DACs that do well without a preamp

The Lumin D2 offers LEEDH and is a little over 2 grand.  You can find a used one with an S-Booster for under that #.  With the upgraded power supply it’s an absolute steel at that price relative to performance and features.  Lumin offers one of the best volume solutions, DAC to amp but to echo others comments, my experience is a good Pre has always sounded better, I had the D2 with S-booster.  Went the separates route, streamer & tube R2R DAC.  Wouldn’t hesitate to buy another Lumin.  Their build quality and commitment to sound quality above all else in there design, implementation is extremely tough to beat.  The T2 is a bargain used or demo’d with the T3 having launched.  Good luck,

Another approach where built-in attenuators are deemed not good enough is to simply get a high quality passive, since high output voltage and low output impedance of most high end dacs make this feasible, provided cable runs are short. The additional active components of a pre tend to add distortion in most cases.

@agisthos : agreed in most cases, exceptions though confirm the rule: e.g. Antelope Zodiac, Sonnet, DCS, et al

Problem with DAC volume controls is they are either digital, and sound lifeless and flat, or they are a budget/space restricted analog volume control jammed into the DAC as an afterthought.

That's why a good pre-amp always sounds better. But I would prefer one less box, not to mention one less expensive power cable and interconnect.

So I have high hopes for the new LEEDH Processing, digital volume that is truly lossless. Instead of infinite fractions used to meet specific DB steps, it used whole numbers only. So far only Soulution (way out my price range) and Lumin (much more reasonable) are using it. All reports say it competes well with dedicated pre-amps.

It would be great to see LEEDH filter down to the 2-4k DAC market.

Hey @mitch2, that is what I said:  "A good pre amp just sounds better"

and @azwill I have tried my Tambaqui directly vs through my Audionet Preamp and it is much nicer through the preamp.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

LUMIN X1 utilizing Leedh Processing going direct to amp is very, very good.   I also have a Mola Mola Makua preamp with DAC.   In initial testing, I slightly preferred to utilize the Makua preamp volume control vs the Leedh Processing user optional volume control feature for the X1, but I have not revisited testing that.  I really llke Leedh and applaud LUMIN for including it at no extra charge for the X1.  The newly released T3, as well as P1, and prior T2 also include Leedh.  Early reviews of the T3 are positive and list price in US is just below $5,000.  

@mitch2

Some quick answers:

1. No i have not listened to the unit you mention, but i have experimented with it myself. It does have one major limit- which you allude to below. The contorl must be very noise free

2. Paul’s quote is irrelevant for the line output stage. His comments apply to LSB resolution of the DAC itself

3. Disagree --somewhat -- with Ralph’s vast over simplification. Keep the analog and digital sections independent but the two analog sections may be the same. That said, i would NEVER run a line stage or DAC output analog stage at the +5V or +3.3V provided to most DACs so in a practical way, fine.

I'll add that I probably spend more deign time on power supplies than on circuits, so the concept is good.  Yet this all comes back to "is it designed right"?  if if not, why does it work when run into a preamp - the problems don't just vanish you know.

... and yet it is irrelevant if you understand the topology of any DAC. There is an internal output stage (line stage) and it drives the preamp. It may be very simple (even the output of the DAC) but its there, and its characteristics don’t change.... until you add the volume control and then you are back where i spent my time in a previous reply.

As to Ralph’s last quote - i said that above. Maybe you didn’t follow. but this is going nowhere fast. I stand by everything i said. Its the output / volume configurations and the devil is in the details.
 

@itsjustme 

As an over-simplification: the only DACs to truly do volume control well are based on 32-bit, sigma-delta DAC chips

Have you heard or considered the Cees Ruijtenberg (Metrum then Sonnet) DACs that control volume, i.e., change the output voltage, by changing its reference voltage?

I find the "a preamp makes it sound so much better" a little confusing. 

Many (but not all) who have listened to the comparison between DAC-direct to amplifiers vs. using a good quality active preamp, and also the comparison between using a passive volume control vs. a good quality active preamp, report that having the preamp sounds better.  That has also been my opinion after multiple comparisons using passive volume controls and also using DACs that control the volume internally.  Although there are obviously subjective preferences at work, as in all of this hobby, IMO, the active circuitry in the preamp (even a unity gain buffer) helps control impedances and interconnect effects, and also mitigates potential demands on the source power supply.  Below are a few observations posted previously here:

DACs are significantly more sensitive to power supply changes and noises than preamps. When an output stage struggles to drive a complex load, it is the power supply feeding its output stage that sees these changes. If this occurs in a preamp, it has little effect. But that same situation, when applied to a DAC, has very different results indeed. Small changes in power supplies have big impacts on sound quality–especially jitter. - Paul McGowan

in support of the previous quote: 

Now of course such a line section could be built into a DAC- but then you have the issue of if you ever want to improve the DAC or the line section, you have to replace both (and its often not a good idea to have a DAC and line section run off of the same power supply). DACs are notorious for going out of date; this is a very real issue. - Ralph Karsten

and

I would expect other factors to be at play in many cases, depending on the specific equipment. Such as better sonics from the source component when its volume control is set at max than when it is attenuating the signal; differences in ground loop effects (which can affect low level high frequency noise and consequently “background blackness,” in addition to potentially causing hum), differences in impedance relationships; differences in sensitivity to cable effects, especially if a long run to the power amp(s) is necessary; - almarg

and finally, relative to passive vs. active preamps:

The reason an active line section can sound better than a passive has a lot to do with interconnect cables. Passive controls have poor output impedance- usually quite high, which allows the interconnect cable to do its worst mathematically speaking. - Ralph Karsten

@cheeg

It can't be the quality of the volume control ALONE, or the better companies would have fixed this flaw. Is the issue in the interface to the power amp (eg. an impedance mismatch), or is it a failure of the analog stage to accurately amplify the signal to line level?

You hit the three nails right on the head.  And i have looked at many circuits and they are not "fixed". dont under estimate how much the volume control method impacts sound. I just spent 3 years in my lab inside pandora's box. And an output (analog) stage that measures really well may not sound quite as good (let's not go here, OK :-) ?)

What about a Mytek Liberty dac ii? I haven’t heard it but have been curious. Does anyone have experience with that volume control?

JS

I find the "a preamp makes it sound so much better" a little confusing.  My only conclusion is that many people try this without doing any homework.

First - there's a huge question: how does the DAC perform volume control?  Volume control, in general, is the single largest source of sonic impairment in a preamp  (IMNSHO, but i have done a lot of actual research on this). So if you eliminate the preamp you are shifting the major sonic coloration from the preamp to an ancillary function of the DAC, which often is **awful** but occasionally is outstanding.

As an over-simplification: the only DACs to truly do volume control well are based on 32-bit, sigma-delta DAC chips, that allow for volume attenuation in the digital domain but, do to their 32 bit architecture, do not suffer this (significant) problems that most digital volume control does. If, for example, you use your PC or streamer to do this, digitally, before a regular DAC, forget it. The distortions are huge and built right into the math.  While i explained the generic result i think the only common chip like this is the ESS Sabre 9038.  Being 32 bit you can do the digital volume math, have all the truncations and still be left with more than 24 bits of resolution.

Other methods of volume control, that are cheap, and suck, include vary-int he feedback loop of an opamp, or using a buffer and a IC based resistive network. None of these are designed to be awesome - just convenient.

I use one DAC with the ESS chip directly (sometimes) and it sounds great.  Its only failing is that its analog buffers don't drive my cables as well, and i think i can hear the lack of weight -- but also the tiny little increase in transparency that comes from eliminating one stage with no other changes (except the aforementioned output drive capability and stability).

So - to answer this you really MUST do some homework not just on the chip and volume method but on the analog stage.  Or guess. Or listen to random people's thoughts which is basically guessing.

the rme is a good dac, many features, great value for the $ - it has an upfront and center sound, fairly flat and narrow imaging

the soekris 1541 (predecessor to the current 2541, some believe it is slightly better, but that is a separate conversation) has, to my ear, in my system, a more dimensional, fleshed out sound, much more proper imaging and spatial properties

i think the rme is terrific for headphone listening but less capable in an in room system where the user is trying to use speakers and room acoustics to recreate a realistic stereo image

otoh, the soekris dacs have a headphone output but i have heard some say that it is not the last word in sound quality with harder to drive hp's...  i am not so much a headphone guy so i cannot speak firsthand on this aspect

I'm currently listening to a Marantz HD-DAC1 using the variable output to a Mcintosh MC2100. The 2100 has left and right output gain levels and once calibrated with the Marantz volume control sounds wonderful. 

Yet another big vote for the RME ADI-2. It is super in my big tube mono block amps. There’s no turning back and RME sends regular software upgrades. 
 

Just an unbelievable value. 

Exogal Comet.  Great straight into an amp (no idea how it sounds with their ion amp)

Soekris dac2541. It uses an internal headphone amp as the line driver amp selectable on the front panel. I'm using it to drive an old Threshold amp through a 10k Ohm pot. Works very well. 

Most DAC put out 2V single ended or 4V balanced.  Also check the volts required for full power on the amp.  Some volume control bit strip "bit strip" as volume is reduced.  There are several kinds of volume control, resistors based, light based, auto former, digital, etc. 

I went through this, it sounded like the right thing to do.  It did not work for me.  My volume control bit stripped.  My amp needed 1.25v for full power so I thought I was good to go.  My speakers are quite efficient.  I ended up with a passive preamp.  I have great dynamics and sound.

I use a FiiO M11 directly to a tube audio research amp using balanced cables and it’s phenomenal. Had a nice tube preamp in there as an experiment and didn’t matter much if at all.

FiiO gives you 4.2v output on the balanced connection 

@fastfreight thanks for explaining. I didn't mention but probably obvious is synergy. The combined sound of a preamp and power amp can of course be more preferred than the individual character of each piece. 

Hello @seanheis1 , Interesting opinion which may be sometimes true.  My Amps and Pre are perfect together.  My opinion on this is that the preamp boosts the signal making it much better for the amps.  Of course this could be more significant with my amps than yours!  I can see that makes little sense as I like my Tambaqui output at its highest level.  Regardless, the Pre G2 makes it sound better to me every time.  Have a great day!  Ken

i tried several DACs w analogue volume control.  All sounded better through my preamp.

I guess If you do not have a good preamp, it is a nice way to go.  A good preamp improves the sound to my ears, that I have tried.

@fastfreight IME, if you don't like how a DACs analog volume control sounds, it's because you truly don't like the sound of your amp and the preamp is improving its sound. 

The analog output of a good DAC lets you hear your amp for what it is. 

My RME DAC lets me hear my power amps, for better or worse. My Van Alstine amp sounds glorious. My Hypex amp sounds....meh. It needs a tube pre-amp. ;-)

If you want to go without a preamp I think you need to increase your budget by a good amount. People run the chord Dave as a pre but I have not liked that setup in systems that I have heard. I did run a dCS bank Tom without a pre into a Krell duo 300xd with gods results. MSB Dac are goood without preamps but I would be looking at the premier or higher. I have a discrete that does well without a pre but I highly prefer my system with the D’Agostino HD pre in it. 

for mtdining: Excellent summary of affordable vs. expensive. I agree because I've tried both!.

I find reading this forum somewhat humorous. When I was young, I thought the preamp was more important than the power amp. It’s job is amplifying < 2 volts, so it has a proportionally large impact. Real world experience with how different amps drive very good speakers has changed that, but the only reason to forgo a preamp is funds. The other thing I’ve learned is that separate components are only better than integrate systems of an equivalent quality. A Boulder integrated amp will sound far better than separates from others costing less than ~ $20k. Or a HINT6 will sound better than separates less than ~$5k. I mention all this because the most affordable strategy over time is to buy something good and keep it. The expensive way to go is to keep buying mediocre components and then swapping them out for other mediocre components.

The RME ADI-2 DAC FS at $1300 does a great job without a preamp. I’m using one in my second system paired with a PS Audio S300, KEF LS50s & a REL T/5i subwoofer. Lot’s of rave reviews out there on this great little DAC, but it hasn’t garnered must praise on this forum.  The sound of the RME definitely fits your description of "Looking for clean, detailed, uncolored sound that "lifts the veil".

For about $2,000 used you could get a Bel Canto 3.7. Very musical and I use it without a preamp with my tube amp (Willsenton R8). However, it doesn’t handle very hi res files or MQA.

RME adi-2. I use it with Martin Logan ESL 13 and a Classé CA2200. Very clear and present sound. It acts as a preamp as there is even tone correction and left and right controls, all this with a remote!. Great price ($1'000) 

I just purchased a pre owned NAD C658 to pair with a Pass XA25.  Had low expectations...but am very surprised at excellent SQ and simplicity of system.

chord qutest is fixed output only

Chord DAVE is an excellent preamp. It has remote volume control and multiple digital inputs. RCA and balanced outputs. I use it as my preamp.

I can’t agree with those of you who think a preamp adds to the quality of the sound. Touching the signal can only degrade it. the less you touch it, the more intact it stays.

Edit:  Just noticed your budget. The chord Qutest will work as a preamp I think.  I've borrowed one and used it but don't remember how I controlled volume.

--Jerry

I use and completely love the Pontus II DAC, and at $1,730 it's an absolute steal. That said, I've only used it with a pre-amp, so no comparison for you 

RME ADI fs2 with Teddy Pardo linear power supply. I use this and don’t miss either of my preamps, which are a ModWright LS36.5 and Sonic Frontiers Line 2 SE. Been running direct and have not gone back but will be here soon to compare in more depth. The RME without the Teddy Pardo, no I would not go direct to my amp, as it’s a little thin by comparison but the Teddy fills things out.

Running a dac direct especially at $2k not good even high end it’s sonically better sounding with a quality preamp section . In a preamp Alps pots, or Bourne are $25 and loss of detail is for sure ,that’s why I avoid any integratedthat has these,a silver round attenuator is what to look for. ,a horrible cheap way out  but used by 70% of the industry it seems , a good resistor ladder shunt type  ,relay control or linear Type  , are Night and day better and  in higher end equipment.

a DAC that uses transistors, or tubes for the output stage is not passive, it may not have gain like a preamp, but it's still has an active device for the output.

While that may be true, many of them do not provide enough gain to fully drive an amplifier, which is the primary issue in many cases.  Active or not. 

@soix  a DAC that uses transistors, or tubes for the output stage is not passive, it may not have gain like a preamp, but it's still has an active device for the output.

PS Audio DirectStream works well. I go direct in my secondary system and through a preamp in the main sys.

I have excellent results using a Weiss 202 DAC with volume control direct to my tube amp.  

Sonnet Morpheus at around $2K used or Metrum Jade at even less should both sound pretty good.

VC is implemented by changing the reference voltage so no bits lost.

Try a Teac NT-505x. Safe & Sound sells it with a return policy. I have the older version with an AKM DAC chip and the volume control works great with the few amps(tube and solid state) I’ve tried. The new version uses a Sabre chip and is more to the sound you’re looking for. Mine is a little less detailed. 

Frequently it’s just that the passive preamp sections usually included in the DACs don’t have sufficient output to fully drive the amp it’s hooked up to. As always, it comes down to proper system matching.

@soix Thanks for your reply -- I think that's as good an explanation as I'm likely to find.  The voltage level of the DAC output may be in the right range, but it can't generate enough current to properly drive the amp.  I do own a preamp (Parasound 2100), but I thought it was a weak link, so I'd be better off without it.  Sounds like I may want to keep it around for a while.

@laaudionut  " like everything in our esoteric hobby, "your own results may vary.""

Agree fully, I run a tube pre and tube amp so may have just been predisposed to a certain sound that completely changed when the preamp was removed.  So maybe not bad just different enough for me that I didn't like it.

The HD30 doesn't seem to get much attention but I've demoed several other dacs in attempt to better it and dollar for dollar I haven't found a better unit.

@alan_a , like everything in our esoteric hobby, "your own results may vary". In my case, I connected my HD30 directly to a Coda Model 11 and fed to a pair of PSB Stratus Golds and I was very pleasantly surprised with the sonic results. Perhaps in your experience there was a poor match with the gain level of your amp? I can only attest to the sound quality that I heard. And yes, in may main listening room, I have a Lumin streamer connected to a tube preamp paired with a solid state amp. 

A great preamp with a fixed level DAC has always performed best for me.  There is no substitute for a great preamp, it is more than just a volume control and switcher 

A really good one can transform a system into next level sound quality .   There are so many great speakers and amps not being utilized to their full performance potential because they don't have a great sounding preamp in front of them. 

I am baffled as to why so many otherwise high-end DACs sound so poor when connected directly to a good power amp.

Frequently it’s just that the passive preamp sections usually included in the DACs don’t have sufficient output to fully drive the amp it’s hooked up to. As always, it comes down to proper system matching. Personally, I’ll always use a separate stereo pre as I find it to be a critical component to get the best sound out of my system. But that’s me.

@laaudionut ​​@cheeg   I'm a little surprised with your experience with the Hegel Hd30 without a Pre.  I have an HD30 in my system and I feel it's fantastic DAC but a while back I was chasing some noise in my system so I removed my Pre-amp and went DAC direct for a few days.  It was almost unlistenable with out my Pre amp.  I feel the HD30 with a tube Pre sounds best, I ran a CARY slp05 and just recently changed to an Audio Research REF6.  

This Bel Canto e.One DAC/Pre is definitely worth a look. Bel Canto makes excellent-sounding DACs — I had their DAC3 VB in my system and its sound was near flawless to my ears. But what was even more surprising was how well it performed as a preamp. When comparing it directly with my $2400 Bryston BP-6 stereo preamp I literally couldn’t tell the difference between the two. Not sure how many other DACs could pull that off, but I’d bet not many especially in your price range. BTW, I was using a McCormack DNA 0.5 RevA (getting it back Saturday with full SMcAudio upgrades) and it was an excellent combination.  Hope this helps, and best of luck.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisb10dg-bel-canto-dac-preamp-da-converters

pontus (all denafrips) have fixed outputs, i believe all holo dacs are fixed analog out as well (i am sure i will be corrected if i am wrong on this)

under 2 grand, i would consider

ayre codex (volume knob, but no remote)

soekris 1541 or 2541 (uses apple remote to control volume), excellent sounding unit

stay away from chi fi dacs with volume controls, they are poorly implemented and will strip bits at low volume, making the music sound more mechanical (true also for musetec) - same for rme adi2 (this unit has many many useful features but a quality volume control is not one of them)

I tried this with a Wadia 321 also, but had bad results. I think I got a bad one, because it just was not right. It was just missing depth, size, punch. I returned it.

Then I went to a Schiit Freya+ preamp (no DAC). It was decent, but I ended up selling it.

Currently I have a mid 90’s Wadia 15 DAC that is going directly to my Pass XA60.5s. Call me crazy, but I prefer the Wadia 15s DAC to the Bryston BDA-1 DAC that it replaced. I should say that I only listen to 16/44, so Qobuz and Tidal won't work here. I am very pleased with the results, but I think long term I will return to a preamp in the chain. Probably Audio Research.

The Wadia 321 really did look the part. Very nice looking piece of equipment. Yes it does have a large footprint as mentioned above. Think a large pizza box. I still scratch my head on why this didn’t work out.