Chorus,
I gave you 2 excellent choices to go with. Threshold SA series or T series. I happen to not like Solid State as much as tube amps because tubes sound more like music compared to SS. The 2 amps I’m recommending are tube-like sound and extremely good. When I say good, I mean outstanding. Just so you get an idea of where I’m coming from. Your mid level cables should be fine-to-perfect. I like some other amps mentioned but what I like to see in a solid state amp is simplicity and built solid. I know of other amps that sound fantastic too but are built very complex with a ton of internal parts. I feel that the simple, well made SS are my favorites and most reliable. Also, I’m bias that I highly prefer class A amps. If I were you I would not discount older class A amps, 20+ yrs. Some of these are beast and will out live you and me and the next generation. Some just require new power caps and they are good for another 30yrs. The 1st thing I listen for in a SS amp, is it musical and transparent. Next, does it have detail. Is it refined and does the music flow. Resolution, imaging, soundstaging, etc. I go down the line. If it passes all the things that matter to me, then I feel it’s a killer piece and it’s for me. You happen to be fortunate that your speaker do not need a lot of power. Try a Threshold T-100, or T-50.
I
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Keep your eyes peeled for a used Luxman L-590 AX II. Probably the best value on the planet. As for Accuphase have owned three of them, an E-470, E-600 and now own the E-800 (the last two are Class A.
If if I had to select one integrated for dollar for dollar value, it would be the Luxman. It does everything so well and the specs are way understated. |
@aldoallen
.. I can’t think of anything sound wise I would change but it is definitely not audio jewelry. Just a plain black box... aldoallen, Congrats. It is unique black box. Not like most other 10w amps. My colleagues ZOTL displaced a former Cary -and- Dennis Had Inspire amp (all stock, unmodified) yet he does like detail and fast punch over lush-plush-bloom triode tube sound. And, to read yours displaced a Coda 10.R SS with the first 25w in Class A - is notable. Synergy with speakers is everything. Glad u found it for your ears and prefernce. :) |
In reference to your fear that Krell needs a lot of service - I am a Krell owner for 15 years - using three different integrated amps over 15 years - I run two stereo systems in my home. Over that 15 years my Krell’s needed service twice.
As far as I am concerned - that shows a very high quality standard.
just my personal experience !
Happy Listening and Stay Healthy!
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Audioman58 - here is a big Hell Yes concerning the new Krell K300i!! I have been running mine for 6 months now into my Maggie 1.7is. This integrated has no issues pushing my Maggie ‘heat sinks’ to new levels of performance. The new circuit design keeps the amp portion in Class A for quite some time - I should know - I push the most inefficient speakers and I can run you out of the room. I wanted more bass - so I bi amped into the Maggie bass panel by adding a Son of Ampzilla II just for the bass panel . The Krell has a preamp out (that is adjustable) to match volumes.
Just my 2 cents
Happy Listening and stay healthy!
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Decooney:
I would say the LTA amp leans more toward very good solid state and less towards lush tube sound. Compared to my CODA amp it has a little more detail and adds some air around the individual instruments and voices if that makes any sense. It is hard to describe and I think the best description is tube tone and solid state detail.as LTA describes it. I was not satisfied at all with the Rocket 88. Even though it could put out 60 watts, the bass disappeared on my open baffle speakers and I don't listen much to bass heavy music. The CODA corrected the bass problem but it was barely idling running my speakers and most of the 25 watt Class A was going to heat the room. I took a chance on the LTA amp based on what I was hearing from the MZ3 preamp and I am very pleased with it. It still amazes me that this little 10 watt tube amp can drive my speakers as well as the CODA amp and the CODA is is a very fine amplifier also.
The LTA amp came with four Russian 6P14P-EB tubes and four 7062 tube that are unmarked but I think may be RCA? I suppose the tube sound could be adjusted by using different tubes but I like it the way it is.
I can't think of anything sound wise I would change but it is definitely not audio jewelry. Just a plain black box. |
Based on online measurements, the Luxman 550 seems misleadingly underrated when it comes to wattage. I suspect this has to do with meeting test standards requiring pre-conditioning.
I'd treat it as a much larger amp when considering it's application.
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Dennis Had 'Inspire Fire Bottle' SET tube amp is an option.
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@aldoallen
..LTA describes their sound as tube tone with solid state detail which I think is very accurate...
-------- aldoallen, A friend who’s owned the same tube and SS amps I’ve run described his ZOTL amp the same way as you have, and LTA does on their site. And, we’ve both owned solid state amps which have "tube tone. Friend indicated his ZOTL can be "less tubey" sounding, and therefore kept a few of his tube amps to rotate in/out periodically. Been asking him to roll some different tubes in it to compare again. The other comment on the LTA site about tube amps is... "but their “warmth masks details and can sound thick.". Yes, true for some tube amps, not all. Particularly not with more modern amps with modern power tubes like KT150s. Seems LTA/ZOTL was looking for a hybrid sound and approach. It’s great to see different approaches. I would’n’t mind demo-testing the ZOTL40 Reference amp with my custom speakers, to see what it can do, and how different it is versus some of the more capable Class A>A/B solid state amplifiers we all know. Grew up past 40 years transitioning through very "tubey" sounding solid state Mosfet designs with dual mono torroids and really enjoyed those too. Then, on to tubes. Have great appreciation for those blending both together. Noting you’ve owned CODA and the Rocket88, both with their own signature sounds, do you feel your ZOTL leans more to SS than tube amp sound then? If you could change the sound a bit more with your ZOTL, what would it be - if anything? |
If tube amplification is an option, my suggestion would be Linear Tube Audio. I am using a ZOTL 10 amp with the MZ3 preamp on Spatial Audio M4 Triode Master speakers. The speakers are rated at 93db and average 12 ohms. These are open baffle speakers and are probably getting around 8 watts from the ZOTL 10 amp. This amp can drive me out of the room if I cranked it up, so it has plenty of power for normal listening levels. I believe the amp puts out 12 watts at 4 ohms.
These amps are very different from a normal tube amp with normal transformers. They have a frequency response that goes down to 6 hz at -0.5 db which gives you the bass response of a ss amp. They have no massive transformers and the tubes run at much lower amperage than a normal tube amp. The tubes are supposed to last between 10-20 years and the heat generated is less than a normal tube amp or a Class A ss amp in my experience. LTA amps and preamps are dead quiet with no hiss at all. I went from using a Cary Rocket 88 tube amp to a CODA 10.5R ss amp (100 watt, 25 watt Class A) to my current LTA system. LTA describes their sound as tube tone with solid state detail which I think is very accurate.
They have a two week trial period and will take back the amp for any reason and will cover the return shipping. The ZOTL 10 power amp is $3,200 and they have a Z 10 Integrated amp for $4,900. |
@decooney - I am very impressed by the sound, very good soundstage with beautiful decaying of instruments, I did not expect so much right away as I am using the pre out of my old intergraded amp, but I can live with this sound happily until I get a tube pre.
I think it sounds neutral, the bass is very good, very live, the treble sounds extended too me, but the midrange is just wow, very good tonally and at the same time very clear.
My hybrid amp gave some more atmosphere, like being in a small nightclub listening to Grant Green, but when I get my tube pre I expect that to come back, the SA-30 has much better resolution than my hybrid, that’s for sure.
The amp design looks real quality, very thick front, back and top plate, nothing ringing when you knock them, only tender knuckles ;-)
A very faint hum can be heard if one puts the ear close to the amp, but the speakers are dead quiet with full output on the pre.
It does get very warm though, so good ventilation is important. |
If u decide to stay tube, give a Line Magnetic 518ia consideration. SET, 22wpc, but very capable watts. 4/8/16 ohms taps available. A little hum, yes.....but gloriously musical. Best of luck in ur search.
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Sugden also very good but more $ in the US compared to UK so value for money might become relative issue.
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Luxman 550 states. Only 20w but tannoys 94db and I barely get to 10 o clock on volume dial before it becomes too loud. They say it goes to AB under demand but not seen anything in writing. Beautifully built and I see know why you see 30year old luxman up for sale still at good prices. |
I was in your boat last week... Went from separate pre and class a mono into tannoy arden (new legacy) and wanted to simplify. Got an ex demo luxman 550ax2 for £3k about $3700 looked as new and it beats my more expensive setup in every regard. Effortless layered and a wicked MM MC stage built in to boot.
I've had linn magik dsm in the past... I'm not a fan of their amplification... Detailed but. Leaves me cold.
If the 550 this good makes me wonder what the 590 does. I always sniffed at intergrated but there is a Synergy there difficult to beat.
Only problem going to one box is being left with phono stage, interconnects and an excess of kimber power leads.... |
That is a sweet look!
When was the last one manufactured?
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Smooth Class A, try the Belles SA-30, I just got one and it is sounding wonderful |
I have been counselled to avoid the Krell brand due to breakdown
issues. I am intolerant of anything needing regular repairs.
Life's is too short.
That said several people have suggested Krell in this thread.
So it must have good SQ. But the repair question is offputting. |
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Lowt,
So if I keep my mid-line interconnects, cables and power lines
I will likely be okay with SS then.
Who do you consider to have an opinion of real value?
I want gear that is:
1. Under 5 years of age. Preferably 0-2 years.
2. No defunct companies. No time to chase parts.
3. Products that have had universally good reviews
4. Products I can try out in my home before owning.
5. Most importantly-that they have a highly involving sound.
6. Then there is that darn budget thing-$5k max.
Thanks
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Chorus, I used to like my SS amps a lot but when I moved up to very revealing cables, my SS amps do not sound like music as much as my tube amps which are 300b, EL34 and KT66 based. The Threshold SA line and “T” series are truly wonderful sounding SS amplifiers and awesome in every way. The long history of online comments on these amps speak for themselves. But ultimately, it’s which amp sounds best in your system. BTW, I’m sorta bias in that I’ve experience quite a bit of components that were very expensive and did not live up to a high standard. I like to stick with what has been proven and tested by many many to be top performers.
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Well as long as you have opened the door to a tube integrated, you might want to check out the Raven Audio Nighthawk MK3 if you can live with 20 tube watts per channel https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/nighthawk-mk3-tube-amplifier/People seem to think they are very good in the $3k range. Made in the USA if that matters and from what I have read a great company to deal with. I have not heard this integrated, just watched the show footages. |
Joel,
Thanks for the contact info.
I could not find a website for Clayton when I checked.
I had hoped to hear about some good options and certainly
have. Thank you to all for contributing to this thread.
I know nothing of the Omtec brand but it sounds interesting.
Can you pm me some info?
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Audioguy,
I did try the Masterclass IA4 by Sugden last week.
It was fine but not anything exciting to listen to.
Odd as I had higher expectations for it. |
Lowtubes,
I must admit this thread has done more to my considerations than
I had expected. Particularly as to whether I will find the SS route a
mistake. Threshold is Pass's first company's Class A Amp. Is this not
"edgy" as the XA25?
I like the extra dynamics and bass of the SS Pass but it does burn
a little bit on the top end over time. I adjusted my Tannoy treble settings
downward to help this. |
Wilson Shen, claytonamp@aol.com I have dealt with him several times.
l find it hard to believe he is no longer in business. I am using a Clayton S-40, 2 pairs of M-100 monos, and 1 pair of M-300’s.
Super Performers. My favorite system features Avantgarde Trios with Class A mono blocks custom built by David Berning. These are OTL tube beauties which put out something like 10 or 15 watts each. I have 2 pairs of Omtec CA-25 mono blocks, built in Germany by Manfred Baier. About 30 watts per block, class A solid state. They are available for a song if you are interested, as I am near the end of my life. Some advice, seek out the individual designers with small dealer networks, and work one on one with them. This is the heart of our hobby, individuals. It is where the fun is. We all go defunct at times, and usually we rise from the ashes. Good luck. Joel
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If you can find a great price on a used Krell Duo 300 XD I’d grab it in a heartbeat. You cannot do any better in Class A than the latest generation of these Krell amps. Luscious, syrupy sound, Beautiful sound staging and the famous dynamic punch at the low end Krell is so famous for.
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Hello, tricky question you presented. After listening to tubes on your Tannoy’s, you might find SS to be a bit edgy and not as smooth and refined. Well, if that the direction you want to go in, SS will be faster and have better dynamics and more control over the music but I definitely do not feel you will stay happy over the long haul with SS when your speakers work well with tube amps. I’ve been in this hobby for 30yrs and and a lot of amps. Tube and SS. I see some good recommendations suggested here by some audiophiles. Put my suggestions also on your list. Threshold older SA series and T series SS. Good luck. |
Have you thought about thie Sugden class A amps? In particular the signature A21se? It goes well with my tannoys, and considering you are not listening loudly, it could be a very good choice for a reasonable outlay, only $3250. It is all analog with 5 line inputs plus a fixed tape out, and a variable pre out. Other than that just a simple remote. It is all I require and has a very nice tube like sound signature. 30 watts into 8 ohms, and 40 watts into 4 ohms. It does get hot during use but that does not present any issues for me. It has a beefed up power supply to achieve the above power output. My tannoys are 90 db efficient and seem to pair very nicely with the Sugden.at only 9 or 10 o’clock. I’m getting a very decent volume in my room which Is about 16 x 14, but also open to another area or space. The Sugden company has been around for a very long time and are based in the UK, Scotland, same as tannoy, and Linn. |
Save your money and buy a modern Class D. The Benchmark AHB2 is the one to beat. Even the run-of-the-mill Hypex models will blow away nearly any Class A. I know, I'll catch a lot of flak for this post, but just give a listen.
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Krell XD. We can debate whether it's true class A but the sound is really special. Dynamics, bass slam and all at the same time not harsh or fatiguing. Make sure you hear Krell XD ; ). |
Aforementioned Luxman and Accuphase are really really good.
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So, I'll add my $0.02, even though this discussion is already pretty long. I am extremely happy with the Schiit Aegir. It is a champ of an amp (TM) and ridiculously low in cost. Class A, resolving, neutral, and with good power/drive. As a bonus, it has a switch on the front to de-bias the output in a standby mode. It can operate in stereo (single-ended only), or like I'm going to do soon, in mono (balanced only) for roughly double the power output. |
Krells New 300 integrated amp is
Superb ,Their sliding Bias class A circuit is
very detailed warm,Big soundstaging
and depth with Plenty of power .
$7k retail can get a bit lower ,and made in CT- U.S.A |
I'll chimes in for Luxman class A amps. I've owned a Luxman Class A integrated , I drove some Living Voice Avatar 2 speaker at 94db. Luxman is very well made (picture do not do their gear justice) and they have some interesting features that can be useful. I found their sound to be rather musical with no listener fatigue, Toe taping fun but yet very detailed top to bottom, but not dry lets say a nice touch of warmth but not over done. Over all very nice amps from my experience. I'd try to have a listen see if its something your interested in.
Only Pass Amps I have ever owned were some older Alfa O's, really older now I suppose, but they were quite nice as well if my memory serves.
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Deco,
Yes that is accurate and much better than my avatar, thank you.
They have a bi-wire option on the back.
No choices for different ohms there.
On the front face there is an option to operate the system
as a 2 1/2 way i/o the standard 3 way option.
If you run it as a 2 1/2 way, the impedance changes from 8 ohm to 4 ohm.
I do prefer to listen in the 4 ohm setting. The difference is the upper dual concentric speaker will roll off at the bottom of the mid range when in the Open-4 ohm-setting. When in the Closed -8 ohm-position the same upper mid-range speaker will go all the way down to the 40hz rated bottom. Unless I have this backwards which has been known to happen.
Another feature these speakers have-Three settings each
for the following items: Presence, Roll off, and Energy.
Gotta love the Brits! Level, -3db or -3db. I use the Level Setting.
I purchased these about 18 months ago.
I had the caps tested and replaced. One had blown.
Interior wiring upgrade. Plugged a too large compartment
connecting hole. Replaced metal tabs post connectors with stranded
copper wire.
I have had the pleasure of speaking with Kent English at Pass.
Kent has a few larger speakers on dollies. He said that in the Pass
line he felt the XA25 was the best match for my speakers. Over the 250.8 to be precise. It seems Mr. Pass has worked for magic on this product.
Since this purchase is significant to me I want to do my homework.
Thank you for your help with this.
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Chorus, Okay. Looking over some old notes and references. Interesting, and a completely different direction from low watt. "High Current Amplifier" with proper drive for the FSMs. SET or tube amps with fleawatt grunt isn’t going to cut it on those. >>The bass driver units require some current to work effectively and sound right<< Get this, I even found a few instances up to 250w-300w Threshold Monoblocks or high current Accuphase amps being used with FSMs. For testing old used lower cost amps, got any friends around with a recapped/restored Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis amp or Threshold lying around? Or, closer to new, it woud take a few grand more over your budget, there is a Pass INT-250 in Peoria AZ, closer to you - listed right here on Agon. Bet this would do it. Good luck :) https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa1b8d-pass-labs-int-250-solid-state?refsource=hifishark |
cakyol,
In March I had the Pass XA25 in my system for 2 weeks running
continuously. It never become too warm to keep a hand on.
My tube amp put off 10 times the heat it seems.
I live in Phoenix Arizona. We know something about heat.
Pass has said they seldom see a repair issue on their gear.
Further they say that their caps are still good after 20 years.
That is a pretty solid reason to own a Pass.
They are in a state next door to AZ. Another plus.
Finally the XA25 has been marketed for 4 years now. Pass's biggest selling item. Check the Shark resale market right now. Hello New Zealand!! Price has not been raised since the inception $4,900.
As Stan used to say 'Nuff Said' |
Pass is the best. Long term reliability with class A heat can be a problem. Pass uses excellent components which achieve 15 to 20 years of trouble free operation. Heat becomes a very important factor with class A. Check the warranties. |
@chorus , Are these an accurate photo of your FSM speakers? http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/3/38319/fsm.com.jpegAre you using the 16ohm tap on your speakers when testing? With FSMs, (I'm not a Tannoy expert - at all) but It's appears (as you are) worth doing more in-depth research on these before buying any amplifier(s). These speakers you have can be a bit picky. While they seem efficient, doing some quick checking on my end there are repeated suggestions about some struggling with inadequate tube amps to drive these properly, and a few caving in to use "transistors based amps" to get the best out of them. Interesting. Digging some more, now I can see a bit more what brought you to Pass., and why you are reaching out for suggestions. There are more than a few that have matched up the XA-25 in this case. I'd call and talk to Wayne at Pass and again his perspective, first. Then, if you look at any tube amps again, I would look for musical 50w amps before low watt SET, but that's just me reading about your speakers some. More poking around with the Tannoy crew will help . |
Deco,
The Class A wait is downside. Advantage smaller amp.
Leave it on unless you will be gone an extended time.
I have been advised the 6SN7 preamp tube is the way to go
if you buy any Amp. Love that Supratek line.
I am not opposed to a tube preamp.
I had a tube preamp- the Audible Illusions L3B.
Sold it as no preamp sounded better than a preamp
but that is another kettle o'fish.
Nelson advised me once that
"If you have to have a tube then consider"....
I imagine his counterpart Wayne is making that call.
Your direction is very helpful, thank you. My speakers
allow for treble presence and treble energy adjustments
so I think I may dodge the fatigue factor. But maybe not.
The thing missing with the Cary is the resolution I hear
with the small Class A monos I have now.
What brand/model of tube amps do you think might be
a match? Not the Cary 120 apparently. High power not
a true need for me. Low power seems to be the more
musical of the two. Odd that NP's cheapest lowest
powered amp is the most musical in his line.
Perhaps he is working on a 12.5 wpc version now.
I have heard the Line Magnetic line and liked them.
Not in the VAC price range but they seem great.
Your suggestions? Thank you.
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chorus OP15 posts04-01-2020 12:15am
Cooney,
I had Golden Lion KT88s.
The Leben 300 I just demoed was a step up from the Cary.
I am most likely going with the Pass Int25. No tubes anywhere.
The whole point I am making is the Pass House Sound
is better than ANYTHING I have tried to date.
And by a significant margin.
I am open to being persuaded but please before suggesting anything, please have heard the Pass 25 Amp or Int.
and then tell me what you liked better. Thanks Not into persuading in this case - now reading back over your initial requirements and referring back to a $5k used budget, but can tell you hands down, if your only reference was a CAD-120S with KT88s, there is a lot more ground to cover and that’s one of my least favorite amps in the whole lineup, of all amps made by Cary Audio. That’s a different beast, less about finesse IMHO. Live in Pass Land since the early 70s. Was a SS guy for 40+ years. Started at the same speaker factory too. Heard most of the important amps, way back to modded Threshold, .5 and .8 Pass amps again recently, and now FW forward. Honestly, it just comes down to what sounds best with your speakers for your ears - only you will know that. If you are convinced about SS, it’s a moot point. Of the lot, like the lower power XA-25 as you already noted. Yes, that Leben is neat too. Good choice for SS with the XA-25 amp with a good 6SN7 based tube preamp brings it to another level. Once again, "tube", not where you are going. Talked with Nelson about this hybrid combo a few times before, many customers doing that. Have a few friends who ran this same combo with similar speakers throughout 2019, and while we all liked it, all three of the group went back to higher power tube amps or more local tube mono amps in 2020, but once again - all speaker, room, and hearing preference. I still find even the best SS fatiguing for long listening sessions, we all hear differently I guess. Read up on on it, PASS truly takes 4-24hrs to truly warm up and sound right, some leave them on 24x7. My tube monos warm in 45-60 minutes, don't run hot, and sound amazing but won't suggest that. Best of luck on the SS adventure. |
Since you are open to used, have you considered older generations of Pass amps?
I have read that each generation does sound a somewhat different.
I have an original Aleph 3, and it is so sweet.
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Well I think you will still have the mini blast furnace affect with the class A XA25. That's the thing about class A. People have often commented about the heat they think our amps make, but compared to a true class A solid state amp of the same power, the heat is almost identical. The class of operation makes far more difference than whether the amp is tube or solid state! But, if you want linearity in the output section, class A is the way to go no ifs ands or buts. High end audio is all about getting the recording to play back as if the music is *real*; hence class A amplifiers. |
Clayton Audio still sells, fixes and upgrades gear. Just had my amp upgraded. Great amps.
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@chorus Willing to give up the hum chasing, tube testing, blast furnace of the tube world for now.
Well I think you will still have the mini blast furnace affect with the class A XA25. |
Cooney,
I had Golden Lion KT88s.
The Leben 300 I just demoed was a step up from the Cary.
I am most likely going with the Pass Int25. No tubes anywhere.
The whole point I am making is the Pass House Sound
is better than ANYTHING I have tried to date.
And by a significant margin.
I am open to being persuaded but please before suggesting anything, please have heard the Pass 25 Amp or Int.
and then tell me what you liked better. Thanks |
chorus,
Reason I asked is the 120S with KT120s, stock input tubes, and stock caps is kind of a dry sounding amp (imo) in comparison to others I've owned, demo'd, heard several from Cary and Inspire. The Pass amps, even with a good tube preamp have their own house sound. Low-watt triode is a different chase, and the right speaker matching is the key there too.
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Some excellent thoughts here, thank you.
Atmasphere, if tubes were an option, would work.
I rule out defunct companies BEL, Clayton etc as risky investments.
Bakoon looks like a good company to follow in the future.
When makers or reviewers do not give the 4 and 2 ohm wpc,
the amp is likely none too stout.
Class A is compelling.
That said A/B has advantages.
Naim and Linn are cults in some countries.
What was wrong with Cary? Sonically nothing.
I heard the resolution from a $300 class A 7 wpc
kit amp and knew I wanted more. Willing to give up
the hum chasing, tube testing, blast furnace of the
tube world for now.
I tend to agree with Mr. Savato. Once you go Pass,
you never go back.
I had thought that there must be another S.S. amp maker
who would copy the Pass house sound but apparently
"Nobody Does it Better".
Still I am overturning rocks in pursuit of the thrown bone. |
