Let's make it a habit of shutting down conversations that aim to tear others down!
And Dave a bit fewer words would REALLY be appreciated.
And Dave a bit fewer words would REALLY be appreciated.
Dealers hijacking the discussions
I’m a very long term member and look at the forums most every day. I’m personally extremely irritated by dealers injecting sales pitches into the discussions which has never really been a problem before. Dealers are biased as it’s the nature of business and this is fine but I don’t go to audiogon to see shameless promotion. There’s one guy in particular that needs to go away. The fact that you’ll all know who it is says volumes about the amount of posting this guy/dealer does on audiogon. Does anyone feel as I do. Just curious.
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4: things as OP I want to comment on: 1. 75% of verbiage to my thread is from a dealer 2. Bill Parish of GTT is one of the best guys in audio and would never push his wares or opinions in these forums and i haven't bought anything from him since some Kharmas probably 15 years ago and I have no relationship w him at all 3. If Wilson has lost its way I missed it on my pair of Yvettes coming after some really good speakers. They are awesome and I humbly think that after 40 years experience in high end audio i can recognize awesome 4. If it's ok for one dealer to constantly attempt to mine buyers in the forums what if it were 10? or 20? |
I submit all any of us can do is recognize "awesome" to our own ears! That doesn't mean that our "ears" are absolute in determining what is "awesome" for someone else. The more "we" as audiophiles get that there are no absolutes in audio, only preferences, the better off this hobby will be. We argue so much about what's good, bad, awesome, and the best! It's so silly in something as subjective as audio. I do submit it's great to talk about why we prefer one product over another. |
Dave says: "
I will give you one little example currently we are testing a $2,000.00 power cord with some unique technology that has made a gigantic difference in one of our setups..." Really? A GIGANTIC difference!! Was what that power cord did also include being jaw-dropping, night and day, hugely revealing and perfectly transparent? Come on., Dave, you are a dealer...you are in the biz...you know better than. If an expensive (yes, $2,000 is expensive) PC does anything other than supply AC to the power supply, it would be very subtle. Gigantic is not subtle. You guys slay me. |
4425 Bill doesn’t have to he has made a fortune direct selling his products vs being a true importer that doesn’t sell direct. Go ask Kharma how that relationship ended up or any of the lines that he killed. He is too busy halking his wares at shows all over the place to care about these forums. As per 75% is from me, how many posts were directed at slandering me or making some nasty commment at my direction? Do you expect me to take these insults from people without being able to retort. Go check out my post to your USB question, and see how I answer most posts, we have tested 4 or 4 brands and models of USB cables do you think my findings there might be helpful or is that shilling to my brands? What I meant Wilson losing their way, how many companies consistantly come out with a new model every few years at dramatically ever increasing price points and make most of their changes impossible to retrofit? Is this fair to the consumer? I know you love your Wilson’s I was not commenting on their sound. Dave Wilson drives a Ferrari who many people in audio are wealthy due to sales of their products? The real answer is not many. Dynaquest, yes a huge difference, increase in rhythemic percussive qualities and a slightly tighter bass. Putting this one cable in line with our reference power conditioner has made the entire presentation much more holographic and incisive. Once experienced hard to want to remove it. Buy one and find out for yourself or don’t. Not your average power cord, has a huge active circuit in it with actual electronics. Dave owner Audio Doctor NJ |
greghn, I don’t enjoy bickering or making long winded explanations, no body should be attacking anyone on these forums, or at shows or in stores. The direct approach is best Grgr4blu didn’t like my style of getting to know and talk to my clients about all things not including just audio, and he didn’t like my effusive sales style. 1 year at Innovative Audio I sold $40k worth of Black Diamond racing cones and shelves because I grabbed everyone to show them how a $700 worth of Black Diamond products could make a huge difference in a systems performance for little cost compared to changing a component. Was the reason I was showing inexpensive accessories to make money or was it that the product was great and effective, and people who heard my presenation purchased the product because they heard the same thing which then lead to the sales? That was many years ago, I haven’t worked at SBS for 13 or 14 years now, so what happend between him and myself was probably around 1993 pretty long time to hold a grude about a sales person whose crime was talking too much and being too effusive. All he had to do was to pull me aside and directly say in a nice manor that he didin’t like my approach and that would have been that. No need for animosity. He has consistantly acted like I have hurt him in someway and lashes out accordingly. Not Cool, and no one needs him to protect the forums. You will see that most posts I have commented on are one or two mentions it is only in regards to being attacked that rebuttals occur. Just like Dynaquest being incredulous of my findings. He could PM me and find out the entire story, and he could if he wanted to check out the product from any of that companies dealers if he felt too strongly against my biases On one of the loudspeaker posts in comes a European guy directly making an actual sales pitch to buy from him now that is shilling. Me saying to someone in Albequrique New Mexico or Spain or Detroit to go check out a pair of Legays, ATC, or Paradigms is not shiling unless they fly into NJ and come to my store and purchase from me, not gaining a thing and that is the difference between shilling and making a recommendation. |
Dave:. Please....I'm the third, at least, to ask that you do this. Before you start typing a reply or post, think about your point in replying. Then attempt to be concise and succinct...perhaps in maybe three or four sentences. Your typical replies are so long and rambling, most of us, like me, likely read the first sentence and skip to the bottom. Are you the digital version of that guy who likes to hear himself talk? |
We are all guilty of this in a way. When somebody opens up a thread asking for opinions on piece ‘a’ or ‘b’, how many times do you have people write in saying that piece ‘c’ Or ‘d’ is better? These replies probably come from non-dealers but they could also come from somebody that will be selling their piece shortly. Personally I like when people chime in with other alternatives, I have not reviewed or heard every piece of equipment out there and some suggestions that people bring up might peak my interest. i have seen threads when people make suggestions on alternatives and they get shot down, which to me shows that the person isn’t open minded. I do agree that dealers or even non-dealers shouldn’t pressure people into something that the don’t want. |
Dave, why don’t you stop engaging with gpgr4blu? You post, then he posts, then you go into a ten paragraph response. All that does it stir the pot further until the thread degrades into a name-calling thread between the two of you. You will contribute a lot more value to the discussion by focusing on the topic at hand, rather than having your public battles, primarily with one poster. It’s silly, it degrades the forum, and it makes you look like a kindergartener. It's the definition of insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. |
To respond to Audiotroy's continued lies above. I never never stated that I have a "great system" as he claims I've said. Nor have I or would I say anything to that effect. My system is no better than anyone else's system that works for them. I have also not hijacked a Persona thread as he said. I will quote my post on October 28th on another thread in which Audiotroy accused me of appearing to have an axe to grind against him him: "Audiotroy: Your store has good products, indeed many excellent ones. I’m a fan of ATC, T&A, Legacy, KEF, Stiipoints and many others that it appears you may sell. I actually have no ax to grind. Don’t hijack with never ending "educational" and self promoting pablum and biased dealer opinions and we’ll be fine. Just look at posts by Jonathan Carr, Atmasphere, Audioengr, Kevin Deal (Upscale Audio), Albert Porter (Allnic) and countless others whose opinions many of us here value. They don’t come in to threads that have nothing to do with their products and suggest to OPs to try their products as an alternative to the product at hand. I’m sure they have the urge to talk about their very extensive knowledge and experience and cite chapter and verse of how they came to manufacture or sell what they believe to be the best products of their kind. But they don’t. That is why when they speak, we still listen attentively and often learn. And you don’t have to claim that you have more integrity than other dealers to sell your stuff. It is simply not necessary. Let the products you sell speak for themselves. Peace" Audiotroy has not responded. |
@4425 , I have be hesitant to respond to this thread, but I have to say that your post is spot on. The dealer in question-'He who must not be named'- is truly becoming an annoyance. As I said in an earlier post, there are other dealers on Agon who provide great information without trying to make a sale. Guess where I'll do my buying... B |
Yup. You've had a fun set of careers man! For those who don't know, I sold my Basis rig to Tomic this past year. We've talked a bunch and much of it about our hobbies outside of audio. Just another passion for the forums. I"ve gotten to meet some great folks so far from designers, to shop owners to fellow audiophiles. Tons of fun for someone who often has to stay home and can't socialize. |
Kewl indeed. Early in my career I designed some of the circuits and some of the associated test equipment for various incarnations of the radar system on the A-6 Intruder attack aircraft, which was carried on the Kitty Hawk. And also for some of the radar countermeasure equipment on its EA-6B electronic warfare variant. My thanks also to Ctsooner and Dynaquest4 for their service and sacrifices. Best regards, -- Al |
As many others have said, I think dealers provide a valuable service as long as there is disclosure. If they over do it, people recognize that and it probably works to their detriment. Audiogon is a better place with responsible dealers with good products to inform us about. (Disclosure, I am not a dealer). |
almarg: Thanks for the "attaboy"...always appreciated. Also, thanks for your part in designing the greatest medium bomber in the Navy's history. ctsooner: While you were on Kitty Hawk, I was flying or managing P-3C's out of Hawaii and WestPac/IO. Hope you are doing well and enjoying a drink or two with your music!! |
@almarg You mentioned the EA-6B electronic warfare variant. I worked on the radar jamming gear on those aircraft from around late 1983 to the end of 1986. When at sea, I was aboard the USS John F Kennedy or the USS Saratoga. I'm a little late to the party, but all of you servicemen, thanks for your service. |
This looks like a fun thread. So I ask myself " self why don't you jump in and add your deep knowledge to this subject " My alter ego told me to shut the F up. A serious question however. I hope it is quite clear by my moniker that I am, at least for the time being a dealer. Is it or should I spell that our on every thread? Jim |
Agree with Tomic. Thanks to all of you guys who served. Very cool. I was friends with everyone on the ship. Being the Repair Office, I had a ball. I was able to help with the fixing of the ship after we collided with that Victor Class, Soviet sub in March of 84. That was a crazy time. As far as dealers go, yes, you need to point that out in every post you make. I had no clue that you were a dealer based on your name. How could I? Many folks have names that could sound like a dealer when you think about it. Thanks. |
Okay I will chime in Anthem Aqua Hifi Dacs Aurender Audioquest Audio Magic April Music Audience Acoustic Systems Resonators Acoustic Systems Cartridges ATC Athom Audio Control Baetis Servers Benz Cambridge Audio Cabasse Cary Audio Coda Crowson Tactille Conrad Johnson Dali Earthquake Enklein Cables Electrocompaniet Gradient Isotek Innious Zenith Server JL Audio KEF, KEF Rerferece KEF Blades LG Legacy Light Harmonic the Davinci Lyra Lumin Nad Nad Masters Naim Naim Uniti Manley Labs Merrill Wiliams Mr. Speaker Micromega Nuprime Parasound Paradigm Prestige Paradigm Persona PSB Polymer Audio Research Rethem Loudspeakers Rega Shakti Solid Tech Racks Sythesis Italian Tube Amplifiers Screen Innovations T+A Unison Research Waterfall Wireworld Audio Doctor dealer of the month too :} love your focus it just seems a bit limited |
Keith your loss not anyone elses. As per tirades the only triade that has ever occurred is when we are attacked by someone in particular. Our posts are found to be very helpful to many people. If you are boycotting a product based upon what a particular person says about it versus your own feelings you will never purchase anything as there are detractors on everything as well as many fans of many products. A wise man seeks advice from all sources and learns accordingly. I have over 30 years of field experience in tunning and designing systems. The reason for that post is to illustrate the difference between a hobbist dealer and a real dealer in terms of experience and selection. Good luck to you sir. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Yes Grgr4blu you know what they say. If you had ever visted us listened to our systems maybe you wouldnt be so out of touch. The people who visit the shop all say the same things. We have a real selection and most people love comming to a store which actually offers choices. Not to mention offering a real home environment and offering our guests real hospitality is something we enjoy. Our selection of goods represent many unique brands that most people would love to hear. As well as offering a facility where you can hear 2-4 of the top choices in each catagory. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
