in the late 80's and early 90's I began to purchase multiple copies of popular artists like REM, U2, Nirvana, Soul Asylum, etc. and left them sealed. Since retirement I have been very fortunate to recoup my investments, ten fold and more. My second observation is that no one has even mentioned CONDITION when espousing on the pros and cons of used records. Always took very good care of my vinyl, running most less than 'perfect' pressings back to the retail outlet for an exchange. And yes, most are still in NM/M- condition. Whether from the 60's or 2K, my asking prices reflect this. As I watched what 'collectible' records started selling for 40 years gone, I weathered the "just take 'em to Goodwill" pressure of this time period. Happy now, supplements my paltry retirement and Social Security payments today. Peace and enjoy the music as it was meant to be heard. AB |
@bdp24 When I lived in L.A. (my proverbial old home town), I had a succession of Three Series BMWs. All with manual transmissions. Loved 'em.' One of them purchased at the factory and used to cruise through Europe. And yes, it wasn't difficult at all to load an electric guitar, amp, etc.,into the car for jam sessions (I'd be too embarrassed to call them genuine gigs). Yeah, yawn... Another Beemer adding to the SoCal crush. |
@edcyn: The size of the Tahoe is exactly why I bought it; I use it to haul my drums to gigs. For awhile I had it AND my old '84 BMW 528e, but by 2008 it's parts had started to regularly wear out, and BMW parts aren't cheap. I didn't want to sink anymore dough into it, and sold it to the State of California for a grand. |
I guess it's with motor vee-hickles where our tastes finally diverge. My pride-of-ownership car is a 2016 Mazda Miata me and the wife bought new off a dealer's lot in Northridge. It had apparently been sitting there for two years plus, probably because of the manual transmission (a six speed!). Finest assembly quality of any car I've owned. No conceivable space to ever put a decent radio in it. Got it for the proverbial song. The only true problem with it is that it is so small it's absolutely impossible to find in the mall's parking lot. You gotta remember exactly where you put it. |
Vinyl, despite the Record Industry's spurious claims that it is the best selling format by $value, but CDs still outsell vinyl and streaming overwhelms them both on a per unit basis. Even digital downloads do better than vinyl. Keep in mind, the Record Industry isn't just located in the US so people all over the world are buying the most convenient format (CDs and downloads) to listen to music. Not everyone has access to reliable wi-fi or cellular access for quality streaming either. Heck my in-laws, who live in south Louisiana, have terrible cellular and internet services so streaming anything high-res is out of the question. "Vinyl", realistically has, for the last 25 years, been the domain of collectors and music enthusiasts. A majority of music listeners under the age of 50 aren't that into collecting music (vinyl, CDs, downloads) per se. Nor are they investing heavily in hi-fi or mid-fi setups. Most listen to music as wallpaper. Most are listening with noise-cancelling IEMs that aren't costing more an $150. Most are streaming through their TV or phone via a soundbar or bluetooth speakers, respectively. I buy & collect music in the following formats - vinyl, CDs and downloads. For certain artists, my format of collecting is dependent upon the format I started collecting them in. Some artists never released anything on vinyl - only CD, some both, some release only digitally and some release across all 3 formats. For example, I have The The's entire catalog on CD, Cabaret Voltaire on CD, Calexico on vinyl, Neko Case - CD and vinyl, Miles - vinyl and CD, Monk - vinyl and CD. You get the picture. I buy direct from artists or artist labels and hard to find or original/2nd pressing stuff on Discogs. New vinyl is hit or miss in quality so thinking it's the greatest sounding thing since spliced tape is dubious at best. I have original jazz and blues pressings I inherited from my father that I have on CD because at that time in the early 90s I was in college, CDs were the most convenient format to move around as an apartment hoping student. When my father passed I pulled my favorite albums plus obscure stuff that will never get re-issued or put onto streaming services. I have CDs by artists that will never get reissued, are out of print and not available on streaming. Vinyl is ridiculously over-priced because many of the new pressings are special issues or remasters (that aren't necessarily better than a 1st or 2nd pressing). In fact I've found some great bargains buying 2nd pressings vs. 1st and they sound as good if not better. |
That article had gotten a lot of hype and is poorly-researched at best. No way 50% goes unopened. Boomers who are unaware of the number of young people buying vinyl these days reveal their ignorance with their comments. And yes, the market for vinyl, like all "collectibles" and home theater, and home gym equipment, skyrocketed with Covid lockdowns...and will come back down to Earth. And yes, the reissues of everything are overpriced, especially if you live in an area where you can find a lot of good used record stores. As Boomers die and their wives unload their collections on the market, prices will fall further and only the great stuff will remain in demand. the vast majority will be landfill fodder for lack of demand. Even some "good" stuff. There's a very strong market for all hip hop on vinyl. Always was always will be. I purge my collection frequently to keep it lean and mean, when a better sounding version comes into my possession, I unload my previous versions... I've had a much easier time selling hip hop classics than Boomer classics. Market research. Not long-held assumptions. Do your homework.
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I’m with you mijostyn. It’s been that way ever since, as a very young child, playing over and over Mom’s three Rock n Roll singles, Bill Haley’s "See You Later Alligator", "Rock Around the Clock", and Little Richard’s ’Tutti Frutti". One of those might even have been a 78 rpm. This was back in the mid-fifties using our fold open record player. Mike |
@bdp24 Hey, I was a nut for collecting and riding racing bicycles until my advancing age and ever-diminishing physical abilities told me it was time to let it pass on. I still, though, get a kick out of riding the one racing bicycle I still have -- a Bianchi Infinito dressed with Campy Chorus components. |
@8th-note 1+ I have been collecting records since I was 4 years old. Happiness was getting a new record and the smell of a warmed up Zenith portable. It is part of what I am and I can not get rid of it. So, I will collect records for the duration and my wife will figure out what to do with them after. |
Could I make the case that all the "popular" classic records have all been reissued on vinyl (audiophile versions too) and people interested have already purchased them? Thus slower sales of vinyl are the result? Blue Note is now reissuing more obscure or less famous titles that probably do not appeal to nonjazz diehards. Plus, I actually think the whole MoFi controversy has made some buyers much pickier in the audiophile release area (not buying everything that comes out). Many of the younger buyers are generally more into the colored vinyl, special edition thing. More like a comic book thing. I’m not certain sound quality has anything to do with their purchase. How many more "Kind of Blue" reissues can one have? I always thought the vinyl resurgence was due to cheap, used vinyl. Now that the once-used $1 bin Journey ESCAPE LP is now $35 +, Vinyl popularity is bound to wain a little. |
@skyscraper Noting your remarks on longevity and acquiring record collections, many years ago I used to buy a lot of used classical records at a shop in London run by a guy who was around 25 years older than me. He used to say 'I'll get your collection one day". This amused me. The shop hasn't been there around 10 years now, but I don't know if he is. |
@edcyn: No problem, I was in Music Millennium again today (oh no, I'm going to record stores every day now ;-) and bought the disc. But it's a CD, not an LP (like I said, the album is getting hard to find on LP. If they had the LP I'm sure it would have been priced at maybe 20 bucks). I know, my post didn't make that clear. Anywho, now I have a copy for the car (2000 Chevy Tahoe Ltd., lowered 4 inches front and rear). |
as for the Rhianna thing, blech except for the last song... plus, was she lip synching? if so, that would add further to the sleek but shallow artificiality of the whole thing: circus. jus sayin At least Dylan elevates the culture... grrrr... and yes Blowin In the Wind is quite relevant to this day, but then most of the Super Bowl crowd most likely doesn’t care about such things, being enamored of spectacle: bread and circus... as for the LP question: LPs are a nostalgia item. Cool to listen to and spin, but are they worth the hassle? Not to me, and I’m an audiophile, let alone to casual listeners... But, I also do understand the pleasures of physicality, and LPs do offer that more than does streaming or even CDs. I’m not surprised to see their oft-touted new sales growth slamming on the brakes; it’ll go down from here, I’d posit the guess... |
@mijostyn we agree to disagree. Yes, it's not green. Partly why I feel better buying used. |
To understand the nature of recorded music consumption one needs to break it down into endpoints and the drivers associated with them. Consumption endpoints characteristics include fixed vs mobile and solo vs shared. Mobile further breaks down into portable, e.g. earbuds, ANC headphones, and automotive. Fixed subcategories include HiFi, distributed (e.g. smart speakers), and commercial (e.g. supermarkets and dentist offices). Records are limited to, borrowing a term from aviation, fixed base operations, whether personal (headphones) or shared (speakers). Mobile personal requires a device and earbuds or headphones; mobile shared requires a vehicle. Vinyl was and is a niche requiring a fixed base but offers a unique physically engaging experience many find more enjoyable. Streaming will succeed as it can be fixed, or portable, but requires an internet connection. The final mode, now struggling, is broadcast, which can be enjoyed across all endpoints, but lacks the granular personal choice of other media. It’s real strength in forming a cohort has largely been subsumed by social media - disk jockeys were the influencers of their day. Picking one age group or one consumption endpoint, or worse one metric, and generalizing out of context from there is faulty logic at best. |
Love the ridiculous notion that this fad will fade as all the baby boomers fade away(die). I have several large record stores within a 20 minutes or less drive from my house in North Dallas, most 90% of the patrons are 30 to 45 years old and these stores are always busy. Talking to one of the principals of the business he said that their stores in Denver and KC are tcontinuing to grow at double digit rates and the demographic is similar. Also their e-commerce business is off the charts. The notion that young people want to listen to music on their “telephones” (man you’re old “devices”) is valid to a point, portability is key and we are more active. Once these 20 something’s have some disposable income they may come learn more about higher end audio. |
Regarding the trend of LP sales - The increase in sales has gone on long enough to remove any doubt that this is a fad. That doesn't mean that sales won't level out or even decline somewhat but to say that the industry is killing vinyl is absolutely laughable. Regarding the manufacturing issues of vinyl - LPs are far more difficult and costly to manufacture than CDs. Watch a couple videos from a record plant and you can see that there is a lot of labor involved. Each machine can only stamp one record at a time and it is an agonizingly slow process. The stampers are expensive and mechanically fussy. The steps to make the metal master are also labor intensive and each unit must be carefully inspected by a carbon based life form. LPs are made with an inherently expensive, labor intensive, and difficult-to-automate process. I didn't even mention the cost of the album sleeve. Artist & Label Revenue - Yes, LPs are a premium product. It is extremely difficult to make money in today's music environment and even a fairly popular band will only receive a pittance from streaming. LPs are a major source of income for the band and the label needs to make money too. When you buy a new LP you are saying to the artist that you value their work and that you are willing to pay them a little bit of money for it. It irritates me that people like the article's author expect everything for minimal or free cost. Except for the rarefied upper level of artists (Taylor Swift, Harry Styles, et al.) the bands and performers we love don't make a lot of money. Please don't begrudge them a few dollars from an LP. The author of the article has a poor understanding of manufacturing and a worse understanding of the music industry. The LP business has nothing to with the mass market strategy he espouses. Nobody expects the volume of LP sales to grow to hundreds of millions of units per year. It's a boutique business catering to enthusiasts. It's like saying that Ferrari should mass produce its cars, lower the price to $20,000 per vehicle, and increase sales to a million cars per year. In other words, Ted Gioia is an idiot when it comes to business. I would not trust him to tell me how to run a coffee stand, let alone the entire music industry. |
Physical music requires an investment. For the most part it is a fairly expensive investment relatively speaking. To listen to online or streaming you only need your phone and earbuds. What drove the vinyl resurgence was mostly an upper middle class / affluent segment that is aging and fairly limited. The other segment were the collectors who mostly deal in the used market. The authors questioning why the record companies don’t expand manufacturing and drive prices lower...why would they do that? This market doesn’t reward spending money on R&D or expanding manufacturing. The masses are NOT buying vinyl. This is a relatively small market and doesn’t justify spending the money. Best to take as much profit for as cheaply as possible. I own vinyl, CD (SACD), and streaming (saved locally) of a number of albums. I don’t buy vinyl to collect, though many do. I buy for the listening quality. To that end, CD (SACD) offers me the best sound quality. This is especially true tor the Original Master Recordings on SACD format. Next would be one of the high quality streaming services I have over some high end headphones. These even rival the limited edition vinyl half-speed master recordings I have like Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms", which on my system the vinyl does sound very good. Sadly, streaming is getting better and better. The people buying physical music just aren’t a large enough segment to keep it going to any great extent. Producing limited numbers of vinyl the old way actually serves the best purpose, scarcity with higher demand pricing. |
@yoyoyaya , That would be wonderful but that is not what I have seen and as a family doc I spoke with a lot of young people. Record sales were bound to pick up as boomers got wealthy. The children of boomers had some exposure so there is some interest there. @grislybutter , The population of a used record store is not representative of the population as a whole. You may see younger record buyers at a used store because us rich old guys do not go there, or any other number of reasons. The point is as far as the overall popularity of records is concerned your observation gives us absolutely zero insite. What will are the demographic popularity of records over a period of 10 years. If interest does not pick up in the Zoomers then vinyl will die. The other problem with vinyl is that it is not the greenest of industries. |
@mojistyn - the revival of yinyl sales was not driven by an older demographic. While a proportion of older listeners have undoubtedly come back to vinyl, having previously switched over to CD, a cursory glance at the racks of any store selling new records will reflect the fact that there is a huge proportion of music which is not targeted at an older demographic. Contrary to what you say about phones and computers, it's precisely because so much of the modern world is virtual that younger people are attracted to a physical format, especially one that is both visually and aurally rich. |