georgie, you fall for that every single time.
Class D amps seem poised to take over. Then what?
I am certainly biased by my lifetime final amp being a Class D. But I know that after 30+ years of development, Class D seems to be on a high plain. I know there are now many, many companies focusing on Class D and, maybe, a good handful already as good as it gets. My Class D amp is as smooth and beautifully musical as a great tube amp and as punchy and detailed as a great SS amp. I am satisfied and done with my search. A class D amp has effectively taken me off the amp merry-go-round. It’s about time after 50 years. And, for me, this Class D is a milestone. Will all other classes of amps fade away?
329 responses Add your response
The "R"word gets thrown around so much anymore it loses its weight. A cloudy day is a result of systemic racism for Pete’s sake. Anyway, I LOVE my Wyred 750 LE. Yes, I even enjoy it more than my previous First Watt F7. I know that’s not going to go over well with most but it is what it is. I noticed my electric bill went significantly higher with the F7. A lot of times I leave the house two or three times in the day and I really don’t feel like shutting an amplifier off. If it’s class A, I certainly don’t feel like leaving it on for days. With my Wyred, I can. |
Hmm I have owned Class D, Class A, Class AB and there is zero chance I will ever use classe d in my main rig again. Class-D makes the music sound quantized with unnatural edges to the music. Good video unrelated on how quantization has messed up music. https://youtu.be/AFaRIW-wZlw |
I’ll just drop this stereophile.com review here. I wish I could show you a picture of the old Carr Street Sugden Factory in Cleckheaton, West Yorkshire, UK—or let you feel how warm the heatsinks were on the Sugden A21 SE pure class-A integrated amplifier ($3250) that powered the DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/93 loudspeakers ($8400) in the room John DeVore shared with Sugden’s importer, Jonathan Halpern of Tone Imports. (The original A21 was the world's first production pure class-A transistor amplifier!) Trust me folks, class-D is like fake cocaine compared to the rolling, relaxed, shroom-like beauty of the Sugden A21 SE’s midrange. It was the end of the day: John and Jonathan knew I was revved up but that I’d relax when they played one of my all-time favorite songs, “Raining in My Heart,” by Slim Harpo. Slim’s harmonica was oozing Crayola colors while his words put darkness in my chest. I loved it—and I started to chill—but just a little. I needed more records and sweet sounds. |
Mrmeanor, by now, you should know better than to put all the products from individual classes (be the A, AB, SET, OTL) into one opinion, especially since you only included the Sudgen amp I have owned quite a few class D amps over the last 2 decades. Assessing them in hindsight, my entire system has improved exponentially, rendering any of my negative opinions moot. The more current improvement was replacing the cable between my power supply moded Oppo 105 and Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 dac/pre with a $59 Pangea Premier Coax cable. That said, it likely would not have made the improvement that it has in my systems of old. My class D amp of nearly 2 years now is a EVS 1200 based on dual mono IcePower modules and a lot of Ric Schultz pixie dust. These are same modules in the later introduced PS Audio M1200s, but without Rics magic |
@mglik- "Then what?" It won't be too long, before everyone will be interconnected to a central hub or a Cloud, of some sort, via Nano-technology. https://interestingengineering.com/nanobots-will-be-flowing-through-your-body-by-2030 https://www.forbes.com/sites/cognitiveworld/2018/10/01/human-2-0-is-coming-faster-than-you-think-wil... http://human20.com/tag/nanotechnology/ (don't skip the, "Read more" of the first segment, then: go back and read Human Body 2.0) How long can it be, before people (thus connected) are experiencing sound within the cranium*, independent of external equipment? *Outside of those echoes, many in here must experience, that is! |
To wake up and see that Admin had a knee jerk reaction to the unfounded claims of racism from a pair of losers sickens me. And they still have georgie's post up in the matter. After losing so many arguments in the past on the simple matter of fuses only to see georgie jump in from left field on a discussion of Class D amps to join in with earlflynn, who's still pissed off from his lame attempts to protect MC when he went off the rails on another thread, shows more than a troubling trend. Neither one had anything to add to the discussion and just dog piled on me for revenge's sake. Then to have Admin fall for the asinine, hail mary claim of racism against me speaks volumes for their ineptness. Their quotes of what I said had no racism whatsoever in them. If it was their intention to just clean things up, why leave georgie's slanderous comment up at the top of this page? Both of these are unstable characters, yet Admin seems to want to play the hand of least, true moderation for the sake of, what? I certainly don't understand. When bullies are bested at their game with good doses of humor, it seems to enrage them, but hey, that's my style. I never opt to go as low as they do, which seems to make them only mad as hatters. Having Admin mess things up even further puts a real sour note on the whole matter. All the best, Nonoise |
Unstable? all I did was ask a question and you keep coming at me. You started name calling and digressed even further. Only bully is you and your persistent attacks. Big fish little pond and it appears to be getting smaller. I will no longer play your hate game. Save your energy composting a retort as no one cares, least of all earlthepearl eating his goulash with a dingo. Need to go do my CAP duty. Regards EF |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
@nonoise or actually All Noise. All our post were deleted. You should really stop with these attacks. I am not hiding and I have been involved with CAP for 20 years and have helped save 31 lives. What have you done? pukeofearl, all Admin has to do is put everything back up and it would show just how big a liar you are. Now you're hiding behind deletions and hoping those who've already read them won't speak up. @tvad all I did was ask a question. @fiesta75 I really do not need any friends like the Pius @nonoise. I live in the real world not some little pond. Well time to go, have to run another simulator. |
I am very sorry to see that this tread has devolved into petty personal. Please bring it back to the subject. Interesting that one of the last CL D threads included many good comments about the Legacy amp. Believe rh67 was going to Legacy to audition it. Any result? And in this thread, the “amp de jour” is the Technics. If I am not mistaken, that integrated is a digital amp not CL D. Anyone ever owned a Spectron Musician? I had one years ago and loved it. It was one of the first CL D but used a big analog power supply with a large toroidal tranny. Had a great grip on the bass and music and sounded very really good. CL D has certainly evolved since the Spectron. Bruno P. Seem to be one of the geniuses of CL D, Alberto G. Of AGD and Ralph K. of A-S coming out with a CL D amp after 3-4 years of development. |
Apologies to mglik, but Earl, if you are going to continually use the word ’pious’, for Gods sake start spellIng it correctly!!! I also find it odd that you continually say you are through, yet you keep coming back for more. It’s simple. See all those keys in front of you with letters on them? Stop pressing them. |
Is that you, skypunk, or is it earlflynn? Easy to get those two mixed up. Good to see you dropped your selfie and have that aeroplane as your new avatar. Nothing like reinventing yourself, I’m told, but I’ve never had to do it. As for my psyche, it’s never been better. Your concern is so touching. Are the meds working now? 😄 All the best, Nonoise |
Admin had a knee jerk reaction to the unfounded claims All noise, when a subject is attacked for being snake oil, voodoo or whatever, that is fair game and keeps the shillers down. But you then retaliate by attacking the poster or in the last case their dog personally. And that’s where the difference is, and why you get deleted more than anyone on Audiogon.🤦♂️ |
So back on topic. As I said earlier I have bought a couple of Class D units by NAD and had kept one for out on the deck. The M-10 I had firmware issues and ran real hot. Would like to try one of the Cantor tubed hybrid class D's though, on paper they look interesting. May just buy a Technics G-700 to hear how it sounds in my system Best regards earlflynn (the one and only) |
Go the far better integrated the SU-R1000, it’s said it also uses the far higher switching speed of 1.5mhz like the flagship SE-R1, which cuts down greatly the switching noise intruding down into the audio band. (class-D’s achillies heel) And Technics is the only one I know of that has exploited this GaN technology feature so far. https://www.stereophile.com/content/technics-presents-discussion-their-reference-class-su-r1000-digi... Cheers George |
All noise, when a subject is attacked for being snake oil, voodoo or whatever, that is fair game and keeps the shillers down.Now georgie, since when is a discussion on Class D a snake oil or voodoo themed topic? You’re all over the place. Haphazard. You're the one who brought up the topic of fuses. But you then retaliate by attacking the poster or in the last case their dog personally.What you need to learn is the ability to recognize snark (humor) when it’s deployed as a means to combat your strangeness. And that’s where the difference is, and why you get deleted more than anyone on Audiogon.🤦♂️Far from it, sunshine. 😄 All the best, Nonoise |
@rocray It is kinda like the Ford vs Chevy, Ferrari vs Lamborghini, Ducati vs Honda (Ducati wins every time). People like what they like and can be quite passionate about a brand or a system. I learned to fly in J3 and love tail draggers with a high wing, others swear by low wing tricycle I gear AC. It’s what you know and what evokes passion, emotion, loyalty. Not numbers on paper or noise in a forum or trade rag. Just my take. |
Hilde45 and douglas_schroeder, Very good points that I routinely notice in others, and previously noticed in myself, when it comes to many individuals' reactions to the sonic and other perceptions of class D amps and new experiences. I've been happily aboard the D train for over a decade now and consider my current class D monos, a pair of D-Sonic M-600s, as the best amp(s) yet to drive my inefficient Magnepan speakers that have had a msrp of under $10K. Please understand, I'm not claiming they can't be bettered by other class D, class A or tube amps. I'm just claiming they represent an excellent solution for a combo music and ht system like mine, especially when considering the multiple benefits of sound quality performance, high power, high electrical efficiency and generally reasonably low prices. Just a few responses to previous posters on this thread: daydream16: " what about class d and difficult loads like magnepans? Are they capable of driving them as well as class a-b. This is the internal debate I am having right now as I am putting my system together with magnepan 1.7’s in mind." I've owned various models of Magnepans and they're not actually a difficult load, mainly stable at just under 4 ohms throughout the entire frequency spectrum. I do think they generally sound more natural, alive and dynamic with increased wattage/power but power is cheap with class D. However, there are significant differences in class D sound quality between amp brands and models. I've found the better ones are distinguished by their smoother midrange and treble performance which typically carry higher price tags, but not always. lucky_doggg7: " When I think Class D, I automatically think of the good stuff like Devialet, Linn Amps, and Bryston (sp?) amps. I have a very nice pair of Audio Research DS450M monos that I really like. These are fairly powerful, meaning 450 wpc into 8 and 650 wpc into 4 so no lack of power there, and since these are ARC amps, I know it’s good stuff. They’re even voiced with the ARC house sound. As an added bonus, they don’t cook the entire place after an hour or two of listening like my Pass monos do so they’re good on electricity use, and low on heat generation." What we're often hearing from many higher priced class A/B and good quality class A amps, are amp designs that intentionally emphasize or overemphasize the even ordered harmonics, which tends to be perceived by humans as a warm coloring added to the music that many individuals prefer. Better class D amps generally have a very accurate, detailed and neutral sound quality, with little to nothing added or subtracted to the musical signals that results in a very high degree of faithfulness to the recorded music. This is something one needs to experience to make sure they enjoy this type of amp design and sound signature, since it equally and accurately reveals good and poor quality recordings without prejudice. You may prefer some added coloring either through the amp or via tubes in the dac or preamp. You won't know for certain until you hear the differences between them with music that you're very familiar with. One more personal and additional musing on my class D amp experiences: I always assumed I preferred a bit of added coloring with my class D amps and originally used a a VTL preamp, with a set of expensive NOS Mullard tubes swapped out for the original OEM tubes, to attain a smoother and more dimensional midrange and treble on my music. I've since discovered I can attain he same result using a high quality, accurate and neutral solid state preamp in combination with my high quality, accurate and neutral class D amps. This does, however, require the compromise of only playing high quality recordings. I don't consider this a deal breaker yet but others may feel otherwise, depending on the quality of their recordings. FWIW, Tim |
What we're often hearing from many higher priced class A/B and good quality class A amps, are amp designs that intentionally emphasize or overemphasize the even ordered harmonics, which tends to be perceived by humans as a warm coloring added to the music that many individuals prefer.Very well said. It's all about the implementation and the expectations. All the best, Nonoise |
You’re the one who brought up the topic of fuses. Yes "fuses and other snake oil" not people, big difference!!!!!! and you bit and attacked me and my dog personally, and yes I consider my Dingo a person. You choose attack the members/people/dog, probably because you have no electronic knowledge you can call on. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Children......go to your room until you know how to play. So much ego, so little agape. Everyone has the ability to choose love at any time.....and every second even. Please choose to only share when you have something that contributes to the advancement of audio and the soul. Every word you think, say and write affects every single person on the planet. That is how powerful we are. May all be blessed....may all find the love and joy that is always present. |
I have had my AGD Vivace amps now for a month or so. I have sold my Luxman M600-a class a 30 watter plus some other ss and tube amps. I did not think it could get better-I was wrong. Try some diff class d amps. I tried some a few years back and that was terrible. The AGD and Merrill companies seem to lead the pack-both sound very good but the AGD is just a step above in my opinion. |
What's after Class D? Well, as usual, probably improvements on what we've got. Sounds like GaN (Gallium Nitride) transistors can handle very high voltages and very high current and very high frequencies. Perhaps useful for class A, A/B, G etc - because they cmight vastly reduce output delta t, so feedback works better - but almost certainly wonderful for D. Much better edges, so fewer errors for the system to compensate for. And, of course, all this hifi stuff is for pleasure. It's nice to know that product X has immeasurable distortion under all circumstances, but of you prefer listening to product Y, then go for it. I prefer Burgundy, but there are those who drink Bordeaux. Neither I nor they word - or rather should - argue that my preference is 'the absolute best'; just that 'I prefer'. It's true that many designers want accuracy first. Good! But if you prefer the sound of something else, go for it. But don't tell me that you're right and I'm wrong for enjoying my Kii Threes. |
Oh, and I had my first class D amp way back when. 1965 or so. The Sinclair X20. http://www.vk6fh.com/vk6fh/sinclairX20.htm Built it myself, I did. If you soldered a short wire to the collector of the driver transistor, you could pick up a distorted version of what I was playing (from a self-electronic'd reel to reel) at intervals all the way up to about 30MHz on the AM band for quite worrying distances. So I put it in a metal box. It had a class A front end, so it must have been good... |
I’ve tried a couple class D units. They were good but not great to me. I’m game to try some more. Anyone try a class G amp? I had a Creek class G. Very cool topology: first 25 watts was all Class A and the switching side kicked in north of that to output 170 watts into 4 ohms. Sounded lovely with PSB Imagine T2s. But I went horns and tubes. |
| Post removed |