I’m a very long term member and look at the forums most every day. I’m personally extremely irritated by dealers injecting sales pitches into the discussions which has never really been a problem before. Dealers are biased as it’s the nature of business and this is fine but I don’t go to audiogon to see shameless promotion. There’s one guy in particular that needs to go away. The fact that you’ll all know who it is says volumes about the amount of posting this guy/dealer does on audiogon. Does anyone feel as I do. Just curious.
@Bar81, just
because we disagree, does not make me wrong.
I don’t mind Audiotroy’s post and I don’t mind gpgr4blu post - when they post independent
of one another. What I do dislike is the
constant back and forth bitc$ing between the two that disrupts threads.
In addition, we cannot have Agon members act
as moderators because they moderate based on personal bias and not on
established Agon guidelines/policies.
We have never complained to moderators or asked to have posts removed.
You guys need to realize there are many actual shills on these sites with direct links to manufacturers or dealers.
You guys also need to realize that dealers base their sales decisions on sometimes what they believe in or on what they think will sell.
We have always chosen products based on two principles sound quality and value.
What you think of as shilling or trolling is trying to draw attention to prouducts that might also be an excellent fit for the OP.
As mentioned before the chance to actually sell these products is low.
What is wrong with suggesting options that the OP wasnt thinking about?
I can assure you our mention would have been brief but then Gr4blu comes in and bam.
The forum is supposed to be an open exchange.
Lets say you were in the market for a new Dac $15k and some dealer suggested dac x and after you researched said hey this dac hits all my buttons and you get to hear it and it sounds better and costs less would you be better off or not? Information and opinions should all be considered valid.
I don't mind dealer participation in the least, AS LONG AS THEY DISCLOSE THEY ARE A DEALER. Caps fully intended.
For me personally, once I put 2+2 together and figure out a poster is a dealer subtly pushing an agenda, they've lost me. I mentally and visually ignore their posts as if they're not even there, and they've lost me as a potential customer.
And yes, I've also been solicited directly by dealers through the messaging system after posting in a thread.
"As mentioned before the chance to actually sell these products is low."
I can easily believe that. Seems to me that very few actually take the advice that is offered here anymore, excepting fuses, DIY power cords, tweaks, and a certain brand of speakers and one of power conditioners.
audiotroy: Outside of the members that actually visit your store (it appears that the success rate is relatively high then), what would you say is the rate of success from your recommendations directly addressing a member’s gear-selection situation being followed by the subject member or even influencing their purchase decisions?
Due to the financial squeezes, the limited audience, the internet shift, the low level of sales and where to obtain said sales...it might be comparable to a shrinking well full of monkeys. And the well is getting deeper all the time, the surface (way out) is getting further away and the monkeys are being squeezed. Agitated. Crushed.
Sooner or later a few monkeys will be found to be standing on the rest, as the rest are crushed in the fray to try and get to clear and clean air, and maybe get out of the ever worsening well.
The ones who find compromise of some sort will get some form of success in standing on the rest. Ie, violation of morals and ethics in a well of monkeys being crushed.
Something like that. Except it’s not garbage, it’s people and their livelihoods. It’s moving into an act of standing on everyone else. At some point or another, ethics/morals gets tossed, or one dies. Simple equation.
Do they like it or do they even want to do it? Who does? And, who is violating the so called ethics? Are there even rules here? When the given culture has rules and those rules no longer hold -as the sytem if failing- who in that system survives or wins? What the heck is winning, anyway?
Sympathy for the devil, or just a wider understanding of the circumstance? Audio is changing, like all things do.
Where and what one is doing in the given individually related flow and change ---is up to them. If one finds a different way than what others ’know’ and can figure out, what does that mean?
A way out, or just a different way of standing on top of others? When does this change come for a business or business model, does it happen all at once or is it all mixed up and all over the place for a long transition period? (if such a transition period can even be recognized while in the moment)
You’ll find good dealers and manufacturers and bad ones, each seen differently by different people. I’m (we’re) charlatans and snake oil sellers to some. To others, we’re decent people selling decent wares to people who want those wares.
Eg, is the internet based ideas of a beats headphone company a good idea.... or just a more effective parasite that has found a doorway, a doorway which has excellent access to hosts?
When does a rising consensus stray from considered thought (if it ever was thought oriented) ....and become dogmatic ritual? Who and what preys on such evolved societal and cultural norms... is part of the package as that is the slick way in, the time honored way in, the backdoor of widespread acceptance and penetration.
Big money marketing (political or corporate, no difference) does it's best to be non-intrusive to what is so fondly called consciousness... as that is the path to being effective in dominance in a unconsciously maintained human collective phenomenon named as a "functional and cohesive society and culture". The human world is dominated by it's unconscious aspects of cohesion, no matter what the voice in your head tries to say or do.
Individuals (dealers, manufacturers, etc) on forums generally aren't that slick. Otherwise you'd never notice.
Can dealers on forums, named openly or clandestine... be all that complex? Yes. It is.
Dave, I'll add my two cents, as a newcomer. I've been here less than a year, look through the forum on a somewhat casual basis, and knew (or felt I knew) exactly who the OP was talking about. It's that obvious. Most everything of yours that I've read appears to have merit, but when the entire thread is hijacked, repeatedly, that's where the problem seems to be. If you're alienating potential customers, it's not in your best interest. Less is more. Just my opinion, from the outside looking in, L.
The next domino to fall in that chain of logic, is that if the unconscious rules the social and cultural cohesion..and it does... then mediocrity rules the roost in sales and market penetration.
’The best’ in that main middle thing that floats along..is merely a projection of what mediocrity thinks or rather imagines is best.
Which is how you end up with big butts, collagen lips and breast implants as idealizations.
Even in the world of audio.
Mediocrity sees a cow in the field. Moo. Food.
A wider view...maybe sees...millions of years of evolution, DNA, dimensional realities, complex physics of quantum systems, multiple potential realities, non linear time and so on. (IE, according to Musk and many others, it’s not a base reality, chances of that are billions to one against. He’s not wrong - no matter how upsetting to the unconscious ruler of your ’reality’ that this point may be)
If you notice it is only when a certain member starts attacking us does a post get hijacked.
Why dont you talk to us about any audio related question and see for yourself most people who have actually contacted us will vouch for our knowledge and openesss. We will often if it comes up discuss products that we dont sell and recomend those products as well.
The fish rots from the head down. The bar has lowered, if not eliminated. All of this is like a slow motion version of the demise of the Krell in the movie, Forbidden Planet.
For those who haven't seen the movie, the premise goes something like this: an advanced culture creates the ultimate device that allows everyone to link in with their minds and create a more beautiful world.
What they got instead were 'creatures from the id'. They simply forgot that there is an unconscious side to their thoughts that once unleashed, destroyed them.
Sounds a lot like what fakebook and twiddle did, doesn't it?
Thanks bar 81. By the way, Audiotroy mischaracterizes the thread he invaded to make it seem like the poster was confused about which speakers he should consider. The OP indicated that he currently owned Proacs and wanted to upgrade to either used Sasha 2s or Sabrinas. He wanted help in choosing between those two. Then in came Audiotroy to tell him that he should consider others---with his usual thousand words. I want all to know that I only call out Audiotroy when he invades a thread in which I am already a participant and hijacks it away from an OP's inquiry. I will never seek him out just to badger him as my time is more important than to be bothered searching for whatever Audiotroy has to say which is always too much. I truly enjoy this forum and would be sad to see it devolve into an opportunistic salesman's feeding ground. If I can stop the momentum,I will. I will certainly not remain silent or quit because of Audiotroy's misconduct.
Excellent post Nonoise. I am not sure I grasp the implication specifically re: the thread topic, but I completely get what it says about the world that has been created by the internet.
Audiotroy, even though I’m new here, I’ve belonged to many forums in the last 25 years. I’m not confused what ’hijacking’ is. Nor salesmanship. As I said, if you have something to add, I don’t think anyone would complain, if you did it in a different manner. I think you’re doing yourself a dis-service here. That’s all. Take care, L.
@dlcockrum , I was kind of riffing off what @teo_audio was saying. I think that once societal standards are lowered, boundaries that used to be respected, aren't.
I remember when if anyone volunteered that they had something to sell on a thread, all the participants would chime in and ask them not to do it. That's what the 'for sale' section was there for. There was a self policing aspect here that didn't require the mods to step in unless someone got really out of hand. God, I'm starting to sound old.
Alright. It is very plain and simple. All the dealers and manufacturers, please do us a favour and leave this forum once and for all. Just because you have a formal right to be here doesn't mean that you should. Stop irritating us and humiliating yourselves. This is a not a place to do business.
There’s a very blurry line between manufacturer, distributor, dealer, reviewer and hobbyist and an attempt to rule on who is and is not allowed to contribute is doomed to in the long run just further damp down the site. We should welcome as many voices and perspectives as possible and as others have noted you soon learn to tune out the nattering nabobs of negativity or the blowhard sales folks
Hey who is the "us" that want the dealers to leave A’Gon. The "me" finds their contributions invaluable.
I consider these dealers to have more knowledge than me for the most part. That does not mean I will agree with everything. For example, there are a couple of things AudioTroy said about digital music servers that I may disagree with. However, I do not have the time nor inclination to prove if he is right or I am right by testing this out. For many of the other ideas he has presented, that I have limited knowledge on, I take his statements with more credibility than regular posters (like me). Not assuming his recommendations will work for me but I give dealers a lot more leeway because they spend the whole day with audio.
I am about to spend a lot of money soon on a final system ($50Kish) (this is not a hobby for me). I have found that AudioTroy’s feedback here has helped me understand my audio observations better. I do not know anyone locally that cares about audio to talk to so this is invaluable.
I reside in California but I want to make a purchase from his store one day just to show support for all the grief he encounters here.
Not for a minute am I suggesting that any one group not be allowed to participate. On the other hand, no one should run rough-shod over the thread, either. That's all.
I've talked to Audiotroy several times and I've asked him to recommend ways to improve my system. He didn't try to sell me speakers, an amp, or any major component. He recommended a couple modest tweaks. Some believe his opinions are based on what he sells, but he has said good things about a couple of my components and he doesn't carry them. He just doesn't bother me!
Let’s put this all in perspective. I never mind dealer or manufacturer who discloses his interest and comments on his own products or on things of general interest. In fact, it is often very informative and helpful. It is all in the way that they present themselves. For example: 1-A helpful suggestion, comment on appropriate ancillaries, comment on how to use the products a poster manufactures or sells and many other types of posts by such folks are welcome. 2-A naked shill who invades a thread having nothing to do with his products, talks on and on about himself, his reputation and experience while denigrating others among his ranks and who is out to steer the OP away from the product the OP has clearly decided upon in the hopes that the OP will purchase his products or that others in the thread will learn about his products---not welcome. If all dealers and manufacturers followed 1 above, this forum would be fabulous. If they followed 2, it would be hell.
You certaintly would not find out about a possible new and better product than what you are allready considering?
The point is what if poster x on a forum was introduced to a product they never had thought of and this product sounded better or saved the OP money you presume the OP is going to be happy or not?
You cry shill and troll the fact that many people feel that your tireless attacks do not serve this forum and are in equil bad taste.
The point really should be is the product a valid recomendation that the OP may like?
Your world is a world were anyone pitching a new idea should be shunned because they dared to do so.
Many people who are actually shopping for something are oftentimes happy to discover a brand or a propuct they didnt know about.
If you didnt attack us then the response would be brief.
The point really should be is the product a valid recomendation that the OP may like?
The point actually is whether the recommendation is valid (or perhaps 'uncolored' would be a better adjective) due to the fact that your livelihood is selling what you recommend. That is the true elephant in the room. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous. In my world, I never "shun anyone pitching a new idea". Neither am I so naive that I imagine salesmen are doing so because they only want to help me. This will be my last post on the subject, Dave.
Huh? What? Why would I comment on this thread? I am not a dealer, nor do I have a problem with dealers posting here, nor do I have a problem with manufacturers - like myself - posting on the forum. Carry on, smoke if ya got em.
I thought ‘hijacking’ was taking a discussion from say, amps, to a discussion about for instance, DACs, being held by two or more members conversing about their new this or that DAC as if they were PM each other and totally irrespective of the topic, OP, or other member’s input.. Now, that sounds like a ‘hijacking’ to me.
Drifting off point into some esoteric essay loosely associated with the topic, but still in the ball park, is quite another scenario.
FYI One can never 'invade' or ‘bardge’ into a thread. They ain’t private, so bardging is a non thing.
Gaining new insights or ideas on gear never known of previously seems a pretty good thing. I have to admit AT has at least provided if nothing else, names of previously unknown competing brands to those I did know.
When I was in sales, there is a thing called ‘qualifying’. Its done thru talking to the customer as one tries to develop rapport. It did not take too long in the trade to see some folks are readily and easily approachable, and some just are not. Some need to find their own way and these will ask you directly about those points which interest them. IOW, leaving some alone adding absolutely no pressure, overt or implied, is the perfect way to deal with them.
Most audiophiles are the ‘hands off’ variety. Nuts and bolts sorts. Numbers and blueprints kind. Especially the ones who have been around the block once or twice. Options for this group is input they’ll meet with interest. If these options remotely contain inferences of sales, it is received as offputting.
‘Just browsing’ is the overwhelming attitude in forums, not inferences of sales past or future.
I’m pretty sure, and there may be many more, but once a poster starts throwing about w ords like: sold; sell; sales; we sell; we liked; we preferred; we have sold: we used to carry that: we dropped that line; come visit; are not what members are looking for in forums, imo. I know I’m not.
How you say it is as important as what you say and don’t’ say.
Come correct! individuals are expecting individual input, not company lines, corporate policies, and so forth.
In other words in the forums, just be a person. One without the atmosphere or onus of strings firmly, loosely, or possibly being attached., then or later.
Given TAO’s above essay, the issue in commerce hinge on this: in a valueless society price, is king.
Predominately. Like 90% or grater. Quality may not even be in the equation, it may well be understood, but price remains unseated these days.
A correction is coming. Just like in real estate a couple years back when that market crumbled and crashed. Its on the horizon. As well it should be. The only unknown is its degree of impact.
Over at the DIYaudio forum, we started a thread called 'thraedjacking'. all about changing the thread. I was so good at being off topic that I managed to practically own that one....
Why deal with one subject at time when one can deal with a dozen? Why crawl by the inch when you can fly in all directions at the same time?
+1 folkfreak I appreciate all the dealers and manufactures insight. I have to say that I even treat the ordinary audiophile on these threads with a grain of salt until I can tell where they are coming from. Some of the others that have posted for a long time, you can tell where they are coming from and thus can enjoy their contribution, even though you may not agree. As many have noted even though it takes a while it all comes out in the wash. Or in time the fake posters leave and what we have left is a good core of regular posters on many subjects. I might recommend this even though many of the good posters usually do this, ignore the ill mannered posts as hard as it may be to, ignore the attacks, don't reply to ones you cannot have a mutually good discussion or address the undressed(that's suppose to be funny). Because what's left is a higher concentration of assistance and a shared joy in this hobby. And the most of ill mannered posters will eventually go off to other pastures.
If having a website listing products and prices in addition to posting ads on Audiogon for same products makes one a dealer, a dealer who chimed in above and said he wasn't a dealer actually is.
Is it me or has anyone else noticed that the tone of a lot of posts and threads bear more than a passing resemblance to a scripted reality show? And a bad one at that? It's getting to be almost predictable.
Audiotroy: You obviously did not read my last post which sums up my position on manufacturers and dealers. Nothing more needs to be said. I'm done here.
Yes Gpgr4blu, I did read it, your feeling is if someone chimes in on that topic and only that topic/product is cool and all other response is in your words trolling.
You obviously didn’t read the Wilson Sasha post either, here is the direct quote from the OP
" Looking for any advice on whether this seems like a good deal, whether the Sasha 2s would be a big step up from the Proacs."
Again if you actually read the man has concerns, if a 25+ pair of Proac has even in this man’s mind a possiblilty to stand up to a pair of Brand new state of the art Wilson Sashas, then obvioulsy the man wasn’t 100% convinced.
If you also notice he never said" I am going to buy this or that, he was wondering if the used pair of Sashas was a good deal, and could easily better his Proacs.
The fact that most of us would say is almost any good $10k+ pair of speakers should easily beat the stuffings out of an older set of Proacs.
Dave owner, Audio Doctor NJ
Nonise I couldn’t agree with you more, in Grgr4blu’s mind we are the evil misguided troll dealer, vs his rightous good dealer friends whom all do the right things and he is the hero of our story the rightous do gooder who calls out and vanquishes evil.
I would be so into haveing people who read these posts actually come over and hear our reference system and see for themselves and then go listen to his system and see which is better, I bet that would make great TV.
"
Tangents. It's all about tangents."Well said nonoise. Dealers should have some symbol/identifier that means they are a dealer,in their name somewhere .Just so we know. also "
evil misguided troll dealer, vs his rightous good dealer friends whom all do the right things and he is the hero of our story the rightous do gooder who calls out and vanquishes evil" ..Hey,As long as the Hero's all wear a Mask and a Cape.Maybe a Treble Clef symbol on their chest?
As a consumer, I can certainly understand the OP's sentiment, but as a business owner and vendor here on Audiogon, I also have to see things from the point of view of someone who spends a lot of money to be a part of this community and wants to recoup on that investment by sourcing new clients.
That being said, there is quite a bit of difference between a vendor chiming in to say, "hey, we carry the brand that you are looking at and would love to help you if you aren't already working with another dealer that you like," vs completely derailing a thread by making repeated posts in an attempt to close a deal that would be best handled via PM's. It's all in how it's handled.
I'd also like to point out that just because a vendor stands to gain financially from his advice doesn't mean that it's not still good advice or that it isn't in the client's best interest. I personally always recommend equipment based on how well it addresses my clients' needs, not on what's the most profitable for me. Perhaps others here do not do that, I don't know - I can only attest to my own business practices.
At the end of the day, most of us are small business owners just trying to earn a living and provide for our families, and this is a tough industry with lots of competition. We have thousands of dollars going out the door every month in rent, utilities, advertsing, insurance, payroll, vendor contracts w/ minimum annual purchase requirements, etc., and don't always have the luxury of waiting for people to walk through the door to make a sale.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, go easy on us, guys - I know that no one likes a salesman, but we're not here to take advantage of anyone (at least I hope no one is doing that) - we're just here in hopes of finding people that are in the market to purchase equipment, and if we can provide them with that equipment at a good price and with good service, that's a win for all involved.
Take care guys,
David Campbell President - Southern A/V Direct, LLC
I'm not sure why you feel the need to be so inflammatory in your response, especially considering that I'm not even one of the dealers under fire here (I don't post much on these forums, to sell or otherwise - too busy). I was simply trying to point out that most dealers are just honest people trying to earn a living and don't deserve the level of hostility that is sometimes directed towards them, as you have just demonstrated.
That being said, I'm going to politely bow out of the conversation now since there's clearly nothing that I can say without being senselessly berated for it. I hope that whoever among us dealers have prompted this kind of response from the community will learn from this and take a softer approach with their dealings going forward. Just know that most of us are not part of that problem, and can be great resources for you guys when needed.
Best wishes,
David Campbell President - Southern A/V Direct, LLC
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