Demise of bass quality in Main speakers

I find that a pair of 25 Hz quarter wave folded corner horns driven by good quality 15 inch woofers serve my modest needs for bass.  These handsome teak veneered Bill Fitzmaurice designed subs have an output at 25 Hz that is identical to the 1 kHz reference tone in my DEQX DSP equalized and controlled system.  The only possible downside is that they are 18 cubic feet each.  Horn bass is the best bass.

@dmbwire 

Maybe bass from your main speakers was enhanced by the subs.  I contend main speakers often struggle with bass Quality due to smaller drivers and cabinets. Subwoofers are now being used to correct all this.

Your initial comment about fullness at lower end are what subwoofers are all about and the new subwoofers tend to lack fullness because they also have smaller driver sizes.

I’m of the opinion that sub(s) should not be audible themselves in the room rather they mesh with the mains to create a single sound. The reason I added a REL to my system was a search for increased fullness in the music. The primary benefit I actually received, and was not expecting, was how great my system now sounds at low / lower listening levels. My ears thank me everyday.

OP I think I agree with some of your points, but also feel lost on what you're trying to get to reading your first and last post. Marketing wise someone could probably write a 100 page dissertation,  but I think bass performance boils down to cabinet size and competing at a price point. I've tried to give away great speakers and they've been vetoed because of being too big - even lil floorstanders with dual 8's. 

I agree it's not rocket science. I have some great speakers that can do bass solid for most music. Frankly I'm blown away by them for price and performance and that's why they're keepers. For true 20 Hz and below performance I needed to add a sub. It's pretty tough to compete with a good sub for that last bit of low extension with the dedicated high power amplification and cabinet size. I prefer to cross at about 30 Hz with my mains having solid performance down to there though I understand the 80 Hz method.

I have had some pretty big speakers that had stupendous bass, but I couldn't control it in my room. This is the other advantage of subwoofers though you could also use DSP etc to tame powerful speakers.  As someone else stated multiple subwoofers can be used for room issues to get ideal bass response throughout. I will be going to 2 subs when I can fit them, but have heard of many going to 4 for most even response. 

I love 2 channel, but a lot of the "full range" speakers I would love to have at my price range and far beyond that don't dig down to 20 Hz or below. I listed some very expensive speakers that do go below 20 Hz on another site and was chastised as being a snob for providing them as good examples. I think it's all about building the best system you can afford in your space for your tastes,  but it sometimes seems to get way overcomplicated. 

Lots of really Great answers throughout.

My overall impression from comments above is that subwoofers are being marketed and used inappropriately in many situations to solve bass driver Quality issues.  Subwoofers are not intended for this purpose. They are supposed to deal with sound ranging below 80 hz, which generally is not as detailed as sound waves above this.

It's not rocket science.

@james633 Wrote:

the 15” is so much more textured and detailed than the speaker with 8” and also more detailed and textured than the subs. The large driver barley moves and is just better. No replacement for displacement.  

I couldn't agree more. I own speakers with dual 15” bass drivers. The bass is effortless and organic like a live event, the bass just flows over you with very, very low distortion, The low midrange and woofer are so well integrated the speakers are coherent from top to bottom. I find small bass drivers to have a forced unnatural sound. The speakers are actively bi-amped (JBL 4435's). 😎

Mike

Remember Hofmann's Iron Law: Article

@akg_ca wrote:

Ignoring the basic physics that a larger driver can go deeper, quality crisp bass slam and dynamics in bass reproduction has minimal to do with driver size. Rather it’s about the speed of the driver.

A larger driver in itself doesn’t go deeper; it’s still bound by the relation between cone size and enclosure volume, meaning - all things being equal - the larger unit needs a proportionately larger internal air volume just to maintain extension. How it actually sounds compared to its smaller iteration is another matter and one that may lead one to believe it goes/measures deeper, when in fact it may not.

Also of importance is comparing the sonic outcome of several smaller woofers whose summed air radiation area equals that of a single larger ditto. To my ears well-implemented large woofers always sound more naturally layered, tuneful and natural compared to a bunch a smaller units.

Interestingly a duo or even quartet of 15" woofers, per channel, don’t go into the multiple smaller woofers territory of poorer bass imprinting, but rather gets even better vs. a single 15" woofer. Indeed, a quartet of well-implemented pro 15" woofers in a star config. - again, per channel - acting only from the midbass on up, high-passed and augmented down low with fitting subs, is a sonic treat that in its sheer effortless, enveloping and textured presentation simply bowls over any (much) smaller, typical hifi variation. Front horn-load a single suitable 15" woofer in a fittingly large 1/4 wave horn with a non-truncated mouth opening will equate a quartet of direct radiating 15" woofers in efficiency and effective air radiation area, while likely winning out in bass snap, smoothness and clarity.

Until you foray into top quality build and more expensive speakers, the truth of the matter is that many larger size in- cabinet woofers have fully earned a bad reputation. They usually suck ….many of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control (that become untenable at louder volumes) with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck. Ergo, listener fatigue.

This isn’t a factor of driver size per se, but rather throwing the woofers in paper thin-walled enclosures, bad port tuning (where they’re ported), crappy drivers, etc. Any driver size can be affected here, but the larger ones may be more exposed in bigger enclosures that throw structural integrity by the wayside if not properly scaled up wrt. stability.

sure …there is a limited cohort of bass headbangers out there with predominantly “party speakers” with this inflated boomy and muddy bass, with anything but a flat(ter) speaker response curve…. that seem to be either agnostic or immune to these warts.

Re: my paragraph above on the benefits of (well-implemented) big displacement area I’m sure many an audiophile will dismiss such solutions as being ridiculous in home environments. What’s the saying here: what works sonically with an open mind, or what adheres to hifi dogma?

The deeper bass can instead be dealt with by a quality build powered subwoofer.

The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwoofer to your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up.

That is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass.

They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls. And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier.

Fully agree.

The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits.

It’s not a problem if your setup is actively configured to begin with; it’s simply about applying a high-pass filter not set too low (i.e.: preferably from ~80Hz on up), and treat the whole of the speaker setup, incl. separately housed subs, as one speaker system per channel.

@james633 --

+1

All things being equal in quality (power to weight and linear throw) bigger is always better for woofers if your room supports low bass. 

I own a speaker with duel 8” drivers and one with a single 15” woofer. I also own 2 12” subs. The speaker are of equal quality of build and the larger speaker is 33% more money. 
 

the 15” is so much more textured and detailed than the speaker with 8” and also more detailed and textured than the subs. The large driver barley moves and is just better. No replacement for displacement.  

I think the availability of high quality, reasonable cost powered subwoofers has a significant effect...

@mofojo 

Thank you!   Yes B&W.  G*d knows why I said KEF.  Must be my age?

@clearthinker ,

Are you referring to B&W 801 and 802? 

Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact

See article below:

Mike

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm

@ghdprentice     You are certainly correct in saying that bass speaker engineering has improved greatly in the last 20 or 30 years.  But that would be a reason for building larger bass speakers, not smaller.

In principle, leaving aside engineering issues, a big unit will deliver more bass than a smaller one.  This is why in earlier times 12 inch units were commonplace although as you say 'boomy' - read 'distorted'.

But there are engineering reasons why two smaller bass drivers work better than one big one.  I bought KEF 801s when they were launched.  These had a single bass driver of 15 inches.  But a few years after KEF launched the 802 with two 12 inch units and not so long after that they discontinued the 801.

As you say, to obtain quality bass you need high driver throw, speed and accuracy.  This is mainly achieved by minimising the mass of the cone and other moving parts whilst maximising its stiffness.  This latter is crucial as flexure will create distortion,  It is axiomatic that, all other things being equal, this is more easily achieved in a smaller diameter unit.  Indeed I suspect the flexure of the cone increases as the square of its diameter.

By the way, you say your 8 inch units 'go down' to 24Hz.  But what is the output down there relative to the mid-range?  I'll warrant it's at least 10dB down.

I have had Avangarde Duos since 2006-7, and only I after I added a pair of 15 inch subs, with DSP, changed to a big Koetso stone, and fully isolated the table with the biggest Minus K did I achieve bass that matched the quality of the midrange- horns runs straight from Lamm ML2s without a crossover.

To reproduce the bottom octave accurately and musically is expensive and can be difficult in a bad room. If it's an audio only system I would opt for a 12" or 15" sealed, self powered sub like an Hsu, ULS-15 MK2 Subwoofer and two is always better than one to even the bass out in the room. Anything smaller IMO is a bass module, not a true sub-woofer. 

My main Tower speakers have built in sub woofers and the speakers are 8 inches wide, and they also have gain control I also have two sub woofers with DSP I've used REW to dial everything in and I must say, the sound stage, inner detail, dynamics no matter what music I'm listening is absolutely captivating  From single female voice only to Daft Punk 

I have always felt that, ‘there is no replacement for displacement’ such that the larger the woofer, the better the bass. But I recently read an account by Roger Russell of McIntosh who, in consulting Rudy Bozak and others designed a two-piece speaker (McIntosh XRT-20) that included a 24-tweeter column and a dual 12” woofer (in a separate cabinet). Further experimentation led him to drop the woofer and stick with just the column of tweeters, focusing on the characteristics of the drivers and their ability, like pistons, to drive the bass. By careful arrangement in the column, he was able to produce magnificent bass without the use of a big (woofer) driver. He has a website that details his experiments, experiences, and the results. From what I see in the market, McIntosh has continued his contributions, and Tekton may have improved upon them.

My diamond 225's have incredible bass for their size. Even at just 6.5 inches, you can feel the bass. It has a bass port on the bottom that fires into a plinth. I don't currently use them, but they are so darn good, I will not sell them. 

@emergingsoul 

"I can see bookshelves needing subwoofers as bookshelves probably aren't known for their Great bass experiences."

You are correct that bookshelf speakers are more likely to benefit from the addition of subwoofers, but even if you have large tower speakers, rated at 20Hz-22kH, you can still have crappy low frequency sound quality if your listening room or your speaker placement are affecting the speakers ability to sound their best.

I can see bookshelves needing subwoofers as bookshelves probably aren't known for their Great bass experiences.

+1 @tony1954 

@emergingsoul 

"Omg, I can’t believe how people are rationalizing the use of subwoofers when their main speakers are not adequate to do a good job with bass."

I'm not sure why you have this opinion about poor bass and big woofers. 

The size of the woofer and the quality of its bass reproduction have little or nothing to do with each other. It really depends on what you want from a woofer. Large, poor quality woofers can produce flabby, boomy bass down to 20hz, while smaller woofers might produce tight, accurate bass down to only 35hz.

As to the idea of adding subwoofers. Adding subs isn't meant to correct your perceived deficiencies in the main speakers. They are meant to correct deficiencies in the listening room. I always laugh when I see people buying a pair of subs and proceeding to place them right beside their main speakers. This placement merely accentuates the low frequency issues you bought them to correct. Subs should be placed where they produce the most accurate and even bass response within the room. That may be in opposing corners, midway along opposite walls or even half way up a wall. 

You place your main speakers where they provide the best stereo imaging, the best soundstage and the best high frequencies. You add subs to improve the overall  low frequency response. This is why even people with enormous tower speakers add subs to systems.

My main speakers are ATC SCM19 bookshelves. I added four subs.

I didn't do this so I could get home theatre bass. I did it so I could get accurate,  lifelike bass.

@carlsbad2 

@akg_ca 

+1

Comparing good quality speakers from twenty or more years ago with 12” woofers and today’s typically with one or two 8” and thinking they are inadequate is too simple a comparison.

Woofer diameters have dropped as throw, speed, and accuracy has increased dramatically. Bass today is so much more detailed and articulated it is astonishing. The role of good quality speakers is to accurately reproduce sound. Old 12” woofers were boomy. My speakers have two 8” woofers and go down to 24hz. I have no desire to add subwoofers to my system, as a mater of fact I removed two 12” subs from my system when I got these speakers and my system sounds way better than it has ever before. Much more coherent across the audio spectrum and definitely with as good a bass as with the old speakers and subs.

@emergingsoul

My main speakers are Ohm F5 with 12" drivers. Retail is ~ $6K. I paid half that after discounts and trade ins.

In my other smaller room I have tiny KEF ls50 metas and a powered sub.

Both are well set up and do the job well.

What’s best? As usual, it all depends.

If you are on a budget and room is not large, KEF ls50 metas + sub(s) are a good way to go.

Larger rooms will almost always cost more to cover properly. You will want somewhat larger mains depending on how loud you need to go but other than that, the problem can be solved equally well either way.

IT just has to be done right no matter which approach is taken. That is always the case.

You make it clear, to get lots of clean bass out of FL/FR speakers is quite expensive.

It’s not only the size of the woofer, it is also about the excursion, and the power to control it OUT/IN/STOP.

I have 1 of these in my small home theater, self powered, it has a 1,000. watt amp with a serious magnet within. Enough to add Dinosaur Stomp.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/velodynehgs10.html

For music, to keep the Main FL and FR affordable, I would add a stereo pair of these or similar: front facing; no ports! Locate them adjacent to your front speakers, adjust the crossover and volume.

Low bass starts mono, but the overtones are directional, thus a stereo pair from location of mains.

Taking the low bass away from both the speakers and the stereo amp, lets you use a smaller/lighter/less costly amp, easier to locate for remote signals; AND you are setup to try tubes sometime, same advantages as just mentioned.

Removing the need to produce low bass from your main speakers lets them do a better job of upper bass: then the cones are not too small, the magnets are not too small, the drivers are no longer trying to do too much!

One of Fender's most popular bass cabinets in the 1970's when I played regularly had two 10" drivers which produced plenty of bass.   Now I get the argument that this would not be a direct comparison to high-fidelity speakers, and in particular these were made to fill a fair-size club with bass not a small room with precision sound, but you can have good bass with drivers that aren't 15".

The speakers I have are B&W 802 d3 and the subwoofer is B&W ASW2000.

This combination serves needs of tighter bass and fullness lower end base, without getting caught up in all the crossover issues. For home theater, I set the crossover to full for the main speakers and let them do their thing for the full range of their capability.  A great complement to the subwoofer.
 

I can agree somewhat to larger bass drivers in speakers should add the lower end without a sub but that’s not always the case. My room is smallish, 13 by 15  and my Wilson Watt/Puppies with twin 8” bass drivers can overload the room. When I switch to planar speakers, Quad 63’s or M L CLS’s, I then use a subwoofer with a 12” driver. It’s an older Velodyne but blends very well with planers in my room and fills in the low end just about perfectly. And as others have said, your going to pay big for larger integrated woofers into a speaker, no way around it, larger woofer, larger cabinets, more crossover components. I guess I’m lucky that I don’t have a huge room to fill with sound and don’t really have the need for larger woofers. I would think the OP’s Wilson Sophia’s would have adequate bass slam as most Wilson’s have it in abundance.

Wilson Alexia V has great bass drivers!

the new Sonus Faber Amati G5 as well

I mean you can get good stuff. You just can’t be a cheap man.

why? Well it’s hard blending good bass drivers and making the cabinet out of materials that don’t resonate. It’s expensive and you need better crossover parts so you won’t have phase or timing issues. The old days of stuffing big drivers in a box are gone and now the sound quality is way better.

pony up more cash and save 

I think the quality of the bass (as previously mentioned) depends on the level of speaker you buy but mostly the room. 

@emergingsoul i am not sure which speakers you are listening to, but the size of the drivers are not everything, and the larger the driver the harder it is to drive and control. You can achieve higher degree of control and make the speaker more acceptable to larger range of electronics by using things like iso baric set ups, downfiring woofer, etc.

Maybe it would be better if you mention a few examples and we can discuss those specific examples with contrasting solutions?

I experimented with Rel subwoofers. Purchased two Carbon Specials to pair with my B&W 802 D2 speakers and my Gryphon Diablo 300 amp. Bought the upgraded hi-level “Blueline” cables too. I know many, many trusted audiophiles love these subs and they can work well. But my experience was different. What I found was:

1) While the bass was excellent it didn’t provide the effect that was expecting. I was expecting a bigger richer sound, which is not what I got. I expected bass guitar solos to stand out more and be more like a live experience.  The frequencies that were boosted (when crossover and level were adjusted correctly) were lower than what would have made the sound richer.  So yes you could feel the bass more, but the notes weren’t bigger or richer in any way (which in retrospect may not have been a good thing anyways) And,

2) While I can see how people say subs can improve the mids (they did in some ways), I couldn’t get the subs adjusted such that the vocals were perfectly focused.

My crossovers were set at 3 clicks and the level set at 5 clicks at the best sounding setting I could find (I tried everything). And I tried everything I possibly could with positioning. Some positions were better but I just couldn’t get vocals to snap into place and be natural. I had marks on the floor and I was at the point of making less than 1cm adjustments to the position or toe-in.

I spent the entire month trying to get things right, and failed. Returned them within my 30 day window and used the funds to go down the digital rabbit hole, which I’m entirely enjoying (see my MU1 thread). Never looked back and am somewhat relieved as my system just looks better too without the two subs on the outsides of my speakers.

Two things could have been a factor in the subs not working out: my room, and also my system is extremely revealing. This isn’t a good thing for all folks and can be a double edged sword. I can make the slightest adjustments and the effects are blatantly obvious to anyone. So things can be far more difficult to set up for me to ensure everything is right. But I simply couldn’t get there with the Rel’s, despite the fact that I know they make exceptional subs.

I’m now not even concerned with bass, although I could use some more in my large room.  Just not missing it though.

There are advantages to having the low frequencies reproduced by multiple subwoofers. Using the appropriate processing and placement they can cancel room modes, providing a tighter and more accurate bass response over a larger listening area.  I have found that off-loading the low frequencies a multi-sub system can improve both the frequency and transient response, particularly in rooms with strong modal energy.

Omg, I can’t believe how people are rationalizing the use of subwoofers when their main speakers are not adequate to do a good job with bass.

Removing bass frequencies from the main speakers to allow them to perform better buy shifting burden over to subwoofers is crazy talk.

It just means the main speakers are not doing what they should be doing.

Maybe the Tweeter, mid range, and the various bass drivers should all have their separate cabinets, kind of like what Wilson does. And then maybe with all these individual cabinets we can better place them throughout the room. And go absolutely nutty in the process.

All this because bass drivers are getting smaller and somehow like frogs in warming water no one seems to notice how main speakers are becoming more and more inadequate to do what they need to do.

We want more bass and maybe the Recording just doesn’t have it to offer so we attempt to embellish it. From time to time certain recordings, moreso from the more recent recordings have all kinds of bass emphasis inserted into the music by sound engineers.

So like everything else in this world the consumer no longer is in control, with a good example being the decline Of main speaker bass quality. Of course you can solve this problem by paying a ton of money but you shouldn’t have to.

@jumia thanks. I guess that is some kind of accomplishment? 🤔

In any case, I made some very significant upgrades to my streaming setup this weekend so that’s some form of real progress. Pure coincidence!

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/shootout-roon-versus-plex-qobuz-versus-tidal-who-won

@mapman

Congrats on reaching 21,000. Probably the most on this forum

It’s way more practical and cost effective these days to just add powered subwoofers to extend bass when needed. Plus there are still plenty of bigger speakers with bigger bass drivers around when desired. Good ones will just cost a bit more which makes sense

Also having a separate cabinet that is also adjustable makes it much easier to get better bass in practice. Placement options for large heavy speakers in a single cabinet are often limited for most folks.

The old adage of the bigger the woofer the more air it can move still holds true to a certain degree, but many other factors impact the quality and depth of the bass. I'm amazed at the bass speakers now have with much smaller woofers!

+1 @carlsbad2

Ignoring the basic physics that a larger driver can go deeper, quality crisp bass slam and dynamics in bass reproduction has minimal to do with driver size. Rather it’s about the speed of the driver.

Until you foray into top quality build and more expensive speakers, the truth of the matter is that many larger size in- cabinet woofers have fully earned a bad reputation. They usually suck ….many of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control (that become untenable at louder volumes) with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck. Ergo, listener fatigue.

sure …there is a limited cohort of bass headbangers out there with predominantly “party speakers” with this inflated boomy and muddy bass, with anything but a flat(ter) speaker response curve…. that seem to be either agnostic or immune to these warts.

The deeper bass can instead be dealt with by a quality build powered subwoofer.

The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwoofer to your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up.

That is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass.

They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls. And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier.

The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits.

Disagree.  

There are a bunch of speakers with inadequate bass drivers.  This is driven by the desire of many people for smaller speakers which I think is really just trying to make the wife happy.    I reject these speakers without even listening to them.

There are still plenty of speakers with full range bass.  

Now many people think normal bass is deficient bass because clubs, cars, etc turn up bass so much they get used to more bass than is on the recording.  I'm ok with this, not criticizing, just think they should recognize what they like.

Jerry