Bluesound Node 2021 DAC - I sold my Denafrips Ares II

I usually make do with what i have and can afford, I ran the bluesound node / Ares via USB (audioquest cinnamon usb was on sale) using deezer hifi and Amazon HD… the RCA out goes through an Analog Rotel RE 860, the RCA out is split into 2 : they go into 2 identical AVRs Yamaha RX V640 RDS (using DVD digital input instead of the analog CD) I do this because a samsung s95b is connected to the bluesound for home theatre purposes. a Kef psw1000 is connected to the blusound as well as the avr 1. Avr 1 is a 6.1 system with rock solid speakers in fronts and sony ht golfball speakers as surround (X3) Avr 2 is identical. they both have B speakers (4 in total also rock solids) so 14 speakers and 2 subs (the other subwoofer is just a philips woox tech in AVR 2)

 

 

my reference tracks are Kaya 40th anniversary- bob marley, david bowie space oddity and take a look around by limp bizkit for the ride and cymbals.

 

while RE860 is on bypass mode no eq

 

the denafrips performs very well than the bluesound as everyone describes

 

purely by accident that i discovered by maxing treble and half bass on the Blusound app (while using the internal DAC) and turning On the equalizer to Normal mode that i would achieve a the sound i was looking for. I could hear all the guitars so clearly and that as a drummer i was satisfied with the realistic sound of metal cymbals, hi hats and bass drum. 

 

Lynch mob and cypress hill sound as ive rediscovered something id enjoy…. even further the 2000 ma neyo, nellie, flo rida (low)tracks were too my liking

 

Megadeth (psychotron) and mettalica enter sandman was bright as i wanted.

 

i could not achieve this with denafrips ares ii because it dis not have that extra tone boost.

 

volume set -65 yamaha is not that loud. the analog eq provided a volume boost that I DONT understand. It Just matched well with the n130 settings with sub. 

 

all equipment are second hand from Thrift shop except for the Node and DAii (ebay)

 

the bluesound will be staying. the audioquest cinnamon usb is in its way back to amazon.

 

I just installed the Node to a Mcintosh C29 streaming Qobuz it sounds sweet.

 Those who are pairing Bluesound Node with Ares II and are wondering if they can have a better sound by changing the streamer, I just A/B my Node 2i with an Ifi Zen Stream I purchased today: there is a noticeable improvement in sound. It's more open with much stronger bass with the Ifi. However, Bluesound has the best app, so it's a matter of what is important for you: sound or app

 

mybpcreditcard
 

Hi, 

Just one last share from me in this thread; not related to the Ares II but the Node and the effect of using its sub-out and inbuilt crossover. 

The REL was a new experience for me, I've never owned a Subwoofer before. That was an eye (or ear) opener in and of itself, but initially I hooked it up via the Nait 5si speaker outputs and the hi level connection on the REL, which was great, no problem. Took a bit of trial and error blending the REL in with my mains, but no headaches. 

But the thing that got me here in the first place; playing around with the cross-over in the Node was something I really wanted to try. I tried the first connection method, because that's what REL recommend, and this seems to be the majority consensus.

I lived with this for a while, but like an itch you have to scratch, I really wanted to try the low level RCA connection, from the Node, utilising its subwoofer settings/crossover.

Found a pre-owned 5m Chord Clearway sub RCA lead from you know where, for a steal and set everything up.

I'm not going to say that the low-level connection is better than a feed direct from the amp, probably not, but I didn't set out to compare. What I wanted to explore was what effect cutting the LFs from my amp/speaker's workload would have. To me, after tweaking the REL crossover/volume settings, and getting it to blend with my mains, with a Node crossover at 80hz, the bass reinforcement I was getting just sounded great to me.

The real surprise for me (this is probably old news to most vets on Audiogon, but a fresh experience to me), was the change to what I was now getting from my Quads, obviously due to the decreased workload on my amp, and also the Quads.

To be honest, I was shocked. I won't spout a load of hyperbole, just to say, the Quads just seemed to be working more effortlessly, they sound less uptight, if that makes any sense whatsoever. Added some clarity & smoothness. I find it really difficult to vocalise this stuff while at the same time trying not to sound full of BS. Hope I've succeeded 😊

Anyway, thanks so much for everyone's thoughts and for sharing your experiences, I've really enjoyed it. Happy listening! 👂👍😊

 

I've had a original Node2 for 5 years now, and it has been mostly glitch free. It had a few connection problems in the beginning, but with successive updates from Bluesound, it has been running perfectly.  My suggestion  to all Node users is to get any and all updates when offered. 

I had a Node 2 since 2017 and it recently bricked, and it is apparently quite an expensive repair, so Lenbrook offered me a replacement at a discount which I took them up on. I'm pleased with the sound of the new NODE. I gave it a good listen just last evening. I'm using a NAD C388 integrated amp with an internal Node 2i expansion card and the outboard NODE sounds slightly better to me. I also recently purchased a pair of the new KEF R3s which I am using in conjunction with a pair of Martin Logan 12" powered subs equipped with built-in ARC. I had the system cranked last night for about an hour or so and I can say that I am immensely satisfied with my selections for a change. 

@painter24 Yes indeed, reached out to Alvin and he confirmed that the USB out on the new node is the best way to hook it up. He said the coax out on the node may not be compatible with the denefrips in high res possibly due to a lower the normal voltage output, however I heard a significant drop in sound quality on anything streamed whether high-res or CD quality. When using the USB out from the node, the data retrieval is handled by the dac, and since the dac is of a higher quality it will result in better sound quality. When using the coax out on the node, the dac now has to try to correct the information and apparently is not doing a great job of it due to incompatibility issues. Hence the lower sound quality when using coax. This obviously could all change if using a different streamer. 

 

 

This is a great thread.  I have a newer node 2i with an USB output.  I hooked up an Ares II with a good quality coax cable and noticed a significant reduction is sound quality.  I could have come to the conclusion that the Ares II is a POS, but....., I hooked it up to my older SACD player and heard a very significant improvement in sound quality.  The USB sounds like it might be the solution to the problem.  Thanks to all of the commenters. 

Thanks for the correction. On a side note it would be helpful if people gave their impressions based on what OS filters used or if using NOS.

IME, each setting is like having another DAC.

@seanheis1,

 

Just a small correction to the filter settings you recommended for the Denafrips Aries ll. The slow and sharp filters are only accessible in OS mode. You can't access the filters in NOS. ;-)

 

My experience with the bluos dac streamer may be of relevance to you. I have the NAD 368 integrated amp with the bluos module from 2021.   Used it as an amplifier and as a dac preamp feeding spectral power amp.  Excellent dac and stable platform.  Was getting a new cartridge when I heard  my first r to r dac playing.  It was the most analogue digital component i had heard, and I’ve heard break the bank dcs stacks.  It came with an 8k price tag.  Read all I could on these dacs including yours.  I had a credit with underwood and had a credit with underwood hi. Bought the audio gd r 7, with a plan to put together more money and look for used models of the first dac . No need for the upgrade, and honestly have spent little time with my vinyl rig.  Not cheap at 3500.  Sounds best with usb, but toslink works very well .  You have multiple options for native or or oversampling as well as filters to tune it to your liking.  Could have been happy with bluos, but a higher level r to r is worth a demo 

rob

@painter24 - Living in Britain you have the advantage. There are not many guys that will "upgrade" a NAIM in Canada, so I had to go through the distributor

Not sure if this is the cause, but I left my amp on 24/7 since I heard Naim recommended this approach - wouldn't do that again

Know what you mean about the cables - I was very disapointed with all NAIm cables/connectors, so I made my own - they work much better and specs are well within tolerances for NAIM amps.

Happy Listening - enjoy

@williewonka Hi Steve, the 5si was fresh from the Naim factory in September to my dealer. I had a demo unit on loan for a couple of months until the new stock arrived. 

Yep, the unit will probably need re-capping after x number of years, my dealers parting words when I picked up my new unit was, "see you in 20yrs".

I know it was tongue in cheek, but if I get 10 to 20 years before I have to re-cap; for me personally, that's fine. I live in England, so not too much hassle, plus there's a company called Witch Hat Servicing ran by ex-Naim engineers in England that also carry out repairs and upgrades on Naim gear, I believe they are less expensive. They also make 2 alternative speaker cable lines as alternatives to the NACA4 & 5

 Kind Regards

 

@painter24 - I meant to ask - how old is the Nait 5si?

I had a Nait 5i from new

It came with a built-n "design feature" - you have to replace the power supply Caps after 10-12 years.

I had mine 10 years and they stoped the amp from working

• you have to send it back to the distributoe
• Pay them arouns $300 US to fix it
• turnaround time about 3-4 weeks - without an amp

Just thought you should be aware about that "feature"

Whilst I loved the sound of the 5i - this feature put me right of Naim as a brand i.e. for amplifiers, so I sold it and moved on to a Bryston

• same great dynamic neutral sound BUT with much better imaging
• AND a 20 year warranty 👍

At the time it was a toss-up between the Bryston and the Sinaudio Moon

Regards - Steve

Thanks again for the all the thoughts and insights. There have been a couple of posts which I feel could explain why I came to the conclusion I did.

@jin78 you’re the 2nd poster, I think, who has highlighted that there maybe a compatibility issue between the Node and Denafrips DACs through coax. I think someone also mentioned Alvin himself had confirmed this?

@rhljazz also made a good point on Page 1 regarding the fact that all outputs on the Node are active; so a/b’ing with ICs from the Ares II, and the Node fed in to my amp simultaneously could have been flawed, and probably was not an accurate method of comparing the two DACs.

I’m enjoying reading all the different angles people are coming from with this, I’ve gained some knowledge and insights I was previously ignorant of.

@zoophaugus you could also be accurate in pointing out I may have jumped the gun by selling on the Ares II. In hindsight, if I was armed with the knowledge the contributors to this thread have given me, I may not have acted as soon as I did.

But, 🤔 I do think at this point in time, a sub was of greater benefit to the overall sound of my system, and the Ares II paid for it £ for £. So I’m left with a little feeling of not regret exactly, but "yeah ok, maybe I was hasty"

Moving forward from this, as mentioned, my next step is to mod the Node with the Teddy Pardo kit and PSU. People who have modded their Node with this and similar 3rd party upgrades, only seem to have had positive experiences.

After this,........ Nothing! I’m going change my mindset, sit back and hopefully just enjoy what I have. I do love the fundamentals of my system; Nait 5si and Quad S2s, and of course, the recently added REL and what they give me.

Thanks again guys, very much appreciated

 

 

Bluesound Node is ahead of it’s time. PLUS, it’s an all inclusive PreAmp… my headphone never sounded better out of its jack, then into balanced AAA 789… incredible! Four Stars

I owned a Node2i for a few months. It is a capable little streamer combo for the money. But I found it to be an inferior source component (transport) when coupled with a higher end DAC.

I believe the original poster jumped the gun here.

To be honest I have not heard the Ares II, BUT I suspect the Ares II was NOT able to show its true colors due to the Node's deficiency to act as a high quality TRANSPORT for the DAC. This is why the OP came to the conclusion that the Ares II was at par with the Node's on board DAC and a waste of time.

Just my 2 cents.

At least his wallet is happy.

@joshindc The problem was that even though he was using high quality coax cables, there is an incompatibility issue between the bluesound node and denefrips dacs when feeding with coax cables. Even on the newest version of the node, this issue exists. I know because I have the same node that he has. I was trying to figure out why the Pontus wasn't sounding awesome after nearly a week of break-in. Another couple of members suggested I try USB connection. I grabbed a cheap USB cable and as soon as I hooked it up BOOM huge difference. I reached out to Vinshine who distributes denefrips and it was confirmed that this is a known issue. So moral of the story is, if you have the old bluesound node 2i, don't pair it with denefrips or upgrade to the newest node with USB outs or other streamer. 

@painter24 

I don't know if you saw my earlier posts but trust me man, this is probably why you were unimpressed. Again, I didn't have the Aries, I have the Pontus. But I would hope to think that the Aries is an upgrade to the internal dac of the Node. I'm not trying to discredit the Node, it's a great product especially for the price but the denefrips Pontus easily topped it. 

 

 

Regarding Denafrips Ares, to get the euphonic hi-fi sound, I believe you need to select NOS and Slow filter settings. 

If you select OS (over-sampling) and sharp filter, you will get excellent measured performance, but it will likely sound like chip DACs that use default filters chosen for their linearity...and if that's what you want, you can buy a Schiit Modi 3 for $99.

One thing is for sure, those REL Tx5s are the best subwoofers you can buy for that amount of money. End of discussion. I have 4 of them for two different systems. Changed my audio world.

 

@williewonka thanks for your post.

I’ve recently started using an AQ NRG-Z2 C17 PC, which has made a nice difference.

As for ICs, we’ll, I’m a bit of a hoarder; I posted earlier in the thread, I buy used or stock clearance from that auction site. I currently have a pair of VDH The First Ultimate MKII plugged in, which I really like, they will be staying there for the foreseeable.

@joshindc ​​​​​​

I’ve never heard the Node 2i so I can’t comment on how that sounds with the Ares II. But what other issues do you feel I could have had?

I was using 1 of 3 digital coax RCA cables;

Wireworld Silver Starlight 7

QED Reference Audio 40

VDH The First {the first iteration of this line)

Regards

@jaudio1 I have a Bluesound Node and it does actually have a USB out. Perhaps it is a different model than you are referring to, but worth knowing.

Interesting. Maybe you've already answered this but would be good to know how you connected the Node to the Ares II. The optical toslink will always sound subpar so definitely avoid that. Then the choice is between USB and coaxial, and I've been told USB is the way to go (see 

)

I had a Bluesound Node 2i running into a Denafrips Ares 2 with a coaxial cable. Was about to upgrade to the 2021 Node so as to have USB output when I came across the ifi Zen Stream. I've had the Zen Stream for 2 weeks now, running into the Ares 2 with a USB cable, and I can say it's a very big improvement over the Node 2i: less noise, bigger/deeper soundstage, and greater clarity. I also have a LPS on order and will post a review/thread once that arrives.

In any case, while I'm sure the onboard DAC in the Node is good, I think you must have had some other issues that prevented the Ares 2 from outperforming the onboard DAC (unless you don't like the sound of R2R DACs like the Denafrips).

 

This thread is the type for which I have been coming here for years even before joining.

Now I must convince my wallet I need to try a new DAC!

@painter24 - the posts above seem to be a mix of Add a DAC or DAC Not equired

There are a few mentions about the digital cables to connect the two with, but I see no mention of how adding Interconenct cables and power cables to the Node 2i has any impact - until this post.

I have owned a Node 2 and now the Node 2i for several years and have tried many difference cables i.e. both power and Interconnect

ALL the Bluesound products I have tried (I now own three) have responded extremely well to good Power cables and Interconnects for the Node 2i

I use an ethernet connectoin on two of them and Wifi on the Pulse Mini speaker

The Power and Interconnect cables elevated the Node 2i to performance levels that surprised me, trouncing my Bifrost performance (which also had great cables) by a considerable margin.

If anyone wants to "improve" the performance of their Bluesound products take a look at these cables

• Zavfino cables - they provide great sound for a reasonable price
• or the Helix DIY cables http://image99.net/blog/ - which are extremely good and a little more affordable

I believe you would need to add a very good DAC in order to compete with the Node2i when connected with great cables!.

Just another opinion

Regards - Steve

 

I ran the Node2 for about a year with no external DAC (BAT VK-5i tube preamp & BAT VK-600 w/ bat pack solid state amp) feeding my Apogee Acoustics Duetta II Signature full range ribbon speakers. I then upgraded by adding the MHDT Orchid tube DAC (with a Silnote Audio “classic” entry level digital coax cable to the Orchid and the Silnote Audio entry level RCA to balanced XLR cables). I must say it was a huge upgrade. The Node DAC sounded ok, but compared to the Orchid it is muddy, lacking dynamics across the board. In my experience the Orchid is better in every way and switching out the tube gives the sound a different flavor. I don’t see myself purposely ever going back to not having an external DAC with the Node2.

I have Denafrips Ares II  with the Node 2i.  I use a coax connect, and the Ares II is much better than the Node 2i DAC.

@painter24 

If you do ever find yourself curious again, I would strongly recommend giving a Schiit Gungnir Multibit a try.  My DAC experience is limited but I have had the Node2i for about 2 years.  I initially used it with the Audio Research GSi75 integrated that has a very well reviewed onboard DAC.  I was able to easily connect my analog RCA and a digital coax at the same time and go between inputs.  There was no comparison.  Then I traded for separates and got a Gungnir in the deal.  I now have Audio Research separates and the Gungnir sounds so good.  Schiit are reasonably priced and offer a 15 day trial.  I also like to buy used and you find them from time to time so keep that as an option.  

I have the Ares II, Pontus II, Gustard X26 Pro, Topping D70 and MHDT Orchid. The simple fact of the matter is that if you pay VERY careful attention each of these DACs sounds SLIGHTLY different but none of them is clearly better than the others on all types of music. People that claim dramatic differences either have bat ears or are letting the psycho part of psychoacoustics rule their judgement.

based on personal experience, i disagree, the difference in sound is quite discernable on a sufficiently high res system

a-b using a dena pontus 2 (os mode) versus mhdt orchid (unmodified, stock ge 5687 tube) -- i can (and did) pick out a vs b each time on blind a-b test, on my system... (we used my ava abx comparator on blind test mode, volume matched) - dena has immediately noticeably more forward, fine grain treble, wider soundstage, stronger deep bass vs mhdt more recessed treble, narrower but deeper stage, grainless treble and mids, slower but fatter midbass weaker deep bass

bluesound node 2i streamer into dacs using rca spdif -- into hegel h390 driving proac d30rs speakers

I have the Ares II, Pontus II, Gustard X26 Pro, Topping D70 and MHDT Orchid.  The simple fact of the matter is that if you pay VERY careful attention each of these DACs sounds SLIGHTLY different but none of them is clearly better than the others on all types of music.  People that claim dramatic differences either have bat ears or are letting the psycho part of psychoacoustics rule their judgement.

Finally a focused, constructive, well-mannered thread!  Have been using Node 2i for a year with Tidal Connect into Hegel H95 (Coax) and Klipsch Forte II.  Am waiting on delivery of new Verity speakers and shopping for new amp.  After my own critical listening I was convinced built-in Hegel DAC was better SQ than the Node, but may have to rethink.  Hard not to be influenced by the on-line naysayers about Node DAC quality. 

I anticipate sticking with Node streaming since I like Tidal Connect feature and have been happy with SQ, but we always think we might do better.  Looking at Benchmark or Luxman amps, and external DAC, including RME, Benchmark and Pontus.  

 

@riccitone "Also happy you you’ve added a Rel t5/x to good effect. Was considering one of those for my own next purchase."

I feel supplementing the LFs on the Quads opens up another dimension in how you listen to your music. For all the Quads pleasing qualities, I really couldn't have comprehended how much I was missing until I added the sub; when I did it was quite revelatory.

Back on the Node again; I'm using its "sub out", and it's sub crossover settings at 80hz. This has relieved my amp, and the Quads of all duties at 80hz and below, and it frees up the Quads to do what they do best as small form stand mounts. They sound much more effortless and relaxed in their presentation without being fed all those LFs <80hz, and struggling to reproduce them. 

Glad you let your ears do the thinking instead of basing your decision on specs or other peoples reviews. 

The BS Node device isn't that good compared to other streamers/especially DACs that are out there on the market. For the same $$$, I picked the Auralic Aries mini instead, plus the DS lightning software is fantastic, only Roon beats it. For background music, I like the Aries Mini. I used to own the AURALiC Aries and blew away the Aries Mini but it was 3x the price. 

I also use Apple TV's as Roon endpoints for background music. For dedicated music room listening, I would never use any of these products.

@fuzztone 

 

+1 ... 

@jaudio1 

Perhaps your unaware that the Bluesound Node does not have USB out.  Only SPDIF and Toslink.  Connecting to the Ares via USB is not possible.  

The Node current version is USB out capable.

@painter24 

 

Great thread. Excellent exchange of experiences and perceptions without almost any sweeping conclusions on all equipment cheap or grand. The kind of thread all can learn from.

It is a well established fact that the Node and Denafrips DAC connectivity via coax is sub-optimal. If you have the new Node model, USB is the way to go. If you have an older model ... well, either don't buy a Denafrips DAC or find another streamer.

@jaudio1 The Node 2i and older have no USB. The newest version NOde which the OP has DOES have a USB out. I am aware of this, because I own the latest version of the node and have tested the coax against the USB and it was a vast difference in sound quality when paired with a denefrips Pontus

@dtximages 

Audiophiles will always tell you what's most expensive, new, and interesting is "better".  Few of them are honest enough to admit they too can be deceived.  

Thank god you're here, then.

 

@wlutke My mistake! Thanks for the correction -- and the suggestion.

My experience was different than yours but my upgrade delta was much larger and I was dealing with the Node 2. I upgraded to the Mytek Manhattan DAC and the result was night and day difference BUT the Mytek cost ~10x what the Node cost. I was happy with the Node before I got the Mytek but won’t ever be going back. I have no experience with the new Node version and wouldn’t be surprised if it is much improved over what I have. I totally agree with all the others that say let your ears decide. 
 

Matt

I have had a Node2i for a few years and have a/b’d the internal DAC vs Schiit Modi Muiltibit, Rotel RDD-1580 and Krell SBP-64x (well over 25 years old).  The Krell is the only DAC that I can honestly say adds a significant sonic difference.  I felt that the Schiit and Rotel were very similar to the Node.   The Modi was a little more forward with the soundstage and the Rotel set the stage several feet back.  In my opinion, the Krell sets the stage and PRAT just right for me  I can’t use the Krell for all streamers (NAD CI580) because of it’s age but it works very well with the Node 2i.  I will be holding onto the Krell as long as I can.  
 

 

I went through the same experience.  I added a Project DAC to my Node 2i and it actually sounded thin.  The DAC inside the Node 2i actually sounded better.  However, I was upgrading my speaker cables and power cords and the sales person from The Cable Company thought we should add a power cable to the node 2i and connect it using digital cable to my ARCAM AVR 550.  He told me a $550 BlueSound can't have the quality of DAC as compared to using the DAC in my ARCAM.  I told him I was not anxious to give up MQA Tidal offers and he said going digital will sound better.  He also told me MQA is way over rated and was perhaps just a marketing tool to attract audiophiles to Tidal.  I am still not sure I hear much of a difference.  However, I have been using a digital connection for months now and have not done another AB comparison.

I would also imagine the Project DAC at its price point may not have been the right choice.  Seems like most DAC's start at $1,500.  I wonder if I were to use a better external DAC if I would be able to hear an improvement in sound quality.  Adding a pair of Synergistic Research Level One Atmosphere speaker cable was probably the biggest upgrade.  I now can hear greater detail in the higher frequencies.  Perhaps adding a Luxman 509 amp might also be the next step to upgrading quality for 2 channel listening.  I have a source where I can purchase the Luxman for $7,000 compared to full retail of $10,000.  

Audiophiles will always tell you what's most expensive, new, and interesting is "better".  Few of them are honest enough to admit they too can be deceived.  

A very significant portion of the population also think Kim Kardashian is hot because they only look at her published face and deny that very large caboose in the back.    

I’ve had a refurbished Node 2i for 2 years. I added a Topping D90 and liked it. I also use COAX. A couple other improvements I made:

Make sure volume is set to fixed or max on both Node and DAC and use your preamp for volume control..

I added the PD Creative power supply to my node 2i. I felt this was a really worthwhile $132. His better one only came in 230V. Mine came with a Meanwell switching power supply which is supposed to be pretty good. The improvements in fine detail, bass and soundstaging are worthwhile.  I have not looked into a linear power supply. Teddy Pardo version is higher but comes with an LPS.

Add an aftermarket cord to your Node.

With streaming it seems the more EFI and RMI you get rid of the better it sounds. Lots of debate about optical vs coax vs USB. Lots of debate about R2R vs DS.. Switches, ENO, EtherREGEN are all supposed to clean up things but I haven’t tried them, yet.

Also, spend 25 on some springs for sub and see what you think.

 

I have the older Node 2i and an external DAC did make a  difference which I preferred.  I did choose a  DAC with MQA as the node2i will not do a complete unfold prior to sending the information out to the DAC. 

 

Happy combination. 

"I'm not saying I'll never look at DACs again, but right now, I'm ok👌😊"

 

How refreshing! An audiophile who says "Good enough!". Well done mate! IMHO this avocation of ours is very subjective. Sometimes it also means we don't stop to "smell the roses" in pursuit of some audio Nirvana.

Nice job on the equipment choice as well: Why have a box that you can't really perceive any improvement with when you could divert those resources to something that does? Again, well done!

 

Happy listening!

@jin78 

Perhaps your unaware that the Bluesound Node does not have USB out.  Only SPDIF and Toslink.  Connecting to the Ares via USB is not possible.  

 

hilde45,

FYI, The Sbooster replaced the Node’s external smps. It was not added to the Orchid.