China built tube amps

I'm not touching the country of origin discussion, but am surprised to see the Crimson 275 being recommended as late as 1/14 despite the recent test results and under the hood photos. Do we secretly hate the original poster?

Falconcrest, do yourself a favor and pass on this unit. 

when I worked for Ducati Corse and HRC Castrol Honda.

…. you spannerin’ for Nicky?

@sns

I could save some $$$ and buy a programmable remote but that’s not how I roll. Besides if I ever decide to sell the CDP I’ll need the OEM remote in working condition.

@runwell

The open/close button on the remote still works so it’s not the sensor. The tech who’s going to fix it placed an order for multiple circuit boards for these remotes from LM so it’s a known problem. I thought I might be able to disassemble it and clean the circuit board & buttons. But the LM remotes don’t use carbon-coated rubber that is commonly used in other remotes. They have individual tact switches instead. I could have the tech send a circuit board to me but if I muck up the installation then I’m back to square one.

@hifijones  how do you know it is the remote controller problem?

It might be the receive sense or any other problems in the machine itself. Double check and confirm before next step.

For me it’s primarily a moral issue: When was the last time we had a dictatorship putting millions of people in concentration camps because of their ethnicity??

There are a lot of native Americans raising their hands right now.

All the best,
Nonoise

Exactly. Good luck buying a cell phone trying to avoid Chinese built products. Is there a single phone that doesn’t have Chinese products or a Chinese build in it? I think not. Hypocrites.

@hifijones Do you think one of those self learning remotes could be substituted? I too had Chinese dac remote go bad, in my case I found bad solder joint, reflowed, good to go. This only failure I've incurred with Chinese products.

And it is possible that one of these unfamiliar Chinese brands may in fact be good quality. Again, open up and examine.

And oh, by the way, I built a Dynaco clone from kit some years ago, many Chinese parts in that build, and all kit builds for that matter. If one is intransigent on buying Chinese, they should remove all Chinese built parts in everything they own, see how you like your life now. And that dealer should get out of audio business, he's selling Chinese products, just ignorant or in denial.

There is and always has been much injustice in this world, and from every quarter. Moral certitude about these issues is inherently hypocritical in human realm. Faulty rationalizations need be practiced in order for one to not see themselves as part of this system of injustices.

Too funny! A month ago I had the same conversation with that guy via email when I tried to source a new remote control for my Line Magnetic 515CD. His response:

"Sorry to hear that you’re having all these problems. These brands from China are simply garbage. We tried them and had tons of technical issues across the board. Line Magnetic, PrimaLuna, Cayin and on and on and on. Oceans of junk. Getting any assistance from Line Magnetic is pretty much 100% impossible. Contact the dealer that sold it to you that’s probably your best bet. Merry Christmas."

Alrighty then. So I take all this with a large grain of salt. Methinks this fellow had a serious axe to grind, for whatever reason. But I’m pissed that this nice chunky aluminum remote failed in less than 50-hours usage, tops. Replacement remotes are not available because LM is no longer in the CDP business. It’ll cost close to $100.00 parts + labor to repair the remote. Having said that I have no regrets about purchasing the 515CD. It’s still one of my most rewarding buying experiences of the past decade. After all it’s only money.

Dealers with that attitude still exist in 'niche' markets it seems.  Haven't had to stomach it since TX, but it's still around...everywhere...😒

I look at the backs of my hands tapping this out, and I see Beige...not White.

Just another 'popular misconception' that's been around way too long...
The only 'white people' are albinos...

I have a vintage Dynaco ST70 still with the Dynaco tubes in it. Sweet sounds come from this little USA jewel. I also had a pair of the VTA monoblocs based on the Dynacos and man those things were awesome beasts. Swapped the Sovtek  kt88 for some Gold Lions and they were amazing. Both are made or kit built in the US and are quite affordable options.Just one man’s experience. 

Categorizing all Chinese-built tube amps as junk is really painting with a broad brush.  I have bought junk stuff from all over the globe, thank you.  Recently I bought an inexpensive Chinese tubed headphone amp with an onboard DAC; the brand was XuanZu, and it arrived in less than a week to the US and was well-built and sounded great for the $168 I paid for it.  I now have a $3500 Auralic Vega, Chinese built, that is massive and the best DAC I have heard, and a $1000 Quicksilver headphone amp, built not in China according to an earlier post but here in Stockton, CA.  So yes the Auralic and Quicksilver pair sound considerably better but darned well should for 27 times the XuanZu price.  It is good to know that scaling in prices usually, but not always, results in better sound, i.e. there is order in the universe.  I would not hesitate to buy Chinese-built audio products.

Cheap no and I do not have any China built gear in my systems now.

I have had in the past and I have no rub on the China gear.

Prefer US made and EU gear.

I own both China and USA tube amps. Both offer excellent results. All that I own are point to point wired. Not a cheep way to build an amp. Disregard the dealers advice. He is Uneducated regarding quality and affordable tube amps.

Whoa, I like politics as much as anyone but the mods will close this thread if it strays into it. Let's stick with amplifiers. I did some research on the Carvers today but Bob doesn't make an integrated...bummer!

I know Apartheid really bothered me and I had been to RSA several times when I worked for Ducati Corse and HRC Castrol Honda.

Also bothers me is the human rights violations in PRC, Iran, PRK, The House Of Saudi, ..........

@inrealtime 

Did Tibet bother you more or less than Apartheid?

 For the Uyghurs this IS the Holocaust. Complacency is a decision of convenience

@inrealtime 

Does the Holocaust or centuries of the slave trade count?

@inrealtime 

When was the last time we had a dictatorship putting millions of people in concentration camps because of their ethnicity??

Well, not millions, but how about 120K Japanese from 1942-45, here in the US?

We live in a glass house, which you seem to forget.

@inrealtime  Realistically it's impossible to avoid Chinese products.  And if even if somehow the entire world were able to boycott buying their products (tough to believe no country would continue buying the most cost effective products in the world), the result would be massive unemployment to the very oppressed Chinese people who you are supposedly standing up for in the name of morality.  Would they be better of unemployed?  Would the government convert to a democracy as a result of the boycott?

We are all free to do what we like in this regard and I respect your decision.  As a pragmatist I don't think the actions are helpful to the chinese people.

For me it’s primarily a moral issue: When was the last time we had a dictatorship putting millions of people in concentration camps because of their ethnicity??

I also 1  million % heartily agree w/gkr7007 if your going to buy an amp start with Carvers Crimson (or black) 275. for $2750. 5 yrs on everything they pay to ship it back if repairs are needed (almost never) made in USA, plays well above its power rating, tubes stay well below most others heat radiation, you can put your hand on them.  It's a no brain er. No reputable Carver dealer lowers the $2750 price btw,so don't waste time looking, it's an agreement with Bob, everyone sells at the same price

What?   You mean that there are still amps NOT built in China?

Seriously, a lot of very good circuits are now in the public domain and it's many of those circuits that the Chinese use.  The Shure M65 phono preamp is excellent and will run you about $500 or so on EBay.  But you can get a Chinese clone for about $150 fully assembled and less if you're willing to build a kit.  Tubes make a HUGE difference in sound, so if you get a cheap Chinese tube amp, plan on trying other tubes.

Cayin makes good quality tube amps...

Just to be accurate for searchingfor......The Carver Crimson (it also comes in black) 275 has a very high tech board.  The Carver Crimson (also avail in black) 350 is 100% hand-wired and wound in the USA and also almost $7000 more than the 275s. I have the 350s in my main system as some of you know but I also have a pair of PrimaLuna Prologue 6 monoblocks (Chinese built) in my 2nd system.  Now the Sixes are not the 350s re power, sound, etc but they are hand-wired and their quality is excellent.  They are also self biasing so it's fun to roll tubes with them.  As a side note they sound very good with KT88s but really open up in the mid-range with EL34s.  I hate to say it but IM unprofessional O the build quality is very close to my 350s. The sound quality is also very very good driving my MB Quart Veras, (vented speaker), or Epicure 3.0 pyramids which is a sealed speaker..  I don't believe they can drive under 2ohms very easily but very few speakers need that.

As far as tube amp go I have and American made amp and a Chinese amp. Audio Research VSI-60 and a Reisong A-10. Enjoy both very much. If you’re new to tube amps the best way to start is with Chinese made. For about $500 you can get something that sounds excellent as long as you have sensitive speakers 90db or above. The tubes should be rolled as soon as possible because  the tubes they come with are ok but better tubes better sound. 

In 35 years I’ve owned amps from all parts of the world. Have you noticed how small the world has become? Have you noticed how much of your household appliances are made in China or Taiwan?

I’m what you call a risk taker. High risk, high rewards. My last venture was a tube amp from none other than China. There is no US network of dealers, no, none of that jazz. Just you and the builder. I discovered the amp where a small furor was built over it, on YouTube.

There reportedly was a tube integrated amp being produced by a Chinese company called Willsenton. It was $900, plus $300 for shipping. It didn’t have auto bias. No problem for me, or anyone else really. The amp accepted KT88 or EL34 tubes, and produced the usual 45 watts per channel. I needed another tube integrated like I need a hole in the head I thought. I had a similar integrated made by Shuguang. But no, here I go down the rabbit hole again chasing of all things, a YouTube recommendation.

You pay your money and take your chances. This is how the world works. Whether buying a used car, a jazz guitar, on and on. To my surprise my brand new amp arrived triple boxed from China. How do they get a 70 pound amplifier from 3/4 the world away to my doorstep in a week I thought? Nah, must be a piece of junk. But hey, I’ll open the box anyway because as a kid I couldn’t resist Cracker Jacks, to find the surprise inside the box. So what then did I proceed to do? Right, open the box.

I was floored, absolutely floored how beautiful the amp appeared. Remember those pitch black Melody amps from 15 years ago? It was a lot like that. Simply beautiful. Okay it passed the look test. But how would it sound?

Exquisitely packaged including all tubes, I proceeded to set those new Chinese tubes aside for some made in Russia tubes. I had a new 4-some of Genelix KT88’s, and 3 new Psvane CV-181’s as a powerhouse substitute for the stock NS7’s, and a 4-some set of the original upgrade of NOS Sovtek Winged C EL34’s.

Let’s give this thing a workout. Ultra Linear mode here we come. I couldn’t get beyond 11 o’ clock before my volume meter said, whew, that’s high enough. Mind you, I’m driving ML Spirals. Although a kinder load than ML’s of the past they’re nothing to sneeze at. But this modestly built gem simply drove them like any good amp should. A few hours later, it’s time to check out triode mode, only a remote preset away. Click. Whoa!!! And we’re off and running to audio oblivion.

Turns out I was rather late to the party, because a Google search quickly revealed an audio forum that had developed exclusively on this amp. After registering I soon discovered 88 pages of forum dribble of one tube roll to another…and on, and on, and on. The Willsenton R8. Hmmm, I thought.

There’s nothing like discovering something new. Who would have thought? From China no less. Seems like we’ve something in common. Good sound.

I'm on my second Chifi amplifier & have been very impressed both times. The first - a Music Angel Class A - was excellent after an inexpensive tube replacement. A U.S. technician's incompetence killed it. Now I have an early Sophia EL 34 China/U.S. hybrid with which I am very happy.

Today's China Fun Fact: 

China has produced a programmable quantum computer that is 10,000x faster than Google’s Sycamore.

Zuchongzhi 2.1, which takes its name from a historical 5th century Chinese mathematician-cum-astronomer and engineer, is a 66-qubit programmable superconducting quantum computer.

It is reportedly 10 million times faster than the world’s current fastest supercomputer.

Moreover, it can even handle calculations that are 100 times more complex than what Google’s Sycamore can handle.

But ...can they build a proper hi-fi amplifier? :)

I have the Audio GD tube preamp.  And it is nothing short of awesome and is built like a damn tank.  It is a Chinese company.

@veerossi

Re: LM805ia

If you go with one, I’d suggest swapping in some NOS Melz 6SN7’s, a National Union 1940’s NOS 6SL7, PSVANCE ACME 805, and PSVANE ACME 300b tubes. I estimate a 20-25% sound improvement over the original tubes.

Your tube rolling experience is very similar to mine on the LM805ia. I’m using the Psvane ACME 805’s, EML 300-XLS’s, a 1960 Mullard ECC35 (6SL7), and a pair of 1944 TungSol 6SN7GT round plates. 25% sound quality improvement is about right. Such a lovely amp that conveys hauntingly evocative music.

If you are just getting into trying tubes look at the Carver Crimson 275. A giant killer at $2750.  KT 120 power tubes (or it 88 or 6550) gets you all kinds of power.  Five year warranty on the entire unit including tubes.  Change the signal tubes to some NOS and being it up another level.  Bob Carvers proprietary transformer design.  And you can try it out from Jim Clark Stereo with no questions asked 30 day return policy, no restocking fee.  

I own Chinese equipment, and I have no problem with purchasing it. Still, I'd never buy any 845 amp from unknown, dubious Chinese manufacturer, seen these issues for years with 845's. We're running nearly 900 volts here, very demanding of quality parts, design. I'd be wary of some of these push pulls as well.

Less problematic would be lower power tube amps with point to point wiring. I'd always look closely under the hood prior to purchase, get someone with expertise to check for you if not  experienced in these matters.

We see ever improving Chinese equipment over the years, stick to the well known brands, let others  take the risk with the unknown. The good stuff will persist in market, the others will disappear.

I've had lots of experience with Chinese tube gear. In fact, I'm listening to one right now. I will say this. Most, if not all sound muffled and dead. The sound never seems to come out of the speakers. It's as if you placed a large drape over your speakers. Some are better than other but do not compare to US or EU gear. 
They could be a diamond in the rough if you know what to look for and if you know a bit about circuitry. 

Both my pre-amplifier and power amps have been guttered and the circuit redone with better  components and a simpler design.  
In my case, I wanted to build a 845 single ended amplifier and decided to get one from China as a starting point. It was cheaper than getting the parts separately.
There are sites that talks about these modifications such as Tone Lizard and others. But if you're like most, your dealer is right on his recommendations. 

Good luck. 

If you do some rudimentary research and familiarize yourself with basic information and develope an understanding of the "Tube Amp", you will find:

The Dealer will offer you something that is Good.

The majority of Chinese products (recognizable names like Prima Luna, Doge, Caiyn etc) are Good.

Japanese and European designs are Good.

It is up to You to decide what is best for "falconquest".

Someone suggested Dynaco... awsome US stuff... Prima Luna, awesome Chinese product, Atmosphere, great... the list is long and well documented.

Please take your time and read, listen and plan... It is not a Race.

After many years of Dynaco, Eico, Quad and similar large(r) scale  production tube amps, I eventually bought Japanese kits and had them assembled with Maximum quality upgraded parts (transformers, tubes, resistors, cases etc...)

It will take you more than a few years to find what suits You and not what suits The Dealer or Your Friends.

Arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can and Enjoy the Journey

At least you now know which dealer to avoid.

The man’s an opinionated fool.

Lots of wonderful Chinese made high end products.

Not so sure about the ones selling for a hundred bucks on the bay, though.  Although, those may be good, as well.

Good luck and have fun.

I can only speak for my purchase of a Line Magnetic LM-805ia: I am not a dealer or a shill. I purchased it from Pitch Perfect Audio in Palm Desert, CA. I forgot the owner's name, but he is a super, stand-up guy and carries a lot of their amps and speakers. I've had it for almost 2 1/2 years with zero issues and the sound (to me) is better than the Prima Luna (tested both amps with the same Tannoy Turnberry speakers). If you go with one, I'd suggest swapping in some NOS Melz 6SN7's, a National Union 1940's NOS 6SL7, PSVANCE ACME 805, and PSVANE ACME 300b tubes. I estimate a 20-25% sound improvement over the original tubes. My homemade power cord out of Dueland 600v wires and parts connexion plugs made a nice improvement in sound as did my homemade Dueland RCA cables with the Dueland RCA's. Yes, it's possible: you can buy a China amplifier and still have a place to go back to/contact if you experience any issues. From what I remember the main Line Magnetic service/repair/warranty facility is in Arizona. 

If you find an all-American-made amp that can compete with this one's sound, quality, and price please let me know.

I have a unique perspective since I repair Chinese amps along with the more garden variety vintage and new stuff.  Some of the Chinese amps are pretty horrible and should be avoided at all costs.

Here's a fake NCC capacitor.  The logo text is just gibberish.  

This is not how you'd want to see a wire attached.  This particular amp made about half the power it claimed to.

Here are some blown caps on a Chinese 845 amp that hadn't been used very much according to its owner.

This amp also had some fake caps.  These are also fake NCC caps, but with different text inside the logo.  What you have to understand about these parts is that there's no name and no liability behind what's on there.  If you look for the name brand printed on these caps, it's defunct already!

And some wire nuts for good measure!  

I did one round of repairs on that amp and replaced every single electrolytic cap in the amp.  I also discovered that the balancing resistors they used across each cap in the high voltage supply would overheat and fail, and when they failed they would become a dead short and take out the rest of that power supply node (resistors usually fail to infinite resistance, but I think these were encased in metal).  I also warned the customer that I thought the filament rectifier diodes would overheat if he ran the amp for more than 5-6 hours, and after he left it on overnight I got to do another round of repairs to add beefier rectifier diodes.

(Boards I had made to fix the rectifier issue)  After all this work, this amp has been running reliably for a few years now, but the repair costs were more than he paid for the amp.

I had a pair of Shuguang 845 amps come across my bench and one power transformer had a short from the high voltage winding to the 120V mains winding.  I contacted Shuguang and the domestic distributor at the time about purchasing a replacement power transformer and never even received a response! 

I had to have a new pair of power transformers made for these amps and they had to be bigger to meet the specifications of the amp, so they wouldn't fit under the transformer shrouds.  This was a very costly repair for the customer and his amps were out of commission for three months while I waited for the power transformers to arrive.  

Having brought all this up, I have seen Cayin/Yaqin amps in here that measured pretty well, weren't insanely difficult to work on, and would likely give pretty long service life.  I have no idea what parts availability is like for any of this stuff, and that alone would have me recommending a used Rogue, VAC, or something Dynaco based where there's a wealth of knowledge and reproduction parts available.  

I have also been inside a few Line Magnetics amplifiers and saw absolutely nothing in terms of the parts they were using that looked anything other than 100% genuine and carefully chosen. 

What's worse than those cheapo Amazon Chinese amp? Your dealer!

There are many angles to analyze the situation.

1. You went to a dealer which doesn't stock good Chinese amps and ask about it. Many audio dealer these days aren't any better than used car salemen. To put an analogy, you don't walk into a Ford dealer and ask them how good Honda's are. You won't expect them to tell you go to the Honda dealer nextdoor. They will of course tell you their cars/amps are better, that's their job!

2. Chinese amps comes in a whole spectrum of quality. There are the $400 300B tube amp from Amazon, and there are the good quality, Line Magnetic, Cayin, Willsenton, Prima Luna. I have a couple of LM amps and they sound great if matched with the correct speakers. If you look inside, the build quality is also top notched. Surely there are crap ones, but you just need to weed them out and don't generalize. Generalizing from solely looking at the poorest quality product is very commonplace these days, and it means that you will miss out on the better products.

idiotic blanket statement like ’All amps made in China are junk’

+1 idiiotic blanket statements are what they are, no matter at whom they are directed..

I bought a Cayin CS-55A from Musicteck a NJ dealer for $2000. They provide tech support .I have tried a number of different tubes and am using the KT-88 Gold Lions, It sounds fantastic! If you want to get one from amazon check out the Musishare or Willsenton. They have multiple reviews on YouTube. I think the famous Doge 10 is also now available  directly from China.

@falconquest Yep, that's the same dealer I communicated with as well.  I knew it.  He carries both Ayon and Atma-Sphere (among others) so the recommendations make sense - both are great brands but there is no place in this market to disparage entire country's products.  He will never get my business.

@falconquest ,

Looking at some of the prices for the amps you listed, I see they are well north of $2500.

How much power do you need?

bob

The dealer told me to buy Ayon or wait for it.........Atma-Sphere! I told him sure, I would love to buy those amps, but that was way more than I wanted to spend on my first tube amp in my second system. I get the whole buy American thing for serviceability but you have to match the gear to the customer. You can't sell a $10,000.00 piece amp to someone wanting to spend $2500.00 or less. 

Leave Hyundai out of it smart guy. Try Yugo.

Apos is as good as Amazon, fresher stock (DHL from China), better (match) prices, painless returns. He sent me a shipping label for the only piece I was dissatisfied with.

I currently have an American made tube amp. It's excellent.

I used to have a SS amp from China. It was the best amp I ever had.

I'd say run...don't walk...to another dealer. This guy sounds like a clown.

@falconquest The dealer you spoke with seems to me one I would not wish to deal with. I agree with those saying country of origin need not be the only criterion for product selection. I would want US based service facility for non domestic products however.  I have had tube gear from Jolida (parts and boards sourced from China, product put together in USA, great service),  Line Magnetic (China based  company with US service and dealer network), and Aric Audio (USA owned small company selling direct). Like yourself I am approaching tube amplification as a learning experience. Started with PP designs. 

Prior to making suggestions for tube integrated amplifier companies to search out I have a couple questions. What speakers are you planning on driving with the proposed tube integrated amplifier? What is your budget for said amplifier?

A couple of years ago I inquired with a dealer who had a used Line Magnetic amp listed on his website (he otherwise did not carry the LM brand). He tried to discourage me from buying his listed amp and stated the following in an email back to me:

In my opinion and my experience, the gear out of China is inferior and we had way too many technical issues. The sound performance is also disappointing. We recommend that you buy USA, European or Japanese, Only.

I wonder if we are all talking about the same dealer here? These comments were completely off-putting and I ended up purchasing a brand new LM805ia from an authorized dealer. The LM has been flawless and is my favorite amp in my stable by a long margin.

I don't have a tube amp but I can give you a dealer recommendation. Gig Harbor Audio (Gig Harbor, Washington near Tacoma) carries Line Magnetic and Eric is a great guy to deal with. I've heard a couple of the LM tube amps at his showroom and they sound wonderful. If I eventually buy a tube amp I will definitely buy it from a dealer because I can be more confident that the gear is durable. Dealers are not in the business of making enemies by selling lousy gear.

Gig Harbor Audio