Because they can!! If the real breakdown of cost is analyzed I would not be surprised if it cost under $3,000 to purchase the components and assemble. If they are business people. Seas and the like sell a lot of components to companies that market $15k speakers.
Did I Expect too much?
I purchased a pair of speakers from a US manufacturer who I shall not name. The speakers are beautiful and the sound exceeds my expectations (after a minor upgrade). So why would such a reputable company use six dollar binding posts? It makes no sense. I replaced them with Cardas binding posts and decent 12 gauge wire between the driver and posts. My system is valued for clarity and clean highs. The difference was audible. I know, snake oil. But it wasn’t. I don’t think that spending $15K for speakers is nothing. So yes, I was disappointed.
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It would actually be helpful to name the company. There can be a myriad of reasons why those what they did, but cost and profit could certainly be among them. Big companies are influenced by many departments other than the chief designer, and tend to be more profit conscious. FWIW, I changed my old 80s binding posts to pure copper, and noted a small improvement in clarity.
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I recently had the owner of a very good audio retail store tell me that a speaker manufacturer will spend $10K to build a speaker. They then wholesale that speaker to the retailer for $20K. 100% mark-up or 50% margin. The retailer then puts the speaker on the floor for $40K. Again, 100% mark-up or 50% margin. I have no reason to think he was not being truthful. My takeaway is the retail price has nothing to do with the cost of manufacturing or my expectation of highest quality components. Cheers. | |||
It's not easy to build a pair of speakers that are beautiful and sound beautiful for people with high expectations for $15,000. Running a business today is not cheap or easy. Anyone who thinks it is probably hasn't run one. | |||
Please share the name of the company and the speakers. It would be helpful for prospective buyers to know. Quality parts throughout is one of the reasons I bought Arendal and Revel speakers. My subs have some lower quality parts but I expected them to at their prices points. They still sound excellent. | |||
@bigtwin That's about right. Most manufactures spend 20-25% of MSRP to build their speakers. | |||
It you opened up your speakers and checked out the crossovers, 97% of us would probably find electrolytic caps, sandcast resistors. At best, you might find a generic polypropylene cap on the tweeter. It's called maximizing profit margin. You want to know where you will often find the best quality/value? Speaker KITS! Heck, I was just looking at Parts Express, the Solstice kit. It sells for $1500/pr., the woofers alone are $360 Morel drivers x 4. Talk about value. And you can tweak those crossover parts, wiring, posts, at will. | |||
Manufacturers look for the cheapest parts that get them the sound they are looking to achieve. That is a reasonable approach. Any other part that alters the sound could be improving the sound or making it worse from the prospective of the buyer--it depends on personal taste and system matching. Even if one part seems to be better to the manufacturer, the manufacturer has to consider whether it is worth putting in a more expensive part that MAY improve the sound, but not necessarily so. I know a custom speaker builder who often builds with ultra expensive parts and wire who has, after listening to the build, substituted in much cheaper wire that was better for the particular voicing he and the customer wanted. This custom builder also makes custom tube amps. Some of his most expensive builds employ very ugly and very cheap looking binding posts made of thin brass and having plastic nuts for screwing down the lugs. They are not really cheap because these are vintage parts, but in their day, they were cheap. He has customers insist on the posts being replaced by the like of WBT solid silver posts because they are, and they look, expensive. The dealer prefers the sound of the brass binding posts in his amps. I don't think there are parts that are universally better or best, it is a matter of particular implementation and personal taste. Please tell us a bit about the sound of the Charney speakers you have. I have only heard their Companion model (with Voxativ and AER drivers) and liked the sound very much. | |||
The Charney speakers have maybe 150 hours on them. The AER BD3 drivers are not broken in as yet. So best to hold off on any reviews until about 500 hours. My initial impression of the AER drivers are that they are well balanced single source drivers with whizzer cones that enhance high frequency response. Even now, the immediacy of transitional tones is impressive. Full review to follow.
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Some manufacturers and individuals believe parts is parts, go to diy audio forums and you'll find vast majority believe measurements tell the whole story. Techies, designers, EE mostly concerned about circuits meeting certain design criteria, most of that has nothing to do with sound quality. Perhaps there is a listening panel or individual, why would you expect them to have golden ears. As a modifier/parts changer I've been inside much equipment, use of generic parts is standard operating procedure. This is reason I no longer purchase most audio components from large corporations, I've found the smaller boutique manufacturers far more engaged with their products sound quality and using boutique parts is part of their voicing process.
I get the parts cost argument, and this may be true for some manufacturers. So, lets say you're going to use a crap load of cheap Chinese resistors because you can get them for .20 cents apiece, this vs. Takman or other reputable resistor, perhaps these closer to $1 apiece, so I'll be generous and say there's fifty of these, so you're telling me that extra cost is not viable! Just for one example, Prima Luna uses the Takman throughout their amps and pre's, these products relatively lower priced in world of high end. The use of cheap parts in crossovers with their relatively low parts count is even more inexplicable. | |||
I liked the Charney Companion speaker I heard with the AER BD3 driver. This is a very lively sounding system with a surprisingly rich sound, not the sort of lean and mean sound one use to hear in single driver systems, and the top end was reasonably smooth and extended. I am betting you will like your speakers a lot after break in. I heard both Companion speakers (one had the AER driver, the other had a Voxativ) driven by single ended 300B amps. The combination worked very well. The little bit of extra lower midrange and upper bass that 300B amps typically provide would help most single driver systems. Working with custom builders is a good way to get just what you want from your amp, including the choice of premium parts. As for your speakers, there is really not much you can do for DIY upgrade of a speaker without a crossover, except to change wire and binding post as you have done. How about going completely nuts and putting a BD5 in your speaker? | |||
I own a pair of Excaliburs with the AER BD 3. Sounds great. Have you heard the AER BD 5? I would be too scared that I would get the upgrade itch, but could never see myself spending that kind of money on a speaker. Of course, perhaps I can wait long enough for my hearing to decrease just enough to not be able to hear the difference between the BD 3 and BD 5 lol | |||
No difference with the auto manufacturing industry. They make huge profits between what it cost them to make the cars (materials, labor, etc.) and what they ultimately charge for them. It's called..........."Capitalism." Ultimately, it's up to the consumer to figure out what's a scam and what's not. Happy listening. | |||
If they are only using $6 binding posts (probably have ferrous materials, which would go a long way to explain why the Cardas sounded better), I would be very dubious as the the quality of the crossover components used. After all, those a much less visible So if they are going to skimp anywhere, using inferior caps, coils and resistors is very likely. And talk about an area in the execution of building speakers that can make a big difference! A friend and I used to have a cottage business upgrading speakers. When we came across a speaker that had good engineering, but budget execution, just swapping caps and coils made a pretty obvious improvement.
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@kennymacc it's pretty ridiculous when a home audio system cost as much or more than an automobile, I bet the auto industry has a lower profit margin per car than high end audio per system. | |||
@gdaddy1 the prices PS audio charges for direct buy don't seem to be any cheaper than they were with dealers, just more profit for PS audio. | |||
I never heard s BD 5; I was kidding about that upgrade. I have heard some pretty wild drivers, such as the equally expensive Voxativ fieldcoil full range driver. I also heard a system with fiekd coil woofers and midrange drivers and a field coil tweeter that cost $60,000 a pair. I could not afford the power supply for these drivers, never mind the drivers. | |||
Simonmoon, The OP has single-driver fullrange system; there is no crossover. I’ve heard the slightly larger version of the OP’s speaker and it is the first single-driver system that I really liked a lot. Since then, I’ve heard a few more great sounding single-driver systems, like the ones made by Songer Audio. | |||
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Actually, a concierge audiophile manufacturer deserves a higher profit margin. This is because of a smaller market for what's presented, be it electronic or speakers. It's why Macintosh has survived where the path is jammed with 'the rest' on it's heels... Substitute Mac with your fav, or anyone else's... Spouse and I 'do' something similar, but a much different product. On a personal level, I've decided to make 'art pieces' that just happen to sound great..... ;) | |||
What would you rather have to extract maximum profit with less overhead, a business model where you can sell a relatively small number of units with high profit margins or large number of units with small profit margins? There is a third way, I seek out the small manufacturers with low overhead and reasonable pricing. Take a peak inside your audio components, if you have knowledge of parts cost you'll understand one facet of the price equation. Take in account packaging of component, things like case work, speaker enclosures, these are things we can see with our own eyes and estimate value. We can also fairly estimate some overhead costs if we know about the facilities and number of employees at these firms. R&D costs certainly important as well, this much more difficult to cost out. Marketing/advertising another cost. Trying to be comprehensive here, but may have missed something in this short list. Using this information can certainly give us decent estimate of value, and I'm not saying an extremely high cost component couldn't possibly be good value. In the end law of supply and demand always wins out, high value consumer goods don't always win out in marketplace, in fact they probably rarely win out. | |||
OP..."So yes, I was disappointed" Anyone in the hifi game is going to be disappointed MANY times during the upgrade path. Forget about your expectations and roll with the discovery of your personal tweeks improving things...That's the point of hifi. Hifi manfacturers are not here to meet your expectations. | |||
Parts cost vs. total item selling price is always a black art. Back in the early '70's, I was a salesman in a small but decent audio shop. One of the perks was the discount offered to guys like me by manufacturers - want to know a product better? Buy it for yourself at half the retail price. It was my "after work" job and I never took a penny out of the store, but got quite a few items I still have and love. One was a speaker we sold for about $300 each. Nothing special, but I liked the sound dispersion because of a second tweeter on the back of the cabinet. We had a pair on display with the grills off, and some inquisitive patron decided to try seeing how much travel the 12" woofer had by just pushing on the cone. We ordered a replacement driver and were amazed when it came in with a billed cost of $4.00! | |||
Our need for value has the bigger companies outsourcing to sweat shops to manage costs. There's also companies that invest in themselves, Dynaudio, KEF, Paradigm to name a few that do everything in house that has the benefit of controlling markup, but the current state of high end pricing has put many brands catering to the 1%. It would be hard to take a modern brand seriously that used spring clip wire retainers for their products. | |||
@steve59 I don't think need for value is the culprit here, need to keep cost of device lower and/or extract max profit margiins culprit for the labor cost part of equation. Price is the major purchasing determiner for consumer items, value hard to determine or doesn't even enter the mind. | |||
Looks like you got robbed hard man, sorry to hear. Here’s a speaker made in America, i know something about...with cardas binding posts, mundorfs n all built in...all of it for $2200 new. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbdc6a-tekton-design-epic-15-full-range When it beats the sonic daylights out of that thing you bought for 15k back to Timbuktu, get your money back and save yourself $15000 - $2200 = $12800 God bless.
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sure, there's brands that can pull prices out of the air without justification, but they don't get my dollar. | |||
It seems that some people think the binding post makes the speaker. I don't see how anyone can claim you got ripped off just on the basis of the quality of the binding post, particularly when it hasn't even been established that the binding posts were inappropriate for the model of speaker. The Charney speakers I head were screaming bargains based entirely on what I heard, not based on slim evidence that they used a few cheap parts. I will not fault the post recommending a Tekton speaker because I think they are pretty good for their price too, but, someone who likes the immediate, lively and engaging sound of Charney speakers has not been ripped off. If you can improve them by customizing certain parts selections, have at it. Almost all speakers can be improved by making them fit one's personal system and taste--change wiring to the speaker and inside the speaker, change footers, etc. But, it is NOT the case that more expensive, popular parts will always be better--I know a custom builder who can almost instantly spot the use of Mundorf capacitors in speakers and amps; he hates them almost with a passion. | |||
@larryi I agree with your comments 100%. Charney makes a really nice cabinet with close attention to woodworking and veneering. Brian is unbelievably good at keeping his customers up to date. I heard more from him than I do the kids expecting an inheritance. What people pay for their kit is a personal choice. It took me years to decide on the equipment I have and I have no regrets. | |||
@langla4 Which Charney speaker do you have? If I remember correctly the BD3 drivers have binding posts depending on your wire you could go directly to the driver and bypass the extra binding posts. Just a thought… | |||
Boutique parts don't automatically create the perfect audio component. There is intrinsic or fundamental design that is most important, parts only as good as the circuit they're placed in. The other possible issue with boutique parts is they are generally uniquely voiced vs generic parts. First off they are more likely to provide greater transparency/resolution vs the generic so voicing will be more apparent. Voicing or presentation also more individualized in the boutique part, particular design elements such as metallurgy specifically chosen for their presentation. I don't find it surprising in regard to @larryi post the maker didn't find those particular Mundorf caps pleasing. I've experienced Mundorfs with the silver, not going to work well in every situation, highs may be spotlit, mids thinned out, bass less full. For this situation a nice copper Jupiter film cap may have been the perfect cap.
Point is you don't just go into speakers or any component and just willy nilly put in just any boutique parts, one has to do their research, plenty of info out there on voicing or presentation of these parts. And even then one may have to experiment with a variety of these parts. I went through three different caps, two resistors, changing out various positioning of different types of hook up wire in my custom build 300B amps to get presentation I wanted. Even more changes with the crossovers in my Klischorns. And since we're talking about speakers, crossover mods are probably without a doubt where one can actually easily hear substantial change for the better. binding posts and internal wire probably should be the least of your concerns. The big changes far more likely to come from caps, resistors, inductors, I'd really emphasize the inductors as responsible for amazing differences in tonality and transparency/resolution. | |||