DAC diminishing returns

To get the most from the Pontus you need a streamer transport like a Lumin U2 and the Denafrips DDC like an Iris or Hermes running I2S to the Pontus, otherwise you are driving it or even the Bifrost in 2nd gear.

For the record I stream with an Ethernet connection to a raspberry pie 3 with a digihat and a Toslink connection to my bifrost.

This HAT and toslink are a weak link. You’ll get much better quality output from Pi through RCA coax (or better with BNC if DAC has it) from a different HAT like this

https://allo.com/sparky/digione.html

Another option is HiFiBerry DIGI2 Pro

You are looking at this in the wrong way if you are thinking that price makes the difference.  It is how something is designed and built.  We manufacture an R2R 101D tubes DHT DAC with a separate 30lb power supply.  Not all R2R DACs sound like ours does.  Diminishing returns depends on what sound you are looking for.  Clarity, resolution, slam, dynamics, soundstage, separation of vocals and instruments, bass definition, musical, and tone of instruments such as piano, stand up bass, violins, etc.  Until you hear this for yourself, you won't know it.

I just heard our DAC on the new second from the top model of Wilson speakers.  I knew what our DAC sounded like but it was still a new experience to hear our product in a completely different system. We are always learning what makes music sound the way it does.

Happy Listening.

Your music sourse starts at your dac after D&A  conversion 

I have owned many for example from Denafrips aries2 great dac for under $1k 

R2R dacs or Multibit are the original way or doing this and digital has come along way in every respect ,for example from the $1k Aries to pontus, to Terminator2 

peach one is a substantial step up in realism , soundstage ,depth,resolution and imaging , diminishing returns once you get up to over $6-$8 k 

to double that in cost very much lower Sonic return  my  brother has $18k and $34 k DCS dacs yes they are for sure better ,but not that much better maybe $10-15% better which is noticeable ,but  can easily live with say a Denafrips terminators2,plus version or Holo springs KTE may3 , that is the sweet spot ,

even in the $2k range respectable .

Thank you for all this great advice.  Seems that the consensus is buy a better DAC.  In this price range, more money better sound.  For the record I stream with an Ethernet connection to a raspberry pie 3 with a digihat and a Toslink connection to my bifrost.  Volumio software.
I can afford much more, put sometimes I’m to frugal.

With any luck the new Dac may push the rest of the system to it’s limits. Then you realize how much really like the upgrade. but soon ya just want more. Then you upgrade, buy a sub, cables then upgrade xyz. So you tell me.

Does the significantly higher cost justify what might be a marginal increase in sound quality? Is buying a more expensive DAC for better sound just splitting hairs, and making you feel better about your system? Are different DACs just different coloration of the sound?

Only you can say. How far do you want to go? Keep in mind that its about the music, not the equipment and you’ll be alright. When you get to your destination, you buy less and less and enjoy

@carlsbad: "It seems like "just music"...."

Seems an odd choice of words.  While I don't think it is what you meant, most people would take a system sounding like "just music" as quite the compliment.  😉

@gdnrbob ​​​​@steakster

seems to me the best advice of all, for all those pursuing system improvements -- in a system one is already enjoying -- for whatever reason, is...

try it in your own system -- ideally without irreversibly committing to the cost of the item -- then be honest with yourself, can you hear a real improvement? if not, move on, just enjoy the music

other people might, or say they do... but that hardly matters, right?

I will say that, yes, you can hear differences between DAC's.

I don't know what other DAC's you have listened to, but comparing the Schiit Bifrost to, say the Gungnir or Yggy, it is easy to hear the difference in sound quality.

If you have compared those two and haven't noticed a difference, then I would say you shouldn't spend more money on DAC's.

Bob

op

I don’t want to be duped into buying something I don’t really need.

no one wants to dupe you... successful 'duping' usually requires cooperation of the 'dupee'

try stuff you are curious about in your own system, buy with return privileges, or demo a better dac if possible, or borrow from a friend -- no one can listen for you... if you can't hear a difference, then that box is ticked, just enjoy the music...

Love my border patrol r2r dac with tubed power section, all the dac I’ll ever need. Although, still have and use my Musical fidelity v90 dac to connect my topping bc3, my kenwood md1050 mini disc recorder, and my grace digital link streamer....all connected to the v90....pretty cool.

IMO, one should purchase dac superior to rest of setup, upgrade rest of system over time to experience full potential of dac, I'd never want to purchase dac inferior to rest of system. I like to maintain dac as superior piece, once I sense I've reached full potential, time to change out. This especially true with streaming, where a multitude of upgrades easily available.

I agree with ghdprenice ,  it's all relative to your system and future goals.   That holds true no matter the component.     I am a regular guy, there is no way I could assemble a great system overnight .  That said every upgrade should be more than subtle , or maybe that's not the component that should be replaced.   

Best example for me is my Zesto preamp.  That WAS the right component to buy at the time because the difference was so pronounced and appreciable by anyone who heard it .   Could I afford it new? No. But I got a great deal on a demo so it was worth every penny.  It will be my last pre for a while because in my system my preamp was the bottleneck.   Now any upgrades moving forward are fully realized.

Today chipsets are very , very good.  It's the way it's implemented and really at the end of the day how it sounds in your system.  A good dealer is invaluable and will let you take a demo unit home to evaluate.    That is my preferred way of upgrading.   A lot less trial and error.   

R2R DACs do not sound the same as chip DACs. A Denfrips will not sound much of anything like a Chord.

Personally, I much prefer R2R DAC's and don't much care for the Chord sound, but for some people it's the opposite, and it's nothing to do with 'trendy', 'Apple', or 'Starbucks'. (I'd hardly call companies like these that have been successful for generations 'trendy', but maybe for some people, they are).

See if you can hear both (not necessarily Denafrips and Chord, but some good R2R and some good chip DAC) and see which, if either, you prefer.... 

Incremental investments in a DAC are completely dependent on your associated components and your anticipated future. So if I had your current DAC in my system (my average component cost is $20K), then upgrading it would provide huge differences each time until I got into roughly the range of my other components. Performance goes up with cost in general.

With the components you have today a Yggdrasil or Denfrips are likely to be valuable upgrades. Now consider you future system. I don’t think I saw info on your streamer. But assuming you are using a PC or Mac… I would upgrade the streamer after the DAC… that should give you a big improvement.

Lets say your current system cost $7K, then if you carefully upgraded all your components one level up, say to the total cost of $14… it would sound a lot better…. If you upgraded to $21K… or $50K, etc… each step would provide a big jump in overall performance. Is this what you see long term? Typically most folks get there by upgrading one component at a time.

If so, then each upgrade should be done with your eye on the next level… matching all the components on that level. This would suggest spending more than just to reach parity with the rest of your equipment.

I bought my current DAC after listening in store and in home.    The analog stage of a DAC is more important with respect to sound quality in my opinion.  Unlikely I will ever use DSD codecs so I bought a non OS DAC with tube analog stage.   

I listened to several below, at and above my budget.  No two sound alike in a very resolving system.   Some are subtle differences some are more pronounced.   In the end pick the one that sou ds best to you .    

You don’t mention which streamer you are using, give this critical component consideration along with the DAC. I have seen significant gains by upgrading mine. 
 

Almost impossible to answer.  Some people would happily pay thousands for a change others (sometimes, significant others) might find imperceptible.

The DAC is your most fertile ground to seek sound improvements in your system. Coincidentally, I have a Schiit Bifrost II. I highly recommend this DAC in it’s price range. I bought it while shopping for a "flagship" DAC.

After lots of research I tried some Chord DACs and eventaully bought their top of the line Dave DAC. I have since added an M-scaler.

I left yesterday for a vacation and loaned my Dave and M-scaler t a friend. I switched back to the Bifrost II for background music while I finished packing up. I was pleasantly surprised that I didn’t find it unlistenable. Nice and clear and solid. But no soundstage. Much less detail, and no grain. It seems like "just music" after moving back from a setup that costs over 20x the price of the BFII.

So good luck and enjoy the ride.

Jerry

PS  Denefrips is as trendy as Apple or Starbucks.  good but in my opinion overrated.

dsfreeh, 

You determine value through listening in your system. Some hear differences between components and make the determination that it's worth the cost. Other's will hear improvements and determine it isn't worth the cost. 

Having owned one, I agree with others that you will likely experience a worthwhile difference with an upgrade to a Denafrips Pontus. However, note that there is a related, yet to be resolved micro-skipping issue which affects at least some users.

The issue is worrisome because it has been known for quite a long time now, and seems unlikely to be resolved using a firmware solution. The issue relates to CD use, and an apparent buffering problem relating to the Pontus clock.

@dsfreeh 

DAC chips definitely have reached the stat of diminishing returns.  However when you buy a DAC (or CD / digital player) you buy much more than the chipset.  You buy an analog amplification section that converts the digital output into a useable analog signal. 

It is the parts and circuitry within the analog amplification section that makes a DAC / digital player sound superior.  

Look "under the hood".  You want to see big r-core or toroid transformers and a good set of storage and filtering capacitors.  

What this gives you in a DAC or player is a more robust, clean dynamic exciting sound.  

It is the difference between a dull anemic sound that just sits there in basic DACs and players that is not a diminishing return.  Listen for a muscular sound that is more like live music.  .  

I wouldn’t say that upgrading is "being duped", as if all dacs sound the same and anyone who upgrades is just falling for a myth. But, as stated above, you personally may not hear any improvement in upgrading your dac, or the improvements you might hear do not justify the price, in your opinion. If you are near a dealer, I recommend you bring your dac in and let them do a demonstration for you, directly comparing your dac to something more expensive and see if you can appreciate the difference, if any. I would also suggest you listen to something you consider to be out of your price range, just to see what’s out there. If there are no dealers near you, you will just have to try one and see. Duh. But I would buy something with a return option, which I am not sure Denafrips offers. But the dealer option is a better idea for really learning about equipment upgrades. If you are looking for a recommendation, I am really impressed with my Heed Abacus dac, which is about $1400 I think.  Check out the online reviews, which are extremely positive and echo my impressions of this DAC very accurately.  

@dsfreeh IMHE, it’s worthwhile. I’ve been through many dacs over many years, but will be most relevant for you is that I’m writing this while listening to my Pontus II which replaced a Schitt Gungnir Multibit. The Pontus is significantly better overall and in a number of areas. Spatial cues, untangling of complex passages and microdynamics are examples. But most importantly, an ability to let you relax and take in the music vs. just analyzing the sound, which leads to craving more listening.

FWIW, I agree that your gear is good enough to allow you to hear these kinds of distinguishing factors.

There’s some used ones out there too. Cheers,

Spencer

Since so much of what can be discerned depends on your ears and the rest of your system, getting a DAC on trial and comparing seems the only way to go.

Significant and increasing returns at the DAC level you are considering. 

The DAC is a critical component and they do not all sound alike.  We don’t know what your previous DAC experiences have been.  I don’t know your speakers but the rest of the system ought to be able to resolve improvements in DACs.

  I have not heard your present DAC or the Denafrips but I would be surprised is the latter is not significantly better than the former.  The best route is to use your own ears, if it is at all possible to audition the DF in your own system.  If not, see if there is a return policy.  You may have to pay some sort of restocking fee