I'm looking to run a dedicated 30a and dedicated 20a line to my system directly from the fuse box. I currently have some florescent lights and some other junk on the line so I'm hoping it will be an improvement. Things sounds like they are straining somewhat when you crank things up. The amp will go on the 30a line and the digital stuff on the 20a. Anyone done this and saw improvements?
Hmm maybe I will stock with single line. I guess other issue with 2 is it's a real bear to run these. I am in basement and where the fuse box is there is no basement under it (concrete). We figured out a way to run it but it is tight and the 2 lines would need to be close together for most of the run, maybe inducing noise? I'll ask my electrician what the local code is about the outlet. If I can use a 20a outlet on a 30a line I will do that. If not I will stick with 20a.
Do a search on line for this article by Vince Galbo: How to Wire Your House for Good Power -MLB Technology. It has all the answers and explanations you are looking for. It’s very good.
High current 120 VAC equipment exists to service the RV industry among others. Here is a 30A outlet and there are 50A outlets as well if you want to overkill the overkill. An audiophools' imagination is a wonderful thing.
I think this is the first time I’ve responded to someone on audiogon. But after reading what you want to do I thought I should pass on my experience.
I have had two dedicated supplies for my hi-fi and TV for about 10 years. it will make very noticeable difference, but only if you are aware of aspects that can degrade sound quality for various reasons.
over the years I’ve made many slight adjustments to make improvements, but mainly to isolate the two circuits better. Because the biggest problem you will have is if you have two separate circuits supplying your hi-fi, but your equipment is linked together, thus creating a bridge between the circuits through your equipment earthing and neutral cables.
I’m not sure what country you live, but here in the UK ring main circuits (sockets) are only switched by the live cable, the neutral (black wire) remains unswitched all the way back to the fuse board.
So straightaway you have to be careful because in certain circumstances you can create a voltage potential between the two circuits, if one fuse is off but the other is still on. This is because if the neutral cable of one circuit is somehow connected through your equipment to the other circuit the neutral cable isn’t isolated. Sometimes this can also happen through the Earth cable if there is a connection between neutral and earth through electronics. That situation is rare but it is possible, just wanted you to be aware as it is dangerous, or could damage your equipment over time if happens.
Anyway, the main problem I experienced is a link between the two circuits through earthing. This can occur in many different places unfortunately, and it takes a lot of consideration to be aware of them all.
So being aware that I have already written far too much and convoluted the point I’m trying to make, sorry, I will get to the point.
I have made great strides in improving sound quality, mainly by isolating the circuit for my hi-fi from everything else earth wise. Although the sound quality was good, it always had the typical higher tone associated with digital audio.
So I would highly recommend not to have your hi-fi spread over two different circuits. If you do try to consider in as much detail as possible all the possible ways that interference can be transferred through earthing of power cables, Ethernet cables, equipment casing, power supplies... between the equipment plugged into the two different circuits. as you probably know some equipment can be a bigger source of unnecessary interference than others, computers...
sometimes also it is good to unplug everything to completely isolate it from the power, because like I said neutral and earth cables in the UK at least are not isolated when you switch off the socket. With this in mind it is possible for electrical interference to build up in areas of electrical equipment, so properly isolating them occasionally allows it to dissipate.
So, sorry for the long and convoluted reply, I just thought I should pass on my experience. Like I said you will notice a difference, but how much depends on how well isolated your circuit is from spreading interference across from other circuits through earth connection of various cables...
One dedicated 20 amp line is more than enough. In my setup installing an audiophile quality circuit breaker had a bigger impact on SQ than the dedicated line itself.
Regular circuit breakers do bad things to the sound, so check out the audiophile one from Gigawatt. For 75 Euro, it's one of the better audio bargains I have purchased.
If you are going to get the Parasound HCA-3500 you will need two power cords since it has two 15-amp fused IEC inlets. So you must run two 20-amp circuits just for that.
If you are going to get the Fidelity KW500, that has a 20-amp IEC inlet. For this kind of power draw, get the amp switched to operate on 240VAC so that a standard 20-amp circuit (#10 or #12 wire) is more than twice the current carrying capacity. Install a two-pole 20-amp breaker and run it to this to plug it in: https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-HBL5461R-Single-Receptacle-Industrial/dp/B00N8ZG8NC
Then one more 20-amp circuit for the rest of the stuff.
That’s the breaker but what do you put in the wall as a receptacle? The only one I’ve ever seen is the style fits 240 V like a dryer plug. I’ve never seen one that would be like a single pole receptacle like you normally have in your wall. Does anybody make an amp that needs to hook up to a dryer receptacle?
Can anybody out there explain to me why you would use 10 gauge wire to run a 20 amp circuit? I was told by my electricians through the years that the national electrical code basically builds in a safety factor of 25% through all of their rules. So going with 10 gauge wire for a 20 amp circuit is even more overkill and basically a waste.
Lowrider 57, I don’t think a 30 amp single pole outlet even exists. I thought 20 amp was as high as they went. I’m no electrician but I’ve been in construction for 35 years and I can’t say I’ve ever seen a 30 amp single pole outlet. There may very well be I googled it and I couldn’t find a picture one. Are there any amps out there that run on 240 voltage, not counting the ones that are designed for European use. If anybody can’t show me this 30 amp Outlet I’d love to see it. Thanks
With all the electrical threads containing valuable knowledge by experts such as jea48 and Almarg, why are there now so many recommendations for a 30A circuit to power an audio system? Plus 30 amps requires a dual-pole breaker. That means the dedicated line is tapped into both both legs.
An electrician ran one 30A and 2 20A lines to my equipment room.... Yes, I noticed a difference.
Get the 30A line and plug your multiple outlet power conditioner(if you want one) into it. Or plug one of your amps into it and another into the 20A line. But you really only want to plug your amps into the dedicated outlets and keep your digital components in a different duplex. So, you might want more dedicated lines.
If you need a multiple outlet power conditioner, look into P.I. Audio's UberBuss. I have a home theater system so I incorporated a DigiBuss for my digital components into it. And their modified receptacles.
Triode Wire Labs makes great power cables as well.
Think about it. An audio system is not going to draw 30 amps. An arc welder may but not your audio system. The bigger the circuit breaker, the more amp draw required to trip it. Do you really want your system to draw 30 amps prior to tripping the breaker? I also agree with @audition_audio, the Cruze First outlet is a steal.
2 dedicated 20 amp lines with 2 breakers directly to audio equipment in their own conduit. Add an audioquest Edison nrg duplex receptacle and you are golden. We use conduit hard pipe (emt) in Chicago. I make sure the only wires in the pipe are for the audio equipment. No junction boxes. System is dead quiet. My krell amp needs a dedicated line. Good luck
I'm gonna do 2- 10 gage lines with reasonable hospital grade outlets and be done with it for now. Ill look into the fancy fuses etc after the lines are run. Maybe check out the cable company and try out some cables after I get a better amp although I am very skeptical of power cables and speaker cables to a lesser extent. Not saying I'm right..... just very skeptical.
I did a 30a line, only one, and it's great. Don't worry about these people needling you for going big and don't use some flimsy transformer. Good wire, good outlets, good power cables, etc. Worth it.
As mentioned above don't go through the trouble with a 30A line - run 3 20 A lines instead, labor will be the most expensive part anyway it'll only take a fraction of time longer running 3 lines compared to one.
Run all three from the same side of your panel. Unless you have a very long run 12Gauge Romex will be sufficient.
As others have stated, there is no reason for a 30 amp line. One dedicated 20 amp line with a good multi outlet power conditioning unit like a Furman SPR-20i should suffice. However, before you even go that far, try using an isolation transformer on your current connection. Don't worry about all the "mod videos" telling you that you need to fool with the ground system. That only comes into play for work benches where you could screw up and electrocute yourself. Any non-audiophile/hospital grade unit from a reputable company like Tripp-Lite will do. You just want to verify that you will hear an improvement. If you go cheap and get noticeable results, spending more money for a pricier unit probably won't make enough of a difference to justify the additional cost.
Think this through. Every circuit on a given breaker box leg runs in parallel. Each device on a given leg is in parallel with every other device. So.... If there is anything on the same leg in your breaker panel, that noise will enter into the "dedicated circuit" the same way it would if it was coming through the same circuit breaker.
Most circuits are on 20amp breakers so if your equipment runs OK on the existing circuit, there's no particular need to run a separate circuit. If your existing circuit is insufficient to handle your equipment load, then a circuit or two might help. But you won't necessarily eliminate noise from other equipment just because a circuit has its own breaker. It's all about what is on that particular leg.
If you are REALLY SERIOS about isolating your equipment from circuit noise, IMO, the only REAL way to do it is with a line isolation transformer. It plugs into a standard 15-5 receptacle (standard wall outlet) and has one or more isolate outlets. It's what hospitals use to isolate sensitive equipment or high-gain amplifier on that equipment from external noise. Not the cheapest solution, but IMO the most effective.
Put a Cruze First outlet in and call it good. I have owned both and the Cruze sounds better to me and is much cheaper. Also check with the manufacturer of your components to make certain the Synergistic fuse or other exotic fuses wont void your warranty. Due diligence is required when using some of this exotic stuff like fuses. Hearsay from one manufacturer states that the S.R. fuse is more interested in protecting itself than your equipment and other manufacturers provide blanket warnings regarding exotic fuses.
There's no need for a 30A circuit. Listen to @cleeds .
Two 20A breakers, 20A hospital grade or audiophile duplexes, and 10/2 or 12/2 Romex. The lines from the service panel should be run with 12" separation from each other. It's important to wire the lines to the same (leg) phase in the panel. Any high-current-draw appliances such as refrigerator or air conditioner should be moved to the opposite leg.
Two weeks ago I added two 20 amp lines. They go directly to the outside box. The sound has become a little bright with everything plugged into the new lines.
Well its a minimal expense running the second line and I figured having the digital and amps separated would be a good idea. I will read your link you posted. Will look into the orange fuse as well. As far as cryo wire and transformers prob not ready to go that far yet! For 400 bucks all in I figure it very well could be a very reasonable improvement.
It's not. No one needs 30A. What does help though is the larger gauge. But not enough to be worth the $$.
I've actually done this stuff mofojo and not just once but three times, or four or five depending what you want to count, and all in the same room, so know first hand exactly what does what and how much and the cost and trouble and all of that. More than you know. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
Do not run 2 lines. Just don't. It is a really stupid idea. According to Michael Fremer https://ultimist.com/video/2018/07/21/michael-fremers-listening-room/ Skip to 15:50 I posted almost this exact same thing within the last week but apparently no one knows how to use a search bar. Don't take it personal- no one does!
The biggest most cost-effective is to just run one 20A line direct to your system, put a Synergistic Research Orange outlet in there, and call it good. Because next up from that is a larger gauge wire, and it will sound better, mine is 4ga, but for the cost you get more improvement from one $160 Orange Fuse. Next up from that is to cryo all the wire, but even if you find the local deal of the century like I did and schmooze the guy into doing your wire for fifty cents a pound, it is a nice improvement but again not worth the expense and hassle compared to a Orange Fuse.
Next up from that is change the 220V circuit to 240V and use a step-down transformer, and here the quality of the transformer is everything. I got a great deal on a used Audio Consulting and would never go back but that is an all silver wired 40 lb transformer would not want to see what they go for now. Get a good power cord, same improvement, whole lot easier.
Why you are probably wondering have I done all this stuff that is not worth doing? Good question. This was THIRTY YEARS AGO there was no one to tell me what was what. More to the point the things like Orange Fuses that are now more cost-effective did not even exist back then.
Learn from experience. Run your ONE line. Spend the rest of your money on Schumann generators, Townshend Pods, SR HFT, ECT, PHT, and other stuff that is far more bang for the buck and way less time and trouble than running AC lines.
I basically just want to be ready for anything I get. Parasound hca 3500 or Musical Fidelity kw500 I hear it is reccomended 30a and I am looking at both of those. Running a temporary amp Aragon 2002 at the moment with Pioneer S-1ex speakers. I'm not totally convinced its a power issue but rather a room overload issue at 90-100 db which i don't listen to all that often. We shall see.
In many jurisdictions, a 30A line will require a receptacle rated at 30A, and that won't be compatible with the 15A or 20A plug you'll find on your component. In any event, I'm not aware of any amplifier that requires a 30A line.
I did dedicated lines many years ago and got blacker background. But when you say "sounds like they are straining somewhat when you crank things up". Sounds to me your amp might be running out of steam. What's your amp and what speakers are you using and their efficiency?
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